Would an explict warning like this make Ambush Spawns more palatable

[Eltosian Kadath]

In the midst of my Vestaria Saga I Ironman LP, I was reminded of one of the ways it handles ambush spawns

With a rather explicit warning about their existence, and vague description of where they will arrive. To make this even more explicit, you can sus out what exact spaces they can spawn from, thanks to a subtle mechanic Vestaria Saga has to prevent spawn blocking some opponents, where some spaces will be indicated that they can't be traversed at this time by putting the terrain name in ( ) when you scroll over them. Ambush spawns are a much maligned mechanic of many Fire Emblem games, but I am curious how much of an impact you all think a warning like this would have on how well you would tolerate/enjoy ambush spawns.

[Armchair General]

That's an little bit too overt for my tastes.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Meh, this is just Schrödingers ambush spawn: there will be spawns, they might be anywhere, anytime but you won´t know. I don´t think () is enough of a hint. This does nothing for ambush spawns. 

I also played this map and still got caught off guard - but I also skip everything that isn´t the actual game so I got no right to complain.

It leaves the big question "Where and from which point in time?" in my opinion. If you want ambush spawns at all they ougth to be either properly indicated and clearly established that they are possible, paranoia fuelling it may be, or they need to be giant once every few maps oh shit moments with guaranteed enough space between the enemy wave and the player - Minervas chapter with the reinforcements on the upper right would come to mind (though if the player moves north first they might still get ugly surprises, I´d wager) or the prologue chapter where someone gotta die.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'd take that over just having surprise ambush spawns, sure.

Many Fire Emblem games have explicit tactician/strategist characters, so it would feel pretty natural if they gave you a pre-battle briefing on the objective and whether you can expect enemy reinforcements. Kind of like selecting Augury in FE7. You don't have to see it if you don't want to, but the game was designed around the player having those hints. Heck they could go deeper. What if, as a side objective, you could seize enemy intel that gives you more info on later maps? Beat a map under a specific time limit to prevent the enemy from destroying those documents, or have your thieves steal the intel the same way they can loot a chest. Then have enemy "thieves" also working to secure/destroy that intel before the player can get to it. It prompts the player to play faster, but failure to get that intel will impact your playthrough about as much as failing to secure a rare staff or stat booster from a chest in a GBA fire emblem game. 

[blindcoco.studios]

I would actually like something a bit more organic and less on the nose, but it's better than having thieves with pass appear with no warning. Looking at you FE3H Maddening.

It would be cool to have stuff like smoke coming out of forts/camps, or a summoner channeling their next summon beforehand. 

[vanguard333]

Something better integrated into the game, like the enemy commander talking about reinforcements, would be better.

[ping]

In general? Absolutely. I still believe that properly signaled ambush spawns are overall superior to end-of-enemy-phase reinforcement because they can't be trivially farmed.

In this specific case, I think I prefer a bit more "localised" spawning areas, like a couple of forts, over declaring the entire edge of the map a danger zone. I do appreciate the straightforward info box, though. Allows for fairly precise information without silly in-script dialogues. "Harhar! Me mateys will arrive IN THREE TURNS from THE FORESTED AREA IN THE SOUTHEAST. I can't wait to see the TOTALLY SURPRISED looks on their faces!"

[Armchair General]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Something better integrated into the game, like the enemy commander talking about reinforcements, would be better.

That's been done to Hell and back. It kind of feels off to listen to Hubert narrating the arrival of some fliers or someone else bitching about how the reinforcements are running late.

Awakening was onto something when Chrom pointed out that he heard some footsteps below him and an alternate scene pans out if you block those 4 stairs; you'd expect to be some more commentary on the amount of hoofbeats in the distances or something

Edited August 10, 2022 by Armchair General

[Fabulously Olivier]

I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing, but it would be more immersive to have allied scouts warn you.

 

Perhaps certain playable characters could have a skill to detect ambush spawns before they occur?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ambush spawns on the edge of the map should never truly ambush (i.e. surprise) you. How does that even begin to make sense? "Sorry Roy, my field of vision ends at this arbitrary line on the battlefield, I couldn't see the horde of soldiers that were approaching from an open field." "That's okay, my field of vision ends there too." I can see the case for them emerging from thickets and stairwells and the like, though I'm not fond of them even then.

A more elegant way to do it, if you really want the enemies to have a chance to act before being killed, is to do what Mario+Rabbids did, and have the enemy visible in the space they're about to appear on the player phase right before they spawn, but not yet targetable. Naturally the game also makes these squares ones you can't stand in that turn, which prevents the incredibly silly strategy of "you can make enemies not exist if you stand in the place they were planning to be" seen in some Fire Emblems.

[Shadow Mir]

24 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Awakening was onto something when Chrom pointed out that he heard some footsteps below him and an alternate scene pans out if you block those 4 stairs

Which chapter is that in?

[X-Naut]

It would objectively help, but as others said it's a rather spoonfeedy and non-immersive solution. The screenshot might also be not descriptive enough, and going into more depth would push those two criticisms further.

I think the most elegant solution is to just drop the all-or-nothing mentality about their use. In fact, using them in tandem would solve both phases' issues: throw a scout or two in on player phase and the rest of them on enemy phase. Have the first fort spawns be one turn of player phase and then same-turn afterwards. It telegraphs what, when and where to expect them without leaning on the fourth wall and it'd arguably make them viable on all difficulties. Which they should be, locking them to Hard+ essentially forces players to learn a new mechanic.

[AnonymousSpeed]

"Let's get naked!"

-Ambush Spawns

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

"Let's get naked!"

-Ambush Spawns

Nah, let's save that for when we're selling real estate.

This would be... less bad than unannounced ambush spawns, sure. But it doesn't solve the core problem with ambush spawns. Even if I know where and when the ambush is, if I don't know what class it is, then how do I prepare? Staying 8 tiles away from the edge of the map because I'm afraid of Pegasus Knights, when it's only Soldiers that show up, is just bad play. Ambush spawns inherently punish blind players and reward those with advance or outside knowledge.

7 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

What if, as a side objective, you could seize enemy intel that gives you more info on later maps? Beat a map under a specific time limit to prevent the enemy from destroying those documents, or have your thieves steal the intel the same way they can loot a chest.

Ooh, I like this idea. Maybe you could get intel about the specific enemies who'll be showing up? That way, you know if you have the right weapons (i.e. Ridersbanes) and meet the stat benchmarks, before they show up. Could apply to regular reinforcements as well.

Thinking more on it, the only games that I'm generally happy with how they did reinforcements are:

Genealogy: they only ever come from the Castle, and only at the start of a phase, or when the Commander heads back for them;

Path of Radiance: they're always next-turn, they manage to fit into the story, and they're typically not too threatening; and

Echoes: they don't exist, outside of Cantors, who can be killed to despawn them.

I was gonna include Radiant Dawn, before I had my war flashbacks to Part IV rout maps... ugh.

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Perhaps certain playable characters could have a skill to detect ambush spawns before they occur?

Maybe a "Seer"? Combine this with the

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

and have the enemy visible in the space they're about to appear on the player phase right before they spawn, but not yet targetable.

and we have the least bad incarnation of ambush spawns yet. The "Seer" could be an optional deploy with limited utility or combat ability, but their "Foresight" skill activates automatically for the player. Revealing the ambush spawns a turn before they arrive.

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Armchair General said:

That's been done to Hell and back. It kind of feels off to listen to Hubert narrating the arrival of some fliers or someone else bitching about how the reinforcements are running late.

Awakening was onto something when Chrom pointed out that he heard some footsteps below him and an alternate scene pans out if you block those 4 stairs; you'd expect to be some more commentary on the amount of hoofbeats in the distances or something

I agree that having the enemy commander talk about reinforcements is overdone; I was just using it as one example of integrating the knowledge that reinforcements are coming into the actual game as opposed to just having a big prompt saying, "there will be reinforcements".

That was definitely a good example; much better than just having an enemy commander talk about reinforcements.

[Fabulously Olivier]

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Nah, let's save that for when we're selling real estate.

This would be... less bad than unannounced ambush spawns, sure. But it doesn't solve the core problem with ambush spawns. Even if I know where and when the ambush is, if I don't know what class it is, then how do I prepare? Staying 8 tiles away from the edge of the map because I'm afraid of Pegasus Knights, when it's only Soldiers that show up, is just bad play. Ambush spawns inherently punish blind players and reward those with advance or outside knowledge.

Ooh, I like this idea. Maybe you could get intel about the specific enemies who'll be showing up? That way, you know if you have the right weapons (i.e. Ridersbanes) and meet the stat benchmarks, before they show up. Could apply to regular reinforcements as well.

Thinking more on it, the only games that I'm generally happy with how they did reinforcements are:

Genealogy: they only ever come from the Castle, and only at the start of a phase, or when the Commander heads back for them;

Path of Radiance: they're always next-turn, they manage to fit into the story, and they're typically not too threatening; and

Echoes: they don't exist, outside of Cantors, who can be killed to despawn them.

I was gonna include Radiant Dawn, before I had my war flashbacks to Part IV rout maps... ugh.

Maybe a "Seer"? Combine this with the

and we have the least bad incarnation of ambush spawns yet. The "Seer" could be an optional deploy with limited utility or combat ability, but their "Foresight" skill activates automatically for the player. Revealing the ambush spawns a turn before they arrive.

I think Seers need more utility than just that to be viable. Such as revealing additional loot itsms on foes that wouldn't otherwise drop. Or improving the RNG outcomes around them.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

22 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I think Seers need more utility than just that to be viable. Such as revealing additional loot itsms on foes that wouldn't otherwise drop. Or improving the RNG outcomes around them.

How about being able to tell where "hidden treasure" is? Particularly for a future game that does like RD, and stocks even non-Desert maps with surprise presents. Or, have them identify "aggro lines", if a future game backs away from 3H's approach of making them universal. Perhaps even identify when a particularly "blessed" or "cursed" level up is coming for a unit.

I wouldn't personally give them any abilities that inherently change or improve outcomes to the player. The point would be, giving the player more knowledge about the game, and the hidden mechanics involved therein. And it's not like "Seeing" would be their only ability: they'd have supports, and probably some combat ability as well.

[Fabulously Olivier]

8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

How about being able to tell where "hidden treasure" is? Particularly for a future game that does like RD, and stocks even non-Desert maps with surprise presents. Or, have them identify "aggro lines", if a future game backs away from 3H's approach of making them universal. Perhaps even identify when a particularly "blessed" or "cursed" level up is coming for a unit.

I wouldn't personally give them any abilities that inherently change or improve outcomes to the player. The point would be, giving the player more knowledge about the game, and the hidden mechanics involved therein. And it's not like "Seeing" would be their only ability: they'd have supports, and probably some combat ability as well.

I'm just saying they would need something of some kind to actually improve performance or gain rewards rather than just being a knowledge crutch - because experienced players would just know these things already.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I'm just saying they would need something of some kind to actually improve performance or gain rewards rather than just being a knowledge crutch - because experienced players would just know these things already.

Well, the Seer could still save you from having to look this stuff up. I've played Radiant Dawn close to a dozen times, and I still need to look up where the hidden treasures are. And the pitfalls on the bridge map.

Like, every game has actually bad units. All the time, you get players new and old trying to make someone like Gwendolyn work. I'm proposing a unit at least as competent in combat as Gwendolyn (probably better), but with a cool side effect that makes the player's life a whole lot easier.

If the Seer gives the player additional benefits (like more drops, or improved growths), then they become a "why are you not fielding them every single map?" kind of unit. Which I'm actually trying to avoid. The benefit should be unique and useful, but not overwhelmingly so, to the point that not fielding them is an actively bad decision.

[Fabulously Olivier]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well, the Seer could still save you from having to look this stuff up. I've played Radiant Dawn close to a dozen times, and I still need to look up where the hidden treasures are. And the pitfalls on the bridge map.

Like, every game has actually bad units. All the time, you get players new and old trying to make someone like Gwendolyn work. I'm proposing a unit at least as competent in combat as Gwendolyn (probably better), but with a cool side effect that makes the player's life a whole lot easier.

If the Seer gives the player additional benefits (like more drops, or improved growths), then they become a "why are you not fielding them every single map?" kind of unit. Which I'm actually trying to avoid. The benefit should be unique and useful, but not overwhelmingly so, to the point that not fielding them is an actively bad decision.

Hmm, perhaps this would require some pretty heavy coding, but they could reveal specific elemental or weapon weaknesses on some random foes that otherwise wouldn't exist. Kind of like how the Nemesis system works in the Middle Earth games.

[Armchair General]

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which chapter is that in?

The one where you fight Pheros in the Valmese arc. You know, there's this fort you need to take, it was another day in the office until either Say'Ri or Chrom points out that they're hearing footsteps beneath them. Then the Emperor's court jester appears to annoy the boss and 4 guys appears in the giant room on the eastern side of the map.

[Whisky]

 

On 8/10/2022 at 12:29 PM, ping said:

In general? Absolutely. I still believe that properly signaled ambush spawns are overall superior to end-of-enemy-phase reinforcement because they can't be trivially farmed.

I agree. When you’re familiar with the game, ambush spawns are more engaging. It can reward you for moving through the map quickly to get into position before they appear. In a non ambush spawn game you can just rush forward and if they appear who cares. There’s more strategy with ambush spawns, but only if you know when and where they will appear…

On 8/10/2022 at 3:01 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

A more elegant way to do it, if you really want the enemies to have a chance to act before being killed, is to do what Mario+Rabbids did, and have the enemy visible in the space they're about to appear on the player phase right before they spawn, but not yet targetable. Naturally the game also makes these squares ones you can't stand in that turn, which prevents the incredibly silly strategy of "you can make enemies not exist if you stand in the place they were planning to be" seen in some Fire Emblems.

This sounds like it could work well. I haven’t played Mario+Rabbids but it sounds like it would be a good solution, and a good compromise between ambush and non-ambush spawns.

The big thing with ambush spawns is that they are sometimes designed much better than other times. Some people hate ambush spawns and say that ambush spawns are always bad design, but not all ambush spawns are equal. Some are terribly unfair even if you know they’re coming, other times you are given adequate warning about them.

On 8/10/2022 at 12:29 PM, ping said:

I do appreciate the straightforward info box, though. Allows for fairly precise information without silly in-script dialogues. "Harhar! Me mateys will arrive IN THREE TURNS from THE FORESTED AREA IN THE SOUTHEAST. I can't wait to see the TOTALLY SURPRISED looks on their faces!"

Even though in game dialogue is supposed to seem more natural than a 4th wall break text box, those conversations don’t actually make sense either, because the player characters shouldn’t know that information. It would make more sense if the dialogue came from NPCs acting as your team’s scouts or spies that obtained this information. As for the specific number of turns, this could sound more natural in dialogue if turns represented a specific amount of time. Some games have a day/night cycle.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Whisky

[Quell]

Honestly, it depends. I do not mind ambush spawns per sé, I do have quite a few bad experiences with them though and I see why they're so hated, and I do admit that I have participated in this argument before indulging in a little bit of trolling over the years, but yes I can say I do agree with you that they are usually good when well foreshadowed. But I'll bring a counteragument: the Rutger ambush spawn in ch4 of FE6, despite being incredibly well foretold and announced, is often regarded as one of the worst in the whole series (I disagree on this though, even if I too have some problems with it). There is a point when the reinforcements are just no fun and them being an ambush only subtracts from it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Rutger's reinforcement is terrible because he can potentially kill anyone in range, if he gets a critical hit. Thus if you're playing without savestates, the only safe way to deal with him is to be nowhere near him when he spawns. That's either unfair gameplay (if you don't know where/when he's going to appear) or extremely boring gameplay (if you do know, you just keep back for a couple extra turns), which is bad either way.

The one defence I can see of the design is that arguably Rutger is supposed to kill someone (and since he's a good PC at least you get a replacement a moment later) and it's supposed to showcase how powerful/dangerous he is, but I still can't say I'm a fan.

[Whisky]

I agree Rutger's ambush spawn is bad, for a few reasons. In addition to what Dark Holy Elf already said, Rutger doesn't appear just outside of the castle, he appears off to the side of it, towards your units, and with a whole squad around him that are also several spaces closer to your units than you might reasonably expect them to appear. You literally see them come out of the castle and run basically a whole turn's worth of Move to the right of it, and then immediately take their turn with their full Move. It's almost like they get two turns in a row.

Also to add specifically to what Dark Holy Elf said, "if you do know, you just keep back for a couple extra turns", the reason for that is that they appear in between your team and where you are going (it actually feels like they appear right around where you would naturally be at that point in the chapter which might raise credence to Dark Holy Elf's suggestion that Rutger is supposed to kill someone (which I also agree is bad)). There are cases of ambush spawns that incentivize and reward players for playing quickly, getting past the ambush spawns or otherwise into better positions before they appear. There are other examples of ambush spawns that appear behind the player like the Cavaliers in Chapter 7 (which you're given plenty of warning about). But the ones that basically force you to slow down are some of the worse cases of ambush spawns. Other examples like this (and I think are worse than Rutger) include the enemies that appear around the boss in Chapters 6 and 7.