When you realize that Edelgard is the only female lord not to make the cut.

[Troykv]

On 12/9/2022 at 6:48 AM, henrymidfields said:

Oh for fuck's sake what the fuck have we been discussing lol??? 😅🤣

On a more serious note:

At least it would have been much better if the portrayal was much different. If the main focus was actually on Micaiah, and other important female figures like Sanaki and Elincia, the narrative would have been truly groundbreaking and might even have made RD the absolute gold standard. Anacybele had some discussion about this, and I'm linking that here.

I would also have accepted a less drastic change in gameplay. Have Ike return, but actually have him be portrayed as a political pawn by Begnion, and he has to constantly do their bidding, otherwise Crimea is in danger of being annexed. And both Elincia and Ike really hate this, but Ike's skill doesn't extend to politics, Elincia was nearly assassinated numerous times as a implicit threat of what will the Senators do if Ike steps out of line, and their other friends and allies are also blackmailed by the Senators. And Ike and Elincia has to constantly deal with them (at least more cutscenes to make this lack of political power more explicit) and the main soldiers from Begnion they are backing, throwing their weight around. So he has no choice but to participate in the occupation of Daein, while trying to mitigate the damage Begnion is doing. And he gets scapegoated at every turn thanks to propaganda from both sides. The Daeins scapegoat him as someone who destroyed their country, the Begnions (and the Senators in particular) despise him for not putting down the proverbial "GOP-style Law and Order", and Ike's allies understandably also resent him for not standing up to the Senators. Eventually, Ike learns how he can't preserve the peace and can't keep the Begnion chauvinists off Crimea, that so many typical Lords are able to do, because, surprise, real-life politics gets in the way. Disillusioned from all of this, Ike learns the painful lesson of how "the Great Man Theory" just doesn't work at all in Tellius (or in real life), and thus led to disbanding his merc crew and the as-per-canon decision to leave Tellius. Ike is hailed as a hero, but he ends up as a mentally broken and cynical man, he ends up having to break off a number of his friendships while his other friendships have not been the same either. That would have been a good narrative too.

I definitely agree Micaiah needed more time in the spotlight, poor girl had the misfortune of being the new main character of Radiant Dawn; the one game that hates mages and has to share spotlight with Ike, that despite being basically a Living Legend in universe, still gets a ton of playable protagonist real state.

[henrymidfields]

11 hours ago, Troykv said:

I definitely agree Micaiah needed more time in the spotlight, poor girl had the misfortune of being the new main character of Radiant Dawn; the one game that hates mages and has to share spotlight with Ike, that despite being basically a Living Legend in universe, still gets a ton of playable protagonist real state.

And that's one big reason (alongside with there being no legit way to get the Tellius games without having to pay $$$) why I eventually decided to skip the Tellius duology. A bad case of false advertising.

Edited December 17, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Jotari]

It's not even Ike that even truly replaces Micaiah. Ike and the Micaiah character model have pretty equal standing in the finale. And Micaiah is actually playable in more chapters of the game than Ike. It's Yune who is the real culprit, hijacking Micaiah's entire character in the last quarter.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

I mean, Part 3 was clearly Micaiah being thrown shade in favor of Ike by shoving her into an antagonistic role against him, so to say he's completely free of hijacking (in the sense the narrative is siding with him by making him the clear good guy while Micaiah has to struggle with negative story beats thrown her way) is also not quite right.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Could the Dawn Brigade use more chapters? Sure. But Micaiah is the secondary protagonist, and I find the notion that the actual protagonist hijacked her story insulting. They both had arcs to tell, they both did, and that's for the best.

 

An actual example of story and representation hijacking is Lucina for Chrom's story.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Could the Dawn Brigade use more chapters? Sure. But Micaiah is the secondary protagonist, and I find the notion that the actual protagonist hijacked her story insulting. They both had arcs to tell, they both did, and that's for the best.

I mean, in that case Ike should've just be the protagonist from the start, like with Marth. Instead of doing this "fake-out" by giving us Micaiah and Elincia in lead roles before being placed into secondary roles once Ike reenters the picture (and worse for Micaiah, an antagonistic role). More so since Ike already had PoR to be the main protagonist, and even Elincia had a secondary role there already, but Micaiah had nothing to draw from PoR instead looking like she'll be the main protagonist of RD, before that coming to an end due to the POV shifts. Perhaps hijacking isn't the proper word for this, but it's clear some shoving aside happened.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, in that case Ike should've just be the protagonist from the start, like with Marth. Instead of doing this "fake-out" by giving us Micaiah and Elincia in lead roles before being placed into secondary roles once Ike reenters the picture (and worse for Micaiah, an antagonistic role). More so since Ike already had PoR to be the main protagonist, and even Elincia had a secondary role there already, but Micaiah had nothing to draw from PoR instead looking like she'll be the main protagonist of RD, before that coming to an end due to the POV shifts. Perhaps hijacking isn't the proper word for this, but it's clear some shoving aside happened.

It's a misdiagnosed issue. Radiant Dawn's problem is that the Dawn Brigade as a whole is not given room to develop as characters, because they're the new faces in a game with no supports.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

It's a misdiagnosed issue. Radiant Dawn's problem is that the Dawn Brigade as a whole is not given room to develop as characters, because they're the new faces in a game with no supports.

Which could've been mitigated if they had remained the focus protagonists all game long, instead of shifting back to the old characters.

[Fabulously Olivier]

24 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Which could've been mitigated if they had remained the focus protagonists all game long, instead of shifting back to the old characters.

Which wouldn't have made for a better game, and isn't the direction they should have gone.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

Which wouldn't have made for a better game, and isn't the direction they should have gone.

That's debatable. We don't know even what direction it would've gone to already judge it as worse than what we actually got.

[Sunwoo]

The problem with RD in terms of old characters vs. new characters is the time skip -- it's only three years. You can't completely ignore the returning PoR cast because it would be poor storytelling. Why did all these characters who were involved in past events all disappear off the face of the world? Why are they ignoring the very real issues affecting them? What are they even doing with their lives?

While I don't think literally every PoR character necessarily has to return (you could've easily written out characters like Nephenee or Brom or Calil by saying they settled down and want nothing more to do with war, for example, or Stefan continues to have no idea anything happened), the Greil Mercenaries are hard to ignore completely. Whether it's Bastian hiring them to deal with internal issues in Crimea or Ranulf asking for their support in war or Sanaki appointing Ike commander of her army, they've made a name for themselves amongst people high up in politics. People with money want to hire them, and the Greil Mercenaries are not going to say no to friends if they believe in the cause.

Part 1 being a very rushed and condensed PoR is honestly kind of the issue here. Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade are presented as a scrappy resistance group that's supposed to take back their country from oppressors under the banner of the dead king's unknown child, like PoR. But PoR was a full length game while part 1 is basically the abridged version.

I actually still have some genuine issues with Micaiah's character and Daein as a country. Even now, I feel that it's weird how the people basically worshipped her when Micaiah's deeds were no different than that of any FE lord taking back their home. Seliph, the only other character who gets anything close to this, handles it a bit better. He says that the people are desperate for a savior and he's worried that he won't live up to their expectations. With Micaiah, it came off more as the people were fanatics rather than desperate people whose opinions could turn on a dime if they felt you had failed them.

Keeping the Dawn Brigade as the focus protagonists could have worked, but the story would need to change drastically. Because the world that RD built up does not allow for a Crimea or a Sanaki fighting on the "wrong" side of the war. But it leaves Daein completely open to fighting on the wrong side of the war, whether because you have a leadership that is naive and easily manipulated or people who've never been taught to see laguz as fellow living beings. In an RD where part 2 exists as it does now, it is difficult to throw Elincia's character development out the window and have her lose her throne soon after to an ambitious no-name noble who joins the Senators against the laguz. And Micaiah is presented as a character who is a Daein patriot through-and-through, and as long as Daein is safe is fine if the rest of the world goes to hell.

My post is getting a bit long, but all I'm saying is that I don't think it's fair to pin all of RD's issues and Micaiah's lack of spotlight on Ike. Yes, I agree that RD Ike isn't the best character. I do think it would've been better to put a character with an actual arc as the main protagonist. But this is less a problem with Ike and more of a problem with FE's inherent sexism when it comes to female lords and male lords. There's a reason why the dudes tend to upstage their female counterparts in either relevance or "badassery". The people in charge of writing the story don't seem to believe that women can save the world like a man. Ike overshadowing Micaiah is a symptom of the disease, and the problem was baked in long before there ever was a story. Whoever wrote RD never saw it as Micaiah's story to begin with.

[Acacia Sgt]

25 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

The problem with RD in terms of old characters vs. new characters is the time skip -- it's only three years. You can't completely ignore the returning PoR cast because it would be poor storytelling. Why did all these characters who were involved in past events all disappear off the face of the world? Why are they ignoring the very real issues affecting them? What are they even doing with their lives?

While I don't think literally every PoR character necessarily has to return (you could've easily written out characters like Nephenee or Brom or Calil by saying they settled down and want nothing more to do with war, for example, or Stefan continues to have no idea anything happened), the Greil Mercenaries are hard to ignore completely. Whether it's Bastian hiring them to deal with internal issues in Crimea or Ranulf asking for their support in war or Sanaki appointing Ike commander of her army, they've made a name for themselves amongst people high up in politics. People with money want to hire them, and the Greil Mercenaries are not going to say no to friends if they believe in the cause.

Personally I'd say it's quite doable. Precisely because the mercs already made a name for themselves means it'd be easy to keep them away from the story, only showing up for big moments like the end of Part 2. It's a simple of a matter as having the mercs doing a job in Begnion when the war begins, and either can't get out of the country because it's in a high sense of alert (specially since the war happened mostly in the areas that bordered other countries for Begnion)... or get hired into the whole "free the Apostle and get her to Alliance territory", thus not showing up for the war itself until the tail-end.

25 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

  Hide contents

I actually still have some genuine issues with Micaiah's character and Daein as a country. Even now, I feel that it's weird how the people basically worshipped her when Micaiah's deeds were no different than that of any FE lord taking back their home. Seliph, the only other character who gets anything close to this, handles it a bit better. He says that the people are desperate for a savior and he's worried that he won't live up to their expectations. With Micaiah, it came off more as the people were fanatics rather than desperate people whose opinions could turn on a dime if they felt you had failed them.

Spoiler

I think it's because most other lords don't have abilities like Micaiah's Branded derived powers. Even for FE, they're quite set apart, for even other Branded don't get powers like Micaiah's, combined that she's the only Heron Branded that is currently alive. Add to that Izuka's PR campaign might've also overblown things a bit for the sake of propaganda. By the end of Part 1, Micaiah has spearheaded and brought forth the end of three years of brutal occupation from Begnion. All combined, you get a very zealous population rallying under her banner as a result. Hence the fanatism that persists even by late Part 3, when Micaiah isn't able to stop the Alliance from advancing.

25 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Keeping the Dawn Brigade as the focus protagonists could have worked, but the story would need to change drastically. Because the world that RD built up does not allow for a Crimea or a Sanaki fighting on the "wrong" side of the war. But it leaves Daein completely open to fighting on the wrong side of the war, whether because you have a leadership that is naive and easily manipulated or people who've never been taught to see laguz as fellow living beings. In an RD where part 2 exists as it does now, it is difficult to throw Elincia's character development out the window and have her lose her throne soon after to an ambitious no-name noble who joins the Senators against the laguz. And Micaiah is presented as a character who is a Daein patriot through-and-through, and as long as Daein is safe is fine if the rest of the world goes to hell.

Even without doing big changes to the story, it's still doable I'd say. I've mentioned this before in various thread across Serenes by now, but one good example is ditching the Blood Pact. Begnion tries to get Daein to join the war the old fashioned way, but the three years of oppressive occupation are still fresh in the Daeins' minds, so they tell Begnion to shove it. Then get a vengeful Numida angry he can't get Daein under his thumb again, and he attacks them. Thus a two-front war starts. The Laguz Alliance and Daein are not allies, but have Begnion as a common enemy... until both sides have pushed Begnion back enough to meet, and the Laguz-Beorc enmity surfaces, turning the war into a three-way conflict. Part 4 doesn't care for the details as it is, so it's still doable to reach situation like Part 3's endgame.

Though on the subject, it'd have been a fascinating scenario if the Senate had gotten Crimea under their thumb with a Blood Pact, also taking advantage that Elincia was also kinda unprepared to just take the throne, since she also spent most of her life sheltered. Not too disimilar of a situation to Pelleas, except she knew of her royal heritage. While ironically Daein is the one free to do as they please once they throw Begnion out.

But well, these are all stuff you can only hope to see in fanfiction, since RD already exists. Still, it's interesting to ponder the possibilities...

25 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

My post is getting a bit long, but all I'm saying is that I don't think it's fair to pin all of RD's issues and Micaiah's lack of spotlight on Ike. Yes, I agree that RD Ike isn't the best character. I do think it would've been better to put a character with an actual arc as the main protagonist. But this is less a problem with Ike and more of a problem with FE's inherent sexism when it comes to female lords and male lords. There's a reason why the dudes tend to upstage their female counterparts in either relevance or "badassery". The people in charge of writing the story don't seem to believe that women can save the world like a man. Ike overshadowing Micaiah is a symptom of the disease, and the problem was baked in long before there ever was a story. Whoever wrote RD never saw it as Micaiah's story to begin with.

I agree. Hence my point that while true Ike isn't 100% at fault, one cannot say it's 0% either, even if it's mostly as an instrument of being used to sideline her. Precisely because FE doesn't have of a good track record when having both male and females lords in the same game. I'd even say one of their best examples was Gaiden (not SoV, mind, but Gaiden), which is... kinda sad, really.

[Jotari]

Much as I love Radiant Dawn talk, this seems to be hugely off topic for Edelgard's role in Engage. Perhaps a new thread specifically talking about Micaiah's role in her own game?

[NeonZ]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's not even Ike that even truly replaces Micaiah. Ike and the Micaiah character model have pretty equal standing in the finale. And Micaiah is actually playable in more chapters of the game than Ike. It's Yune who is the real culprit, hijacking Micaiah's entire character in the last quarter.

I'd say it's a combination of both in the final part.

Spoiler

Ike obviously takes the spotlight, and Yune further shafts Micaiah by taking all her screentime outside of battles.

Ike getting the goodbye scene with Yune and suddenly saying they need gods for inspiration makes zero sense for example. It's just there because he's effectively the protagonist, not just -one- of the protagonists. And don't forget the final blow has to be started by Ike, even though it's supposed to be about Yune channeling her powers, so they easily could have allowed Micaiah to do it too.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by NeonZ

[vanguard333]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Much as I love Radiant Dawn talk, this seems to be hugely off topic for Edelgard's role in Engage. Perhaps a new thread specifically talking about Micaiah's role in her own game?

I was just about to say this. As much as I am very tempted to respond to some of the arguments that have been brought up about Micaiah and Radiant Dawn, I think it would be for the best if this thread got back on-topic.

 

One thing I find funny about the DLC announcement is that, if they had waited a few months, or even if the announcement said that the DLC would be available a few months after release, no one would've really suspected anything, as it would've been assumed that the DLC is indeed bonus content that was made after the base game was finished. But, because they announced it a month before release, and then announced at the end of the video that the DLC will be available in the same month as the base game's release, the overwhelming opinion online seems to instead be one of suspicion, apprehension and disappointment. For example, the top comments under the video on YouTube include the following:

Quote

"I really liked it when games didn't start selling you DLC before they even release the base game."

"In one hand I'm glad there's DLC, in the other hand it feels really slimy for them to announce dlc before the game is even released."

"could we just have a complete game for once!"

So... yeah; all Nintendo had to do was wait, but instead, announcing the DLC when they did seems to have largely backfired, at least in terms of public opinion. We'll obviously have to wait until the base game and DLC release, which won't be too long since they're releasing within the same month, to see if it actually backfired in any way in terms of sales. The answer to that is probably "not likely", due to the House Leaders being fan-favourites and overall very popular characters.

[Mirron]

It doesn’t help that the Bracelets seem pretty good mechanically too. Even if you don’t like the characters so long as you aren’t actively disliking them you have motivation enough to buy them. 

It would definitely be nice if they didn’t do it so soon, even if it’s just a perception matter. I still remember how people got upset about a fighting game having characters on disc even and just needing to be unlocked online, but that time has passed and it looks like early DLC is just here to stay. 

I do think this solution is better than Edelgard alone, or even the three Lords as one in the base game. Byleth just is a better rep for Three Houses ultimately. Three Lords as one would work better than any alone but I like Byleth doing the flexibility thing.

[NeonZ]

I wonder how the bond quotes work with these characters that have multiple in one ring/bracelet though...

Edited January 3, 2023 by NeonZ

[Mirron]

Ideally they’re all present in varying ways. I’m doubtful of that though. Could rotate or vary depending on who the person trying to bond is too.

[DefyingFates]

On 1/3/2023 at 1:19 AM, NeonZ said:

I wonder how the bond quotes work with these characters that have multiple in one ring/bracelet though...

I don't think we saw an option to switch who the starting Emblem was for the 3H Bracelet, but on the other hand I really hope IS isn't naive enough to assume that having Edelgard be the only one anyone can talk to of the three Lords isn't going to cause trouble. I really don't know how that would play out, to be honest. The same goes for Eirika/ Ephraim, but since they're in the base game we can at least hope those two are fleshed out more.