The more I'm exposed to Monica the more I understand why Edelgard let her die in the original timeline

[Jotari]

I was kind if interested to see what Monica would be like as a character....But these Tharja types are no better when they're simping after someone who isn't the avatar.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Jotari

[Fabulously Olivier]

She's just Hubert with less personality, lol.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Dark Holy Elf]

I like Monica pretty well overall. She's not the deepest, but she's funny, and I like the simping personality being contrasted with her clever and tactical mind. (I also personally find characters "simping" over someone besides the avatar to be dramatically less annoying, myself, because it doesn't feel like player pandering.) Wish she had more supports but what we got was pretty good - the ones with Dorothea and Hubert in particular are favourites of mine.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Imagine dying in high school and someone takes your face and name and does that with it. Rest in peace, actual Monica. What do you think her skill specialties were? Was she a mage? Pegasus knight? The only female student in Garreg Mach history to have a brawling proficiency and held rallies to un-gender lock the brawler classline?

[ZanaLyrander]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Imagine dying in high school and someone takes your face and name and does that with it. Rest in peace, actual Monica. What do you think her skill specialties were? Was she a mage? Pegasus knight? The only female student in Garreg Mach history to have a brawling proficiency and held rallies to un-gender lock the brawler classline?

I mean, she's pretty clearly a mage in Three Hopes. And she has an innate ability keyed to Trickster, so she'd probably have sword proficiency too, maybe a hidden talent for it.

[Archeleon]

Monica is alright.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Orson would like to have a word with Edelgard.

[Jotari]

I'm also slightly miffed they gave Monica a crest. I do get that they wanted someone to have the crest of Macuil, but it kind if makes the appearance if her father in Three Houses a bit more inexplicable. Because the whole point of him was trying to use a sacred relic without a crest. And yeah, yeah, crests can skip generations and stiff, but everyone in the chapter is like sure he can't use it. How do they know that if he comes from a family that historically has a crest. Is Balthus a crest scholar in his free time and has encyclaoedic knowledge of who does and doesn't have a crest?

[B.Leu]

I do have to agree, I'm not a huge fan of the yandere type. She is a major simp, and okay, it was a bit funny at first, but it overstayed it's welcome really fast when she goes too far. Her stalking habits made me cringe.

And then, you realize that Kronya didn't have to pretend much in her skin, which is pretty funny. What's more funny is that Kronica wasn't annoying.

On 7/31/2022 at 12:54 PM, Jotari said:

I'm also slightly miffed they gave Monica a crest. I do get that they wanted someone to have the crest of Macuil, but it kind if makes the appearance if her father in Three Houses a bit more inexplicable. Because the whole point of him was trying to use a sacred relic without a crest. And yeah, yeah, crests can skip generations and stiff, but everyone in the chapter is like sure he can't use it. How do they know that if he comes from a family that historically has a crest. Is Balthus a crest scholar in his free time and has encyclaoedic knowledge of who does and doesn't have a crest?

Unreladed, but by themselves, having Tomes as Relics is weird story wise. I know they had to do it, because Tomes are weapons and all, but it's really really weird.
But I do get a kick out of the Agarthan essentially created two Necronomicon-like books.

Edited August 1, 2022 by B.Leu

[Dylan Corona]

I don't know, I don't hate her. She's okay in some instances. I can't help but to think if she was never kidnapped and didn't need saving that her personality would have a big difference. I feel like the only reason she is simping is cause the of saving (and the school shutting done, forcing her to go back to the empire and be the left hand? Since Herbert is the right haha).

Like I don't think she would have been like this before the kidnapping. I mean the fake Monica must have been somewhat close to her personality, just like how the fake Thomas was using his personality. And that Monica didn't fake act simping.

[ZanaLyrander]

7 minutes ago, Dylan Corona said:

I don't know, I don't hate her. She's okay in some instances. I can't help but to think if she was never kidnapped and didn't need saving that her personality would have a big difference. I feel like the only reason she is simping is cause the of saving (and the school shutting done, forcing her to go back to the empire and be the left hand? Since Herbert is the right haha).

Like I don't think she would have been like this before the kidnapping. I mean the fake Monica must have been somewhat close to her personality, just like how the fake Thomas was using his personality. And that Monica didn't fake act simping.

Well to be fair, a lot of people in the monastery were apparently commenting that fake Monica was acting like a completely different person. I think the implication is that Kronya isn't as good an actor as Solon was.

[Dylan Corona]

Just now, ZanaLyrander said:

Well to be fair, a lot of people in the monastery were apparently commenting that fake Monica was acting like a completely different person. I think the implication is that Kronya isn't as good an actor as Solon was.

True, she wasn't (she kept up the act in a shorter time span haha) but some of the base personalities must have been there. I mean she was different, but I feel like this game makes simping a defining trait, so if she was like that before Kronya would have at least simpped a little bit, at least during the Eagle route.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm also slightly miffed they gave Monica a crest. I do get that they wanted someone to have the crest of Macuil, but it kind if makes the appearance if her father in Three Houses a bit more inexplicable. Because the whole point of him was trying to use a sacred relic without a crest. And yeah, yeah, crests can skip generations and stiff, but everyone in the chapter is like sure he can't use it. How do they know that if he comes from a family that historically has a crest. Is Balthus a crest scholar in his free time and has encyclaoedic knowledge of who does and doesn't have a crest?

A noble family as important as Ochs would almost surely have Crests in their family history. We know from the behaviour of Dorothea's father, Hanneman's brother-in-law, Mercedes's adopted father, etc., that Crests are huge for establishing the legitimacy of a noble line. Intermarriage between the nobility also means that we should expect Crests to show up in random nobles, so even if somehow the Ochs line was famous for not having a Crest, Monica herself could easily have one via someone who married into the family (her mother, her grandparents, etc.).

I do agree that Balthus probably shouldn't have the knowledge that Baron Ochs is crestless off the top of his head but I feel like that line was put in there for the player's sake. Though it's not impossible it was something he discovered while investigating the black market scheme; I don't recall all the details of that off the top of my head.

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Dylan Corona said:

I don't know, I don't hate her. She's okay in some instances. I can't help but to think if she was never kidnapped and didn't need saving that her personality would have a big difference. I feel like the only reason she is simping is cause the of saving (and the school shutting done, forcing her to go back to the empire and be the left hand? Since Herbert is the right haha).

Like I don't think she would have been like this before the kidnapping. I mean the fake Monica must have been somewhat close to her personality, just like how the fake Thomas was using his personality. And that Monica didn't fake act simping.

But she does still seem to have the same personality from what we see of her on routes where it isn't Edelgard who rescues her.

10 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

A noble family as important as Ochs would almost surely have Crests in their family history. We know from the behaviour of Dorothea's father, Hanneman's brother-in-law, Mercedes's adopted father, etc., that Crests are huge for establishing the legitimacy of a noble line. Intermarriage between the nobility also means that we should expect Crests to show up in random nobles, so even if somehow the Ochs line was famous for not having a Crest, Monica herself could easily have one via someone who married into the family (her mother, her grandparents, etc.).

I do agree that Balthus probably shouldn't have the knowledge that Baron Ochs is crestless off the top of his head but I feel like that line was put in there for the player's sake. Though it's not impossible it was something he discovered while investigating the black market scheme; I don't recall all the details of that off the top of my head.

Not as much in the empire as it was founded by the saints, but the elites, so there literally wasn't as many crests to go around. There are important nobles without crests. Hubert, for example, doesn't have a crest and I don't think we ever see his relations in gameplay showing off crests nor is there any mention of him being a disappointment for lacking one. And his family is powerful enough to have been involved in the insurrection of the seven. So a random house like Ochs could easily have been crestless. There's only five crests of the saints to go around (plus those four apostles or whatever crests the Ashen demons have that were added later, but all of their families have been more or less eliminated because it was made after the main story) and dozens upon dozens of noble houses in the empire.

That being said Macuil's crest was weirdly absent in Three Houses outside of the wind called himself, so I feel itely get why they wanted to add it. I just think it takes away from Baron Och's appearance in Three Houses a bit (and I actually rather like him, though the chapter itself sucks).

[Dark Holy Elf]

33 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not as much in the empire as it was founded by the saints, but the elites, so there literally wasn't as many crests to go around.

I mean it's not a case of one family, one crest, and it never was (because the Saints gave their Crests to multiple people during the War). Both Bernadetta von Varley and Hanneman von Essar have Indech. Both Leopold von Bergliez and Ferdinand von Aegir have Cichol. Linhardt explicitly notes that the Crest of Cethleann is "not rare" (i.e. not just his family). The Crests of the four Saints have clearly spread around all the noble houses of the Empire, which if you think about it, makes perfect genetic sense. They've been intermarrying for literally centuries at this point, and Crests don't follow patrilineal family lines.

The Vestra family is an extremely unusual case since they have no land; their position is one entirely based on their close connection with the Hresvelgs. Crests might not be as important to them as the other houses, as such. That said, we have no evidence of whether Hubert's parents and sibilngs have, or don't have, Crests.

46 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So a random house like Ochs could easily have been crestless.

It's... not impossible, but I would consider it unlikely for the above reasons. Regardless, even if you disagree with me, you shouldn't be surprised that Monica would have a Crest; genetically, there are a multitude of ways that can happen.

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I mean it's not a case of one family, one crest, and it never was (because the Saints gave their Crests to multiple people during the War). Both Bernadetta von Varley and Hanneman von Essar have Indech. Both Leopold von Bergliez and Ferdinand von Aegir have Cichol. Linhardt explicitly notes that the Crest of Cethleann is "not rare" (i.e. not just his family). The Crests of the four Saints have clearly spread around all the noble houses of the Empire, which if you think about it, makes perfect genetic sense. They've been intermarrying for literally centuries at this point, and Crests don't follow patrilineal family lines.

The Vestra family is an extremely unusual case since they have no land; their position is one entirely based on their close connection with the Hresvelgs. Crests might not be as important to them as the other houses, as such. That said, we have no evidence of whether Hubert's parents and sibilngs have, or don't have, Crests.

It's... not impossible, but I would consider it unlikely for the above reasons. Regardless, even if you disagree with me, you shouldn't be surprised that Monica would have a Crest; genetically, there are a multitude of ways that can happen.

Oh I'm not surprised, like I said I understand why it is as it is. I'm disappointed, because I feel it takes away from a previous plot point I liked. Macuil not having any bearers while not being good for gameplay also made some degree of sense as he kind of hated humans.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Jotari

[Dark Holy Elf]

Macuil was one of the saints; he fought beside humans in the war. He might dislike humans, but as the old saying goes, you don't have to like someone in order to give them some of your blood to turn them into a supersoldier who is better able to slay your enemies. Or something like that.

[Jotari]

Another way they could have handled it was crest experimentation, as Monica was in the clutches of the Agarthans for some time. Crests disappearing from families is a thing as well. So she could have been the defendant of a historical crest family that list it's crest, like Daphnel, that they were seeking to reawaken.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Jotari

[Seazas]

Edelgard wouldn't let a potential asset die for such petty reasoning. She'd only do so if it threatens her future which it very much did in 3H. I'm okay with Monica overall and objectively, she's an upgrade from what we got before. She's more ignorable than Fake Monica bringing one of the worst plot points in Fire Emblem.

On 7/31/2022 at 5:19 PM, Jotari said:

But she does still seem to have the same personality from what we see of her on routes where it isn't Edelgard who rescues her.

Nope. We see Edelgard talking to Jeritza in all routes right before the mission. She orchestrated Monica's survival no matter what and Monica herself made clear in El's support that she fell in love only because of Edelgard saving her. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Seazas

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Edelgard wouldn't let a potential asset die for such petty reasoning. She'd only do so if it threatens her future which it very much did in 3H. I'm okay with Monica overall and objectively, she's an upgrade from what we got before. She's more ignorable than Fake Monica bringing one of the worst plot points in Fire Emblem.

That's a bit weird to say. For one there is "nothing we got before". Because Monica isn't in Three Houses. Its a comparison between the existence of something and the existence of nothing. That's also not objective as someone could feel the existence of something in a story is not conductive to the story's quality and thus nothing would be better (that's not bow I personally feel about Monica in Three Hopes, but if someone does feel that way it's a perfectly valid subjective opinion).

20 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Nope. We see Edelgard talking to Jeritza in all routes right before the mission. She orchestrated Monica's survival no matter what and Monica herself made clear in El's support that she fell in love only because of Edelgard saving her. 

Why she'd did not then?  One would think the addition if Shez is what altered the timeline but that makes it more like it was just plain Edelgard's mood. Or I guess Kostas dying in the prologue instead of escaping.

Maybe there's a deeper reason than that. I haven't played the secret route yet. If so spoiler tag any response as I want to go in blind.

[ZanaLyrander]

Honestly, I think my only problem with Monica is that she feels a bit redundant in the Black Eagles at times. The Black Eagles already had Hubert, Dorothea, and Lindhart as dedicated mages. Compare that to the Blue Lions or Golden Deer, who had only Mercedes and Annette or Lysithea and Marianne as pure mages. The other two houses had other units such as Ingrid, Sylvain, or Lorenz who could become very skilled with magic, but they were more like hybrid units who could do magic or physical combat as needed. Adding a fourth dedicated mage to the Black Eagles feels like overkill to me.

Still, I don't mind Monica as a character, I just wish she had more interactions with the other Black Eagles, her list of supports with her classmates is fairly lacking compared to most of the other Black Eagles.

[Seazas]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's a bit weird to say. For one there is "nothing we got before". Because Monica isn't in Three Houses. Its a comparison between the existence of something and the existence of nothing. That's also not objective as someone could feel the existence of something in a story is not conductive to the story's quality and thus nothing would be better (that's not bow I personally feel about Monica in Three Hopes, but if someone does feel that way it's a perfectly valid subjective opinion).

Why she'd did not then?  One would think the addition if Shez is what altered the timeline but that makes it more like it was just plain Edelgard's mood. Or I guess Kostas dying in the prologue instead of escaping.

Maybe there's a deeper reason than that. I haven't played the secret route yet. If so spoiler tag any response as I want to go in blind.

Not exactly. Monica is in Three Houses, just in the form of the Kronya plotpoint and her being used as a disguise. The disguised Monica and Kronya bit got replaced with the real Monica. And it's an upgrade since she's actually pretty solid and alright in the main story. 

She didn't because her plans didn't work the same way they did in Three Hopes. Jeritza, a spy of the Empire, got to be a professor, Kostas was slain allowing the bandits to retreat to the secret hideout, and Monica was still alive in that moment. Edelgard herself highlights it as a miracle that everything was gathered there at once for Edelgard to have a chance to save Monica. 

[ZanaLyrander]

23 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Not exactly. Monica is in Three Houses, just in the form of the Kronya plotpoint and her being used as a disguise. The disguised Monica and Kronya bit got replaced with the real Monica. And it's an upgrade since she's actually pretty solid and alright in the main story. 

She didn't because her plans didn't work the same way they did in Three Hopes. Jeritza, a spy of the Empire, got to be a professor, Kostas was slain allowing the bandits to retreat to the secret hideout, and Monica was still alive in that moment. Edelgard herself highlights it as a miracle that everything was gathered there at once for Edelgard to have a chance to save Monica. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head: she had the perfect excuse, pursuing the bandits who just happened to be retreating to the very location where Monica was being held. She had an opportunity to save Monica without tipping her hand to Those Who Slither In The Dark, who at that point still believed she was their ally. And with Jeritza as a professor, she could bring the entire class in to back her up in rescuing Monica without having to reveal her own connection to TWSITD. It really was just a case that all the pieces lined up perfectly. Had the bandits retreated elsewhere, she couldn't have taken action to rescue Monica without immediately making an enemy of Thales and the rest. But things just happened to work out so she could do so and still retain the element of surprise when she turned on TWSITD.

Edited August 4, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Dark Holy Elf]

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

Why she'd did not then?  One would think the addition if Shez is what altered the timeline but that makes it more like it was just plain Edelgard's mood. Or I guess Kostas dying in the prologue instead of escaping.

Echoing what others said, but for particular emphasis: Jeritza being made a professor is particularly important, since he's able to "lead" his class to the place Monica is being held even though the trail has run cold (even if he had to come up with that ridiculous excuse to "follow the blood-scent" which legit made me laugh).

 

3 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Honestly, I think my only problem with Monica is that she feels a bit redundant in the Black Eagles at times. The Black Eagles already had Hubert, Dorothea, and Lindhart as dedicated mages. Compare that to the Blue Lions or Golden Deer, who had only Mercedes and Annette or Lysithea and Marianne as pure mages. The other two houses had other units such as Ingrid, Sylvain, or Lorenz who could become very skilled with magic, but they were more like hybrid units who could do magic or physical combat as needed. Adding a fourth dedicated mage to the Black Eagles feels like overkill to me.

Still, I don't mind Monica as a character, I just wish she had more interactions with the other Black Eagles, her list of supports with her classmates is fairly lacking compared to most of the other Black Eagles.

Not only this, but literally the first two recruits the Eagles get are Constance and Hapi. Six mages by the end of chapter 4! I'd probably have made Monica a different class by default, but I guess they wanted to give her the Crest of Macuil which was already established as a "mage" Crest.

And yeah, most everyone who isn't one of the original 24 students or Shez (or the Wolves, to a lesser extent) has a pretty shallow support list. As a new character, Monica is arguably hurt by this the most, along with Holst. I did like the Monica supports we did get and she did have some main story presence which helped.

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

And yeah, most everyone who isn't one of the original 24 students or Shez (or the Wolves, to a lesser extent) has a pretty shallow support list. As a new character, Monica is arguably hurt by this the most, along with Holst. I did like the Monica supports we did get and she did have some main story presence which helped.

It feels more bothersome with Monica than most of the other newly playable characters. Like, Rodrigue and to a lesser extent Holst are older, they probably don't have as much in common with the students, it's not as much of a surprise that they have fewer supports. But Monica, in theory, is in the same situation as the rest of the Black Eagles, and she joins the Black Eagles after their first mission, it's not like they know each other much better than they know her at this point, she's spent about as much time with them as they've spent with each other.