Battalions in Binding Blade

[Jotari]

Batallions were a new feature added to Three Houses and while it's hard to gauge, I think they're pretty popular. They have useful effects and provide some narrative gameplay cohesion helping to show off the actual alleged armies. So there's a strong chance they'll stick around in future games, and maybe even future remakes.

The remakes so far have been rather close in terms of gameplay to the originals. Maybe too close, so this isn't a guarantee. Then again, it could happen too, Shadows of Valentia added combat arts and Shadow Dragon added the weapon ranks wherebthey didn't previously exist.

This got me thinking of Binding Blade and specifically how Batallions could fix what is commonly seen as a "problem". Namely that Roy in the mid game feels more like an escort mission than an actual contributing member. However,  Batallions could be a new niche for him to lean into. Give him a good base rank for Batallions and a good charm stat, may be even some prf  Batallions and boom. You have a new niche that doesn't ruin his identity as a character and also one that makes great narrative sense for him.

Idk it's just something I thought of that could work particularly well for him. Batallions as a new element to the series could be an interesting way of balancing units that got a bit shafted originally.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've always felt that a good way to balance Roy was to add FE4 authority stars. So even if Roy isn't good at combat late game, he's still making other units better. And paired with the GBA style of support bonuses, it creates a dynamic where "Roy supports everybody", thus Roy is a very valuable unit. Maybe retool the system so that you get more authority stars from battles as a separate experience gauge that only Roy can accrue, or more stars after important plot events. Roy isn't just getting better at fighting, he's growing into the leader that people need him to be.

I love batallions however, and support their inclusion in any fire emblem game. I might point out however that if it works the way it does in Three Houses, then giving Roy high charm and authority may be seen as a fleeting advantage. Especially when he hits that level 20 cap and the player has much less reason to throw him into more battles. Other units who can promote will simply catch up in authority. "Just give him an earlier promotion" is an obvious solution, but I also just kind of disagree with the idea that Roy would have high authority out of the gate. Good charm growth sure, he ends up with half a dozen different women, but he's a young pup at the start of the game and I want gameplay to reflect his initial weaknesses as a leader. Prf batallions for the Lord are cool though. For the same reason that handing them a Rapier is always a cool idea - a unique, powerful tool to help them thrive in the early game and not be stuck with the same batallions everyone else is using

Edited August 15, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I've always felt that a good way to balance Roy was to add FE4 authority stars. So even if Roy isn't good at combat late game, he's still making other units better. And paired with the GBA style of support bonuses, it creates a dynamic where "Roy supports everybody", thus Roy is a very valuable unit. Maybe retool the system so that you get more authority stars from battles as a separate experience gauge that only Roy can accrue, or more stars after important plot events. Roy isn't just getting better at fighting, he's growing into the leader that people need him to be.

I love batallions however, and support their inclusion in any fire emblem game. I might point out however that if it works the way it does in Three Houses, then giving Roy high charm and authority may be seen as a fleeting advantage. Especially when he hits that level 20 cap and the player has much less reason to throw him into more battles. Other units who can promote will simply catch up in authority. "Just give him an earlier promotion" is an obvious solution, but I also just kind of disagree with the idea that Roy would have high authority out of the gate. Good charm growth sure, he ends up with half a dozen different women, but he's a young pup at the start of the game and I want gameplay to reflect his initial weaknesses as a leader. Prf batallions for the Lord are cool though. For the same reason that handing them a Rapier is always a cool idea - a unique, powerful tool to help them thrive in the early game and not be stuck with the same batallions everyone else is using

I understand the desire to bring forth his promotion, but honestly, I've kind of grown to love his promotion. He gets some strong promotion gains (mainly in res, but since he's attacking at 1-2 range that's not wasted) and the Binding Blade means he hits the ground running as capable as units far ahead of him in levels. It's a good feeling to finally have him unleashed after the waiting. Only thing I don't like is the lack of visual difference. Coming to think of it, Master Lord is at the end of the class list, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a rushed addition and Roy was intended to not have a promotion at all, like Marth.

[AnonymousSpeed]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Batallions were a new feature added to Three Houses and while it's hard to gauge, I think they're pretty popular.

I didn't really like them. I personally felt they were a tacked-on mechanic with a tacked-on stat (Charisma) to go with them. The only thing that was interesting about them was using gambits on monsters, but that's really more on the monsters than the battalions.

18 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I've always felt that a good way to balance Roy was to add FE4 authority stars. So even if Roy isn't good at combat late game, he's still making other units better. And paired with the GBA style of support bonuses, it creates a dynamic where "Roy supports everybody", thus Roy is a very valuable unit.

Iunno. Because always have to deploy our boy Roy, I don't think authority stars would make him feel useful because you could never give them up or trade them for anything, or really discern they were connected to Roy and not to being a player unit.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I didn't really like them. I personally felt they were a tacked-on mechanic with a tacked-on stat (Charisma) to go with them. The only thing that was interesting about them was using gambits on monsters, but that's really more on the monsters than the battalions.

The biggest difference is actually probably the stat boosts they provide. Course the central idea doesn't need to be utilized in the exact same way as Three Houses (personally I think the duo effects in Heroes should have been implemented as batalluons/gambits instead if arbritraily being tied to two units standing in one tile).

Quote

Iunno. Because always have to deploy our boy Roy, I don't think authority stars would make him feel useful because you could never give them up or trade them for anything, or really discern they were connected to Roy and not to being a player unit.

Other units could have authority stars too to make Roy's increases number relevant. Provided they don't do it the Radiant Dawn way where multiple units with command stars is useless.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

This might seem a tad odd, but I think I would prefer if for non-3H games, that Battalions almost entirely couldn't be purchased. I think Battalions would work more as something that comes either exclusively with characters, obtained via the plot, or maybe visiting some villages or completing optional objectives like NPC survival. As with character recruitment in general, it would contribute to the sense of a gradually growing international army as the game progressed. 

Mercenaries exist, true. But for most battalions, why are there so many freewheeling soldiers? Particularly from countries to whom they should owe their allegiance? At the least, I would lock the available purchasable battalions behind plot occurrences. When the game begins, it's all "Lycian" or mercs, you don't get to buy "Western Choppy Boys" or anything else with "Western" in the name until you've exposed Etrurian exploitation in the Western Isles, although Deke/Wade/Lott could join with such a group being from the Isles.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

This might seem a tad odd, but I think I would prefer if for non-3H games, that Battalions almost entirely couldn't be purchased. I think Battalions would work more as something that comes either exclusively with characters, obtained via the plot, or maybe visiting some villages or completing optional objectives like NPC survival. As with character recruitment in general, it would contribute to the sense of a gradually growing international army as the game progressed. 

Mercenaries exist, true. But for most battalions, why are there so many freewheeling soldiers? Particularly from countries to whom they should owe their allegiance? At the least, I would lock the available purchasable battalions behind plot occurrences. When the game begins, it's all "Lycian" or mercs, you don't get to buy "Western Choppy Boys" or anything else with "Western" in the name until you've exposed Etrurian exploitation in the Western Isles, although Deke/Wade/Lott could join with such a group being from the Isles.

Yeah I feel like Three Houses has a bit too many Batallions to the extent that they have no real identity. Making them rarer and more select in where they represent would work well for me.

[Acacia Sgt]

It's certainly an interesting idea. Yeah, there'd be no need to have like lots of battalions.

I can even see a good way to introduce the mechanic. After Chapter 1, since Eliwood orders Roy to take Pherae's levies to join the main Lycian Army in Araphen, this can be represented as gaining your first battalion: "Pherae's Knights" or something like that.

Some other battalion ideas (names are more what they are than actual titles or classes they'd have):

St. Elimine Bishops - After Chapter 16/16x once Roy gets official support of the church through Yoder.

Western Isle Rebel Volunteers - Once Elffin joins the group (whether as playable in the B route or NPC if you took the A route).

Zelot's Mercenaries - After Chapter 7 once Zelot pledge service to Roy.

Ostian Armor Knights - After Chapter 8/8x, to bolster the Lycian Expedition to the Western Isles.

Bernese Dragon Knight Squadron - Could be defectors who can no longer support Zephiel, or Guinivere loyalists. Likely joining time after Chapter 13 once they see Melady is bringing the princess over to the Lycian Army.

Etrurian Sages - After Chapter 16/16x, to represent Roy is now commanding the joint Etrurian-Lycian army.

Kutolah Clan Members / Flightleader Squadron - Route Split dependent, naturally.

Off the top of my head. Could think a couple more later on.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 8/14/2022 at 8:40 PM, Jotari said:

Yeah I feel like Three Houses has a bit too many Batallions to the extent that they have no real identity. Making them rarer and more select in where they represent would work well for me.

Another idea I've seen floated around for future fire emblem games is that instead of Batallions being something you buy and equip, have each one be a Prf batallion specific to that character. And instead of a batallion leveling from 1 to 5 in a few chapters, have their "level" be that unit's authority level. Gaining more stats as authority increases. That way you have that separate progression system for each unit that further diversifies the roster. So let's say you've got your two christmas cavaliers. The green one's batallion grants additional attack speed and avoid, while Red's grants additional attack power and accuracy. Have an armor knight that gets a bunch of Res so he's not weak to mages, A "jagen" character who's strong because he's already possessing a high level batallion. Or having a "navarre" type of myrmidon with a pretty bad batallion (since he's a lone wolf) to make up for his high stats. Gambits can also play into that unit balancing if that returns as well. 

One controversial aspect of this idea depends on how you feel about random level up gains. Some players like the chaos of units ending up being blessed or screwed in certain stats, and having set in stone stat growths via batallion kind of conflicts with that experience. On the other hand if you like the idea of these added "fixed growths" keeping units on track, then it may be a plus. It may conflict entirely with a fire emblem game that allows for free reclassing like in Three Houses. For instance, a physical unit reclassed to a mage would have no need for a physical attack boost - might want to unseparate phys attack and mag attack stats to avoid that issue. And if you want the satisfaction of selecting batallions to make a build that suits a specific class, then you could just create one or two separate batallion options for units you can switch to during battle preps. Batallion options they earn at a certain level, after a support conversation chain, after a certain point of a story, or after doing their paralogue.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Replace battalions with fairies.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Replace battalions with fairies.

Aw yeah, we be Aura Battler Dunbine this up.

And on that subject, I wonder if Battalions could work instead in a similar to what SRW recently did with its Supporter system. You have a separate deployment list to choose a number of battalions for, and each one gives a passive bonus and a combat art.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Another idea I've seen floated around for future fire emblem games is that instead of Batallions being something you buy and equip, have each one be a Prf batallion specific to that character. And instead of a batallion leveling from 1 to 5 in a few chapters, have their "level" be that unit's authority level. Gaining more stats as authority increases. That way you have that separate progression system for each unit that further diversifies the roster. So let's say you've got your two christmas cavaliers. The green one's batallion grants additional attack speed and avoid, while Red's grants additional attack power and accuracy. Have an armor knight that gets a bunch of Res so he's not weak to mages, A "jagen" character who's strong because he's already possessing a high level batallion. Or having a "navarre" type of myrmidon with a pretty bad batallion (since he's a lone wolf) to make up for his high stats. Gambits can also play into that unit balancing if that returns as well. 

One controversial aspect of this idea depends on how you feel about random level up gains. Some players like the chaos of units ending up being blessed or screwed in certain stats, and having set in stone stat growths via batallion kind of conflicts with that experience. On the other hand if you like the idea of these added "fixed growths" keeping units on track, then it may be a plus. It may conflict entirely with a fire emblem game that allows for free reclassing like in Three Houses. For instance, a physical unit reclassed to a mage would have no need for a physical attack boost - might want to unseparate phys attack and mag attack stats to avoid that issue. And if you want the satisfaction of selecting batallions to make a build that suits a specific class, then you could just create one or two separate batallion options for units you can switch to during battle preps. Batallion options they earn at a certain level, after a support conversation chain, after a certain point of a story, or after doing their paralogue.

I'd like some prf batallions, but I don't think I'd like all of them being character exclusive. Part of what they add is resource management. If they're just permanently fixed to a character then it's less like something they have and more like just something the character is. It does make a certain degree of logical sense as commanders won't be changing who they're commanding all willy nilly like a player will treat battalions, but screw logical sens.

[joevar]

i like the idea that instead of buffing and pumping Roy with steroid to make him capable, instead look at something else that the original games has already told us what Roy is capable of: being a good tactician/strategist leader. so making him capable via battalion is nice idea.

altho i dunno if battalion like in 3H would work, maybe gives it a little more identity or just change how it works. the game already has way more units and total deployable units in late game, allowing each of them to attach a battalion would bloat the battlefield even more. 50 characters each leading a battalion sounds like a proper World War than continental war. and definetely many of them arguably not suited to commanding task. 

maybe group some of the character into "battalion" ? since theres a lot of recruits that represents a group and joins at once too like acacia already list

[AnonymousSpeed]

22 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Aw yeah, we be Aura Battler Dunbine this up.

...uh...who?

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

...uh...who?

It's an anime.

It almost looks like your standard "protagonist gets isekai'd to fantasy medieval world", or as typical as it would be back in 1983... if not for the fact it has mechas. Yes, mechas but otherwise a medieval fantasy world for the most part. Behold this curious combination:

Yep, that's armies on horseback, cannons, siege towers, castle defenders firing arrows/spears and their own cannons... plus mechas, flying battleships, some kind of robo-four-legged vehicles because the horses weren't enough apparently. Them works.

Now, in the clip you can see an actual fairy in the bridge of one of the battleships. Said fairy would also join the mecha pilots in their cockpits, usually the protagonist's. There were other fairies, but I don't remember if they also did the same. Now, since this is a mecha anime, it has appeared in SRW, and just about every time it did, SRW would basically let you assign the fairies to the pilots. Only among the Dunbine characters, but you could still switch the fairies around.

So yeah, your suggestion has been done. Just remove the mechas and it'd fit well with FE. lol Alternatively, next FE should take a page out of Dunbine. XD

Edited August 18, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[AnonymousSpeed]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

So yeah, your suggestion has been done. Just remove the mechas and it'd fit well with FE. lol Alternatively, next FE should take a page out of Dunbine. XD

"The cavalry is moving ouAUGH!"

So yeah, does it come recommended?

Also, the Mexican guy with his location in New York, I see what you did there.

Does the fairy, like...do anything? Imbue the mech with magical powers or whatever?

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

"The cavalry is moving ouAUGH!"

So yeah, does it come recommended?

Recommended?

1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Also, the Mexican guy with his location in New York, I see what you did there.

It's because my pfp is The Ink Spots. What are you referencing there?

1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Does the fairy, like...do anything? Imbue the mech with magical powers or whatever?

Admittedly, I don't remember. The fairies did had powers of their own, but I don't think they were the kind that could be used while in a mecha cockpit. Now in SRW they were basically sub-pilots, and that did carry gameplay effects (mainly in being an extra set of Spirit Commands for the unit).

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Recommended?

I think he means "is the show worth watching?"

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

I think he means "is the show worth watching?"

Oh, well, it was made by Yoshiyuki Tomino, so if you're familiar with Gundam, then you can guess what you're getting into. Just, with a fantasy medieval coat of paint. Heck, I'm pretty sure he did had a couple Gundam references in there.

I'll be honest, I haven't seen this personally. I'm mostly familiar with it because of Super Robot Wars, but I've never gotten the chance to watch it.

[AnonymousSpeed]

31 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It's because my pfp is The Ink Spots. What are you referencing there?

Oh, y'know.

Things.

Events.

20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh, well, it was made by Yoshiyuki Tomino, so if you're familiar with Gundam, then you can guess what you're getting into. Just, with a fantasy medieval coat of paint. Heck, I'm pretty sure he did had a couple Gundam references in there.

I'm just a little confused how the siege towers and everything are supposed to useful when there are giant robots, and why they don't do any other stuff with giant robot technology besides, well, y'know.

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I'm just a little confused how the siege towers and everything are supposed to useful when there are giant robots, and why they don't do any other stuff with giant robot technology besides, well, y'know.

Well, there's actually a reason for that.

Spoiler

All the technologically advanced stuff is not native to the world. It was basically introduced by a Weapons Manufacturer from Earth who also ended up there. The various nations were interested in what he had to offer, so by the time of the anime they're still novel stuff. Hence why still in the mindset of using the old stuff combined with the new.

Also, I would think relying on the old stuff means less damage overall, since they may have like, futuristic battleships, but still stone castles and wood and stone villages and stuff. Also why despite do having guns the mechas also fight mostly with swords.

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[AnonymousSpeed]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It was basically introduced by a Weapons Manufacturer from Earth who also ended up there.

This guy sounds like the real protagonist. Where's the anime about him?

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This guy sounds like the real protagonist. Where's the anime about him?

Hahaha, well, Dunbine itself since he is still around, but is clearly an antagonistic force.

He also

Spoiler

shows up in Dunbine's distant sequel. Where... um, the powers-that-be weren't happy that he did all that, so they cursed him with immortality... but his body still prone to age and decay. He's basically a living mummy during said distant sequel.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:49 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I've always felt that a good way to balance Roy was to add FE4 authority stars. So even if Roy isn't good at combat late game, he's still making other units better. And paired with the GBA style of support bonuses, it creates a dynamic where "Roy supports everybody", thus Roy is a very valuable unit. Maybe retool the system so that you get more authority stars from battles as a separate experience gauge that only Roy can accrue, or more stars after important plot events. Roy isn't just getting better at fighting, he's growing into the leader that people need him to be.

The Authority stars could be linked to the "Rankings" the player gets. So, better play provides an in-game reward. Of course, that could create an issue, if the metric measuring your performance also affects your performance...

How about FE5-style Authority? So, units with noble lineage (i.e. Lilina, Klein) or military leadership roles (i.e. Douglas, Cecilia) could offer an added boost from taking the field. Conversely, high-authority enemies (i.e. Murdoch, Gale) could create more problems for the player. And I just made Wyvern Hell even worse what the h-

On 8/16/2022 at 3:30 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Another idea I've seen floated around for future fire emblem games is that instead of Batallions being something you buy and equip, have each one be a Prf batallion specific to that character. And instead of a batallion leveling from 1 to 5 in a few chapters, have their "level" be that unit's authority level. Gaining more stats as authority increases. That way you have that separate progression system for each unit that further diversifies the roster. So let's say you've got your two christmas cavaliers. The green one's batallion grants additional attack speed and avoid, while Red's grants additional attack power and accuracy. Have an armor knight that gets a bunch of Res so he's not weak to mages, A "jagen" character who's strong because he's already possessing a high level batallion. Or having a "navarre" type of myrmidon with a pretty bad batallion (since he's a lone wolf) to make up for his high stats. Gambits can also play into that unit balancing if that returns as well. 

I'm not against Prf battalions, but if they're the only ones around, then it seems to remove the decision-making normally involved in assigning battalions. There's basically no reason not to field that unit's battalion, every single time.

Unless... what if we brought back fatigue, but only for battalions? Rather than "damage taken", it could be based on "combats participated in". So, if Wolt's battalion has an endurance of 5, and he finds himself in 6 fights in a given chapter, then he loses their aid for the next map. Wolt can still be fielded, but he won't have the benefit of a battalion. Battalion endurance could increase upon unit level-up or promotion, too.

Another potential penalty: in a game with the "Rescue" command, a Battalion could make its user impossible to be Rescued. It makes some sense - it's one thing to pick up one person, but another entirely to pick up all their teammates as well. Or, maybe Rescuing is possible, but doing so causes their Battalion to disappear for the rest of the map? Say, they all just fled back to base camp.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Quote

The Authority stars could be linked to the "Rankings" the player gets. So, better play provides an in-game reward. Of course, that could create an issue, if the metric measuring your performance also affects your performance...

Wow Today I Learned FE6 had a ranking system. I thought they ditched it. 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Unless... what if we brought back fatigue, but only for battalions? Rather than "damage taken", it could be based on "combats participated in". So, if Wolt's battalion has an endurance of 5, and he finds himself in 6 fights in a given chapter, then he loses their aid for the next map. Wolt can still be fielded, but he won't have the benefit of a battalion. Battalion endurance could increase upon unit level-up or promotion, too.

I'll be honest, I'd prefer fatigue exactly as it was in Thracia, at least when you select Classic mode. Because so much more effort goes into fire emblem characters these days. It's no longer just a character portrait, a recruitment dialogue, and making sure their sprite matches their hair color. Fatigue would prompt players to use more of a game's characters in a single playthrough and experience that content. God we need that Thracia Echoes game.

Quote

Another potential penalty: in a game with the "Rescue" command, a Battalion could make its user impossible to be Rescued. It makes some sense - it's one thing to pick up one person, but another entirely to pick up all their teammates as well. Or, maybe Rescuing is possible, but doing so causes their Battalion to disappear for the rest of the map? Say, they all just fled back to base camp.

This is a good idea for balancing, but in GBA Fire Emblem, a horse can pick up another horse, so it stands to reason it can pick up a human pyramid too. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn