How would FE7 be impacted by an FE8-style class system?

[Baudshaw]

How would FE7 be like if it had classes such as Summoner, Ranger, Great Knight, and Wyvern Knight? What units would be severely buffed/nerfed? 

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

I don't know if any units would be nerfed by the mere existence of addition promotion options, but it would definitely buff the units whose "good" class in FE8 isn't the same as their class's FE7 promotion. That means knights, mages, clerics, mercenaries, and archers are buffed by the option to get a horse, fighters are buffed by their ability to get speed on promotion, fliers are buffed by wyvern knight's better promotion gains for each of them, and Canas is buffed by his ability to summon phantoms. The closest I can think to any unit getting nerfed is pre-promotes not being as good by comparison if their class isn't the best choice. Geitz isn't really affected since Hero's main benefit is statistical, but Erk might seem slightly less "less-good-than-Pent" just because he can get a horse.

Edited October 2, 2022 by AnonymousSpeed

[Whisky]

No unit would nerfed directly, but there would be units are nerfed indirectly, like the Lords who don’t gain anything versus other units who get better.

How does this work for Great Knights? One of their biggest advantages over Paladins is being able to use Axes, but Paladins already use Axes in FE7. Should we also remove Axes from Paladins for this discussion? If so, Cavaliers and Paladins actually might be nerfed directly then.

 

Let’s look at all of them:

Eliwood - No change.

Marcus - He’d be nerfed by losing Axes. He’d still be really good, but Axes are nice to have.

Lowen - Probably wants to stick with Paladin, but he would be lacking in power without Axes. The extra power and Spd from Great Knight could be tempting. Definitely nerfed overall.

Rebecca - Ranger would be a huge upgrade for her. She’d gain Move, Canto and Rescue utility, and Swords so she isn’t 2 range locked. She’d still lack 1-2 range and it probably isn’t worth training her up from a low level Archer, but this would probably be one of the biggest buffs.

Dorcas - Hero would give him an extra 2 Spd, which is honestly a huge buff.

Bartre - Same as above.

Hector - No change.

Oswin - Great Knight would be nice for the extra Move and utility. His Spd would be lower but I think it’d be worth it.

Matthew - Basically no change. His promotion item isn’t available until very late in the game and either way you’re better off just selling it.

Serra - The extra Move and utility from Valkyrie would be a nice buff.

Guy - He could become an Assassin, which gives him some utility, fog vision, lockpicking, digging in the desert for items. But his combat would be slightly worse than normal. It doesn’t hurt to have the option of course.

Erk - Same as Serra, getting a horse is a nice buff.

Priscilla - She could choose between Anima or Light magic but Anima is better anyway so basically no change.

Lyn - No change.

Sain - Axes are always nice but Sain has plenty of Str anyway, so he would prefer Paladin. Losing Axes would be a nerf though.

Kent - Losing Axes nerfs him. Probably still better to stick with Paladin though.

Florina - Wyvern Knight would give +3 Con which would be nice. Falcón Knight has better HP, Def, and Swords. Only E Swords though. Wyvern probably would be better overall.

Wil - Same as Rebecca. He’d still start out weak and never have good 1-2 range, but Ranger would be a huge buff for him.

Raven - Ranger has more Move and utility, but Bows aren’t much of a bonus compared to Hand Axes.

Lucius - Sage would give him Anima which is better than Light, but he’d have a lower Staff rank. Bishop bumps up to C Staves and his offensive stats are high enough to get by with Light Magic so I think he should stick with Bishop.

Canas - I guess Druid would give him Anima now which would actually be pretty cool. Canas would be pretty effective with Thunder. Being able to summon phantoms would probably be cooler though. So either way is a buff.

Dart - Berserker is better so basically no change.

Fiora - Same as Florina. The extra Con from Wyvern would be a nice buff, but she might be worse against Axe enemies.

Legault - Same as Matthew.

Ninian/Nils - No change.

Isadora - She’d lose Axes which is a nerf. Her Con is really low but she’s still fast enough to double with Iron Axes and weapon triangle control is nice.

Heath - Knight would give him +3 Spd but he’d lose durability, 1 Str, and Swords, so he’d probably be worse against Axe enemies. I honestly don’t know what is more important for him between the Spd or the other stats. +3 Spd is a lot but most enemies in FE7 are slow anyway so it might not be important.

Rath - No change.

Hawkeye - No change.

Wallace - No change if you skip LM, but with LM he could promote to Great Knight which would be a nice buff.

Geitz - No change

Farina - Same as other Pegasus Knights. Knight would give her a nice boost to Con.

Pent - He could use Light magic now I guess, but it wouldn’t really matter.

Louise - No change, except that she was stupid for choosing Sniper over Ranger.

Nino - She could get a horse which is always nice but she’d still be underleveled as always.

Karel, Harken, Jaffar, vaida, Renault - No change.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mostly agree with Whisky's summary, though a couple notes:

-I think Wyvern Knight is a clear buff to the units who get it. Swords get mentioned but who cares? Axereavers are storebought not too long after you're likely to promote them (in Heath's case, shortly after he even starts existing) and counter axes better than swords do, and Wyvern Knights don't get weighed down by the Iron Lance which outclasses the iron sword completely against everything else. The boost to effective speed (con for the pegasi, raw speed for Heath) makes it a clear choice in all cases IMO.

-Light magic miiiight be worth it for Priscilla because it comes with an exp bonus and if I don't believe Mage Knight does. That said light tomes really are a lot worse, and unlike in Sacred Stones there's no value in light just for WTA (enemy dark mages barely exist compared to the danger posed by Stone and Shadowshot in SS). So basically agree with the conclusion.

[Whisky]

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mostly agree with Whisky's summary, though a couple notes:

-I think Wyvern Knight is a clear buff to the units who get it. Swords get mentioned but who cares? Axereavers are storebought not too long after you're likely to promote them (in Heath's case, shortly after he even starts existing) and counter axes better than swords do, and Wyvern Knights don't get weighed down by the Iron Lance which outclasses the iron sword completely against everything else. The boost to effective speed (con for the pegasi, raw speed for Heath) makes it a clear choice in all cases IMO.

That’s probably true. I know Axereavers are good, but is it an issue that they’re expensive and have only 15 uses each? Also, when are they first buyable? I was thinking it was later.

Quote

-Light magic miiiight be worth it for Priscilla because it comes with an exp bonus and if I don't believe Mage Knight does. That said light tomes really are a lot worse, and unlike in Sacred Stones there's no value in light just for WTA (enemy dark mages barely exist compared to the danger posed by Stone and Shadowshot in SS). So basically agree with the conclusion.

Wait, Valkyries gain bonus Exp but Mage Knights don’t? Do Valkyries also gain bonus Exp in FE7? In that case, Priscilla is actually nerfed in this version, because she normally gets that bonus Exp and Anima magic.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Whisky

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 minutes ago, Whisky said:

That’s probably true. I know Axereavers are good, but is it an issue that they’re expensive and have only 15 uses each? Also, when are they first buyable? I was thinking it was later.

They're first buyable in Four-Fanged Offence (the first Lloyd/Linus map). Expensive... I suppose you could call them that, but I wouldn't. You can sell the Ocean Seal you get shortly before them for 25k so I find money's no issue by then unless I care about the funds rank.

On the Ocean Seal note, if we're copying over Sacred Stone's class system in full, then arguably Matthew/Legault can now use that (since Colm can in SS). Which would certainly make promoting them more practical, if still not optimal.

4 minutes ago, Whisky said:

Wait, Valkyries gain bonus Exp but Mage Knights don’t? Do Valkyries also gain bonus Exp in FE7? In that case, Priscilla is actually nerfed in this version, because she normally gets that bonus Exp and Anima magic.

Oh wow, you're right. Checked to confirm: the class named Valkyrie gets an exp boost in both games, but Mage Knight does not get one in SS, so yeah, this is a nerf to Priscilla.

[eriyg]

I generally agree with everything that's been said. It's worth noting the problem with Bartre/Dorcas is that they never double. Even if they do with the +2 speed from Hero (not guaranteed), they still rarely double before lv 10. It might give them enough avoid to not die as surprisingly fast as they currently do, but I don't have much faith.

Losing hand axes on paladins really sucks 😞

I think the major buff is that Erk/Nino/Serra get a horse and Canas gets summoner. Otherwise, the game is pretty similar. Is there a rom hack for this change?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Since this change would lose Isadora her Axes, it would also result in no female Axe-users throughout the game. Ouch.

Priscilla is heavily nerfed, not just because Mage Knight doesn't get the EXP buff, but also because Sacred Stones reduced the movement of the whole Troubadour family by 1. She'll join with 6 movement instead of 7.

Now, are we assuming that "Ranger" and "Nomad Trooper" are the same class? If so, then Rath will also be losing a point of movement. And while Nomad didn't exist in SS, it's reasonable to assume that any mounted first-tier Bow unit would only have 6 movement. Now, Rath could benefit from another promotion option, but what would it be? Sniper? That'd be just worse. Warrior? Now, that could be interesting.

One more question. Would Bishop's "Slayer" skill provide effective damage against Morphs? If it does, then that could be a fun little buff to Lucius, Serra, and Renault. For the former two, it'd keep Bishop a viable promotion option.

Also, Summoner Canas is the stuff nightmares are made of. He'd easily become a top 5 unit in the game.