Are dodge tanks too good?

[haarhaarhaar]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Can't think of anything. If everything is powerful, then none of it is. And the only things that aren't powerful are the stuff you've long since steered clear of, like Mortal Savant, Great Knight, and Holy Knight. I personally think the Advanced Classes matching the Master Classes ultimately makes for a more well rounded game, rather than a game where every unit wants to be the same thing.

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with your last line here, but we're obviously coming from very different places with regards to what makes something overpowered.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 9/4/2022 at 1:07 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

But now I've read your second attempt at a response and I'm seeing more of the same, with again no answer to the question. If trolling is not your intent, then surely you can see what that looks like from my perspective.

I think if you're interpreting other people's behaviour in this thread as trolling, that's on you. The fact that I was bothering to type up a lengthy response to you instead of doing something else with my time should be ample proof that I am engaging with this seriously. If someone's not responding to you, or responding the wrong parts of your post in your view, it's best to assume they're coming from a point of good faith (in my experience, the vast majority of regulars on Serenes are, one of the reasons I actually like discussing the game here) and just have a different impression about what the key points are. In that case, you can just politely point out things you'd like addressed.

 

On 9/4/2022 at 1:07 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Hitting level 20 by the start of chapter 9...

FWIW I was assuming end of chapter, and Level 20 is indeed what I think of for that chapter. Regardless, if you replace "20" with "18" the numbers drop by just over 1 point for Petra (considerably more for Raphael, who needs advanced bases). I was pointing out that 15 speed feels quite low for someone being raised as a dodgetank, which naturally tends to be speedy characters. Claude is the slowest character frequently suggested for the role.

On 9/4/2022 at 1:07 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

This is...a little outrageous to hear about your experience. Let me show you the numbers. Climbing from D Bows to B+ Bows takes 860 skill points (960 if you want to make a unit with E bows into a sniper, not a huge difference), and if you're lucky enough to have nabbed the goddess icon from chapter 3, that unit can potentially certify sooner if they hit 16 luck (Ignatz has an average 17 luck at level 20 if he spends no levels in archer, but it's a fairly big iff for most other units). Ignoring what it took to get to B flying for a moment (we really shouldn't), Climbing from B Flying to A+ flying takes 1080 skill points.

So let's assume our roster has a newly certified Sniper Ashe at the start of chapter 10, and a Petra that just attained B rank flying at the same time. Snipers, because of how much mastering the class matters for them compared to others at the level 20 range, are among the best candidates for a knowledge gem. But if you have none to spare, it will take 75 rounds of combat. The 1080 points in flying takes 216 rounds of combat without a knowledge gem on a unit with proficiency in Flying (with a knowledge gem, I think we're looking at 135 rounds? The knowledge gem would only double the +3, not the added +2 from Saint Statues, so compare that to the 38 of Sniper). It CAN be sped up via instruction sessions and group tasks, BUT if you intend to use this unit as a dodge tank BEFORE A+, you run into a big problem. Dismounted fliers don't gain a single point of flying exp. Only class and weapon exp. You've got to make them an adjutant. In which case they are contributing the absolute bare minimum to your team on those maps.

 

If Ashe is B+ bows, why is Petra only B flying? They both start at D with a boon. On the one hand, Ashe can train bows in battle prior to Level 10 (and if your dodgetank makes a detour to Brigand), but on the other flight duty exists. So if we lop 280 points (B->B+) the number is now 800. A Wyvern Rider with a boon gains 6 exp per action, so it's take 133 actions. That is indeed more than what Sniper needs (75) except... this isn't our only source of flying exp. We're still getting 24 per week if it's one of two goals, still getting ~48 per active instruct which targets it, still getting ~14 per week from flight duty. Assuming we tutor the character in 2 our of every 3 weeks (my usual default), it takes only 5 weeks (i.e. ~2 months) to make up the needed flying exp differential such that Alert Stance+ is attained at the same time as Hunter's Volley. Additionally, this is all assuming a Wyvern Rider and Sniper see an equal number of actions, which is unlikely to be the case, since a Wyvern both has a substantially easier time reaching enemies (and then positioning with future phases in mind) and has better stats to withstand hits on the enemy phase. Finally, this assumes that Ashe hit B+ and certified for Sniper immediately after, which is the most favourable possible moment to take the comparison - you might actually get more bow/flying exp after hitting B+ but before finishing the current battle and weekend, and passing a certification exam.

Now, you can quibble that you might want group tasks for something else, but to be perfectly honest by this stage in the game, flight duty to rush AS+ is by far the best use of a group task IMO. There's a case for armour early in the game (to get Weight-3 and armour knight certification) but the window for that has passed. Similarly, there's a case for riding to get people to Move+1, but I'd consider that a lower priority than Alert Stance+ myself.

Regarding which maps are challenging, well, it's mostly a tangent, but my thoughts:

• Chapter 2 is one that surprises me, I always find that the relatively easy early fight (excluding the prologue and aux fight obviously). I'm interested as to why our experiences are so different, since enemies there are almost incapable of one-rounding your units (outside, like, Lysithea) and you never face more than three at a time, so at worst you can kill two of them, tank the third, and mop up next turn, rinse and repeat. That said Chapter 2, like 1, is before your builds more or less (there's a tiny bit you can do like picking up Mire for Hubert and Tempest Lance on a couple more people), so not terribly relevant to this conversation.
• Chapter 8 is largely trivialized by Physic to keep the villagers alive plus fliers to reach the chests and other key objectives (two things I know from past discussions you use less than me, so that could be the difference?). Non-mages/fliers do sometimes struggle to be particularly useful there, though you can send a foot unit to go one-shot Jeritza with Knightkneeler Lance of Ruin if that's your fancy (otherwise, just avoid him, which is easy to do). The only tricky part of the fight is baiting Solon, who can potentially critical with Death, but there are several solutions to that (Impregnable Wall is the simplest).
• Paralogues... well, I noticed you mention Chapter 7. In case you didn't know, there's actually no reason to do any paralogues then: unlike every other month, the last week of Chapter 7 is not "free", as Chapter 8 begins with an instruct week before its first weekend. So you still need to recharge motivation then. Additionally, Chapter 8 gives you several new tools to make paralogues easier via the shop update: the Resonant Magic gambit, Impregnable Wall, and silver weapons. Otherwise, though, as I said, the tougher paralogues are trivialized by doing them later. None of them should put up much fight in Chapter 10-11 since you should have most units in Advanced classes, along with the Dancer. Felix's paralogue can be easily cheesed with a siege tome (don't need assembly, panel evade doesn't work against magic), but even if you want to fight it fair (I usually do), deploying units with Physic and quick-moving classes (enabled by Stride/Dance/etc.) to kill and/or drop gambits on enemies who might threaten Rodrigue takes care of things. Admittedly, this is a fight where dodgetanking doesn't help much, though, since almost none of the danger comes from your own units dying.

[henrymidfields]

As a person who thoroughly and unironically enjoyed dodgetanking in FE thanks to Binding Blade? They can NEVER be too good! Never ever! 😁 Long live dodgetanking~🎵!!!

[DaveCozy]

Short answer; yes, they are too good. 

On 8/30/2022 at 10:01 AM, lenticular said:

typically when you pick up Alert Stance+

Long answer: yes they are too good, but the fact that Alert Stance is a B and + is an A+ flying ability does limit their usefulness to a certain point of the game.

The one primary weakness that you still have to worry about with dodge-tanks too is gambits. Hit-rate for those also has a floor, which means it's still gonna be possible to get hit even with a dodge-tank that has a lot of charm.

I've been following some discussion here too and noted that winstate is a factor, not efficiency. I suppose if you don't mind spending a lot of turns dodging without doing a lot of damage, then yeah you can get away with it and eventually win. Personally though, I'd say that's what I actually find boring; specifically dodge-tanking without teeth. Doesn't sound fun to me to just play footsies with enemies for several turns when you could have used a dodge-tank that can also consistently crit back with each counterattack.

When I use dodge-tanks, I usually go for units that also have Battalion Wrath. So Petra, Hilda, Jeritza, etc. Vantage not really needed for dodge-tanks, because they're dodging anyways and then hitting back with a crit. No need to carefully watch your battalion HP and replenish it either, since you're dodge-tank is dodging anyways. Personally I find that to be the more fun way of dodge-tanking, versus using Sword Avoid +20 (which imo wastes your dancer) or going with a unit like Ingrid (ngl, I think she's better off using Battalion Desperation with Darting Blow and Death Blow for exclusive player-phase combat). This is all my playstyle preference though, just to be clear.

On 9/2/2022 at 12:20 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

• Wrath is gained by mastering a (bad) Advanced class. In my experience this takes longer than getting even Alert Stance+. Even assuming you gain them around the same time, though, there's the fact that Mercenary and Warrior are not good classes, while Pegasus Knight and Wyvern Rider are, which I don't consider a small thing myself when the biggest valid complaint about these builds is that they don't help you early.

Yes that is one thing that sucks about Wrath, Warrior takes too long to master. Only really worth going for it with characters that easily lean towards it imo, like Dedue.

Much more accessible if you ask me is Vantage + Battalion Wrath combo. It's also not without its flaws though, even having more downsides of maintaining your battalion HP as well, but it's a lot more accessible of a combo than either Wrath and Alert+ for a handful of units. So that's the more notable thing about it.

I think what I'm basically trying to say with everything I typed is that, yes dodge-tanking is busted, but it comes late and there's other things that can be just as busted too; even considering their drawbacks, I think it balances out by the fact that some combos can be gotten earlier.

Edited November 18, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Ari Chan]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:32 AM, DaveCozy said:

Yes that is one thing that sucks about Wrath, Warrior takes too long to master. Only really worth going for it with characters that easily lean towards it imo, like Dedue.

Much more accessible if you ask me is Vantage + Battalion Wrath combo. It's also not without its flaws though, even having more downsides of maintaining your battalion HP as well, but it's a lot more accessible of a combo than either Wrath and Alert+ for a handful of units. So that's the more notable thing about it.

Yeah I feel like you can throw Dedue in whatever classes (Warrior, Mercenary, Archer, etc) and he’ll still wreck stuffs cause of his high HP ATK DEF and good CA list (Vengeance and One-Two Punch), he pretty much has the easiest path to become a VanWrath unit and that setup also synergies with his Vengeance as well.

Vantage + Battalion Wrath best works on Hero since it requires little investment to create an emergency EP unit, it’s not worth using long-term though cause the players have to consistently maintain their battalion HP which can be annoying.

 

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Yeah I feel like you can throw Dedue in whatever classes (Warrior, Mercenary, Archer, etc) and he’ll still wreck stuffs cause of his high HP ATK DEF and good CA list (Vengeance and One-Two Punch), he pretty much has the easiest path to become a VanWrath unit and that setup also synergies with his Vengeance as well.

I'n not a fan of Vantage/Wrath as far as this game goes - it's too inconsistent.

On 11/18/2022 at 2:32 PM, DaveCozy said:

Much more accessible if you ask me is Vantage + Battalion Wrath combo. It's also not without its flaws though, even having more downsides of maintaining your battalion HP as well, but it's a lot more accessible of a combo than either Wrath and Alert+ for a handful of units. So that's the more notable thing about it.

Honestly, I consider Vantage/Battalion Wrath to be legit terrible. It takes the worst of both worlds, considering you need to take damage to get in Vantage range... which means your battalion is also taking damage. The result is that you would have to set it up again constantly. Like every other fight constantly.