Best Decade of FE

[Yexin]

00s

PoR, RD and Blazing Sword

no further explanation needed

[Sidereal Wraith]

I’m terms of financially it would be the 2010s, but it’s also the decade that gave rise to the identity crisis that the series is still going through if the FE Engage trailer is anything to go by. I still think the 2000s would be my favorite because that’s where you have the invention of the support system and what I believe to be some of the better games in the series.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Sidereal Wraith

[Robert Stewart]

By right I should say 00s since my favorite (FE3) came out in that time, and I like pretty much all of them...but I personally got in to the series in the 00s, or at least with the games from that era, so I guess I'll go with that.

It's funny that Thracia released so late in the 90s that it's almost included in the 00s list. Its retail version actually did release in the year 2000. 😛

[MasterJP28]

1 hour ago, Robert Stewart said:

By right I should say 00s since my favorite (FE3) came out in that time, and I like pretty much all of them...but I personally got in to the series in the 00s, or at least with the games from that era, so I guess I'll go with that.

It's funny that Thracia released so late in the 90s that it's almost included in the 00s list. Its retail version actually did release in the year 2000. 😛

That's pretty cool! Always thought it was 90s only, but 2000 is 2000. I guess you could count it for both decades, whether that's a good thing or not, up to the person.

I'm hoping in the 20s that we'll have more old school FEs released in NSO, remakes, and remasters. First game of the 20s is FE1 Tokyo Mirage Session #FE Encore. 😐

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:44 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I don't have anything to say regarding your opinion that the gameplay hasn't aged well other than I think it has aged great. If it hasn't, why is Modern Fire Emblem still going back to the FE4 Mines for ideas? Games with a second generation of children units, mounted units with Canto, personal skills and class skills, Holy Blood, a home base with shops and an arena. The Weapon Triangle, battle forecast, and (debatably) the concept of Building Supports between units were also born here. Not every new idea in FE4 became standard for the series, but literally no FE game can claim otherwise, not even the first one. Especially with the massive strip down of mechanics we saw in FE6 and Kaga's departure.

In a direct comparison against FF6 and Chrono Trigger, FE4 has more mechanical depth, which is another way of saying it's less casual friendly. But it's also got the most generous save system in the series to keep the action moving, and games of this era WERE still critically praised on offering a challenge. Plus, in this alternate dimension where Nintendo of America released the game in 1996, the full marketing you could expect of a first party title. Nintendo Power would eat this game up - would run tips and tricks articles all year on the game. And yes, the game would have a Players Manual to explain everything like it did in Japan. I also just think the narrative is stronger and more memorable than that of those other two games. The Twist at the halfway point of FE4 would be 'Sephiroth Kills Aerith' levels of ubiquitous spoiler for RPG fans. It's hard to say how financially successful Genealogy would be, but if Earthbound can endure this long with even more things working against it, then FE4 can too. 

For me, something that can actually be compared to the likes of Chrono Trigger or FF6 cannot be a massive slog to play through. FE4 fails that miserably, with bloated maps and the slowest enemy phases in the series. It's just too slow and clunky. Having an excellent story is nice, but again, that ain't nearly enough to redeem it in the face of its godawful gameplay that I'd have to endure to even get to that (and frankly, the story is pretty much the only good thing about FE4). Sure, some of the concepts and mechanics that popped up in other games might have started in FE4, but those other games generally did them better. Like the marriage mechanic, for example. You cannot tell me that it has a better marriage system than Awakening or Fates, where I have absolute control over who marries whom, and it's much quicker to marry off peeps.

News flash: "Mechanical depth" doesn't excuse making the game hard to play. Also, the Earthbound fanbase is far more united than the FE fanbase. Case in point: FE4 being a very divisive game. And once again, a strong narrative only means so much when you have to endure slow, clunky, and garbage tier gameplay to see it. Far as I'm concerned, it's gonna take a massive overhaul and some quality-of-life features to make FE4 worthy of my time. As to your hypothetical, I'd consider it highly concerning that it's releasing in the same year as the N64 is...

20 hours ago, MasterJP28 said:

I'm hoping in the 20s that we'll have more old school FEs released in NSO

No. Just no. I think they can do much better than that.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

I would agree that FE4 being localized would not be enough to put it in the same breath as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. Like, we don't even need to speculate about this: it doesn't enjoy that status in Japan. There's a reason that Smash, TMS, FEW, etc., gave us Marth/Archanaea instead of Sigurd/Judgral. And Chrono Trigger far outsold any Fire Emblem just in Japan alone.

And more generally... don't underestimate how big a deal it is that Chrono Trigger is fast-paced, polished, and pretty. It's a game just about anyone can pick up and enjoy, even people who "don't like most RPGs". That's not how I'd describe FE4. In general, non-strategy RPGs just had more broad appeal than SRPGs back then. I'd consider Final Fantasy Tactics (not a SNES game, but its release date is a mere one year later so it's a fair comparison IMO) the absolute ceiling for the level of hype that FE4 could have gotten here (and that's incredibly optimistic given that FFT was in part capitalizing on FF7's success), and Chrono Trigger is definitely on another level.

The comparison to Earthbound feels much more reasonable, on the other hand. That I could see, as FE4 is certainly unique and interesting enough to attract a long-lived cult following.

[MasterJP28]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

No. Just no. I think they can do much better than that.

GBA games are fine as they are. PoR and RD just need a remaster with a skippable enemy phase feature added. Only remake truly needed is FE4, give it an Echoes like treatment, keep the large maps, but make it more engaging. FE5 I don't know what can be done with the game really. I wouldn't call it perfect as is since I'm not the biggest fan of it, but I don't think they can do anything to it without killing its vibe.

What would you rather they do?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I would agree that FE4 being localized would not be enough to put it in the same breath as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 6. Like, we don't even need to speculate about this: it doesn't enjoy that status in Japan. There's a reason that Smash, TMS, FEW, etc., gave us Marth/Archanaea instead of Sigurd/Judgral. And Chrono Trigger far outsold any Fire Emblem just in Japan alone.

In Japan, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and Akira Toriyama were household names by the mid 90s, so I don't see this being a fair comparison to the NA market. They're totally different! I can't find any source that breaks down regional sales of FF6, but Chrono Trigger on the SNES was reportedly about 10-15% the units shipped in Japan. 0.28 million? And we STILL hear from English speaking dorks that Chrono Trigger is their favorite game? Yeah, I think FE4 would easily match that amount - FE7 did at any rate. It apparently doesn't NEED to sell even half a million to garner that same acclaim, which is what I'm arguing over strict sales figures. Being a great game that SOME people played is the strictest criteria. JRPGs did poorly in the West, that was just a fact of the industry prior to FF7 changing the conversation and prompting us to revisit them. Square games didn't have the full backing of NoA's marketing. Remember, every Nintendo game that came out over here were games Nintendo WANTED to come out over here. And you bet Nintendo Power gave top billing to new Nintendo releases over whatever Square RPG happened to release that same month. You think FF6 or Chrono Trigger got a cover page on Nintendo Power? They should have but no dice.

Quote

And more generally... don't underestimate how big a deal it is that Chrono Trigger is fast-paced, polished, and pretty. It's a game just about anyone can pick up and enjoy, even people who "don't like most RPGs". That's not how I'd describe FE4. In general, non-strategy RPGs just had more broad appeal than SRPGs back then. I'd consider Final Fantasy Tactics (not a SNES game, but its release date is a mere one year later so it's a fair comparison IMO) the absolute ceiling for the level of hype that FE4 could have gotten here (and that's incredibly optimistic given that FFT was in part capitalizing on FF7's success), and Chrono Trigger is definitely on another level.

I think Sim City for SNES is the fairer comparison to FE4. It's a first party Nintendo game developed by Intelligent Systems, released worldwide in 1991. Whether it qualifies as an RPG is really more a question of whether fighting monsters in a medieval setting is a core tenant of RPGs. I mean, Bowser shows up, but you don't slay him. But as it stands that's a strategy/sim game that did pretty well. Sim games, in general, did better than JRPGs in our region. Maxis/EA made big money on games like this, even though computer games generally didn't have the broad reach that consoles (purchasable from the Toys section) did.

I personally think Chrono Trigger is both a fun and timeless game because of its accessibility. But apparently that accessibility wasn't enough for it to pull comparable numbers over here. The criticism of RPGs at the time is that they were too simple. All you do is select Attack, and Chrono Trigger is no different in this regard. FE4 isn't either, but If FE4 were marketed as the war simulator it factually was, we might have seen a shift in dynamics here. How else would I convince people this isn't another RPG? Sell the battle animations. In most RPGs, you had a command menu, an immobile monster sprite, and MAYBE your character's sprite hops over to the enemy as a sword sprite appears in front of them. FE4's animations are elaborate, and realistic. You don't return to your original position like in FE1. It's visceral, like an action game. And they knew the animations looked good because if you idle on the title screen you get battle scenes instead of the usual Class intros you see in other Fire Emlbem games. There's no blood like in Mortal Kombat, but the suggestion of violence would bite back at Nintendo's reputation for Kiddy Games. I think Nintendo gamers would be waiting for a game with these graphics.

Also a name change would be key. Fire Emblem? Is there even a fire emblem IN FE4? I don't think 'Genealogy of the Holy War' would fly. NoA would reject that faster than they'd edit out a cross sprite from Final Fantasy's churches. But War is good. Sim is also good. Sim Wars? Shadow Wars? Now those sound like a franchise.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

As to your hypothetical, I'd consider it highly concerning that it's releasing in the same year as the N64 is...

That right there is an interesting counterargument. Star Fox 2 was a First party SNES games cancelled in 1995 reportedly due to its proximity to the N64's Star Fox 64 releasing in 1997. As far as we've heard, Fire Emblem on N64 was not in development in 1996. Kaga really wanted to stick to the Super Famicom, so that's how we got Thracia instead. But some Nintendo games weren't pulled from the release schedule of 1996. Like Donkey Kong Country 3, Super Mario RPG, and Kirby Super Star. And Nintendo did release SNES games after the N64. Many of them had Kirby in the title. Even if we were confident FE4 would do as well as Sim City did in 1991, is that worth the money we're potentially pulling from N64 sales? I don't know the particulars of how Nintendo made these decisions. Heck Nintendo were halfway to shuttering the N64 in favor of a disc system by the late 90s, before compromising with the DD add on.

[Dark Holy Elf]

50 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

In Japan, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, and Akira Toriyama were household names by the mid 90s, so I don't see this being a fair comparison to the NA market. They're totally different! I can't find any source that breaks down regional sales of FF6, but Chrono Trigger on the SNES was reportedly about 10-15% the units shipped in Japan. 0.28 million? And we STILL hear from English speaking dorks that Chrono Trigger is their favorite game? Yeah, I think FE4 would easily match that amount - FE7 did at any rate. It apparently doesn't NEED to sell even half a million to garner that same acclaim, which is what I'm arguing over strict sales figures. Being a great game that SOME people played is the strictest criteria. JRPGs did poorly in the West, that was just a fact of the industry prior to FF7 changing the conversation and prompting us to revisit them. Square games didn't have the full backing of NoA's marketing. Remember, every Nintendo game that came out over here were games Nintendo WANTED to come out over here. And you bet Nintendo Power gave top billing to new Nintendo releases over whatever Square RPG happened to release that same month. You think FF6 or Chrono Trigger got a cover page on Nintendo Power? They should have but no dice.

Oh yeah, Chrono Trigger obviously didn't do as well in North America as in Japan, the market was definitely pretty RPG-skeptical prior to FF7's ridiculous advertising blitz and full-motion videos. That said, I don't particularly see any reason FE4 would have outdone Chrono Trigger in North America - Akira Toriyama and Final Fantasy may not count for as much in NA as they did in Japan then, but they still count for something.

Interesting point about Nintendo's marketing. I didn't read Nintendo Power but I know it had an obvious reputation for pumping the tires of Nintendo games. That said, that only goes so far; there were certainly some very low-selling Nintendo games

SimCity's an interesting comparison. For what it's worth I definitely don't think SimCity gets the same kind of love as CT/FF6, but yeah it probably had solid sales figures. Of course, SimCity was also one of the biggest PC games circa the late 80's / early 90's, so I'm not sure how easily we can translate it to something else here.

Another good comparison not yet mentioned is Shining Force 1-2 for the Genesis. They're a bit older than FE4. They're a bit more pulp fantasy compared to Fire Emblem's war (although the first one shares FE's predeliction for an evil wizard who wants to revive an evil dragon). I'd put them in the category of "unique/notable enough to be remembered and have a small but loyal fanbase, but not as broadly loved as Chrono Trigger", and I think FE4 would be similar.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Another good comparison not yet mentioned is Shining Force 1-2 for the Genesis. They're a bit older than FE4. They're a bit more pulp fantasy compared to Fire Emblem's war (although the first one shares FE's predeliction for an evil wizard who wants to revive an evil dragon). I'd put them in the category of "unique/notable enough to be remembered and have a small but loyal fanbase, but not as broadly loved as Chrono Trigger", and I think FE4 would be similar.

I thought about mentioning it, but there were no sales figures on Shining Force. I haven't played 2, but If you ask me, Shining Force 1's got nothing on FE4. Though it is a pretty impressive followup to FE1 if you were playing in Japan. The inspiration is pretty clear with unit promotion, the Lord's death is the only game over condition, and how the cursor highlights enemy units making their turn - giving you the impression you're playing against another player. They also have RPG-esque towns where you recruit units and do your shopping just like in FE2 (both games released within the same week in Japan)

[Rose482]

Easily the 00s. The GBA and Tellius games are the golden era for Fire Emblem in my eyes. 

[MasterJP28]

5 hours ago, Rose482 said:

Easily the 00s. The GBA and Tellius games are the golden era for Fire Emblem in my eyes. 

I agree! I know Shadow Dragon is pretty divisive, but I'm of those that enjoyed it. I think messing around with hacking the GBAs added to the fun for me.

[Baudshaw]

2000s, but it's the only type of FE game I've played. That said, I'd reluctantly choose the hyper-anime waifu stuff of the 10s over the slow clunkienss of the 90s.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Baudshaw

[Shadow Mir]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:14 PM, MasterJP28 said:

GBA games are fine as they are. PoR and RD just need a remaster with a skippable enemy phase feature added. Only remake truly needed is FE4, give it an Echoes like treatment, keep the large maps, but make it more engaging. FE5 I don't know what can be done with the game really. I wouldn't call it perfect as is since I'm not the biggest fan of it, but I don't think they can do anything to it without killing its vibe.

What would you rather they do?

Binding Blade is most definitely NOT "fine as it is". It desperately needs a rework. Anyways, I do agree that Genealogy needs an overhaul, and to be sped up. I don't want to regularly be spending an eternity waiting for my next player phase. That said, they should focus on developing Engage now.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Shadow Mir