Commoner Lords vs Noble Lords

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The playable characters of TMS are celebrities. In other words, the nobility of our era.

Funnily enough it is basically everyone except the main character that is. Itsuki starts out as a regular student thrust into the world of showbiz thanks to becoming a Mirage Master (and having the most anime version of being the childhood best friends with the character who SHOULD be the protagonist of the game), and he never really focusing on any part of the parts of the entertainment world that would make you think of him as a celebrity, as both of his ending focus on far more behind the scene parts of the entertainment industry. I mean his starting class is literally Everyman, to really emphasize his place in the story...

[joevar]

31 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Anri was just a peasant.
Adrah was a common thief.
Iote a slave.
Ordwin stood a little higher up as a knight, but he still wasn't all that special.
Duke Marlon was King Cartas' brother, but he had nothing special going on to him either beyond that.

if we're talking unplayable char/ past heroes, Elibe Divine generals mostly also basically that iirc. they are the founding father of their own respective nobility which suggest they were not nobility when they become leader of humanity against dragon. i think athos also describe eliwood ancestor as some shorty dude who somehow became hero due to his strength 😁

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

The other possibility is to just have a plot that doesn't revolve around the nobility in any major way at all. Like a lone warrior and the friends he makes along the way fighting a sorcerer who killed his parents or something. Like, Blazing Blade's main plot doesn't require Eliwood and Hector to be nobility. They always were going to be since they were Binding Blade characters, but the actual plot beats of their story would have made as much sense if they had been commoners.

i think many obscure SRPG manage to do that. makes you wonder why FE fails to do that. maybe one possible reason being FE plot consist of big invisible army that the MC command which would only possible in medieval setting if the commander has some sort of nobility rank. if its a group of less than 15 people party like in standard JRPG i think it would be easier to have MC thats not nobility at all

a bit oot

i dont mind if people strongly want FE making commoner lord as MC like i've seen some clearly want in this forum, especially with today's bias against nobility of past era (or maybe monarchy vs democarcy as general). but commoner lord who became nobility or influential people, then betray the very cause they fight for before is also todays product, its no less hypocrite or bad than noble who try to reclaim their throne. so if we stay with noble lord for MC i dont see big problem other than "hey, maybe try something new"

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 (and having the most anime version of being the childhood best friends with the character who SHOULD be the protagonist of the game),

Wait, who, Tomua or Tsubasa?

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Wait, who, Tomua or Tsubasa?

I meant Tsubasa.

[Sunwoo]

6 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

What are you talking about, Ike is so special that he is literally the only character in Radiant Dawn capable of killing a goddess. Just like with his nobility, Ike's specialness is something the story doesn't draw attention to, but clearly must be the case. The story might pretend that Ragnell is just a sword, but the game treats it exactly the same as Marth's Falchion, or Roy's Binding Blade. Heck, in many ways it is treated as even more special than those, as there are weapons normal people can use to theoretically kill the final bosses of those games whereas Ike's Ragnell is the only weapon that can even damage the final boss of his first game (technically the Royal Laguz, and the Dragon Laguz can as well, but those aren't exactly weapons, and not normal people either), and again it is literally the only one that can kill the final boss in his second game. I guess that is another thing he shares with Alm, being forced to get the finishing blow on a deity (barring the Nosferatu glitch/Easter egg, but I digress).

I don't consider this a case of Ike being special (nor Alm, for this specific reason), I consider it a case of forced gameplay/story integration. It's basically the equivalent of "what if you could only defeat Grima with Chrom or Robin in gameplay, and whichever one you used determined the ending you got" or "what if you could only defeat Julius with Naga tome and if you lost Julia or didn't get the tome you're out of luck and have to restart the chapter"?

A questionable decision to be sure, but like I wouldn't count Eirika and Ephraim as being chosen by their weapons solely because only they can wield their Sacred Twins in-game, I wouldn't count the gameplay railroading you into being "story-accurate" as an example of why Ike and Alm are special.

There really isn't any reason to suggest why Yune couldn't have given her power to anyone else to strike down the final blow on Ashera. She could've picked Sothe just for shits and giggles, but Ike got her power instead because of main character rights, clearly. (And Micaiah is too busy being a soul jar.)

Edited August 5, 2022 by Sunwoo

[Dark Holy Elf]

27 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I don't consider this a case of Ike being special (nor Alm, for this specific reason), I consider it a case of forced gameplay/story integration. It's basically the equivalent of "what if you could only defeat Grima with Chrom or Robin in gameplay, and whichever one you used determined the ending you got" or "what if you could only defeat Julius with Naga tome and if you lost Julia or didn't get the tome you're out of luck and have to restart the chapter"?

I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to say here; can you clarify? What gameplay/story integration is needed here? Why is only Ike able to fight Ashnard and defeat Ashera, if not to show how special he is? It's a deliberate choice, and serves no gameplay purpose. After all, in most other games, anyone could deal the finishing blow to the final boss, and the main exceptions besides Tellius are the ones which are leaning hardest into "bloodlines are very special" (e.g. FE4).

Anyway I do think Ike comes across as extremely special, and inheriting a company of warriors is about as noble-adjacent as a commoner can get. I think he's a good character, and his lack of official nobility is a plot point which results in him getting less respect in Begnion, but I do think he's extremely priveleged by commoner standards.

 

Shez probably comes closest to a true commoner main out of the FEs I've played. While s/he does have some special powers, they don't seem to lead as directly to the position they occupy in the army as do Byleth's (appointed as a professor by Rhea entirely due to that), and Shez's parentage never gets them favours and automatic respect from others the way Ike's does.

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to say here; can you clarify? What gameplay/story integration is needed here? Why is only Ike able to fight Ashnard and defeat Ashera, if not to show how special he is? It's a deliberate choice, and serves no gameplay purpose. After all, in most other games, anyone could deal the finishing blow to the final boss, and the main exceptions besides Tellius are the ones which are leaning hardest into "bloodlines are very special" (e.g. FE4).

Ike isn't the only one who can fight Ashnard; the dragons and the royal laguz can as well. In that case, it's because Ashnard is wearing blessed armour provided by the Black Knight.

As for Ashera, I wasn't a fan that Ike is the only one who could beat Ashera. By "gameplay/story integration" I think @Sunwoo means that the cutscene where Yune gives her power to Ike and Ike delivers the final blow was made, so Ike being the only one who can strike the final blow keeps it consistent with the cutscene. Personally, I think it would've make more sense if only Micaiah could land the final blow since she's the one hosting Yune in the first place; yet another example of Micaiah getting overshadowed in her own game.

[Sunwoo]

Yeah, that's basically it. FE4's gameplay doesn't force you to beat Julius with Julia, even though it's the most "correct" option, or even the other "correct" option Seliph. But we can basically assume in-story that one of those two (most likely Julia) kicked his ass even if Ares or Faval got the final blow in gameplay. Tellius is a particularly annoying case of the story really wanted Ike to be the one to finish off Ashera, and instead of just letting his final blow on her be a cutscene while in actual gameplay anyone can do it, they did ... well, what they did. Not a big fan of it either, but that's less Ike being special and more the gameplay railroading you into a certain direction.

I also do agree that Ike is definitely privileged by commoner standards. IS has honestly failed in every avenue to write a completely ordinary protagonist with no special lineage or bullshit divine powers. But to me specifically, I think Ike was decently well-written and grounded. Sometimes, being a blunt and honest dude who sees your character before anything else just hits really right. I should also mention that I have massive Fodlan burnout and don't want to ever play 3Hopes, so

[Dark Holy Elf]

In the case of Ashnard, his having that armour at all, and the fact that Ragnell can't be wielded by anyone else, really combine to make it a very deliberate choice that Ike is a special warrior who can fight Ashnard, and the rest of your team isn't on his level. (It's a fair point that yeah the laguz royals and dragon can too... probably a bit of a good game design safety valve in case you don't level Ike... but it certainly separates him from the likes of Oscar, Boyd, and Titania.) Same with Ashera, really; Ike is the chosen one who receives Yune's power. If the writers weren't deliberately trying to make look Ike special, they wouldn't have put that scene in the game.

21 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I think Ike was decently well-written and grounded. Sometimes, being a blunt and honest dude who sees your character before anything else just hits really right.

I do agree with this, and think this is a large part of why Ike is one of the most popular lords in the series.

[Etrurian emperor]

22 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Ike isn't the only one who can fight Ashnard; the dragons and the royal laguz can as well. In that case, it's because Ashnard is wearing blessed armour provided by the Black Knight.

The blessed armor was always really silly and one could argue that those two characters in particular having it might even be a plothole. Both the Black Knight and Ashnard define themselves as true warriors and they deeply crave a thrilling fight. The Black Knight even goes so far as to commit murder purely for a chance to get his thrill, and Ashnard muses on how exiting it would be to trade blows with the Black Knight, and relishes his chance to fight the Laguz rulers. 

So if both characters obsessively crave a thrilling battle then why do they both wear armor that ensures that almost no fight will ever have any tension. Both characters so dearly wanting a challenge while at the same time giving themselves cheat code armor seems kinda conflicting points. 

Sure BK offers Ike and Grail Ragnel to make things fair but that doesn't really change the fact that despite his warriors ideals he wears an armor that makes any fight inherently unfair. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Etrurian emperor

[ping]

12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

In the case of Ashnard, his having that armour at all, and the fact that Ragnell can't be wielded by anyone else, really combine to make it a very deliberate choice that Ike is a special warrior who can fight Ashnard, and the rest of your team isn't on his level. (It's a fair point that yeah the laguz royals and dragon can too... probably a bit of a good game design safety valve in case you don't level Ike... but it certainly separates him from the likes of Oscar, Boyd, and Titania.) Same with Ashera, really; Ike is the chosen one who receives Yune's power. If the writers weren't deliberately trying to make look Ike special, they wouldn't have put that scene in the game.

In Ashnard's case, I suspect that he's (more or less) a 1v1 boss in order to make him more challenging. If he'd be dogpile-able, he'd be a complete joke. For Radiant Dawn, they then managed to come up with a way to make a bossfight that's interesting while allowing everybody to contribute... but they also made that bee-yootiful cutscene of Ike dealing the final blow, so obviously that has to be reflected in gameplay.
(I should note that I don't particularly like either of those things. Ike doesn't really have any personal motivation to fight Ashnard that goes beyond everybody elses, so there's really no narrative pay-off for the solo fight. And for RD, I always thought it was blatant that the cutscene probably predated and certainly dictated that detail of the boss fight.

Anyway - I don't think that Ike being special needs to be a point of contention. He is - he's a more talented fighter than anybody else in Tellius, and he's quite likeable in his Shonen Protagonist ways. I think that comparison has been made some time ago in this forum and I think it's a fairly good abbreviation of Ike's social skills

However, nothing suggests that any of Ike's specialness is caused by some "noble bloodline" or anything of the sort. What privileges he has had over your average Boyd have been deliberately given to him by Greil: combat training from a very young age, and a direct path to leadership after Greil's death. That second thing is probably the most undeserved boon Ike receives throughout the two games, since even if Greil saw leadership talent in Ike, at that point in time Ike hasn't done anything to deserve preference over Titania or even over Oscar.

But what follows from there does stem from Ike's own merits. He succeeds in his challenges because he is a very talented fighter (and helped by Titania in particular, of course), and his Shonenness (very blunt, not a deceitful bone in his body, free of any prejudice) endears him to powerful people (Mufasa, Elinicia, Sanaki) who presumably have to deal with passive-aggressive, lying, bigoted people on a daily basis. His father's status, or rather previous actions, give him some extra credit in Gallia, but when he's officially elated to a general and noble, it's because he's the best man for the job, and out of political concern, respectively.

--

I do think that this contrasts him with many of his predecessors in the series, in particular those written by Kaga. I don't think the GBA games go out of their way to attribute any abilities or personal weapons to their protagonists' bloodlines - it's "just" their social status - but Marth, Alm, and everybody of note in Jugdral explicitly (and not merely as a game mechanic) has access to certain weapons because of their special bloodline or (in Jugral in particular) are innately more powerful than the peasant rabble. Ike's very talented at fighting and fairly charismatic, but that's just him and not a "noble trait" and I feel like I keep repeating myself at this point

[Acacia Sgt]

13 minutes ago, ping said:

I do think that this contrasts him with many of his predecessors in the series, in particular those written by Kaga. I don't think the GBA games go out of their way to attribute any abilities or personal weapons to their protagonists' bloodlines - it's "just" their social status - but Marth, Alm, and everybody of note in Jugdral explicitly (and not merely as a game mechanic) has access to certain weapons because of their special bloodline or (in Jugral in particular) are innately more powerful than the peasant rabble. Ike's very talented at fighting and fairly charismatic, but that's just him and not a "noble trait" and I feel like I keep repeating myself at this point

Can be a good point, but then the likes of Marth and Alm go like 95-98% of their respective journeys without those weapons as well. Ike had his for most of PoR, but didn't used it either until the end.

[vanguard333]

54 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The blessed armor was always really silly and one could argue that those two characters in particular having it might even be a plothole. Both the Black Knight and Ashnard define themselves as true warriors and they deeply crave a thrilling fight. The Black Knight even goes so far as to commit murder purely for a chance to get his thrill, and Ashnard muses on how exiting it would be to trade blows with the Black Knight, and relishes his chance to fight the Laguz rulers. 

So if both characters obsessively crave a thrilling battle then why do they both wear armor that ensures that almost no fight will ever have any tension. Both characters so dearly wanting a challenge while at the same time giving themselves cheat code armor seems kinda conflicting points. 

Sure BK offers Ike and Grail Ragnel to make things fair but that doesn't really change the fact that despite his warriors ideals he wears an armor that makes any fight inherently unfair. 

Perhaps it's because they want a true fight; they don't want a random assassin with a dagger or a stray arrow to be what ultimately defeats them. Having blessed armour does mean it has to be a duel scenario.

Plus, while the Black Knight does crave a good fight, he also has a mission he must accomplish. His craving for a good fight and desire to surpass Gawain is his own ambition, but he ultimately is loyal to Sephiran and his mission is top priority. Sephiran probably gave him the armour specifically for the mission.

As for Ashnard, Ashnard doesn't consider using a feral royal dragon as a mount to be unfair, so why would he consider blessed armour to be unfair?

[Dark Holy Elf]

While it's slightly tangential, I definitely agree with @Etrurian emperor that having invincible armour makes Ashnard's entire professed ideology complete hypocritical nonsense. "The strongest should rule, and I'm the strongest" says man whose strength can almost never be tested or proven because he auto-wins against everyone who doesn't have some sort of goddess-blessed weapon. Though to be fair, his ideology is completely inane anyway, so maybe exposing it as hypocritical is a net positive.

At least Zelgius hands an armour-piecing sword to the two people he actually wants a fair duel from.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The blessed armor was always really silly and one could argue that those two characters in particular having it might even be a plothole. Both the Black Knight and Ashnard define themselves as true warriors and they deeply crave a thrilling fight. The Black Knight even goes so far as to commit murder purely for a chance to get his thrill, and Ashnard muses on how exiting it would be to trade blows with the Black Knight, and relishes his chance to fight the Laguz rulers. 

It's not a "plot hole", it's just a detail that (arguably) undermines their characterization. A "plot hole" would be Ashnard having magical armor... but then just anyone can damage and/or kill him. Not saying he should have magical armor in the first place, but there's an argument to be made that making the effort to acquire OP weapons and equipment, and then using them, is a testament to that person's strength and ruthlessness.

On 8/5/2022 at 2:15 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to say here; can you clarify? What gameplay/story integration is needed here? Why is only Ike able to fight Ashnard and defeat Ashera, if not to show how special he is? It's a deliberate choice, and serves no gameplay purpose. After all, in most other games, anyone could deal the finishing blow to the final boss, and the main exceptions besides Tellius are the ones which are leaning hardest into "bloodlines are very special" (e.g. FE4).

My interpretation has generally been that it's not about Ike, but about Ragnell instead. Since the blade was blessed by Ashera, it's uniquely* equipped to harm her beyond what normal beorc weapons and laguz fangs can achieve. And only Ike can use Ragnell, because Sanaki bequeathed it to him, and it would be rude of him to regift it.

*let's go ahead and forget that Alondite is made available to the player, as there's no reason it would be less capable of "sealing" Ashera than its twin.

4 hours ago, ping said:

In Ashnard's case, I suspect that he's (more or less) a 1v1 boss in order to make him more challenging. If he'd be dogpile-able, he'd be a complete joke.

A "dogpile-able" Ashnard could be really interesting, if they give him the Pass skill and passive recovery. You've got him cornered, but then he just flies out of range and licks his wounds.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's not a "plot hole", it's just a detail that (arguably) undermines their characterization. A "plot hole" would be Ashnard having magical armor... but then just anyone can damage and/or kill him. Not saying he should have magical armor in the first place, but there's an argument to be made that making the effort to acquire OP weapons and equipment, and then using them, is a testament to that person's strength and ruthlessness.

My interpretation has generally been that it's not about Ike, but about Ragnell instead. Since the blade was blessed by Ashera, it's uniquely* equipped to harm her beyond what normal beorc weapons and laguz fangs can achieve. And only Ike can use Ragnell, because Sanaki bequeathed it to him, and it would be rude of him to regift it.

*let's go ahead and forget that Alondite is made available to the player, as there's no reason it would be less capable of "sealing" Ashera than its twin.

A "dogpile-able" Ashnard could be really interesting, if they give him the Pass skill and passive recovery. You've got him cornered, but then he just flies out of range and licks his wounds.

As it stands you basically do dog pile him. Only one of the four units (probably Jill) is sitting there doing nothing while the others (Ike, Dragon and Royal) lay into him. At least that's how I fight him. I guess you just march Ike up alone, but his movement range is big he can probably go after the likes of Mist or someone if you don't fence him in.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

As it stands you basically do dog pile him. Only one of the four units (probably Jill) is sitting there doing nothing while the others (Ike, Dragon and Royal) lay into him. At least that's how I fight him. I guess you just march Ike up alone, but his movement range is big he can probably go after the likes of Mist or someone if you don't fence him in.

Love how you can just park 4 totally grounded units around a flying enemy, and there's nothing they can do to escape. Even when that enemy is the final boss.

All fliers should get Pass. Clearly, they're not busted enough just yet.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Love how you can just park 4 totally grounded units around a flying enemy, and there's nothing they can do to escape. Even when that enemy is the final boss.

All fliers should get Pass. Clearly, they're not busted enough just yet.

I've been thinking about the Z axis in Fire Emblem for a few years now and how it could work. For a while it seemed kind of impractical without putting in some kind of isometric perspective change, but Three Houses really gave full freedom of movement for the camera to the point where it feels like you could just put another layer on top for flying units to traverse and for bridges and ledges and stuff. I don't think it would even necessarily be a huge buff to flying units if they need to spend a point of movement to "fly up" and then another point to "fly down" in order to attack enemies.

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I've been thinking about the Z axis in Fire Emblem for a few years now and how it could work. For a while it seemed kind of impractical without putting in some kind of isometric perspective change, but Three Houses really gave full freedom of movement for the camera to the point where it feels like you could just put another layer on top for flying units to traverse and for bridges and ledges and stuff. I don't think it would even necessarily be a huge buff to flying units if they need to spend a point of movement to "fly up" and then another point to "fly down" in order to attack enemies.

Say, that's similar to an idea I've had before. Though mine was more inspired to SRW's mechanic where mechas capable of flight can indeed rise up and land down, though instead of taking a movement point it's just an option only available before moving. So same thing there. For flying units, it meant gaining terrain bonuses but also the movement penalties... but also not have the bow weakness while grounded.

[Dark Holy Elf]

15 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All fliers should get Pass. Clearly, they're not busted enough just yet.

Proposal: Fliers get pass. Cavalry get high move. Thieves get Canto.

Separate out the different types of good movement. The problem is that IntSys thinks it's a good idea to pile all of those on one unit at once.

[ping]

17 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Love how you can just park 4 totally grounded units around a flying enemy, and there's nothing they can do to escape. Even when that enemy is the final boss.

I assume the polite thing is to not mention it.

RE: Ashnard -
I think his ideology is still consistent, albeit obviously inane. He thinks that the "strong" should rise and the "strongest" should rule, but he doesn't have any reservations about how to become strong. He became stronger by aquiring an impenetrable armour and a big fuck-you dragon. If you can't overcome those things, well, sucks to be you. I can't hear your complaints up here riding my big fuck-you dragon.

The other strength-obsessed characters - BK, the Laguz, Ike to a degree - all seem to have some addtional code of honour in place which would prevent them from looking for cheap auto-wins, but Ashnard doesn't seem to give a damn about 'fairness' or other concepts of the sorts.

On 8/6/2022 at 10:37 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

Can be a good point, but then the likes of Marth and Alm go like 95-98% of their respective journeys without those weapons as well. Ike had his for most of PoR, but didn't used it either until the end.

I don't think that this diminishes the point, to be honest. Ike carrying Ragnell is presented as happenstance, or as something that came from the BK's decision to leave it with Greil's body, presumably in the hope that Ike would prove to grow to be his father's equal. But Ike doesn't have any divine spark or noble blood or whatnot that lets only him wield it - he just called dibs, basically. Yes, mechanically it's the same as Falchion being Marth's personal weapon, but the narrative justification is very different.

[Acacia Sgt]

16 minutes ago, ping said:

I don't think that this diminishes the point, to be honest. Ike carrying Ragnell is presented as happenstance, or as something that came from the BK's decision to leave it with Greil's body, presumably in the hope that Ike would prove to grow to be his father's equal. But Ike doesn't have any divine spark or noble blood or whatnot that lets only him wield it - he just called dibs, basically. Yes, mechanically it's the same as Falchion being Marth's personal weapon, but the narrative justification is very different.

It does since it means they do all their deeds without the actual benefits their positions or even special bloodlines carry. Instead through their own hard effort that could've been replicated by almost anyone else.

This is why for example, Marth was chosen over Hardin to lead the Archanean League for this reason. Him being the only one to use Falchion matters little if Falchion isn't there.

[vanguard333]

26 minutes ago, ping said:

RE: Ashnard -
I think his ideology is still consistent, albeit obviously inane. He thinks that the "strong" should rise and the "strongest" should rule, but he doesn't have any reservations about how to become strong. He became stronger by acquiring an impenetrable armour and a big fuck-you dragon. If you can't overcome those things, well, sucks to be you. I can't hear your complaints up here riding my big fuck-you dragon.

The other strength-obsessed characters - BK, the Laguz, Ike to a degree - all seem to have some additional code of honour in place which would prevent them from looking for cheap auto-wins, but Ashnard doesn't seem to give a damn about 'fairness' or other concepts of the sorts.

I agree. Ashnard values strength, but he doesn't have any sense of 'fairness' when it comes to strength in battle. He impregnated a dragon solely in the hopes of having a strong child, he uses blessed armour, a custom sword, a feral royal dragon, and he will even touch the medallion to gain an advantage.

[ping]

12 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It does since it means they do all their deeds without the actual benefits their positions or even special bloodlines carry. Instead through their own hard effort that could've been replicated by almost anyone else.

This is why for example, Marth was chosen over Hardin to lead the Archanean League for this reason. Him being the only one to use Falchion matters little if Falchion isn't there.

Oh, that's the angle. Sorry, I didn't catch that right away.

I think I agree insofar that all FE protagonists tend to be elevated to a certain position of power by birth or nepotism (in either case not by merit), but then rise above that position through their own actions. This is true for...

• Marth, who is prince by birth, but eventually ruler of Akaneia by merit
• Alm, who is made leader of the Deliverance because he's Mycen's grandson and (in Echoes) Clive thinks that he would make a good figurehead, but he gains real authority over the group by merit, although he eventually becomes the ruler of Valentia because inheritance
• and Ike, who is initially the subject of nepotism, but then becomes the general of the Crimean liberation force because he's considered to be the best man for the job.
• Roy and Micaiah fit the bill in their respective games, too. And I'm sure there's even more, but those two happened to spring to mind.

In all three cases, their special swords aren't a factor, though, including Ike. Yes, he carries it with him, but he even keeps it secret until the chapter with the BK fight, so he's clearly not elevated because he has such a big long sword.

But my angle was supposed to be a different one: Does the protagonist have any mythical powers that are tied to their noble heritage? Marth does (Falchion), and so does Elice and a changing cabal of princesses (Aum staff). Alm does. Half of Geneology's cast does. In Tellius, Micaiah does (and that Sanaki doesn't is a plot point).

This isn't supposed to lessen any deeds those protagonists accomplish. But I think it still separates Ike from the Kaga-era lords in particular. Specifically Alm, who also grew up without any noble, let alone royal, upbringing, but who turns out to have some innate "specialness": Only he can use the royal sword (because kings ought to have special swords, I guess), and I remember some convo in which one of the Ram villagers says that he "always knew that Alm was special", which because of its vagueness also has a certain "innate noble-ness" vibe to me. In contrast, what makes Ike stand out from his peers is much more mundane: He's good at fighting, and people tend to like his very straightforward and non-bigoted nature.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, ping said:

But my angle was supposed to be a different one: Does the protagonist have any mythical powers that are tied to their noble heritage? Marth does (Falchion), and so does Elice and a changing cabal of princesses (Aum staff). Alm does. Half of Geneology's cast does. In Tellius, Micaiah does (and that Sanaki doesn't is a plot point).

Which, again, are irrelevant most of the time since they don't get to use them all the time. Only like Micaiah does use her powers all the time, but even she stops as by the end of Part 1 she feels some of them becoming harder to use, like her precognition powers.

4 minutes ago, ping said:

This isn't supposed to lessen any deeds those protagonists accomplish. But I think it still separates Ike from the Kaga-era lords in particular. Specifically Alm, who also grew up without any noble, let alone royal, upbringing, but who turns out to have some innate "specialness": Only he can use the royal sword (because kings ought to have special swords, I guess), and I remember some convo in which one of the Ram villagers says that he "always knew that Alm was special", which because of its vagueness also has a certain "innate noble-ness" vibe to me. In contrast, what makes Ike stand out from his peers is much more mundane: He's good at fighting, and people tend to like his very straightforward and non-bigoted nature.

The remake certainly could make Alm apply, but Marth certainly is like Ike until he gets Falchion, which again, happens by the tail-end of both his journeys. Before that? He truly doesn't anything other than his Prince title, which until he actually retakes Altea, also isn't much to write home about.

So his efforts are his own.