Why does Fire Emblem hate lance infantry?

[Lightcosmo]

33 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

As for thieves, in a lot of the early games, they had no promotion. The earliest game that gave thieves a promotion was Blazing Sword

FE 4 and 5 both have Thief Fighter.

[vanguard333]

48 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

FE 4 and 5 both have Thief Fighter.

Forgive me; I never played the games so I just went through the class lists on this site, and I could've sworn the promotion column was blank on the thief row for them. I must not have looked carefully enough. I fixed it now.

Edited August 6, 2022 by vanguard333

[Lightcosmo]

5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Forgive me; I never played the games so I just went through the class lists on this site, and I could've sworn the promotion column was blank on the thief row for them. I must not have looked carefully enough. I fixed it now.

Theres no need to apologize, in was just trying to help!

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Good point. Cavalry being hybrids a lot of the time is certainly good evidence against my theory. That said, in most early FE games that had flying units, flying units were dedicated lance users who only received a second weapon upon promotion. Then again, they're still lance-users in Path of Radiance, which did add playable soldiers, so it's still evidence against my theory.

As for thieves, in a lot of the early games, they had no promotion. The earliest game that gave thieves a promotion was FE4, and then Roy's game went right back to them having no promotion.

Flying units actually had a little bit of hybridization in the early days, though it was mostly from how the early days treated weapons in general. In Shadow Dragon they were lance sword from base. But this is actually common as literally every lance using class also has sword access in the first game. They were Lances only in Gaiden but everyone was mono weapon users there. In Old Mystery they're lance while flying but sword while dismounted, and I think the same encourages you to use most because you're Pegasus knights join with swords and lances in thei inventory. The only game they had legit hybridization was Genealogy though as there they have sword and lances at base and promote to getting staves too (Thracia also has dismounting too, though if you look at the wiki it will tell you they use sword sand lances, but that's due to Thracia's odd choice of making Pegasus Knights a promoted class in Thracia).

Edited August 6, 2022 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

6 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Theres no need to apologize, in was just trying to help!

I'm Canadian; apologizing when we don't need to is the one Canadian stereotype that has some truth to it.

In all seriousness, thanks for the help.

 

Anyway, while my original balance theory is kind-of ruined by strong evidence against it, I still think the reason why IS so rarely includes lance infantry other than knights can be found by looking at the games that did include it.

In the case of Fates, it does look like spear fighter existed because Hoshido needed a lance-wielding (well, naginata-wielding) class and Nohr got knights and cavaliers. The mystery then is why Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn had playable soldiers/halberdiers/sentinels.

 

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Flying units actually had a little bit of hybridization in the early days, though it was mostly from how the early days treated weapons in general. In Shadow Dragon they were lance sword from base. But this is actually common as literally every lance using class also has sword access in the first game. They were Lances only in Gaiden but everyone was mono weapon users there. In Old Mystery they're lance while flying but sword while dismounted, and I think the same encourages you to use most because you're Pegasus knights join with swords and lances in their inventory. The only game they had legit hybridization was Genealogy though as there they have sword and lances at base and promote to getting staves too.

Thanks for the information. I knew a little bit about that hybridization in the really early games, but not a lot, so thanks for making that clear.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/4/2022 at 8:12 PM, Jotari said:

Even if moderate lances+cavalry is easier to get to than pure lances, pure lances would still have its niche as being the best class option to go for Lancefaire. Getting to S+ ranks in Three Houses is just not viable if you're going for multiple ranks, outside New Game+, of course.

Is S+ achievable on NG, even if you're just going for one rank? Like, I'm sure it is in a literal sense, but assuming you're not doing a quintuple-perfect tutoring session with a sauna'd student every single weekend. The promise of eventual Weaponfaire has always seemed to "pie in the sky" for me to ever actually go for. And in most cases, I'll take an earlier Movement +1 or Alert Stance + over the possibility of eventual Weaponfaire.

On 8/4/2022 at 8:12 PM, Jotari said:

Even if moderate lances+cavalry is easier to get to than pure lances, pure lances would still have its niche as being the best class option to go for Lancefaire. Getting to S+ ranks in Three Houses is just not viable if you're going for multiple ranks, outside New Game+, of course.

Well, Echoes didn't introduce any new playable classes in the base game. Should they have added a playable Brigand, or perhaps a Cantor? It could've added some variety to the player's side, but it'd also probably be incongruous with the narrative and worldbuilding. A playable Soldier in, say, Thracia 776 or Roy's Emblem might not break the lore in the same way, but it would impact how the class is being presented. While also introducing more competition for the available Lances. It wouldn't be a bad change, necessarily, but I'd find myself asking what it really accomplishes.

On 8/4/2022 at 10:50 PM, Jotari said:

The most obvious gameplay niche to me would be to eliminate Mercenaries as heavy sword users and replace them with soldiers. Leaving Myrmidons as the fast sword users, fighters as the heavy axe users and soldiers as the in between. That's really what Tellius did when it comes down to it, but I don't think that really stuck as people like Mercenaries and it's a nice thing to have around for easy character creation (think the likes of Dieck).

We hardly need both, especially when your Thief and your Lord are usually "sword infantry" as well. Mercenary is supposed to be the slower of the two, but let's be real - who's Guy doubling that Raven isn't? And with their higher Con, Mercs can actually outspeed Myrms assuming each is using a heavier weapon. The only game where the classes coexist, and Myrms get the better end of the deal, is FE6. And that's largely owed to a combination of busted Hard Mode bonuses and an absurd post-promotion Crit boost.

On 8/4/2022 at 10:50 PM, Jotari said:

But since Fire Emblem is so heavily into skills these days, Soldiers could carve out a niche for themselves using skills. In particular the Bond skills seem like they'd be useful on soldiers. I think Bond skills have only been in Heroes, but I'm talking about the skills that boost your units stats if they're adjacent to another ally. This could convey the idea of forming a spear wall, and it would also be fun to have on enemies as if the game throws five soldiers at you standing in a line, you can consciously weaken them by taking out the middle enemies first.

Always on board for skills that offer combat boosts based on positioning! Maybe a clean "+10 Crit, +10 Dodge for each adjacent ally"?

On 8/4/2022 at 8:30 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Because lance infantry are not actually interesting. They are the most balanced weapon type on the most basic movement type. The only reason the fandom thinks they're interesting is because of rarity.

On second thought, FE7 remake should turn Wil into a Soldier. It would fit hit personality and supports perfectly.

[Interdimensional Observer]

27 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well, Echoes didn't introduce any new playable classes in the base game. Should they have added a playable Brigand, or perhaps a Cantor?

Other than dark magic, I don't see the point. All three of the default Cleric-Saint girls get an Invoke spell eventually, even if they are learned late.

27 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It could've added some variety to the player's side, but it'd also probably be incongruous with the narrative and worldbuilding. A playable Soldier in, say, Thracia 776 or Roy's Emblem might not break the lore in the same way, but it would impact how the class is being presented. While also introducing more competition for the available Lances. It wouldn't be a bad change, necessarily, but I'd find myself asking what it really accomplishes.

For Thracia, yaaaaaaay viable indoor Lance user! All non-bow/magic/staff mounties get stuck with swords go indoors and dismount. While Dalsin the Axe Armor promotes to E Lances, which is sadly the Recruit From Hell Xavier's Lance rank, despite him being C/A/A on the other three weapon types. Weapon ranks increase rather slowly in FE5 too. A playable Soldier fixes this, and unlike the Armors, isn't weak to Hammers, which I thought from my one FE5 playthrough were extraordinarily prevalent among enemies.

For Binding Blade, a playable Soldier would stand to obsolete the Armor units even more than they already are. The armors have to compete with Cavaliers for Knight Crests, are slow in a game where constantly doubling actually isn't super easy, are low-mobility in a game with large-ish maps, and their concrete durability is undercut by dodgetanking being entirely viable. A Soldier, assuming nice Spd and Luck stats, could have much more offense than the Knights thanks to doubling, also sidestep a few hits that the armors would be eating, and move an extra square every turn. -They'd still lose to Alen & Lance, Perceval, and Melady however, hard to best that elite group, even if Zeiss, the other Cavs and Paladins, and the Pegasus Knights aren't so great.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is S+ achievable on NG, even if you're just going for one rank? Like, I'm sure it is in a literal sense, but assuming you're not doing a quintuple-perfect tutoring session with a sauna'd student every single weekend. The promise of eventual Weaponfaire has always seemed to "pie in the sky" for me to ever actually go for. And in most cases, I'll take an earlier Movement +1 or Alert Stance + over the possibility of eventual Weaponfaire.

Oh I have no idea XD it's only theoretically possible because I'd never actually go for it. Even of it were viable it'd be a pretty boring build.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well, Echoes didn't introduce any new playable classes in the base game. Should they have added a playable Brigand, or perhaps a Cantor? It could've added some variety to the player's side, but it'd also probably be incongruous with the narrative and worldbuilding. A playable Soldier in, say, Thracia 776 or Roy's Emblem might not break the lore in the same way, but it would impact how the class is being presented. While also introducing more competition for the available Lances. It wouldn't be a bad change, necessarily, but I'd find myself asking what it really accomplishes.

Honestly yeah, I think a playable brigand or even just as an option for villagers would have been nice. I also would have liked a Dancer since they show them off in the trailer. And let's not forget Shadow Dragon did add some new classes. Not a whole lot, but there definitely was some aesthetic value at least giving Gharnef the Sourcerer class (personally I would have gone further there too and split wyverns into tier 1 and 2 classes).

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

We hardly need both, especially when your Thief and your Lord are usually "sword infantry" as well. Mercenary is supposed to be the slower of the two, but let's be real - who's Guy doubling that Raven isn't? And with their higher Con, Mercs can actually outspeed Myrms assuming each is using a heavier weapon. The only game where the classes coexist, and Myrms get the better end of the deal, is FE6. And that's largely owed to a combination of busted Hard Mode bonuses and an absurd post-promotion Crit boost.

I think the addition of con might genuinely be the reason for the split.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Always on board for skills that offer combat boosts based on positioning! Maybe a clean "+10 Crit, +10 Dodge for each adjacent ally"?

I was actually thinking more along defense and attack. Stacking dodge can get very broken very fast.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Other than dark magic, I don't see the point. All three of the default Cleric-Saint girls get an Invoke spell eventually, even if they are learned late.

I actually would have liked it Delthea and Sonia stayed witches too for warping fun. Yeah I know they eventually learn teleport but that A) comes at a super high level (from what I remember) and B)Takes a turn to use making it almost functionally useless. The witch warping to allies in Fates was a tonne of fun to have and would work particularly well in Shadows of Valentia where traversing the map is less important.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

For Thracia, yaaaaaaay viable indoor Lance user! All non-bow/magic/staff mounties get stuck with swords go indoors and dismount. While Dalsin the Axe Armor promotes to E Lances, which is sadly the Recruit From Hell Xavier's Lance rank, despite him being C/A/A on the other three weapon types. Weapon ranks increase rather slowly in FE5 too. A playable Soldier fixes this, and unlike the Armors, isn't weak to Hammers, which I thought from my one FE5 playthrough were extraordinarily prevalent among enemies.

For Binding Blade, a playable Soldier would stand to obsolete the Armor units even more than they already are. The armors have to compete with Cavaliers for Knight Crests, are slow in a game where constantly doubling actually isn't super easy, are low-mobility in a game with large-ish maps, and their concrete durability is undercut by dodgetanking being entirely viable. A Soldier, assuming nice Spd and Luck stats, could have much more offense than the Knights thanks to doubling, also sidestep a few hits that the armors would be eating, and move an extra square every turn. -They'd still lose to Alen & Lance, Perceval, and Melady however, hard to best that elite group, even if Zeiss, the other Cavs and Paladins, and the Pegasus Knights aren't so great.

All valid points, but it feels less like an issue with soldiers and more an issue with knights. Which speaking of, of all units, deserve most to have more than one available weapon at tier 1.