Mythic Hero - Askr

[Ice Dragon]

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But bovine refers to a genus and not a species...though more accurate since Askr does look like a buffalo.

According to Wikipedia, "cow" is the most commonly used word in English for a single individual when sex is unknown or irrelevant. "Bovine" is used in Britain. "Ox" was historically used for this, but is nowadays generally only used for work animals (and other species with "ox" in the name).

I think "cow" is fine to refer to the species.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

According to Wikipedia, "cow" is the most commonly used word in English for a single individual when sex is unknown or irrelevant. "Bovine" is used in Britain. "Ox" was historically used for this, but is nowadays generally only used for work animals (and other species with "ox" in the name).

I think "cow" is fine to refer to the species.

I do not believe the British are commonly referring to cows as bovine. That's like calling dogs canines all the time.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I do not believe the British are commonly referring to cows as bovine. That's like calling dogs canines all the time.

We don't have that problem with "dogs" because it has a normal singular "dog", so there's no need to be creative for the singular. This is a uniquely bovine problem.

Also, I said nothing of how commonly the word "bovine" is used, just that it is. It's likely that, like where I grew up, "cow" is still the most common word for this for people that don't deal with cows on a daily basis.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

We don't have that problem with "dogs" because it has a normal singular "dog", so there's no need to be creative for the singular. This is a uniquely bovine problem.

This is also true with the word cow. And if you don't believe me, then I ask you what the term for a male dog is.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

This is also true with the word cow. And if you don't believe me, then I ask you what the term for a male dog is.

A "male dog". You can just use adjectives for that. You can't use an adjective to make "cattle" singular and are forced to use a different word altogether, which is not the same as for a male dog.

Also, a "good boy".

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[jameslove001]

The former editor in me is giggling about this thread. But I am also in the buffalo camp here.

[Mercakete]

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

According to Wikipedia, "cow" is the most commonly used word in English for a single individual when sex is unknown or irrelevant. "Bovine" is used in Britain. "Ox" was historically used for this, but is nowadays generally only used for work animals (and other species with "ox" in the name).

I think "cow" is fine to refer to the species.

There is such a thing as a common misconception. Just because "cow" is commonly used doesn't make it correct. Just thought that was worth mentioning. Otherwise, I'm enjoying seeing the perspectives here, and agree that "bovine" as a general term applies well for Askr. I mean, he's obviously not any real-world bull, but more of a general bovine-inspired creature.

[Ice Dragon]

30 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

There is such a thing as a common misconception. Just because "cow" is commonly used doesn't make it correct. Just thought that was worth mentioning. Otherwise, I'm enjoying seeing the perspectives here, and agree that "bovine" as a general term applies well for Askr. I mean, he's obviously not any real-world bull, but more of a general bovine-inspired creature.

No one using "cow" to refer to a sex-nonspecific cow is confusing a sex-nonspecific cow with a female cow. They're using it to refer to a sex-nonspecific cow because the English language lacks a word that standardly has that meaning, and people hearing it used in that way are unlikely to be confused by its usage. There is no misconception happening here.

[Mercakete]

51 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

No one using "cow" to refer to a sex-nonspecific cow is confusing a sex-nonspecific cow with a female cow. They're using it to refer to a sex-nonspecific cow because the English language lacks a word that standardly has that meaning, and people hearing it used in that way are unlikely to be confused by its usage. There is no misconception happening here.

The misconception to which I refer is that "cow" is the species name, when it refers to females specifically. Likewise, "cow" can refer to other species' females, such as manatees.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

The misconception to which I refer is that "cow" is the species name, when it refers to females specifically.

That's not a misconception. People don't use "cow" to refer to the name of the species because they think it's the name of the species. They use it to refer to the name of the species because there is no singular word for an individual of the species, and "cow" is likely to be understood to refer to what the speaker intended its usage to mean.

People who are fluent in English are generally well aware that "cow" usually refers to a female of the species, but they are also aware that the name of the species doesn't have a singular version. There is no misconception. There is a gap in the language, and we're filling it in with something that is widely understood to be understood.

(And children using the word mistakenly doesn't count because children use a lot of words mistakenly due to their lack of vocabulary or lack of understanding.)

 

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

Likewise, "cow" can refer to other species' females, such as manatees.

Yes. Words can have more than one meaning. That's why context is a thing.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

A "male dog". You can just use adjectives for that. You can't use an adjective to make "cattle" singular and are forced to use a different word altogether, which is not the same as for a male dog.

Also, a "good boy".

Likewise for a female cow. Cows and dogs are both animals with a gender specific term, bitch and bull, and a general term that refers both to one gender and also the species, cow and dog. Both are also part of suborders,  canines and bovines that includes other such animals, foxes and wolves in canine's case and buffalo and aurochs in bovine's case. Aside from a gender swap, cows and dogs are in the same proverbial boat.

[Othin]

From what I understand, manatees as a whole are often called "sea cows", not just female manatees.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Likewise for a female cow. Cows and dogs are both animals with a gender specific term, bitch and bull, and a general term that refers both to one gender and also the species, cow and dog. Both are also part of suborders,  canines and bovines that includes other such animals, foxes and wolves in canine's case and buffalo and aurochs in bovine's case. Aside from a gender swap, cows and dogs are in the same proverbial boat.

That doesn't exclude the use of the word "bovine" to refer to the species. As I previously said, words can have multiple meanings.

Case in point, as I also previously said, the word "ox" is used primarily to refer to cattle used for work, but also to any of the several species with "ox" in its name. There is nothing preventing the word "bovine" from being used to refer to either Bovinae or Bos taurus.

The difference between cows and dogs is the fact that people actually do use "bovine" to refer specifically to Bos taurus because there isn't a universally accepted singular name of the species in English (again, "cow" is the most used term, but isn't universal), whereas people don't use "canine" to refer specifically to Canis lupus familiaris because the universally accepted word for the species in English is "dog".

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That doesn't exclude the use of the word "bovine" to refer to the species. As I previously said, words can have multiple meanings.

Case in point, as I also previously said, the word "ox" is used primarily to refer to cattle used for work, but also to any of the several species with "ox" in its name. There is nothing preventing the word "bovine" from being used to refer to either Bovinae or Bos taurus.

The difference between cows and dogs is the fact that people actually do use "bovine" to refer specifically to Bos taurus because there isn't a universally accepted singular name of the species in English (again, "cow" is the most used term, but isn't universal), whereas people don't use "canine" to refer specifically to Canis lupus familiaris because the universally accepted word for the species in English is "dog".

But you're just declaring one word as universally accepted and the other as not. Cow is universally accepted. Every English speaker will know what you mean if you say cow, unless you happen to be talking about whales or something. It's at least as universally accepted as the word dog. Because people do use canine to refer to dogs. Like the canine dog and rescue (try bringing then a wild jackals and see how they react, they'll do their best if it's injured, but it's a place for dogs). Doesn't mean dog isn't universal though.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Cow is universally accepted.

The fact that there is disagreement in this thread shows that it isn't.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Because people do use canine to refer to dogs. Like the canine dog and rescue (try bringing then a wild jackals and see how they react, they'll do their best if it's injured, but it's a place for dogs). Doesn't mean dog isn't universal though.

No one says "I'm going out to walk the canine." People will look at you funny because people don't use "canine" to refer to dogs in regular speech, even though it can be used to do so.

Kind of like how people normally refer to throwing something out the window as "throwing something out the window" and not as "defenestrating something" unless they just learned the word "defenestrate" or are trying to sound cool by using big words.

"Canine" is more commonly used to refer to dogs in particular as an adjective (probably because "doggy" isn't appropriate for serious contexts). As a noun, it's generally not used to refer to dogs in particular in regular speech and is typically only used in certain higher levels of diction (such as in the naming of organizations, products, etc. or for PR-related purposes like marketing).

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The fact that there is disagreement in this thread shows that it isn't.

 

No one says "I'm going out to walk the canine." People will look at you funny because people don't use "canine" to refer to dogs in regular speech, even though it can be used to do so.

Kind of like how people normally refer to throwing something out the window as "throwing something out the window" and not as "defenestrating something" unless they just learned the word "defenestrate" or are trying to sound cool by using big words.

"Canine" is more commonly used to refer to dogs in particular as an adjective (probably because "doggy" isn't appropriate for serious contexts). As a noun, it's generally not used to refer to dogs in particular in regular speech and is typically only used in certain higher levels of diction (such as in the naming of organizations, products, etc. or for PR-related purposes like marketing).

No one is going to say I'm going out to slaughter the bovine either.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No one is going to say I'm going out to slaughter the bovine either.

I'd assume a farmer would not have use for a sex-nonspecific word for a cow.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Ice Dragon

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'd assume a farmer would not have use for a sex-nonspecific word for a cow.

But they do use sex-nonspecific word for cow. But they don't use bovine, they use cattle.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

But they do use sex-nonspecific word for cow. But they don't use bovine, they use cattle.

"Cattle" is not singular.

[Rinco]

We should just call them Moomoo

[Ice Dragon]

53 minutes ago, Rinco said:

We should just call them Moomoo

I was originally going to suggest we just call it a "beef". Apparently, the word even has a standard plural "beeves" that exists, but doesn't see much use, and this would give it more usage.

[Jotari]

17 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Cattle" is not singular.

Hence what I said in my first comment on this discussion. That being said

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle#:~:text=Cattle (Bos taurus) are large,Cattle

It is the actual name of the animal, but I won't call it that because the word cow exists and is universally accepted.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I was originally going to suggest we just call it a "beef". Apparently, the word even has a standard plural "beeves" that exists, but doesn't see much use, and this would give it more usage.

Beef, or rather beof is what they were called in Old French. Generally speaking animal words cone from German while their food terms cone from French. Which is one of those things that seems culturally appropriate.

[Ice Dragon]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

It is the actual name of the animal, but I won't call it that because the word cow exists and is universally accepted.

I'm very aware that it's the actual name of the animal, but this entire argument is because people in this thread cannot agree on a singular name for the animal, so you suggesting "cattle", which is not singular, is absolutely pointless. And the fact that people in this thread cannot agree on a singular name for the animal shows that "cow" is not universally accepted.

If "cow" were universally accepted, then Wikipedia would almost certainly use "cow" as the name of the page instead of redirecting "cow" to "cattle". This is the only Wikipedia page for an animal that uses a plural word for the name of the page. The Wikipedia page itself highlights this:

Quote

...otherwise no universally used single-word singular form of cattle exists in modern English, other than the sex- and age-specific terms such as cow, bull, steer and heifer.

...

Cow is in general use as a singular for the collective cattle.

...

Merriam-Webster and Oxford Living Dictionaries recognize the sex-nonspecific use of cow as an alternate definition, whereas Collins and the OED do not.

 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Beef, or rather beof is what they were called in Old French. Generally speaking animal words cone from German while their food terms cone from French. Which is one of those things that seems culturally appropriate.

Yes, I know. I'm quite aware of the etymology of the names of food animals and their meat in English. The names of animals come from Anglo-Saxon, which was the language of the peasantry that raised the animals, whereas the names of meats come from Norman, which was the language of the nobility that typically had no contact with the live animals.

[Diovani Bressan]

After reading all the random discussion that happened above, I understand why the Kingdom of Askr call them "dragons".

Edited July 29, 2022 by Diovani Bressan

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

After reading all the random discussion that happened above, I understand why the Kingdom of Askr call them "dragons".

Behold, a dragon!

Edited July 29, 2022 by Othin