What are your thoughts on Alear?

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say, both Alear look fine to me. Sure, still a bit early to fully tell on what their character will be, but I doubt I'd truly be disappointed with the end result. I've yet to be when it comes to FE, anyway.

Actually, this is what it is said, in SD's Prologue II:

Elice:
If something befalls Father, Marth will become the last person in the entire world worthy of wielding the Falchion.

It's similar to the Japanese script:
"If something should happen to his father, Mars is the only male member of the Alithia royal family. He will be the world's only heir to the sacred sword, Pharcyon." (Translated with DeepL)

Which is... odd to say the least. Then again, they did ensure every princess could use Aum when reclassed, so Elice still not being able to use Falchion must've been deliberate, then.

Considering Falchion was broken, reforged, and re-blessed, it's clear that the conditions to wield Falchion changed during the two thousand year gap between Marth and Chrom's times.

Ah, I was just checking the original games (NES and SNES), not the remake (which I guess shows they didn't have any solid plans for Awakening when they were making Shadow Dragon, though we already knew that with the whole "set on Mars" original pitch). I don't believe Falchion is ever said to have been broken and reforged in Awakening, the only difference is the hilt. The users of Falchion themselves seem to have been altered in some way at the time of the first exalt given Marth doesn't have a brand yet Chrom's family does. Though it's also incredible questionable why Naga would even impart sexism into her sword when she herself is a woman. The simplest explanation is that women just plain can wield Falchion at Marth's time and it's just a case that in the three or four generations Falchion has been around at that point no woman had ever tried. I would have liked if a reclassed Elice could use Falchion in Shadow Dragon, not that it would have been at all practical or useful given her low strength, impossible leveling join time and Falchion's own suckiness in Shadow Dragon. But nice nonetheless.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Ah, I was just checking the original games (NES and SNES), not the remake (which I guess shows they didn't have any solid plans for Awakening when they were making Shadow Dragon, though we already knew that with the whole "set on Mars" original pitch). I don't believe Falchion is ever said to have been broken and reforged in Awakening, the only difference is the hilt. The users of Falchion themselves seem to have been altered in some way at the time of the first exalt given Marth doesn't have a brand yet Chrom's family does. Though it's also incredible questionable why Naga would even impart sexism into her sword when she herself is a woman. The simplest explanation is that women just plain can wield Falchion at Marth's time and it's just a case that in the three or four generations Falchion has been around at that point no woman had ever tried. I would have liked if a reclassed Elice could use Falchion in Shadow Dragon, not that it would have been at all practical or useful given her low strength, impossible leveling join time and Falchion's own suckiness in Shadow Dragon. But nice nonetheless.

Naga was not the one who did the original binding with Anri, that was Gotoh. Naga would then impart her own blessing during Grima's first rampage.

I've always headcanon Marth lacked a brand because Gotoh did the ritual long after he discarded his dragonstone. Ergo, he's not at full power, so the blessing is weaker. So no brand, and why outside Falchion itself, Anri and his kin didn't seem to gain an actual powerup, unlike every other case of dragon blood binding.

[Jotari]

28 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Naga was not the one who did the original binding with Anri, that was Gotoh. Naga would then impart her own blessing during Grima's first rampage.

I've always headcanon Marth lacked a brand because Gotoh did the ritual long after he discarded his dragonstone. Ergo, he's not at full power, so the blessing is weaker. So no brand, and why outside Falchion itself, Anri and his kin didn't seem to gain an actual powerup, unlike every other case of dragon blood binding.

Still would be an odd limitation on it for Gotoh, either because he somehow can't attach it to two X chromosomes or chooses not to. Course somehow Falchion manages to pass on to Anri's brothers line rather than his own which makes almost no sense.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

Still would be an odd limitation on it for Gotoh, either because he somehow can't attach it to two X chromosomes or chooses not to. Course somehow Falchion manages to pass on to Anri's brothers line rather than his own which makes almost no sense.

Well, this only applies to the DS remakes since the line only exist there. Then again, it is the DS remakes that make up the current canon, no?

Yeah, the brother bit is still unknown how that worked, unless Gotoh went over and did the ritual with him too.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, this only applies to the DS remakes since the line only exist there. Then again, it is the DS remakes that make up the current canon, no?

Yeah, the brother bit is still unknown how that worked, unless Gotoh went over and did the ritual with him too.

Well yes, it was always a moot point before that as Elice doesn't have the capacity to wield swords in Shadow Dragon NES or Old Mystery (and actually doesn't have the opportunity in New Mystery? As I don't think you can reclass her because she comes in the final chapter, unless you can for multi player battles, if New Mystery even retained that feature; I can't remember). While I wouldn't say it was a retcon, since it's not addressed either way in the first two games, it is a bit funny that they established women can't use Falchion (or at least one woman thinks she can't) and then almost immediately went and created a game where a woman wields that very same Falchion. Course this is also the game that gender locked Aura to women despite it being created by a man and definitely being used by a man in the backstory, so who knows what they were smoking.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jotari

[Cysx]

The biggest thing I can say is that... I mean, are they even an avatar/self-insert anymore? At this point we presumably can't customize their looks or their class, and they're not mute. Shez barely qualified to begin with even as 3Hopes was very lax with reclassing, which, again, doesn't seem to be the case here. They even seem to have a pretty involved backstory, and the world actually revolves around them instead of the other characters deciding to act that way for next to no reason. Isn't there a line at some point?

As for the rest...
Well the hair is just bad, which is unfortunate because if you only focus on one side it looks pretty good; in fact full red hair blue eyes Alear would have likely had one of my favorite lord designs yet. Alas. The rest I like, though I wish female Alear didn't look so young.

... it's worth mentioning though, that their appearance alone is likely keeping most of the "well this new FE looks boring" complaints at bay. So in a sense it's a blessing in disguise because, man do these get grating. Yet at the same time, to the outside world just skimming through the Nintendo news, we're all looking like a bunch of weaboos again. Ah well.

Characterization seems almost suspiciously generic, and I'm starting to wonder if we're not being baited by IS right now, but we'll see.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Cysx

[B.Leu]

Alear is activating alarms in my brain- wee-ooo-wee-ooo-wee-ooo- that's what.

Bad design, spesshial hair, Dragon Child, Chosen One, worshipped as a god, now if I could remember where I saw that....

Well okay, I do like their armor, and MAltear's hair isn't so bad.

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

and they're not mute

So Kris, Robin and Corrin aren't self inserts, but Byleth is, that's what you are saying? 😛

[Cysx]

1 hour ago, B.Leu said:

Alear is activating alarms in my brain- wee-ooo-wee-ooo-wee-ooo- that's what.

Bad design, spesshial hair, Dragon Child, Chosen One, worshipped as a god, now if I could remember where I saw that....

Well okay, I do like their armor, and MAltear's hair isn't so bad.

So Kris, Robin and Corrin aren't self inserts, but Byleth is, that's what you are saying? 😛

Ne me force pas à te combattre en français, morbleu !

Nah, all I'm saying is, that's one avatar-friendly factor(in Fire Emblem or otherwise) among others that could be there but isn't. And yes there's precedent in Byleth.

[joevar]

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

avatar/self-insert anymore?

i would say yes. at least from the only trailer we got, its a confirmation we will play from Alear POV. and as i mentioned before, even voiced, this could very well be byleth just "voiced in dialogue" which means they could/would be referred with third person term all the time to avoid putting gender when calling/referring them, in line with how you can choose their gender but it wont change anything toward the plot, sub-plot, or even support. then the choose your gender will boils down to player preference. hence this is proof Alear is avatar/self-insert

"but they could surprise all later!" yes, im saying for now

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

three or four generations Falchion has been around at that point no woman had ever tried.

did any of Marth game tells that?

21 hours ago, Jotari said:

Are they going to do that? No, I highly doubt it. But likewise if they go back to a designated gender for protagonists, I doubt they're going to dive into a story about what it means to be a man or a woman in society.

yes, i wholeheartedly agree with that notion. alright lets scratch that about defining a man and woman in society story. i didnt even think about going that far when writing the first post. i just want better written POV character, and this is something IS has done several times before.  i mean, even if you really hate the idea of story where gender get mentioned at all, can you really said that when IS introduce "choose your gender" POV character, the overall writing quality of said POV character didnt drop drop? 

didnt thought putting i want "female lord" because i want to sound less misogynistic could spark a debate. maybe i should have just come clean and said i want Roy 2.0 or Ike 2.5 😂

Edited September 24, 2022 by joevar

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Considering Falchion was broken, reforged, and re-blessed, it's clear that the conditions to wield Falchion changed during the two thousand year gap between Marth and Chrom's times.

Falchion hasn't been broken and reforged though; the blade (the part that was forged from one of Naga's fangs) has remained completely intact all the way to Awakening, while the handle (the part that's made of ordinary metal) has needed to be repaired and replaced over the generations. At least, that was the official explanation for the falchion looking different in Awakening.

 

3 hours ago, B.Leu said:

Alear is activating alarms in my brain- wee-ooo-wee-ooo-wee-ooo- that's what.

Bad design, spesshial hair, Dragon Child, Chosen One, worshipped as a god, now if I could remember where I saw that....

I don't remember Corrin's hair being special, mainly because their hair was customizable.

I know you're talking about Byleth, but I wouldn't really consider Byleth to be a "dragon child"; they're the son of a human and a homunculus. Outside of having a crest stone inside them, there isn't really anything "dragon" about them.

[Jotari]

47 minutes ago, joevar said:

did any of Marth game tells that?

No, course not. I said that was the simplest explanation for the incongruity.

47 minutes ago, joevar said:

yes, i wholeheartedly agree with that notion. alright lets scratch that about defining a man and woman in society story. i didnt even think about going that far when writing the first post. i just want better written POV character, and this is something IS has done several times before.  i mean, even if you really hate the idea of story where gender get mentioned at all, can you really said that when IS introduce "choose your gender" POV character, the overall writing quality of said POV character didnt drop drop? 

didnt thought putting i want "female lord" because i want to sound less misogynistic could spark a debate. maybe i should have just come clean and said i want Roy 2.0 or Ike 2.5 😂

We all want better written characters, I just don't think eliminating the gender choice is going to magically make that happen (because it didn't with Alm).

[Hawkwing]

Design-wise, Alear falls pretty hard into the "so bad, it's good" camp for me, to the point I hope there is some customization to make them look even more ridiculous. And hey, I'll take some dumb looking hair over Corrins thigh windows or whatever the hell Female Byleth was wearing.

The "thousand year old divine dragon" schtick has me concerned because we got avatar worship over less notable setups. At the same time, avatar worship and similar issues has been a constant critique of previous games, so I hope the writers address it this time around. The story so far seems straightforward enough that I hope they either have some neat twists in there or just have fun with Alear being a dragon.

Speaking of which, if the game's tone leans towards the lighthearted side, please for the love of God, have fun with the protagonist being a dragon and let me choose how the comedy plays out! If Alear learns how to breath fire, let us choose whether they're terrified about puking up flames or if they think that's awesome or if their first thought is "I can make s'mores on the go!" or something like that. If they grow wings want to practice how to fly, let us pick if they jump off something comically small or comically large or just see it as an excuse to jump on the bed without judgement or some other silliness. Allow us to decide if Alear finds having a tail or claws or sharp teeth to be ugly or badass or a mild annoyance or whatever. I am willing to forgive some conversations ultimately going nowhere if they're incredibly entertaining to go through.

[Acacia Sgt]

When it comes about the Avatar/Self-Insert aspect... honestly, when have they? Other than Mark, even if we can change stuff about them, at the end of the day they were all still characters of their own right, with their own personalities (good or bad as they were), backstories, reactions to the story itself, etc. Not really much room for RP being them, as it is. It would've been neat if the whole "past/present/future aspects" thing of Kris would've actually molded them, but I suppose it was too complex to do at the time, hence Kris ultimately still being the same no matter what.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well yes, it was always a moot point before that as Elice doesn't have the capacity to wield swords in Shadow Dragon NES or Old Mystery (and actually doesn't have the opportunity in New Mystery? As I don't think you can reclass her because she comes in the final chapter, unless you can for multi player battles, if New Mystery even retained that feature; I can't remember). While I wouldn't say it was a retcon, since it's not addressed either way in the first two games, it is a bit funny that they established women can't use Falchion (or at least one woman thinks she can't) and then almost immediately went and created a game where a woman wields that very same Falchion. Course this is also the game that gender locked Aura to women despite it being created by a man and definitely being used by a man in the backstory, so who knows what they were smoking.

Well, they also gave a reason as to why that got changed for Awakening, in light of what the DS games did.

Didn't Warriors actually tried to come up with an explanation for that one? About Miloah leaving an imprint of his on the tome (like what Forseti and Loptous did) and thus that maybe had something to do with it, due to his desire to prevent Gharnef from using it and that part of his will being left imprinted on the tome. So at least they tried.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Falchion hasn't been broken and reforged though; the blade (the part that was forged from one of Naga's fangs) has remained completely intact all the way to Awakening, while the handle (the part that's made of ordinary metal) has needed to be repaired and replaced over the generations. At least, that was the official explanation for the falchion looking different in Awakening.

That's what I meant, though admittedly it wasn't relevant to bring up. Only the part about Naga replacing Gotoh's blood bind with her own. Thus new rules about who gets to use Falchion.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Kori]

Setting aside the fact that we know they can adjust the dialogue when they think a character's gender should affect things (if Awakening doesn't count as an example because M!Robin and F!Robin are different characters on a mechanical level, there's still the tactician's gender causing minor dialogue changes in Blazing Sword), "there is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' personality", "gender affects some aspects of characters' lives and how they develop as people", "IS isn't interested in telling that kind of story in depth", and "the problem with the avatar characters/the characters they want the player to project on (phrased this way to include Alm) isn't that they don't commit to a gender, but that they don't want to commit to anything that could rub someone the wrong way lest it stops them from appealing to the largest possible audience" are all true statements that don't contradict each other.

On Alear, I'm getting used to the hair (but not the boob pockets.), but I agree that "you are a divine dragon that people have been waiting to wake up and already admire" is not a promising start if one doesn't want a game full of empty praise. Here's hoping they'll at least be endearing enough to make playing as them enjoyable.

(Oh, and i wonder if their japanese name is confirmed (though it must be, the info must come from somewhere), because if it is, then IS doesn't know how to write Lueur.)

Edited September 24, 2022 by Kori

[B.Leu]

7 hours ago, Cysx said:

Ne me force pas à te combattre en français, morbleu !

Nah, all I'm saying is, that's one avatar-friendly factor(in Fire Emblem or otherwise) among others that could be there but isn't. And yes there's precedent in Byleth.

Plutôt en Mortal Français..... yeah no, my joke is bad and I feel bad.

Obviously, while Byleth's sueishness is really toned down, centuries compared to the like of Corrin and Kris, it is still a bit there, see below. 

5 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I don't remember Corrin's hair being special, mainly because their hair was customizable.

I know you're talking about Byleth, but I wouldn't really consider Byleth to be a "dragon child"; they're the son of a human and a homunculus. Outside of having a crest stone inside them, there isn't really anything "dragon" about them.

Actually, I was talking about Corrin. Byleth had the decency of not being the center of the universe. (to the point where I would argue it's a bit strange that people who are in the known doesn't try to learn more but who care there) Except when they insisted of making them stand in the middle of the students, so they could talk and you could be really attached to them. They even did that in Three Hopes!

Or are you telling me that my Green haired Corrin isn't special? I should I gave them purple hair.

[vanguard333]

5 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Actually, I was talking about Corrin. Byleth had the decency of not being the center of the universe. (to the point where I would argue it's a bit strange that people who are in the known doesn't try to learn more but who care there) Except when they insisted of making them stand in the middle of the students, so they could talk and you could be really attached to them. They even did that in Three Hopes!

Or are you telling me that my Green haired Corrin isn't special? I should I gave them purple hair.

Oh; okay. I guess I just assumed you were talking about Byleth because "special hair" and because of someone else's reply. My bad. I completely agree that Byleth at least wasn't the center of the universe (at least not in the routes I've completed; I have yet to complete Silver Snow).

I didn't say your green-haired Corrin isn't special; I said that your green-haired Corrin's green hair isn't special since it was a customization option.

 

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's what I meant, though admittedly it wasn't relevant to bring up. Only the part about Naga replacing Gotoh's blood bind with her own. Thus new rules about who gets to use Falchion.

Oh. Okay then.

[Seazas]

Yeah Alear's design is whatever for me, I don't mind it. What I'm worried about is the divine dragon having amnesia trait. That seems like a one way ticket to having Alear be extremely boring. That'd be a major step back from Shez. 

[Sunwoo]

Regardless of whether or not it is "technically correct terminology", I'd still call the likes of Kris, Robin, Corrin, Byleth, Shez, and (as of now) Alear avatars/self-inserts.

Yes, it's true that they pretty much all have an established personality, background, and not a lot of things you the player can actually influence. But we can choose whether they are male or female. In a game that has class customization/swapping, they have more freedom than the others (Robin can reclass into anything their gender permits, Corrin's secondary class can be chosen by the player). We can even change their name. So clearly they're not a fully established character like Chrom or Lyn or Marth would be.

IS is clearly making it possible for players who wish to self-insert into the story to step into the shoes of this character and have them as a substitute for themselves. And ... well, there's a LOT of people who project themselves onto each of the avatars and the Heroes summoner. You cannot step into any modern FE or Heroes fanfiction community without being barraged by avatar/favorite character ships.

So even if they're not "technically avatars", the term still applies. They're made so that people who want to project themselves into the story are able to do so through this character.

(Also, I did read through the comment about Marth and Falchion. I just don't have much else to add, other than I'm just relieved I'm not going insane because I could've sworn I remembered hearing that women couldn't wield Falchion. It's honestly not too much of a shocker, this is the same universe where Aum, Aura, and maybe Lady Sword are inexplicably locked to women.)

[AnonymousSpeed]

I don't get what benefit we derive from arguing so much about what does and doesn't count as an avatar.

[PrincessAlyson]

I'm really fond of Alear so far. The designs are so outrageous that I find them cute. As I've said on other threads, I hope Alear being a dragon is actually relevant to the overall plot, unlike poor Corrin, whose transformation was only plot relevant for one chapter (and Revelation Route, kinda). 

11 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

Design-wise, Alear falls pretty hard into the "so bad, it's good" camp for me, to the point I hope there is some customization to make them look even more ridiculous. And hey, I'll take some dumb looking hair over Corrins thigh windows or whatever the hell Female Byleth was wearing.

The "thousand year old divine dragon" schtick has me concerned because we got avatar worship over less notable setups. At the same time, avatar worship and similar issues has been a constant critique of previous games, so I hope the writers address it this time around. The story so far seems straightforward enough that I hope they either have some neat twists in there or just have fun with Alear being a dragon.

Speaking of which, if the game's tone leans towards the lighthearted side, please for the love of God, have fun with the protagonist being a dragon and let me choose how the comedy plays out! If Alear learns how to breath fire, let us choose whether they're terrified about puking up flames or if they think that's awesome or if their first thought is "I can make s'mores on the go!" or something like that. If they grow wings want to practice how to fly, let us pick if they jump off something comically small or comically large or just see it as an excuse to jump on the bed without judgement or some other silliness. Allow us to decide if Alear finds having a tail or claws or sharp teeth to be ugly or badass or a mild annoyance or whatever. I am willing to forgive some conversations ultimately going nowhere if they're incredibly entertaining to go through.

Yes! I also hate F!Corrin's thigh windows and F!Byleth's entire outfit, so F!Alear is an improvement. Gimme crazy hair over stupid fanservicey designs any day. I hope they balance the avatar worship so it's not as bad as Fates. I would like to see some moments where Alear discusses being a dragon and the player has dialogue options. Even if the story ends up being fairly serious, some humor is not a bad thing. 

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

When it comes about the Avatar/Self-Insert aspect... honestly, when have they? Other than Mark, even if we can change stuff about them, at the end of the day they were all still characters of their own right, with their own personalities (good or bad as they were), backstories, reactions to the story itself, etc. Not really much room for RP being them, as it is. It would've been neat if the whole "past/present/future aspects" thing of Kris would've actually molded them, but I suppose it was too complex to do at the time, hence Kris ultimately still being the same no matter what.

Well, they also gave a reason as to why that got changed for Awakening, in light of what the DS games did.

Didn't Warriors actually tried to come up with an explanation for that one? About Miloah leaving an imprint of his on the tome (like what Forseti and Loptous did) and thus that maybe had something to do with it, due to his desire to prevent Gharnef from using it and that part of his will being left imprinted on the tome. So at least they tried.

That's what I meant, though admittedly it wasn't relevant to bring up. Only the part about Naga replacing Gotoh's blood bind with her own. Thus new rules about who gets to use Falchion.

Yeah I recall Warriors did try to make some retroactive justification, course it wasn't Warriors job to explain it to begin with. The reason they did it is pretty obvious though. They had two piwerful tomes in the game, but both were character locked to Merric and Linde. So to give other mages some reason to hit A rank they lower those two characters to use them at E. And then so the tomes weren't I  direct competition  with each other they split them under the existing gender lines of Merric and Linde without realising the implications of that for the lore. What they should have done, imo, was make Starlight the A ranked super tome instead as it's stats are very underwhelming for how much trouble it is to get. But the reason they didn't go that route is that it would have necessitated a mage with A rank magic to get Falchion (though personally I'd have been okay with that).

9 hours ago, Kori said:

Setting aside the fact that we know they can adjust the dialogue when they think a character's gender should affect things (if Awakening doesn't count as an example because M!Robin and F!Robin are different characters on a mechanical level, there's still the tactician's gender causing minor dialogue changes in Blazing Sword), "there is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' personality", "gender affects some aspects of characters' lives and how they develop as people", "IS isn't interested in telling that kind of story in depth", and "the problem with the avatar characters/the characters they want the player to project on (phrased this way to include Alm) isn't that they don't commit to a gender, but that they don't want to commit to anything that could rub someone the wrong way lest it stops them from appealing to the largest possible audience" are all true statements that don't contradict each other.

On Alear, I'm getting used to the hair (but not the boob pockets.), but I agree that "you are a divine dragon that people have been waiting to wake up and already admire" is not a promising start if one doesn't want a game full of empty praise. Here's hoping they'll at least be endearing enough to make playing as them enjoyable.

(Oh, and i wonder if their japanese name is confirmed (though it must be, the info must come from somewhere), because if it is, then IS doesn't know how to write Lueur.)

Yeah, that's really what I was trying to get at. Not sure how clear I was, so thanks for summing it up.

9 hours ago, Kori said:

Setting aside the fact that we know they can adjust the dialogue when they think a character's gender should affect things (if Awakening doesn't count as an example because M!Robin and F!Robin are different characters on a mechanical level, there's still the tactician's gender causing minor dialogue changes in Blazing Sword), "there is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' personality", "gender affects some aspects of characters' lives and how they develop as people", "IS isn't interested in telling that kind of story in depth", and "the problem with the avatar characters/the characters they want the player to project on (phrased this way to include Alm) isn't that they don't commit to a gender, but that they don't want to commit to anything that could rub someone the wrong way lest it stops them from appealing to the largest possible audience" are all true statements that don't contradict each other.

On Alear, I'm getting used to the hair (but not the boob pockets.), but I agree that "you are a divine dragon that people have been waiting to wake up and already admire" is not a promising start if one doesn't want a game full of empty praise. Here's hoping they'll at least be endearing enough to make playing as them enjoyable.

(Oh, and i wonder if their japanese name is confirmed (though it must be, the info must come from somewhere), because if it is, then IS doesn't know how to write Lueur.)

What's interesting about all that criteria is Byleth in Three Hopes, wherein you can determine their name and gender, but they are not the main character and, in fact, are kind of the main enemy of the protagonist serving as thr Black Knight in terms of plot structure. So if naming and gendering a character are what constitutes an Avatar then that means Avatars can be antagonists and side characters,  which kind of goes against the idea of a self insert (at least in a traditional sense).

Edited September 25, 2022 by Jotari

[Cysx]

Just to be clear, I never meant to say none of them were ever avatars, I'm saying we're constantly taking self-insert traits out of the mold as we go from character to character and at some point, you're inevitably left with something else. I'm asking if Alear could be that point.
If one doesn't think the others were avatars either, then the question is simply if they think Alear is different. That's the question in general really.
 

18 hours ago, joevar said:

i would say yes. at least from the only trailer we got, its a confirmation we will play from Alear POV. and as i mentioned before, even voiced, this could very well be byleth just "voiced in dialogue" which means they could/would be referred with third person term all the time to avoid putting gender when calling/referring them, in line with how you can choose their gender but it wont change anything toward the plot, sub-plot, or even support. then the choose your gender will boils down to player preference. hence this is proof Alear is avatar/self-insert

Don't we basically play from every FE protagonist's point of view, though? That's inherent to the concept; following a character through their journey.
As for the comparison with Byleth, I don't really see what you mean, considering Byleth is not voiced in dialogue, and we've seen that Alear is. If what you mean is that they don't talk, well we'll see I suppose. But the initial trailer was pretty short and we've seen them speak already, so I don't know about that.
 

7 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't get what benefit we derive from arguing so much about what does and doesn't count as an avatar.

Was this going on before I brought it up or something? I did skim through some posts because I don't remember my Archanea lore well...

Edited September 25, 2022 by Cysx

[Troublesome Knight]

8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't get what benefit we derive from arguing so much about what does and doesn't count as an avatar.

I do, seeing as the fact that they're perceived as an avatar is the primary reason people are reacting so negatively to them. I still don't think people would be so upset about them being a divine dragon otherwise, even though it gives a justified reason for the other characters worshiping them, more so than any of the others have had or maybe because of that. 

Personally I say no they don't count as a self-insert at this point. At least any more than any other protagonist in an rpg where you can change their name and gender of which there are many and the fans of those games don't get so up their own asses about it.

[joevar]

34 minutes ago, Cysx said:

If what you mean is that they don't talk, well we'll see I suppose. But the initial trailer was pretty short and we've seen them speak already, so I don't know about that.

i meant byleth dont talk, but alear is. thats the only the difference so far. not the other way around

8 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't get what benefit we derive from arguing so much about what does and doesn't count as an avatar.

"but, but! muh character cant be customized so i cant ship them to latest dock available! its not compatible because it has fixed docking type :(( i want them to be customize-able avatar so i can ship them to wherever i want! isnt this game about sailing ship simulator?!"  

Edited September 25, 2022 by joevar

[Cysx]

30 minutes ago, joevar said:

i meant byleth dont talk, but alear is. thats the only the difference so far. not the other way around

Oh, gotcha, my bad.
...Well then there's the whole "Byleth immediately being super special for little in-universe reason" thing too, but regardless, that's huge. Your POV character being mute and you picking their dialogue options is one of the biggest self-insert traits there is. If they didn't have that, the argument could definitely have been made for Byleth as well.
... also 3H was the most reclass-friendly game in the series, and choosing which house they'd teach I'd say qualifies too. This affects more than just Byleth obviously, but it is in part a character choice through the player that defines who they are and what they value. Especially in the Black Eagles case, as the midpoint choice gives you two fairly different Byleth.

Alear, so far, has none of that. Of course, we don't know enough yet either.