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Should IS Try Again at a Manakete Lord?

Should a future FE game have a lord who is at least part-dragon and can shapeshift?  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Should a future FE game have a lord who is at least part-dragon and can shapeshift?

    • Yes
      17
    • No
      5


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18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Making it impossible for archers to counter at range 1 at all, while still letting lance- and axe-users (and in some games, sword-users too) the ability to both attack and counter at 1-2 range always made bows seem like they just had a weakness other weapons didn't.

Counterpoint: Different weapon types should have different strengths and weaknesses that other weapons don't.

Fates already did bows decently well, so it's not like they didn't know how to balance it. They had done it with the game right before.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Counterpoint: Different weapon types should have different strengths and weaknesses that other weapons don't.

Fates already did bows decently well, so it's not like they didn't know how to balance it. They had done it with the game right before.

I don't disagree with your first point. The issue is historically FE gives bows a massive weakness and little in the way of strengths to compensate for this.

Agreed that Fates does a better job than most. Conquest and Revelation, notably, do give them some weak range 1 options. Birthright doesn't, and I would say yumis were the weakest weapon type on that route, but the nerfs to ranged swords/lances/axes combined with very high power made them more palatable than in some games.

I'd say Three Houses still handles bows better than the average Fire Emblem game, though. Bows do have weaknesses (need a specific ability to counter with them, generic combat arts top out at +1 might compared to +5 to +8 for the other weapons) to counterbalance their strength of range.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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On 8/5/2022 at 7:45 PM, lenticular said:

Where it falls down, I think, is mechanically. Through Fire Emblem so far, dragons just haven't been all that interesting to use, because they have so many fewer options.

It's sad that to this day, the Manakete with the most diverse weapon arsenal, is FE3 Book 2 Tiki. Fire, Ice, Flying, Mage, and Divine Dragonstones, five unique options! Admittedly I never used Ice because you have to buy it and it simply wasn't worth it over Fire, and Flying was undermined by Divine Dragon form also having flight and more than enough uses to last the remainder of the game. Even so, and ignoring how all the dragon manifestations were unable to double yet could basically 1-2 range 2HKO anything, it is still the most diverse an FE dragon has ever been.

 

On 8/5/2022 at 11:16 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'd say Corrin is actually the most interesting dragon unit to use thus far, gameplay-wise. Since you can specifically choose whether they use a Dragonstone or a Sword. And the two stones have different stat effects!

Fundamentally, the two stones are too similar, there isn't a "Dragonrune" like the Beastrune that deviates from the 'stone and 'stone+ variants.

To be charitable with Corrin's Dragonstone usage, I've always interpreted it as a "shield" to the literal sword of the Yato. Swords can double, giving them much better offense unless you stack enough Mag to OHKO things with the Dstone. Dstones can't double, but provide an appreciable durability buff. If playing Conquest or Revelation, debuffing enemies a bunch of enemies with the awesome Draconic Hex can provide slight compensation for a lack of doubling and 1-2 range. I used the Dstone to tank hits plenty, even if it'd probably be better to either go Levin Sword/Bolt Naginata/Bolt Axe or Horse Spirit if you wanted to do that with a magical offense.

 

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Birthright doesn't, and I would say yumis were the weakest weapon type on that route

I'd say that's thats Clubs. The only natural user at base you get there for them is Rinkah, a very middling character. Scarlet is a more balanced Camilla-lite who joins later too, but it's sad that Hoshido's best Club user is a Nohrian class character who technically is an Axe user. Yumis give you Takumi of the very solid if generally average stats (and through him, Kiragi), Reina isn't too shabby either, and Mozu the growths goddess is usually Heart Sealed into Archer right away. The dearth of good default clubbers is more damaging than Yumis having the flaw of low accuracy. 

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15 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It's sad that to this day, the Manakete with the most diverse weapon arsenal, is FE3 Book 2 Tiki. Fire, Ice, Flying, Mage, and Divine Dragonstones, five unique options! Admittedly I never used Ice because you have to buy it and it simply wasn't worth it over Fire, and Flying was undermined by Divine Dragon form also having flight and more than enough uses to last the remainder of the game. Even so, and ignoring how all the dragon manifestations were unable to double yet could basically 1-2 range 2HKO anything, it is still the most diverse an FE dragon has ever been.

I'd say, using such system again would be a good idea for a Manakete/Dragon protagonist. Perhaps with the multi-turn transformation approach of MotE being brought back as well.

As it is, both MotE and its remake had the makings of a full system between them. Fire and Ice in the original dealt effective damage against each other, which is not present in the remake. Mage Breath didn't exist in the original, but in the remake it hits Res unlike the other Stones hitting Def. The Wyvern form gave flight utility in the original. And Divine being basically an "all forms combined" kinda thing was fitting since Divines were the strongest of the dragons. Something like that could be reused too, as like for something post-promotion if permitting, or something obtained late in the game.

Could be doable if it was that the protagonist begins with just one breath, and obtains the rest throughout the game.

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38 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say, using such system again would be a good idea for a Manakete/Dragon protagonist. Perhaps with the multi-turn transformation approach of MotE being brought back as well.

As it is, both MotE and its remake had the makings of a full system between them. Fire and Ice in the original dealt effective damage against each other, which is not present in the remake. Mage Breath didn't exist in the original, but in the remake it hits Res unlike the other Stones hitting Def. The Wyvern form gave flight utility in the original. And Divine being basically an "all forms combined" kinda thing was fitting since Divines were the strongest of the dragons. Something like that could be reused too, as like for something post-promotion if permitting, or something obtained late in the game.

Could be doable if it was that the protagonist begins with just one breath, and obtains the rest throughout the game.

I knocked around some ideas for something like that a long while back and came up with something like this.

*Fire Breath: 1 range physical damage

*Ice Breath: 1-2 range physical damage

*Mage Breath: 1-2 range magical damage

*Blood Breath: 1 range Nosferatau damage (magical or physical, not really important, what matters is you're use to 2 range by the time you get this one but it has a powerful effect limited to 1 range)

*Earth Breath: 1-10 siege tome like range, physical damage (low durability)

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11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd say that's thats Clubs. The only natural user at base you get there for them is Rinkah, a very middling character. Scarlet is a more balanced Camilla-lite who joins later too, but it's sad that Hoshido's best Club user is a Nohrian class character who technically is an Axe user. Yumis give you Takumi of the very solid if generally average stats (and through him, Kiragi), Reina isn't too shabby either, and Mozu the growths goddess is usually Heart Sealed into Archer right away. The dearth of good default clubbers is more damaging than Yumis having the flaw of low accuracy. 

Sure, there are more natural archers than natural club-users, particularly early, but ask yourself this: would Rinkah be improved by giving her yumis instead of clubs? Would Takumi be hurt by giving him clubs (complete with a Fujin Club) instead of yumis? I think the answer is no in both cases, which suggests that clubs are actually the better weapon "in a vacuum". Although,, I think that perhaps Setsuna might be hurt by giving her clubs instead of yumis, but such is the nature of a character whose only good stat is speed; she wouldn't have much enemy phase even with clubs and her speed allows her to use the high power of yumis well.

I think there's a case that clubs are the least useful weapon type in Birthright, due to having so few good users, but that's not really a statement about the weapons themselves, just their users.

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