Commoner Lords vs Noble Lords

[Jotari]

A subject that pops up every now and then is which lords in the series are commoners and which are nobles, with the common belief being that Ike is the only lord that is a commoner. However, I think if you look at the facts this is untrue.

To start off, commoners and nobles is a bullshit concept. We're all from post feudal societies and I think we can acknowledge that. Fire Emblem isn't, so the distinction matters to the characters in the games, but it's a distinction that doesn't exist. "Noble blood" and "Common blood" are the same thing, give or take some blood transfusions from dragons giving literal super powers (and even those rules are notoriously inconsistent). Whether someone is noble or not is based on up bringing. If it turns out Roy had secretly been swapped with a commoner in some kind of prince and the pauper plot it wouldn't actually make him any less noble in a sense that isn't entrenched in centuries old prejudice (and before anyone brings up the Sword of Seals, Roy gets that for being Roy, not for being a noble). This is something that is actually demonstrated in Ike's own game wherein he gains a lord ship and becomes a part of the nobility despite his apparent lack of noble birth.

But even then, Ike does have Noble Blood. Gawain was one of the four riders of Daein and a knight. This is something the game tells us is a position a commoner simply would not be able to reach before Ashnard changed the way Daein works and allowed people like Petrine to climb the social ladder. So arguing Ike isn't a noble from a nature angle doesn't work. The other angle is a nurture angle, as I said, being noble is about how one is raised (which basically means being rich and educated). And in that case we have four lords in the series who were raised as commoners. They are Alm, Ike, Micaiah and Byleth.

Alm is the first but people usually discount him on the grounds that he is revealed to be secretly Rudolf's son and a prince. But he was not raised to be a noble, he didn't even know Mycen was a knight. He is very much one of the Ram Village gang. Even the winning of his throne is more by fulfillling RIgelian ideals and becoming the conquerer than his heritage Gaiden even  says Rudolf made his plan to find heroes in general and not specifically Alm. The remake complicates this a bit by generally being a bit of a mess in its theming by making Alm literally special with the whole brand and the other Ram Kids having an intuitive feeling for his protagonist status, but even then the game makes clear that Alm is willing to plough the fields with his friends and sees no different in station. There's also a marked contrast between Celica, who grows up knowing who she is, and Alm, who doesn't.

Ike is actually in a funny situation in that he actually does live as a noble. It's just unacknowledged. Greil calls himself a mercenary but he really set himself up as an unofficial lord in Crimea. In the sense that he has a castle of his own, protects the surrounding peasants and receives money from them in return. It's really quite different from the lifestyle of a mercenary we see from the likes of Byleth. Ike even has a personal Regal Sword (possibly a callback to Alm, they both have the Swordlocked Hero class too) and inherits his position from his father upon Greil's death. But that's really just a funny way of IS using their bag of tropes to set up a familiar story.

Micaiah is the one most frequently overlook which is a bit funny as she comes from the same continuity as Ike. And of all of them she's lived the roughest life, being essentially homeless. Ike, Alm and Byleth were all raised by parental figures that were secret of noble birth, but Micaiah was destitute her entire life. And while she is secretly the Apostle of Begnion, she never takes up that position, in the same way Ike never takes up any inheritance Greil might have been due before he fled.

Then there's Byleth who is basically Ike 2.0 in almost every regard. Though, like Ike, Jeralt was probably a noble too, though it's not as clear as he could have been a random foot soldier that Rhea saved, or even a common mercenary already back then (Sitri being a homunculus clone of a goddess is something way to bizarre to try to fit into any conventional perception of nobility imo). Course that's really watered down by Byleth also being Jesus.

Now, all that being said, I totally get it. I think objectively looking at the facts Ike is not the only commoner protagonist in the series. However, people feel like he is, and that makes perfect sense. The game does not at all highlight that Gawain must have been a noble, it's something that's deduced. And Micaiah, Alm and Byleth all have secret heritages that are way more important than Ike's. They're also meant to feel more special as individuals (mainly for the remake in Alm's case) with mystical powers and exclusive weapons, while Ike specifically doesn't have any blood bond to his magic sword and anyone could use it. Ike is not the only commoner lord in the series, but with the possible exception of Gaiden!Alm, he's the only lord we've really had that was designed to be and act like a commoner. Even Micaiah, who was essentially homeless her entire life acts and is seen like a literal messiah.

So yeah, if you say Ike is the only commoner lord, I'll disagree with you and bring up all these points (and I'm sure people will argue most of the points I've made), but I fully understand why you would think and feel that way. Because Ike is the only time the creators have ever gone out of their way to make the lord feel like that, and it was the first game in the series to take any kind of look at a commoner noble divide (aside from Cath and Roy's little convos).

Not mentioned here is Shez, as I haven't finished Three Hopes (though definitely raised as a commoner and feels like one and that's an outright impotant plot point in Edelgard's route), and Robin, who knows nothing about themself and aside from their heritage, we really don't know anything about how they were raised either.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

So the verdict is, there aren't any Commoner Lords. Even for the ones who are Commoners, the game chickens out and gives them a noble descent. We've never had a Lord that neither A) inhabits a traditional position in the nobility (i.e. "Lord" or "Prince"), nor B) receives their power and/or opportunity by merit of their birth.

Ike only gets to run the Greil Mercenaries because it was his father's job. Alm only heads the Deliverance as a grandson of the noble "Sir Mycen", and he only becomes King in the end as the son of Rudolf. Micaiah's powers, that make her an effective military and social figure, come from her special blood. Robin just gets their position thanks to Chrom's naive and trusting nature, but then we find out that they're the child of Validar - who is almost certainly a noble, since he becomes King of Plegia. Teach has the opportunity to stand out in battle, and as a leader, because they were born out of a mad science experiment.

[Jotari]

Oh yeah, I also meant to bring up Lyn, who hits some of the main tropes as Ike, only there it's framed more as cultural difference than class difference. Lyn is still the daughter of the chief of her tribe (which was probably the least warranted of all noble positions, though I guess even without that she'd still be noble from her other half).

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Alm is the first but people usually discount him on the grounds that he is revealed to be secretly Rudolf's son and a prince. But he was not raised to be a noble, he didn't even know Mycen was a knight. He is very much one of the Ram Village gang. Even the winning of his throne is more by fulfillling RIgelian ideals and becoming the conquerer than his heritage Gaiden even  says Rudolf made his plan to find heroes in general and not specifically Alm. The remake complicates this a bit by generally being a bit of a mess in its theming by making Alm literally special with the whole brand and the other Ram Kids having an intuitive feeling for his protagonist status, but even then the game makes clear that Alm is willing to plough the fields with his friends and sees no different in station. There's also a marked contrast between Celica, who grows up knowing who she is, and Alm, who doesn't.

Even if you ignore Alm's secret royal parentage, and his brand, and all of that stuff, Alm is still at least noble-adjacent. And honestly, not that dissimilar to Ike. Like Gawain, Mycen must have been at least minor nobility to become a high-ranking general prior to the Deliverance. And just as Gawain didn't tell his son about his past, Mycen didn't tell his adoptive grandson about his. And yes, Mycen actually does a hell of a lot better at actually living like a commoner than Greil does, but I would still argue that "Mycen's grandson" alone would be enough to make Alm not really a commoner.

And even if you discount Mycen's (potential) nobility, then there's also the part where his royal father arranged for him to be the ward of and receive personalised weapon training from one of the greatest knights of his generation. That's not something that just any random commoner gets. Right from the very start of the game, there's a separation between Alm and the rest of the Ram gang. He gets to start off in a promoted class while everyone else is still back in villager class (which is actually an advantage for them really since they can Dread Fighter loop, but shh).

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ike is actually in a funny situation in that he actually does live as a noble. It's just unacknowledged. Greil calls himself a mercenary but he really set himself up as an unofficial lord in Crimea. In the sense that he has a castle of his own, protects the surrounding peasants and receives money from them in return. It's really quite different from the lifestyle of a mercenary we see from the likes of Byleth. Ike even has a personal Regal Sword (possibly a callback to Alm, they both have the Swordlocked Hero class too) and inherits his position from his father upon Greil's death. But that's really just a funny way of IS using their bag of tropes to set up a familiar story.

Agree with all of this. And I'll add that it's only because he's the son of Gawain (and to a lesser extent, that he keeps company with Titania) that Caineghis even gives him the time of day. If it had been (for instance) Shinon who had been in charge of the Greil Mercs when they first entered Gallia, I can only imagine that Caineghis would have said, essentially "OK, good job getting the princess this far; we'll take it from here".

Byleth and Micaiah are very different. They probably have the best cases for being raised as commoners. Micaiah especially grew up with absolutely no rank or privilege of birth. Except that they both get literal magic powers as a result of their descent.

I'd agree that the four that you mention are the closest to being commoners, but none of them really qualify entirely.

Although. Radiant Dawn. Part 2 Chapter 1. For one glorious chapter, we get to play with Brom and Nephenee as our lords. Truly, the proper commoner lords that we all deserve. Joking aside, though, I actually would like to see a game with someone like Brom or Nephenee (or Donnel, or Mozu, etc.) as the main protagonist. Just some poor sod from the peasant class who gets dragged into things and has to struggle through as best they can.

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah, I also meant to bring up Lyn, who hits some of the main tropes as Ike, only there it's framed more as cultural difference than class difference. Lyn is still the daughter of the chief of her tribe (which was probably the least warranted of all noble positions, though I guess even without that she'd still be noble from her other half).

Question for anyone more familiar with Elibe lore than I am: is it ever stated if the position of chief is hereditary in the Sacae tribes? If the Lorca hadn't been wiped out, would Lyn have stood to take over the position when her father died, or would the next chief be appointed differently? Or does the question never come up?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Question for anyone more familiar with Elibe lore than I am: is it ever stated if the position of chief is hereditary in the Sacae tribes? If the Lorca hadn't been wiped out, would Lyn have stood to take over the position when her father died, or would the next chief be appointed differently? Or does the question never come up?

Closest I can think of is Shin's ending (or as he's now strangely called, Sin) says he becomes the new "Silver Wolf" even though Sue is Dayan's granddaughter. But Silver Wolf seems to be more the title of best warrior than the actual position of chief, and it's possible that Sue just didn't get any official authority because she's a woman so it passed to guy with the higher strength stat that the chief liked.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, I was actually thinking to bring up those points about Ike in the other thread, before it was mentioned this one would be made... and sure enough, they were brought up. So good to see it was seen by others.

Anyway...

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I actually would like to see a game with someone like Brom or Nephenee (or Donnel, or Mozu, etc.) as the main protagonist. Just some poor sod from the peasant class who gets dragged into things and has to struggle through as best they can.

Certainly, having a proper actual commoner as a protagonist could be interesting to see one day. Could always be inspired by Hideyoshi Toyotomi, showing it has happened in real life. He too was just a peasant footsoldier in the Oda army... at least until he began to climb through the ranks. But at least it'd be different.

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ike is actually in a funny situation in that he actually does live as a noble. It's just unacknowledged. Greil calls himself a mercenary but he really set himself up as an unofficial lord in Crimea. In the sense that he has a castle of his own, protects the surrounding peasants and receives money from them in return. It's really quite different from the lifestyle of a mercenary we see from the likes of Byleth. Ike even has a personal Regal Sword (possibly a callback to Alm, they both have the Swordlocked Hero class too) and inherits his position from his father upon Greil's death. But that's really just a funny way of IS using their bag of tropes to set up a familiar story.

So did everyone in the Middle Ages. The farmer's son inherited the farm, the blacksmith's son took on an apprenticeship and eventually took over the forge, etc. If you were the eldest child in the Middle Ages, most of the time you inherited whatever your parent was, and those who didn't usually were those who either lost their status or died before they could inherit. The difference is what the person inherits. Ike, as the eldest son of a mercenary leader, inherited a mercenary company. Not a rank, title, or piece of land: a mercenary company. Ike inheriting isn't indicative of nobility; it's indicative of him being the eldest son.

As for the sword, yes; it is called the 'regal sword', but the context is completely different. The regal sword in Path of Radiance is just a sword; it's Ike's first sword that isn't a hand-me-down. Greil had it made for Ike after Ike became a mercenary, and he has it given to Ike before Ike's mission to investigate the fall of the Crimean capital because it's the first mission where Ike's in charge and the first mission where Ike's likely to encounter soldiers rather than bandits.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

But even then, Ike does have Noble Blood. Gawain was one of the four riders of Daein and a knight. This is something the game tells us is a position a commoner simply would not be able to reach before Ashnard changed the way Daein works and allowed people like Petrine to climb the social ladder. So arguing Ike isn't a noble from a nature angle doesn't work. The other angle is a nurture angle, as I said, being noble is about how one is raised (which basically means being rich and educated). And in that case we have four lords in the series who were raised as commoners. They are Alm, Ike, Micaiah and Byleth.

Sure; his father was former nobility. Emphasis on "former". Gawain lost all his titles, rank and status when he fled Daein and become an outlaw. His blood was no longer 'noble blood' anymore, as there was nothing to claim from it. Micaiah has claim to the Begnion Empire, Alm has claim to the Rigelian Empire; Ike has nothing to claim, as he is not the son of a noble: he is the son of a fugitive who lived under an alias. The game even specifies that Ike was born in Gallia, i.e. after Gawain ceased being Gawain.

 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

So yeah, if you say Ike is the only commoner lord, I'll disagree with you and bring up all these points (and I'm sure people will argue most of the points I've made), but I fully understand why you would think and feel that way. Because Ike is the only time the creators have ever gone out of their way to make the lord feel like that, and it was the first game in the series to take any kind of look at a commoner noble divide (aside from Cath and Roy's little convos).

Thanks for at least understanding.

Honestly, I wouldn't say Ike is the only commoner lord, but he is the first.

 

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Agree with all of this. And I'll add that it's only because he's the son of Gawain (and to a lesser extent, that he keeps company with Titania) that Caineghis even gives him the time of day. If it had been (for instance) Shinon who had been in charge of the Greil Mercs when they first entered Gallia, I can only imagine that Caineghis would have said, essentially "OK, good job getting the princess this far; we'll take it from here".

Caineghis would not have done that, for multiple reasons:

1. Titania is an old friend as well; he would have wanted to see her.

2. The whole point of the meeting was to establish that Gallia cannot harbour Elincia as it would provide Daein further justification for war and they need to come up with a new plan.

[Acacia Sgt]

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

So did everyone in the Middle Ages. The farmer's son inherited the farm, the blacksmith's son took on an apprenticeship and eventually took over the forge, etc. If you were the eldest child in the Middle Ages, most of the time you inherited whatever your parent was, and those who didn't usually were those who either lost their status or died before they could inherit. The difference is what the person inherits. Ike, as the eldest son of a mercenary leader, inherited a mercenary company. Not a rank, title, or piece of land: a mercenary company. Ike inheriting isn't indicative of nobility; it's indicative of him being the eldest son.

Except it's not a family trade. Like you say, it's a mercenary company. Complete with owning property and assets. It's like in today's climate, a company CEO handing it over to their firstborn for being their firstborn and not out of their qualifications.

Even Ike himself rightly points out Titania should take command, due to her experience and ranking as Greil's deputy, but its shot down. No, Ike gets it because its his birthright to inherit the company. He should not inherit just for being his father's son, if we truly are trying to deviate from the right of blood. If he had continued his 'apprenticeship' under Titania and then gain command, perhaps after PoR or late in the game, that would've presented the message better.

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Sure; his father was former nobility. Emphasis on "former". Gawain lost all his titles, rank and status when he fled Daein and become an outlaw. His blood was no longer 'noble blood' anymore, as there was nothing to claim from it. Micaiah has claim to the Begnion Empire, Alm has claim to the Rigelian Empire; Ike has nothing to claim, as he is not the son of a noble: he is the son of a fugitive who lived under an alias. The game even specifies that Ike was born in Gallia, i.e. after Gawain ceased being Gawain.

Former or not, it still means Ike's origins aren't truly common. How many commoners can claim having a father like Greil? It still gave Ike benefits, like having a good teacher in his father, not unlike Mycen with Alm.

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks for at least understanding.

Honestly, I wouldn't say Ike is the only commoner lord, but he is the first.

I would say a mercerany company is still a step above commoner. Historically some were pseudo feudal lords, as payment could come as land instead of coin. And Greil Mercs do own a military fort. Not exactly common for, well, commoners.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

28 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

So did everyone in the Middle Ages. The farmer's son inherited the farm, the blacksmith's son took on an apprenticeship and eventually took over the forge, etc. If you were the eldest child in the Middle Ages, most of the time you inherited whatever your parent was, and those who didn't usually were those who either lost their status or died before they could inherit. The difference is what the person inherits. Ike, as the eldest son of a mercenary leader, inherited a mercenary company. Not a rank, title, or piece of land: a mercenary company. Ike inheriting isn't indicative of nobility; it's indicative of him being the eldest son.

One important question that I don't think the game ever clarifies: who owns the fortress, and surrounding lands, out of which the GMs operate? The quickest and easiest answer is "Greil", in which case, Ike also inherits real estate upon his father's death. But it's possible that it belongs to someone else in the company, or even an unseen and unmentioned noble whom the group is renting from.

Now, inheriting real estate doesn't necessarily indicate that someone is a noble. But in a Medieval feudal system, I don't believe very many "commoners" held legal ownership of the lands they lived and worked on.

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Even Ike himself rightly points out Titania should take command, due to her experience and ranking as Greil's deputy, but its shot down. No, Ike gets it because its his birthright to inherit the company. He should not inherit just for being his father's son, if we truly are trying to deviate from the right of blood. If he had continued his 'apprenticeship' under Titania and then gain command, perhaps after PoR or late in the game, that would've presented the message better.

Titania leading the Greil Mercenaries after Greil's death presents an interesting "What If?" scenario. Presumably, Gatrie and Shinon wouldn't have abandoned the company, making Chapter 8 feel a lot less hopeless. Would Titania have been the one representing Princess Elincia, and entreating Apostle Sanaki and the Senate? Would Elincia have granted a noble promotion to "Lady Titania", rather than "Lord Ike"? Would she make any choices differently from Ike? Lotta interesting possibilities there.

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Former or not, it still means Ike's origins aren't truly common. How many commoners can claim having a father like Greil? It still gave Ike benefits, like having a good teacher in his father, not unlike Mycen with Alm.

To push back slightly, those benefits only come at most indirectly from Greil's nobility as Gawain. Had the previous King of Daein allowed non-noble members of the knighthood, a hypothetical "Commoner Gawain" could've achieved the same combat and tactical prowess to that of his default self. Ike doesn't benefit from his father's fame in the way that Alm benefits from his "grandfather's" notoriety.

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

Agree with all of this. And I'll add that it's only because he's the son of Gawain (and to a lesser extent, that he keeps company with Titania) that Caineghis even gives him the time of day. If it had been (for instance) Shinon who had been in charge of the Greil Mercs when they first entered Gallia, I can only imagine that Caineghis would have said, essentially "OK, good job getting the princess this far; we'll take it from here".

If it'd been Shinon leading the Mercs after Greil's death, they never would have entered Gallia. He would've sold Elincia to the Daein Army for drinking money.

4 hours ago, lenticular said:

Although. Radiant Dawn. Part 2 Chapter 1. For one glorious chapter, we get to play with Brom and Nephenee as our lords. Truly, the proper commoner lords that we all deserve. Joking aside, though, I actually would like to see a game with someone like Brom or Nephenee (or Donnel, or Mozu, etc.) as the main protagonist. Just some poor sod from the peasant class who gets dragged into things and has to struggle through as best they can.

That would be cool to see. I think the series is just addicted to either A) making the protagonist explicit nobility or royalty, or else B) giving them a power that they were born with that makes them unique. Sometimes both.

[ping]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Except it's not a family trade. Like you say, it's a mercenary company. Complete with owning property and assets. It's like in today's climate, a company CEO handing it over to their firstborn for being their firstborn and not out of their qualifications.

Even Ike himself rightly points out Titania should take command, due to her experience and ranking as Greil's deputy, but its shot down. No, Ike gets it because its his birthright to inherit the company. He should not inherit just for being his father's son, if we truly are trying to deviate from the right of blood. If he had continued his 'apprenticeship' under Titania and then gain command, perhaps after PoR or late in the game, that would've presented the message better.

As a small addition to support this, Shinon and Gatrie leaving the company, and the former being reported to "explode" at the news, also shows that Ike inheriting Greil's leadership position wasn't taken for granted by everybody. Titania was informed beforehand, Soren seems to have assumed it (although he might be rather biased in favour of Ike), the bros accept it because they consider the group family.

One could argue that Greil thinks that Ike is incredibly talented at this whole "leadership" thingie and that he didn't set up Titania as a (at least) transitory leader because he didn't expect to bite the bullet so soon, I guess. But the point still stands that Ike becomes the group's leader because his dad wills it so, and wills it so without Ike having done anything to deserve that merit.

--

I think it should be mentioned that the idea that the main lord is "of special blood" has been established in the series since the very first game. Marthipan is the only person capable of wielding Falchion. Plus, only his sister (extended to some additional princesses in the remakes) can use the Aum staff, reinforcing the point that there's something innately exceptional about any royal. I have no reason to doubt OP that Alm has only really gained his super-mega-specialness in Echoes, but then Geneology comes and brings back the "nobles are of special blood" trope back with force.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Except it's not a family trade. Like you say, it's a mercenary company. Complete with owning property and assets. It's like in today's climate, a company CEO handing it over to their firstborn for being their firstborn and not out of their qualifications.

Even Ike himself rightly points out Titania should take command, due to her experience and ranking as Greil's deputy, but its shot down. No, Ike gets it because its his birthright to inherit the company. He should not inherit just for being his father's son, if we truly are trying to deviate from the right of blood. If he had continued his 'apprenticeship' under Titania and then gain command, perhaps after PoR or late in the game, that would've presented the message better.

Former or not, it still means Ike's origins aren't truly common. How many commoners can claim having a father like Greil? It still gave Ike benefits, like having a good teacher in his father, not unlike Mycen with Alm.

I would say a mercerany company is still a step above commoner. Historically some were pseudo feudal lords, as payment could come as land instead of coin. And Greil Mercs do own a military fort. Not exactly common for, well, commoners.

Fair enough; I'm just saying that the assumption that the eldest will inherit was by no means unique to nobility; everybody had that assumption in the middle ages.

The only thing Ike gets from being the son of Greil is being the son of a highly-skilled swordsman; as @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate pointed out, those benefits don't directly come from Greil having been a noble. Besides, in a way, being the son of Greil is socially worse than being the son of a random peasant because of Greil's status as a fugitive: outlaws had zero legal rights or privileges and it was not a crime to kill them. Of course, we're talking about a fantasy setting that could have different rules regarding outlaws, but the fact remains that Greil being a wanted man with an assumed identity gave Ike real societal costs.

We don't know if they own the land the fort sits on. Owning the home without owning the land was far more prevalent in the middle ages, and it's never stated that the land itself is there's; only the fort.

 

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Now, inheriting real estate doesn't necessarily indicate that someone is a noble. But in a Medieval feudal system, I don't believe very many "commoners" held legal ownership of the lands they lived and worked on.

They generally did not. However, there's a big difference between owning the home and owning the land (not so much in today's society, but definitely so in the middle ages); peasants and commoners owned homes without owning the land on which those homes sat. The Greil Mercenaries, similarly, could easily own the fort without owning the land.

 

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If it'd been Shinon leading the Mercs after Greil's death, they never would have entered Gallia. He would've sold Elincia to the Daein Army for drinking money.

Well, he would've tried to sell her only to get killed or tortured in some gruesome way; the examples we see of how Daein treats sellouts is not good: the army that came to the mercenary fort intended to set the fort alight with flaming arrows once the princess was handed over in order to leave no witnesses, and the townspeople who sell out the princess to Norris in chapter 11 are immediately sentenced to torture and backbreaking labour by Norris.

[ZeManaphy]

Noble vs Common Blood is a very subjective field of discussion and in a modern sense could be seen as a " rich vs poor "  or " Privileged " blood.  What makes someone a commoner or noble is very complex, and the privilege vs merit discussions that often trails behind it as well. If commoner is determined by social status or/and wealth, then Byleth and Shez ( Haven't played Ike or Maciah's games so I will not comment ) and Alm would apply as lords who were raised as commoners. All three however, have had extraordinary privilege- Byleth and Shez have consciousness of opposing gods who grant them power, while Alm's Brand and Royal birth make him only one who can kill Duma with Falchion. Heck, even Robin was born with the potential to be Grima's vessel. Its especially the problematic in Alm's case because the former preaches that its character that matters not birth but in the end, its the circumstances of Alm's birth that saves the day. In conclusion, all main characters, including the commoners have had lucky boons, whether it be being born to a high class, or being born with god powers ( I count brands and crests as god powers because they are gift from extremely powerful individuals who can pass down through heritage ). I think a better question would be, " Is there a Lord who lacks upperclass birth or was born without god-like powers in the entire series ? " 

[Sunwoo]

FE as a series doesn't seem very good at establishing "pure" commoners as main characters. What actually sets Ike apart from the rest of the FE lords isn't so much that he's a commoner, but that he's comparatively ordinary. Let's look back at previous main characters.

 

Marth is not only a prince, but the only person who can wield Falchion (since apparently women couldn't wield it in Archanea)
Alm and Celica are not only a prince and princess, but literally prophesied children of destiny
Sigurd and Seliph are father and son descended from one of the warriors who helped defeat the big bad of their world and has special blood. Seliph also has a different minor special blood and is the rightful heir to what's left of the Grannvale Empire
Leif is admittedly less "special" than his father, cousin, and sister in innate abilities, but he becomes king and unites his own country and Thracia (if I recall correctly)
Roy and Eliwood may be less "special" than Hector due to being "just" one of many marquesses of the Lycian League, but I'd still count being of noble birth as special. Roy's also potentially 1/4 dragon or Lilina's husband depending on which pairings you picked
Hector is the head of the Lycian League
Lyn is the daughter of the chieftain of her tribe and the granddaughter of the marquess of Caelin, so she's technically noble on both sides. Also, if it counts for anything, the Mani Katti "chooses" her as its wielder
Ephraim and Eirika are the prince and princess of Renais
Micaiah is the rightful apostle of one country, becomes queen of another, and has so many special abilities no protagonist before Corrin ever had that the game is obviously screaming at you that she's "something special"
Chrom and Lucina are the Exalts of their country and two of the few chosen wielders of Falchion, since not everyone can wield it even now
Robin, if they are a main character, were born to be Grima's vessel. They're basically Julius who avoided a shitty fate
Corrin is the prince/princess of three different nations and can transform into a dragon and is the child of a powerful dragon gone mad. They special because lolavatar.
Byleth is the vessel of Sothis and basically becomes the "new Sothis" after she transfers her powers to them. They special because lolavatar.
Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude (if they count as main characters), are royals and heads of their nations and carry Crests that make them special, even if Crests aren't always a good thing in this world

Compare the above spoiler'd wall of text with Ike, who is less special than his own sister, who is a minor character. Ike's advantage is being Greil's son and being trained by him in swordplay, but I can't really say if one's ability to wield a sword is inherently passed down from parent to child. Rather, Ike's advantages are 1) being born healthy enough to wield a sword, and 2) having one of the best warriors ever train him in the sword. Ike isn't a prince or lord with a long lineage of noble ancestors who were blessed by dragons or weapons only people of that family could inherit. Unlike Mist, he didn't inherit his mom's sense of balance (confirmed by RD), so that doesn't make him special either. Nor was he chosen by Ragnell in any way; he just picked it up from the Black Knight and it became associated with him later on.

tl;dr

I don't think the issue here is so much commoner vs. lord, but rather that your main character is almost always "special" in some way that a lot of other characters can't match. Byleth and Corrin took this to ridiculous levels where no one could match them at all. If Ike feels different than other lords, it's because most of what made him special came primarily from his own hard work and he was technically less "special" than his supporting cast in special abilities.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Sunwoo

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

One important question that I don't think the game ever clarifies: who owns the fortress, and surrounding lands, out of which the GMs operate? The quickest and easiest answer is "Greil", in which case, Ike also inherits real estate upon his father's death. But it's possible that it belongs to someone else in the company, or even an unseen and unmentioned noble whom the group is renting from.

Maybe Rhys is secretly the money bags bank rolling the whole company.

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Sure; his father was former nobility. Emphasis on "former". Gawain lost all his titles, rank and status when he fled Daein and become an outlaw. His blood was no longer 'noble blood' anymore, as there was nothing to claim from it. Micaiah has claim to the Begnion Empire, Alm has claim to the Rigelian Empire; Ike has nothing to claim, as he is not the son of a noble: he is the son of a fugitive who lived under an alias. The game even specifies that Ike was born in Gallia, i.e. after Gawain ceased being Gawain.

Ike probably could go back to his fathers lands and demand his inheritance and then have a whole Lyn style fight with whomever lives there. Course Ike has no interest in doing so, but the society would consider him in his rights to do so. It's also possible Greil had older brothers who inherited whatever lands he was associated with so Ike has no noble inheritance (beyond the fort), but that wouldn't make him less noble. It'd mean he's not entitled to a lord ship, but even non inheriting  members of noble families who don't have any ranks or titles of their own to inherit were still considered noble. Being a fugitive or even treasonous does not stop someone being considered noble. It can stop them from being a lord, but noble his a matter of their birth. People believed nobles were literally superior by virtue of being born that way. Look at Constance in Three Houses who is a deposed lord who still considers herself completely noble (and more important, is still considered a noble by her other noble peers despite being deposed).

9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

FE as a series doesn't seem very good at establishing "pure" commoners as main characters. What actually sets Ike apart from the rest of the FE lords isn't so much that he's a commoner, but that he's comparatively ordinary. Let's look back at previous main characters.

  Hide contents

Marth is not only a prince, but the only person who can wield Falchion (since apparently women couldn't wield it in Archanea)
Alm and Celica are not only a prince and princess, but literally prophesied children of destiny
Sigurd and Seliph are father and son descended from one of the warriors who helped defeat the big bad of their world and has special blood. Seliph also has a different minor special blood and is the rightful heir to what's left of the Grannvale Empire
Leif is admittedly less "special" than his father, cousin, and sister in innate abilities, but he becomes king and unites his own country and Thracia (if I recall correctly)
Roy and Eliwood may be less "special" than Hector due to being "just" one of many marquesses of the Lycian League, but I'd still count being of noble birth as special. Roy's also potentially 1/4 dragon or Lilina's husband depending on which pairings you picked
Hector is the head of the Lycian League
Lyn is the daughter of the chieftain of her tribe and the granddaughter of the marquess of Caelin, so she's technically noble on both sides. Also, if it counts for anything, the Mani Katti "chooses" her as its wielder
Ephraim and Eirika are the prince and princess of Renais
Micaiah is the rightful apostle of one country, becomes queen of another, and has so many special abilities no protagonist before Corrin ever had that the game is obviously screaming at you that she's "something special"
Chrom and Lucina are the Exalts of their country and two of the few chosen wielders of Falchion, since not everyone can wield it even now
Robin, if they are a main character, were born to be Grima's vessel. They're basically Julius who avoided a shitty fate
Corrin is the prince/princess of three different nations and can transform into a dragon and is the child of a powerful dragon gone mad. They special because lolavatar.
Byleth is the vessel of Sothis and basically becomes the "new Sothis" after she transfers her powers to them. They special because lolavatar.
Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude (if they count as main characters), are royals and heads of their nations and carry Crests that make them special, even if Crests aren't always a good thing in this world

Compare the above spoiler'd wall of text with Ike, who is less special than his own sister, who is a minor character. Ike's advantage is being Greil's son and being trained by him in swordplay, but I can't really say if one's ability to wield a sword is inherently passed down from parent to child. Rather, Ike's advantages are 1) being born healthy enough to wield a sword, and 2) having one of the best warriors ever train him in the sword. Ike isn't a prince or lord with a long lineage of noble ancestors who were blessed by dragons or weapons only people of that family could inherit. Unlike Mist, he didn't inherit his mom's sense of balance (confirmed by RD), so that doesn't make him special either. Nor was he chosen by Ragnell in any way; he just picked it up from the Black Knight and it became associated with him later on.

tl;dr

I don't think the issue here is so much commoner vs. lord, but rather that your main character is almost always "special" in some way that a lot of other characters can't match. Byleth and Corrin took this to ridiculous levels where no one could match them at all. If Ike feels different than other lords, it's because most of what made him special came primarily from his own hard work and he was technically less "special" than his supporting cast in special abilities.

So slight correction, as I noted in the OP, Alm and Celica being children of destiny is in the remake. The only innate specialness Alm has in the original is the ability to wield Falcion and the Royal Sword (which isn't nothing) while Celica has nothing special other than her title (Beloved Zofia doesn't exist in Gaiden and Ragnarok {no Omega form} isn't exclusive to her nor implied to be anything unique or special). Though funnily enough Alm still does have a mark on his hand, only it's literally just a birth mark that has no special significance at all and is only used as a way for Zeke to recognize Alm.

Also Roy, aside from being a noble and potentially the descendent of a dragon, gets to use the Sword of Seals. This isn't a result of his bloodline as it's actually Zephiel's ancestor that used it, but it is a very much chosen by destiny Auther Pendragon sort of thing.

One character that hasn't come up yet and I kind of regret not mentioning until now is Kris. Kris feels very much like a salt of the earth commoner type. They might actually be a very minor noble as their grandfather was an Altean knight, but they certainly feel like a very "not special" character on par with Ike if not more so.

[Sunwoo]

Hm, personally I'd still count Alm and Celica because the remake decided to go in that direction. I don't know where other people will stand on this, but I'm of the opinion that a remake (unless specifically stated to be an AU or non-canon for other reasons) is the most updated canon of that work. And if they're still royalty in the original, that'd still count anyway.

I've only played Binding Blade once so I don't remember a lot of the dialogue (and didn't think to check the online script, whoops) but I guess if the SoS really did choose Roy it just makes him more special anyway. Did the sword actually choose him, or is it merely locked to him in the same way Sieglinde and Siegmund are?

Kris ... lol. I've never played any version of FE3, so I can't make a call on them either way. I'd argue that being an avatar who wasn't in the original and worms their way into the game and Marth's good graces count as being special by meta though.

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Hm, personally I'd still count Alm and Celica because the remake decided to go in that direction. I don't know where other people will stand on this, but I'm of the opinion that a remake (unless specifically stated to be an AU or non-canon for other reasons) is the most updated canon of that work. And if they're still royalty in the original, that'd still count anyway.

Oh yeah, I agree, to some extent, but I think it's also important to differentiate the original and the remake to contextualize the state of the series when Ike as a character was created.

16 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I've only played Binding Blade once so I don't remember a lot of the dialogue (and didn't think to check the online script, whoops) but I guess if the SoS really did choose Roy it just makes him more special anyway. Did the sword actually choose him, or is it merely locked to him in the same way Sieglinde and Siegmund are?

No, the Binding Blade literally chose Roy, like Lyn and the Mani Katti (again I wasn't arguing against Roy being special, just clarifying his situation, which yes, he is more special by being chosen by a legendary sword that's not even associated with his bloodline).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, he would've tried to sell her only to get killed or tortured in some gruesome way; the examples we see of how Daein treats sellouts is not good: the army that came to the mercenary fort intended to set the fort alight with flaming arrows once the princess was handed over in order to leave no witnesses, and the townspeople who sell out the princess to Norris in chapter 11 are immediately sentenced to torture and backbreaking labour by Norris.

That may have just been Norris, in particular, being a dick. Daein was certainly willing to accept Shiharam as a turncoat from Begnion, while Ashnard seems to value ability and ruthlessness over one's loyalties or station of birth. Shinon himself showed up later in Daein's employ, and didn't seem to be treated worse than the native soldiers.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

One character that hasn't come up yet and I kind of regret not mentioning until now is Kris. Kris feels very much like a salt of the earth commoner type. They might actually be a very minor noble as their grandfather was an Altean knight, but they certainly feel like a very "not special" character on par with Ike if not more so.

Damn, Kris hits the "just a regular guy" motif pretty perfectly... and yet fans hate them, at least as a story and narrative element. Would fans prefer a Kris who had some "special trait", justifying their capabilities and closeness to Marth? Or was an Avatar injected into a pre-existing storyline destined for disaster?

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Maybe Rhys is secretly the money bags bank rolling the whole company.

Rhys is a Priest rolling with a bunch of mercenaries because he's on the lam after pilfering the church collection plate.

[Sunwoo]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah, I agree, to some extent, but I think it's also important to differentiate the original and the remake to contextualize the state of the series when Ike as a character was created.

Yeah, that's fair. I've also heard that SoV changed/elaborated some things from Gaiden that was ... uh, not a great decision on the part of SoV.

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, the Binding Blade literally chose Roy, like Lyn and the Mani Katti (again I wasn't arguing against Roy being special, just clarifying his situation, which yes, he is more special by being chosen by a legendary sword that's not even associated with his bloodline).

Okay, guess I either forgot or missed that part when I played through it.

Just for further clarification, Eirika and Ephraim were never actually "chosen" by Sieglinde and Siegmund, right? There's no given lore reason that those weapons should be locked to them outside of gameplay reasons, right? And were Eliwood and Hector technically chosen by the spirits of Roland and Durban (I think, I forgot his name and can't be arsed to check it right now) to wield Durandal and Armads in FE7?

EDIT:

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Damn, Kris hits the "just a regular guy" motif pretty perfectly... and yet fans hate them, at least as a story and narrative element. Would fans prefer a Kris who had some "special trait", justifying their capabilities and closeness to Marth? Or was an Avatar injected into a pre-existing storyline destined for disaster?

I think Kris was always going to get not-so-great reception because they were shoved into a pre-existing storyline. I'm a little disappointed at how they handled the Archanea remakes. FE11 was very barebones and I didn't like it mechanically, FE12 had an avatar and probably had similar mechanics and was never localized. Marth deserved better.

If Kris had actually been "special", and outright upstaging Marth, they'd probably be more universally hated (with their only fans probably being people who can only get invested in a story if "they" are in it).

Edited August 5, 2022 by Sunwoo

[Acacia Sgt]

Honestly, is it that easy to overlook that, in spite of who Alm is, that the message can still apply? He's not the only soul in Valentia. Tobin becomes a noble himself after years of serving in the knighthood. Saber, Jesse, and Kamui stablish their own kingdom with blackjack and hookers and didn't had to be blessed by a dragon to do so, unlike Rigel and Zofia. Even Rigel and Zofia had to prove their merit to Duma and Mila. They weren't chosen just willy-nilly or were born special themselves (Ragnarok was even granted, Zofia didn't had it; though it's certainly teachable as Luthier and Delthea's ancestor learned it through Zofia, not Mila). So they too were commoners who became rulers and gained the special bloodlines through their efforts. And Lima IV shows how even being born to privilege can easily have that privilege revoked by those beneath you. Showing that the message that one's station of birth does not set your path in life still has room. It's not like Alm can help being what he was born as, so why should that invalidate the message he's trying to preach? Him declaring he'll toil the soil alongside his subjects shows he is certainly not going to forget his upbringing. All in all, the message is quite present in SoV, but if you just zone on Alm and what he is (as in, doing just exactly what the likes of Berkut and Fernand did), of course it might not look like it is. Missing the forest for the tree and all that.

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

Just for further clarification, Eirika and Ephraim were never actually "chosen" by Sieglinde and Siegmund, right? There's no given lore reason that those weapons should be locked to them outside of gameplay reasons, right? And were Eliwood and Hector technically chosen by the spirits of Roland and Durban (I think, I forgot his name and can't be arsed to check it right now) to wield Durandal and Armads in FE7?

That's correct. None of the Sacred Twins have limitations of who can wield them beyond just having the skill (as in, the weapon rank) for it, and none exists in the story either. The limitation for those two is precisely because Protagonist Clause, same as Ragnell one game later.

Yep, they had to pass trials, and Durban with Hector shows it's open to anyone. Since it is mentioned a few times that the Marquesses all descend from Roland.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That may have just been Norris, in particular, being a dick. Daein was certainly willing to accept Shiharam as a turncoat from Begnion, while Ashnard seems to value ability and ruthlessness over one's loyalties or station of birth. Shinon himself showed up later in Daein's employ, and didn't seem to be treated worse than the native soldiers.

Possible, though the circumstances are also different. Shiharam and his platoon defected, but over protest over the corruption of the Senate. It also wasn't like in the middle of a war, so the situation was more "guys quit job and reapply elsewhere" than something like the villagers outright selling out a Laguz with the clear intention of wanting to be in the good graces of the Daeins. Besides, I'm pretty sure Ashnard was not King yet when all this happened, and Shiharam had already proved himself by then.

Same for Shinon. As far they know, he's just a random guy applying for their army.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[vanguard333]

46 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That may have just been Norris, in particular, being a dick. Daein was certainly willing to accept Shiharam as a turncoat from Begnion, while Ashnard seems to value ability and ruthlessness over one's loyalties or station of birth. Shinon himself showed up later in Daein's employ, and didn't seem to be treated worse than the native soldiers.

True, though there was also the case in chapter 5 where the Daein troops pretended to be willing to spare the Greil Mercenaries but had every intent on killing them to keep word of the princess from spreading. Shiharam defected years earlier and out of dissatisfaction with the Begnion Empire while Shinon didn't end up in the Daein army until around the time Elincia ended up in Begnion, when knowledge of Princess Elincia was no longer as relevant (plus, there's nothing indicating that his recruiters had any knowledge that he was previously part of the Greil Mercenaries). So it might be less based on Norris being a dick and more based on whichever each Daein commander sees as more beneficial to Daein.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

One character that hasn't come up yet and I kind of regret not mentioning until now is Kris. Kris feels very much like a salt of the earth commoner type. They might actually be a very minor noble as their grandfather was an Altean knight, but they certainly feel like a very "not special" character on par with Ike if not more so.

Well, this topic is about lords, so I just figured that Kris wasn't mentioned because they aren't a lord. I suppose this does raise the question: what do we define as the difference between an FE protagonist and an FE lord?

I argued that, if not for the Silver Snow route, Byleth wouldn't be a lord, since in every other route, they act as support for the actual lord. For a commoner to act as an FE lord, and not just an FE protagonist, it would likely have to be either a mercenary-turned-army-commander like Ike and Silver-Snow-Byleth, or a Joan-of-Arc scenario like Micaiah, as one would have to explain why they're invested in the war effort and why they're in charge.

 

10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Possible, though the circumstances are also different. Shiharam and his platoon defected, but over protest over the corruption of the Senate. It also wasn't like in the middle of a war, so the situation was more "guys quit job and reapply elsewhere" than something like the villagers outright selling out a Laguz with the clear intention of wanting to be in the good graces of the Daeins. Besides, I'm pretty sure Ashnard was not King yet when all this happened, and Shiharam had already proved himself by then.

Same for Shinon. As far they know, he's just a random guy applying for their army.

If I remember correctly, Shiharam and Haar defected from Begnion 20 years before Radiant Dawn, so 17 years before Path of Radiance, though there may have been time in between them leaving Begnion and them entering the Daein army, as Shiharam tells Petrine that he and his forces have served Daein for 15 years. Ike is 17 years old in Path of Radiance, he was born after Greil fled Daein, and Greil fled Daein around the time Ashnard took over. So Ashnard was almost-certainly in charge when Shiharam joined the Daein forces.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, this topic is about lords, so I just figured that Kris wasn't mentioned because they aren't a lord. I suppose this does raise the question: what do we define as the difference between an FE protagonist and an FE lord?

It used to be easy back in the day. Every Fire Emblem protagonist except Alm had the lord class, even Ike, who promoted into it. So "lord" and "protagonist" were synonymous. Radiant Dawn was the first to kind of mix things up by having no real dedicated protagonist, and those that it did, Ike and Miaciah, didn't fit into any mold that could be narratively defined as lord (though I guess it might have been cool if Ike just kept the lord class even after abandoning his lordship, though, equally, that would have meant keeping the the design and I don't really like lord Ike's design. Personally i would have made Ike's class Mercenary and promoted him to Hero as that not only works narratively but also maintains continuity with weapon ranks in previous games as Mercenary and Hero were conveniently absent form Tellius as classes, but that's all neither here nor there).

Then, after Radiant Dawn we got the DS remakes where Kris kind of slipped in as an experiment. Even though they have a bunch of exclusive chapters to themself before Marth even shows up as a playable character. Robin and Lucina were really the ones to throw the lord = protagonist concept out the window with Robin being a major character who is a protagonist, yet also supporting Chrom and then Lucina, who is more of a support character, showing up only half way through the story despite the main over arching plot being about her, and carrying the lord class. And now the idea has broken down so far we have NPC Judith just randomly having the lord class. At this point it's probably better to abandon the short hand of lord=protagonist and treat purely as a mechanical gameplay class.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I argued that, if not for the Silver Snow route, Byleth wouldn't be a lord, since in every other route, they act as support for the actual lord. For a commoner to act as an FE lord, and not just an FE protagonist, it would likely have to be either a mercenary-turned-army-commander like Ike and Silver-Snow-Byleth, or a Joan-of-Arc scenario like Micaiah, as one would have to explain why they're invested in the war effort and why they're in charge.

The other possibility is to just have a plot that doesn't revolve around the nobility in any major way at all. Like a lone warrior and the friends he makes along the way fighting a sorcerer who killed his parents or something. Like, Blazing Blade's main plot doesn't require Eliwood and Hector to be nobility. They always were going to be since they were Binding Blade characters, but the actual plot beats of their story would have made as much sense if they had been commoners.

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

If I remember correctly, Shiharam and Haar defected from Begnion 20 years before Radiant Dawn, so 17 years before Path of Radiance, though there may have been time in between them leaving Begnion and them entering the Daein army, as Shiharam tells Petrine that he and his forces have served Daein for 15 years. Ike is 17 years old in Path of Radiance, he was born after Greil fled Daein, and Greil fled Daein around the time Ashnard took over. So Ashnard was almost-certainly in charge when Shiharam joined the Daein forces.

The timeline has them happening at the exact same time, with it stating Ashnard awarded Shiharam with the title of Palace Knights. I don't remember that specific title being mentioned but the it sounds like it's probably true given your reasoning. It's funny, I never really thought of Ashnard being in power for that long. If you had asked me I would have said Shiharam defected before his ascent. Kind of makes Shiharam look super desperate though, as they decided to go to the country that had (seemingly) just suffered a massive plague...was Crimeia really off the table?

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It used to be easy back in the day. Every Fire Emblem protagonist except Alm had the lord class, even Ike, who promoted into it. So "lord" and "protagonist" were synonymous. Radiant Dawn was the first to kind of mix things up by having no real dedicated protagonist, and those that it did, Ike and Miaciah, didn't fit into any mold that could be narratively defined as lord (though I guess it might have been cool if Ike just kept the lord class even after abandoning his lordship, though, equally, that would have meant keeping the the design and I don't really like lord Ike's design. Personally i would have made Ike's class Mercenary and promoted him to Hero as that not only works narratively but also maintains continuity with weapon ranks in previous games as Mercenary and Hero were conveniently absent form Tellius as classes, but that's all neither here nor there).

Then, after Radiant Dawn we got the DS remakes where Kris kind of slipped in as an experiment. Even though they have a bunch of exclusive chapters to themself before Marth even shows up as a playable character. Robin and Lucina were really the ones to throw the lord = protagonist concept out the window with Robin being a major character who is a protagonist, yet also supporting Chrom and then Lucina, who is more of a support character, showing up only half way through the story despite the main over arching plot being about her, and carrying the lord class. And now the idea has broken down so far we have NPC Judith just randomly having the lord class. At this point it's probably better to abandon the short hand of lord=protagonist and treat purely as a mechanical gameplay class.

The other possibility is to just have a plot that doesn't revolve around the nobility in any major way at all. Like a lone warrior and the friends he makes along the way fighting a sorcerer who killed his parents or something. Like, Blazing Blade's main plot doesn't require Eliwood and Hector to be nobility. They always were going to be since they were Binding Blade characters, but the actual plot beats of their story would have made as much sense if they had been commoners.

The timeline has them happening at the exact same time, with it stating Ashnard awarded Shiharam with the title of Palace Knights. I don't remember that specific title being mentioned but the it sounds like it's probably true given your reasoning. It's funny, I never really thought of Ashnard being in power for that long. If you had asked me I would have said Shiharam defected before his ascent. Kind of makes Shiharam look super desperate though, as they decided to go to the country that had (seemingly) just suffered a massive plague...was Crimeia really off the table?

True; it was easier back in the day. Personally, I would describe a "lord" character, regardless of their class, as the one in command. Characters like Robin and Byleth in 3 out of 4 routes avoid being the lord character because they play the tactician/support role. Similarly, I'd count Ike as a lord in Path of Radiance because Elincia leaves the bulk of the commanding to him; Elincia's role is mainly diplomatic.

True; a story that isn't about a political war could work.

Perhaps Shiharam chose Daein because of that plague? Perhaps he thought it would give him more leverage when arranging his defection or something like that. Something like, "You have lost a lot of people and are short of troops; we could help protect the Daein... if you agree to our modest requests."

[Eltosian Kadath]

14 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

 

We don't know if they own the land the fort sits on. Owning the home without owning the land was far more prevalent in the middle ages, and it's never stated that the land itself is there's; only the fort.

Owning a fort is very different from owning a house. As a military installation it is the kind of property that would only be owned by a noble.

 

11 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Compare the above spoiler'd wall of text with Ike, who is less special than his own sister, who is a minor character. Ike's advantage is being Greil's son and being trained by him in swordplay, but I can't really say if one's ability to wield a sword is inherently passed down from parent to child. Rather, Ike's advantages are 1) being born healthy enough to wield a sword, and 2) having one of the best warriors ever train him in the sword. Ike isn't a prince or lord with a long lineage of noble ancestors who were blessed by dragons or weapons only people of that family could inherit. Unlike Mist, he didn't inherit his mom's sense of balance (confirmed by RD), so that doesn't make him special either. Nor was he chosen by Ragnell in any way; he just picked it up from the Black Knight and it became associated with him later on.

What are you talking about, Ike is so special that he is literally the only character in Radiant Dawn capable of killing a goddess. Just like with his nobility, Ike's specialness is something the story doesn't draw attention to, but clearly must be the case. The story might pretend that Ragnell is just a sword, but the game treats it exactly the same as Marth's Falchion, or Roy's Binding Blade. Heck, in many ways it is treated as even more special than those, as there are weapons normal people can use to theoretically kill the final bosses of those games whereas Ike's Ragnell is the only weapon that can even damage the final boss of his first game (technically the Royal Laguz, and the Dragon Laguz can as well, but those aren't exactly weapons, and not normal people either), and again it is literally the only one that can kill the final boss in his second game. I guess that is another thing he shares with Alm, being forced to get the finishing blow on a deity (barring the Nosferatu glitch/Easter egg, but I digress).

 

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

One character that hasn't come up yet and I kind of regret not mentioning until now is Kris. Kris feels very much like a salt of the earth commoner type. They might actually be a very minor noble as their grandfather was an Altean knight, but they certainly feel like a very "not special" character on par with Ike if not more so.

One of Kris's origins is as a Noble's child, but otherwise, Kris is by far the closest the games come to having a commoner protagonist. No special personal weapon, not even a very special lineage, or gods blood (or whatever you want to call whatever god stuff was given to Robin and Byleth), just a mind boggling work ethic. Well unless you want to count TMS: FE#, or maybe the second FE Warriors game (I literally know next to nothing about it, as the first FE Warriors game removed any interest I might have in any Musou games).

 

8 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

So they too were commoners who became rulers and gained the special bloodlines through their efforts.

That has been with the series since at least the third game, as the curse of the Fire Emblem start with Artemis being unable to marry the hero Anri because he came from common birth, even if he did claim the Falchion, and founded his own kingdom after the fact...

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

One of Kris's origins is as a Noble's child, but otherwise, Kris is by far the closest the games come to having a commoner protagonist. No special personal weapon, not even a very special lineage, or gods blood (or whatever you want to call whatever god stuff was given to Robin and Byleth), just a mind boggling work ethic. Well unless you want to count TMS: FE#, or maybe the second FE Warriors game (I literally know next to nothing about it, as the first FE Warriors game removed any interest I might have in any Musou games).

The playable characters of TMS are celebrities. In other words, the nobility of our era.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That has been with the series since at least the third game, as the curse of the Fire Emblem start with Artemis being unable to marry the hero Anri because he came from common birth, even if he did claim the Falchion, and founded his own kingdom after the fact...

Which plays to the message that one isn't confined to their station of birth. And indeed, Archanea is chockfull of examples.

Anri was just a peasant.
Adrah was a common thief.
Iote a slave.
Ordwin stood a little higher up as a knight, but he still wasn't all that special.
Duke Marlon was King Cartas' brother, but he had nothing special going on to him either beyond that.

Yet they all rose to the position of royalty, as founders of nations. As it is, FE is full of examples, SoV was just the first(?) to try to speak the part out loud.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Acacia Sgt