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Would the weapon tiers be better if it worked more like this?


AnonymousSpeed
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We all like Conquest, at least if we're cool, but I think we agree its weapons are kinda weird. Some are a lot more intuitive that others, that's for sure, at least. However, taking a little inspiration from the GBA games, I came up with the following weapon progression (brass-iron-steel, etc.) which I think might be interesting, and I'd like some feedback on it.

  • E Rank: Brass. Unable to crit or trigger offensive skills, +10 Critical Evade.
  • D Rank: Iron. No special effects.
  • C Rank: Steel. Follow-up attack speed -3.
  • B Rank: Brave. Makes 2 consecutive attacks when user initiates battle. Defense/Resistance -4.
  • A Rank: Silver. -5 Critical Evade.

The most obvious change is that braves and silvers have switched weapon ranks, now imitating the GBA model where silvers are at A and braves are at B. Most of the weapon effects are the exact same, but you might notice the one major change- silvers no long penalize your stats after combat.

The way I see it, weapon rank in Fates builds slowly. Braves are very powerful, and I think their design in Fates is pretty good, but silvers always seem to fall by the wayside despite their high rank. My proposed solution is that silvers, although the most difficult weapon to wield, also become the most generally powerful weapon. They have superior might to all their predecessors and excellent hit to go with them. Aside from the critical evade penalty, they're as close to ideal as a weapon can get. In this sense, they are a replacement for other weapon materials, a special reward for grinding your weapon rank all the way to the top.

Anyway. I kinda liked this idea, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks about it. I haven't thought it through too much, so I'd be fascinated to hear how you guys think it'd work in practice.

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I can definitely agree with the switch and the changes. Silver being A rank and ditching the stat penalty is a decently good trade, and makes it the ultimate "generic" weapon type, as it should be. Theoretically, the stat penalty should balance out the fact that weapon durability doesn't exist in Fates, but it honestly makes Silver weapons not worth using imo, especially when you've got weapons like the Killing Edge that can do the same job, but with less risk and more reward at an earlier rank. By the time you can even get Silver weapons, you've probably got a stockpile of Fates' other weapons (Raider, Killer, etc.) that you've been using for a good while and have forged, so Silver weapons are kind of redundant, especially with the penalties that other weapons don't have.

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All I´m thinking is, why would you use a silver weapon if you already have a Brave effect and yeah, I´m aware there´s the issue of quantity.

I don´t think I ever used a silver weapon outside of DLC maps; doubling with iron (in combination with AS) is almost guaranteed a kill, certain units, well Effie really, OHKO with Steel; then there´s effective weaponry which takes care of so much in CQ; and of course the few Dual weapons you get: the club and the tome.

There are just so many tools in Fates that increase your damage, that don´t cost 4k. 

And minus -5 CritAvo... hm. It´s probably not a relevant margin but you do face a lot of mono weapon classes with their passive buffs.

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I don't know about this; far as I'm concerned, it changes absolutely nothing. Braves are already hard to justify using with their poor hit combined with the defense drop, and I still consider the -5 crit avoid attached to silvers a dealbreaker.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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I think there's multiple problems with Silvers in the original game even besides the debuffs, their high weapon rank requirement, high price-tag and competition from forged Iron weapons which can be used with only a D rank are among them.

Given that weapon ranks go up quite slowly in Fates and that reclassing into different classes for various skills tends to be quite beneficial for a lot of characters increasing their weapon rank requirement while removing the debuff is ultimately a nerf to Silvers in my eyes assuming their stats are otherwise unaltered.

Similarly I think that Braves would definitely be a fair bit better at B rank though honestly I think they tend to be a good incentive to ensure you have people with an A rank in physical weapons so that you can actually use them so I prefer them at A rank from a game design perspective personally.

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On 10/13/2022 at 9:36 AM, Shadow Mir said:

I don't know about this; far as I'm concerned, it changes absolutely nothing. Braves are already hard to justify using with their poor hit combined with the defense drop, and I still consider the -5 crit avoid attached to silvers a dealbreaker.

The Brave effect is almost always worth it. And the defense drop, like -5 Crit Avoid, doesn't actually matter as long as you can use tradestrats to make sure that they won't be holding it on enemy phase.

On 10/13/2022 at 4:08 AM, Imuabicus said:

All I´m thinking is, why would you use a silver weapon if you already have a Brave effect and yeah, I´m aware there´s the issue of quantity.

In this model, I would assume (wrongly?) that Braves are cheaper and more plentiful than Silver weapons. Since "mainline" weapons tend to get rarer and pricier as their rank goes up.

On 10/12/2022 at 11:38 PM, indigoasis said:

that you've been using for a good while and have forged

This is one of the biggest problems. So long as Fates' forging system exists, the higher Might possessed by Silver weapons will be undercut. Like, a vanilla Silver Yumi has 7 Might over an Iron Yumi. But it only has 3 Might over (and 2 less Hit than) an Iron Yumi +2, which costs the same amount. And that's before considering a Silver's own negative side effects.

On 10/12/2022 at 9:52 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Aside from the critical evade penalty, they're as close to ideal as a weapon can get. In this sense, they are a replacement for other weapon materials, a special reward for grinding your weapon rank all the way to the top.

As paradigms go, I'm generally sympathetic to the idea that weapons which demand a high rank should be better than those that only require a low rank. Because either a) you had to work for that rank, so you should be rewarded; or b) the unit came with high ranks, meaning they've already mastered that weapon type, so it makes sense that they can use the best of them.

There is a problem with this system, though - not all weapons have a "Brave" variant. There's a Brave Sword, sure, but no Brave Katana. It occurred to me that you could put the Raider Katana in its place - after all, E-rank seems very low for a weapon that boosts the user's Attack Speed. But this creates its own problems - there's a Brave Axe and a Raider Axe, but no Club in either category.

If we're creating new weapon types to begin with, I'd probably let Brave weapons stay their own thing, and throw a new metal into the mix. Maybe Nickel, or perhaps Titanium? Hoshido could get one, and Nohr the other (like the "Brass/Bronze" split). Either way, the "gimmick" I'm imagining is that they're highly accurate, and between Steel and new-Silver in Might. But they literally cannot double, and inflict -10 to Avoid. So you can use it for a sure hit, but if you don't defeat them, you're a sitting duck afterward. And you probably don't want it equipped on enemy phase.

To the particular point of Braves at B-rank - yeah, sure. It's been a while since I've played Fates, but I remember Braves being fairly well-balanced there. I was definitely a fan of them introducing the "brave effect is player-phase exclusive" factor, to say the least.

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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The Brave effect is almost always worth it. And the defense drop, like -5 Crit Avoid, doesn't actually matter as long as you can use tradestrats to make sure that they won't be holding it on enemy phase.

It WILL matter if you whiff. And didn't I mention that braves have lackluster hit? Also, honestly, 8000 gold for what is essentially an unforged iron with worse hit and defense penalties heavily stinks of a rip-off (that said, Lightning dodges that by being significantly less expensive).

Edited by Shadow Mir
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12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

that Braves are cheaper and more plentiful than Silver weapons.

That´d be super busted? We´d get up to 4 attacks when in AS before enemy retaliation. That seems significantly better than anything a silver weapon could ever hope to achieve, especially when considering CQ´s mix of on hit enemy debuffs.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

There is a problem with this system, though - not all weapons have a "Brave" variant. There's a Brave Sword, sure, but no Brave Katana. It occurred to me that you could put the Raider Katana in its place - after all, E-rank seems very low for a weapon that boosts the user's Attack Speed. But this creates its own problems - there's a Brave Axe and a Raider Axe, but no Club in either category.

In terms of price, the Hoshidan "equivalent" of the Brave weapon would be the Venge weapons. Which doesn´t make much sense, considering the relative fragility of BR units and, I daresay, a Brave effect is better than a Venge effect. Maybe if the Venge weapons had Guard Naginata style DEF/RES buffs or 1-2 range during enemy phase .

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9 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

In terms of price, the Hoshidan "equivalent" of the Brave weapon would be the Venge weapons. Which doesn´t make much sense, considering the relative fragility of BR units and, I daresay, a Brave effect is better than a Venge effect. Maybe if the Venge weapons had Guard Naginata style DEF/RES buffs or 1-2 range during enemy phase .

I'd never really thought about it before, but you're right: Venge weapons are a poor fit for the Hoshidans in general.

Brave weapons fit the Nohrians wonderfully: as a group, they tend to lack speed and face faster enemies, but brave will let them make followup attacks anyway. While not only do Venge weapons not patch up the typical fault in Hoshidan units (their physical durability) but they exacerbate it, as they require good durability to use effectively.

Anyway if it's not clear I think brave weapons are obviously very good. Yes they have 10 less hit than steel, but even if they miss once they still do only slightly less damage than any other random attack. And there are a variety of ways to make them usually hit. And on top of that, they make incredibly powerful support attacks or can be used to fill up your own dual guard gauge extra fast. You can one-round the final boss of Conquest with them; I'm not aware of another way to do it.

For that reason I'm hesitant to move them down to B, unless they're seriously nerfed in some way (like dropping their power further, e.g. like Lightning). Yeah that's what GBA did, but GBA made a mistake imo.

That said I agree with silver losing its debuffs. In practice, that means hardly anyone is going to use them; you have to buy an already pricy weapon for an option which is pretty much just "use this at the end of a battle, or in a dire emergency". Better to spend that money forging up your iron weapon even further. If you remove this downside, you could keep the critical evade debuff and their high power, and they'd actually feel like a reward for reaching B rank. Iron and steel would still maintain niches due to not having the critical evade penalty, and being cheaper / already potentially invested in by the time silver is an option.

 

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14 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For that reason I'm hesitant to move them down to B, unless they're seriously nerfed in some way (like dropping their power further, e.g. like Lightning). Yeah that's what GBA did, but GBA made a mistake imo.

Weren't braves B rank for the longest time (other than the Brave Axe being D rank in Thracia for whatever reason, as well as Radiant Dawn, where the braves were all C rank except the bow)? IIRC, it wasn't until Awakening they were bumped up to A rank. With that in mind, I'd find it questionable for them to go back down to B after only one game.

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5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Weren't braves B rank for the longest time (other than the Brave Axe being D rank in Thracia for whatever reason, as well as Radiant Dawn, where the braves were all C rank except the bow)? IIRC, it wasn't until Awakening they were bumped up to A rank. With that in mind, I'd find it questionable for them to go back down to B after only one game.

The Brave Weapons being C-rank in RD was exceptionally bizarre, since that was the game that introduced Bronzes (and bumped Irons up to D). So, the margin between Irons and Braves went from three full ranks to just one. And since Killing and effective weaponry were bumped to B-rank, this is the only game (that I know of) where the Brave Sword is easier to use than a Killing Edge or Wyrmslayer. Clearly, this was blatant favoritism, to ensure that a bases Meg could still use a good weapon.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I like this change cause damn, Silver Weapons feel like a dead end most of the time.  I find them hard to justify ever using even as a one time nuke when you can get slightly less might on an Iron Weapon +2 which probably could do the job with all the damage stacking skills you get in Fates.

Edited by Mordred
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  • 2 months later...
On 10/12/2022 at 6:52 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

My proposed solution is that silvers, although the most difficult weapon to wield, also become the most generally powerful weapon. They have superior might to all their predecessors and excellent hit to go with them. Aside from the critical evade penalty, they're as close to ideal as a weapon can get. In this sense, they are a replacement for other weapon materials, a special reward for grinding your weapon rank all the way to the top.

Anyway. I kinda liked this idea, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks about it. I haven't thought it through too much, so I'd be fascinated to hear how you guys think it'd work in practice.

 

I feel like a higher weapon rank only makes silver weapons worse.

Honestly the combination of their cost+rank makes them borderline unusable in most FE games.

Late-game when gold is plentiful anything with an A rank in their weapon likely got there from having solid ORKO stats with Javelins, Hand-Axes, or Iron weapons anyways. As mighty as Silver weapons are they're still a ways off from reliable or noteworthy OHKO thresholds as well, so they just a waste of resources at that point. bonus effects like 1~2 range, +25% crit, +10% crit dodge, +20% avoid, +5/5 Def/Res, +4 Res, etc. are all going to be more valuble when a competant unit can do competant unit things.

Early-on when a huge boost to Might would be really helpful to get the ball rolling on a lot of units; the high WPN rank also lol nopes that potential use away from silver weapons.

You'd be looking at some pretty absurd MGT levels for A rank to be justifiable on them either way.

..........................

More importantly: the intent of Silver weapons never struck me as a player-focused option, but an enemy-focused one.

 

Silver weapons are the weapons promoted enemies wield when the developers want some generic promoted enmies to round out a map.

Not every enemy needs to have some spicy set of skills, most are better off rocking Iron, Steel, or Silver weapons for a good base force while a few enemies can go to town with interesting sets that add some flare to the map.

 

Considering classes in Fates have a capped weapon rank of S, A, or B for being ~mono-weapon focused, dual-weapon focused with their primary weapon, and dual-weapon focused for their secondary weapon:

Such a change would also render a wide range of standard promoted enemy sets.

Great Knights could no longer legally have a Silver Sword, Silver Lance, Silver Axe set, Dark Knights no longer Ragnorock and Silver Sword, Bow Knights no longer Silver Bow and Silver Sword; a lot of these generic multi-weapon sets would need to be replaced with something else to track with the game's rules.

Mostly Brave weapon sets in this case, which would really up the difficulty. Especially for anything remotely squishy or anything reliant on Avoid, as even dropping a 75% one-time hit rate down to 50% still results in a 75% chance you'll get hit at least once. Ignoring the lies the hit% check goes with at any rate.

..........................

I also have to question the aesthetics of making Silver weapons the highest achievable weapon rank for most classes. 

Any property a solid material for making swords/lances/axes/bows out of should make them easier to use.

Unless it's like, lightsabers and you've going to have a big sad after a woopsiedoodle.

 

All that said:

I do like the underlying game-design of making the high-end weapons players are going to get the narrowest timeframe to utilize as just being super straightforward in how strong they are.

Capstone abilities and end-game fair should be very straightfoward IMO, anything reliant on an adjustment time and a training montage to master within the game's mechanics shouldn't be locked to the post-game.

 

I don't think Brave weapons are enigmatic enough to really justify swapping them with silver weapons here though.

 

On 10/15/2022 at 7:39 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd never really thought about it before, but you're right: Venge weapons are a poor fit for the Hoshidans in general.

I mean: everyone worth using in BR long enough to get an A rank is an EP god.

Or has fairly easy access to Vantage, in which case getting a big-slappy is pretty important.

It is weird the Swordcatcher, Pike-Ruin Club, and Axe Splitter are all D rank weapons available in the Dawn shop though. Doing super-effective damage to anything currently weilding a sword, lance, or axe sure does sound like an A rank weapon to me, not a D rank 3.4k kind of deal.

Especially when silver weapons are 4k and venge are 8k.

 

On 10/15/2022 at 7:39 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

That said I agree with silver losing its debuffs. In practice, that means hardly anyone is going to use them; you have to buy an already pricy weapon for an option which is pretty much just "use this at the end of a battle, or in a dire emergency". Better to spend that money forging up your iron weapon even further. If you remove this downside, you could keep the critical evade debuff and their high power, and they'd actually feel like a reward for reaching B rank.

If ~1/4th of the enemies in the game use silver weapons, is it ok if no players want to use them?

It's certainly annoying hostile Ragnorock Sorcerers and Rabbit Spirit Onmyoiji can spam those with basically no downsides, don't get me wrong, but I feel like being solid options for the player isn't necessary for them to fullfill an important role in Fate's overall design.

 

Certainly weird 0 ~silver weapons drop in Conquest through. Birthright and Revelation at least give 1 free copy for each weapon category, which is nice for those cases Midori needs 3 more MGT to OHKO something or Rhajet needs a scroll with an actual Might value because I was just passing around a bunch of unmerged Horse spirits or a merged Rat spirit for Orochi to capture things up until then.

 

On that note: if you pull a Silver weapon user into a fight with the Dual-Strike stance, they don't suffer from the debuffs. Which is kind of neat. Might create some opportunities for interesting use cases.

Still not worth the cost in Conquest IMO, though if you're super unlucky with getting the right gemstones for forging or get super lucky with a My Castle weapon drop that have the Silver weapon downside; I guess it's something to keep in mind for adapting a run and fitting in a ~silver weapon when it's more beneficial than not.

Edited by 67chrome
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On 1/20/2023 at 5:20 PM, 67chrome said:

Late-game when gold is plentiful anything with an A rank in their weapon likely got there from having solid ORKO stats with Javelins, Hand-Axes, or Iron weapons anyways. As mighty as Silver weapons are they're still a ways off from reliable or noteworthy OHKO thresholds as well, so they just a waste of resources at that point. bonus effects like 1~2 range, +25% crit, +10% crit dodge, +20% avoid, +5/5 Def/Res, +4 Res, etc. are all going to be more valuble when a competant unit can do competant unit things.

That depends on the game. Look at Three Houses. Hand Axes and Javelins are clearly at their nadir there, between the high weight, the low might, and the fact that archers, snipers, and bow knights all have extra range. The end result is that javelins and hand axes are pretty much useless in that game. This game is another one where throwing weapons are not that useful, thanks to their inability to follow up, as well as making it easier for enemies to follow up against anyone using them. The higher-end throwing weapons also are locked to 2 range. Because of these, you see enemy-only throwing weapons that DON'T have these drawbacks.

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On 1/21/2023 at 8:57 PM, Shadow Mir said:

That depends on the game. Look at Three Houses. Hand Axes and Javelins are clearly at their nadir there, between the high weight, the low might, and the fact that archers, snipers, and bow knights all have extra range. The end result is that javelins and hand axes are pretty much useless in that game. This game is another one where throwing weapons are not that useful, thanks to their inability to follow up, as well as making it easier for enemies to follow up against anyone using them. The higher-end throwing weapons also are locked to 2 range. Because of these, you see enemy-only throwing weapons that DON'T have these drawbacks.

 

For sure.

1~2 range is pretty weak in Fates all things considered, and being a big go-to is more a draw for other games, which I probably should have been more clear about.

 

1~2 range certainly has it's uses even on gutted weapons though. Better to throw out some chip damage when hit over nothing at all, Better to chip in with some damage over standing in a corner awkwardly, it's a way to keep bringing a dual-strike champion back in more fights, and you can do fun stuff like Lunging through walls or having +200% more fun locations to lunge an enemy into.

 

Also really strong on the enemy-only 1~2 range weapons, though I do have to question why Fates bothered creating 27 of those over, I don't know, just making Fort/Gate/Throne tiles apply a 1~2 range bonus instead. They already implemented the Fie Orb/Launcher/Ballista as interactive map tiles....

.....................

All that said: hitting reliable ORKO thresholds without Silver is still easy enough with weapons that don't exist for the sole purpose of doing damage. And if Silver weapons can't ORKO, I'm also better off using something with any kind of side bonus.

Which is mostly the point I'm trying to make with Silver weapons being in a bad spot already; raw power from a good Might stat isn't actually that useful or interesting unless I can land in the narrow band of circumstances were it allows for an ORKO when other weapons don't.

And even then: if a unit needs to EP 3 enemies they need to reliably survive 3 enemies, so big-slappy can loose out to, say, 10% Ddg in those cases. Really sucks to loose a unit to a 4% crit.

..........................

Also 3-Houses weapon/class balancing is kind of a disaster, not sure if they're the greatest example here.

Bow Range+2 is so good it renders ~90% of the skills/mechanics/weapons/classes in that game largely obsolete.

Certainly a way to end the tyranny of Javelin+Hand-Axe spam from a lot of past FE games, but at what cost?

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On 1/20/2023 at 6:20 PM, 67chrome said:

 

I feel like a higher weapon rank only makes silver weapons worse.

[many things]

All that said:

I do like the underlying game-design of making the high-end weapons players are going to get the narrowest timeframe to utilize as just being super straightforward in how strong they are.

Thank you.

There were many interesting thoughts in both this post and your next one, I definitely appreciate you sharing them.

I suppose that is yet another flaw of silvers, raw damage can be stacked so many ways in Fates.

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Certainly a way to end the tyranny of Javelin+Hand-Axe spam from a lot of past FE games, but at what cost?

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In a sense, we traded Javelin Tyranny for Bow Tyranny.

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8 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Also really strong on the enemy-only 1~2 range weapons, though I do have to question why Fates bothered creating 27 of those over, I don't know, just making Fort/Gate/Throne tiles apply a 1~2 range bonus instead. They already implemented the Fie Orb/Launcher/Ballista as interactive map tiles....

Maybe because that'd defeat the purpose of nerfing hand axes and javelins in the first place??

8 hours ago, 67chrome said:

1~2 range is pretty weak in Fates all things considered, and being a big go-to is more a draw for other games, which I probably should have been more clear about.

There is still good 1-2 range in Fates, but you have to be Xander or Ryoma to get it.

8 hours ago, 67chrome said:

1~2 range certainly has it's uses even on gutted weapons though. Better to throw out some chip damage when hit over nothing at all, Better to chip in with some damage over standing in a corner awkwardly, it's a way to keep bringing a dual-strike champion back in more fights, and you can do fun stuff like Lunging through walls or having +200% more fun locations to lunge an enemy into.

Fair point. However, bows are probably going to be the go-to ranged weapon in Fates.

8 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Also 3-Houses weapon/class balancing is kind of a disaster, not sure if they're the greatest example here.

Bow Range+2 is so good it renders ~90% of the skills/mechanics/weapons/classes in that game largely obsolete.

Certainly a way to end the tyranny of Javelin+Hand-Axe spam from a lot of past FE games, but at what cost?

I wouldn't say it was "a lot" of past FE games. Only Blazing Blade, Scared Stones, Radiant Dawn, and Path of Radiance had javelins and hand axes be better than pretty much everything else. After that, they were pretty aggressive about keeping them in check.

 

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19 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Or have daggers.

Daggers honestly seem to be more for debuffing  than anything else (there's also the fact that most of the handful of classes that get them don't have good strength); I have had like negative luck turning any of the ninjas into something worth bringing along for the long term.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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On 1/24/2023 at 6:18 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

In a sense, we traded Javelin Tyranny for Bow Tyranny.

Lol, yeah.

 

On 1/24/2023 at 10:33 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe because that'd defeat the purpose of nerfing hand axes and javelins in the first place??

Would it?

Forts/Gates/Thrones are in a position (and often occupied by a foe) that makes such boss tiles way more useful for the enemy AI than the player.

Considering Bosses and Boss tiles go hand-in-hand, I'm not sure much of a change would happen if the 0-drawbacks 1~2 range property was just part of the boss tile's effect.

Like; swap Haitaka's Steel Nageyari out for a Steel Naginata in this case and nothing changes.

Aside from things being cleaner. Same thing would apply to most bosses/maps, very few units lacking the golden boss shield icon wield 1~2 range weapons, very few bosses lack 1~2 range.

 

On 1/24/2023 at 10:33 PM, Shadow Mir said:

There is still good 1-2 range in Fates, but you have to be Xander or Ryoma to get it.

I feel that.

There are lots of solid 1~2 range weapons in Fates though. Horse Scroll, Bolt Axe, Bolt Naginata, Levin Sword, Mjolnir, Shinning Bow, Sidelong Yumi, and most Shurikens all slap. And most look downright broken on paper.

Main issue is more everyone not named Xander or Ryoma lacks something critical in:

-good EP stats,

-having a class that can even realistically EP in the first place,

-having the right stats to utilize a solid 1~2 range weapon,

-lacking the right weapon ranks to use the options available,

-lacking a good join time (mostly all of the Capture/Kidnap victims, who take 3~4 chapters to join past when they were jailed),

-having the right skills to operate, especially for Avoid or Vantage builds were things take well into the post game to come online,

-and/or lacking access to critical 1~2 range weapons for a variety of reasons (wrong route, reliant on a random My Castle drop, only one copy to pass around and we're looking at the 2nd best user, etc.)

 

......................

Certainly possible to get multiple units to join Ryoma or Xander as solid 1~2 range units in the timeframe of a respectable run though.

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1 hour ago, 67chrome said:

There are lots of solid 1~2 range weapons in Fates though. Horse Scroll, Bolt Axe, Bolt Naginata, Levin Sword, Mjolnir, Shinning Bow, Sidelong Yumi, and most Shurikens all slap. And most look downright broken on paper.

Calamity Gate is also pretty cool.

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1 hour ago, 67chrome said:

Would it?

Forts/Gates/Thrones are in a position (and often occupied by a foe) that makes such boss tiles way more useful for the enemy AI than the player.

Considering Bosses and Boss tiles go hand-in-hand, I'm not sure much of a change would happen if the 0-drawbacks 1~2 range property was just part of the boss tile's effect.

Like; swap Haitaka's Steel Nageyari out for a Steel Naginata in this case and nothing changes.

Aside from things being cleaner. Same thing would apply to most bosses/maps, very few units lacking the golden boss shield icon wield 1~2 range weapons, very few bosses lack 1~2 range.

Absolutely. Look at something like chapter 7 Revelation. You like the idea of facing off against a Berserker with drawback-free 1-2 range and passive healing in the first actual chapter of the goddamn game, when you only have like two units that can do anything to it? Because I sure as fuck do not. I mean, I find the chapter bad enough already because it's a huge slog; doing that would make it even worse. Also, forts are not strictly boss tiles. Let that sink in.

1 hour ago, 67chrome said:

There are lots of solid 1~2 range weapons in Fates though. Horse Scroll, Bolt Axe, Bolt Naginata, Levin Sword, Mjolnir, Shinning Bow, Sidelong Yumi, and most Shurikens all slap. And most look downright broken on paper.

Main issue is more everyone not named Xander or Ryoma lacks something critical in:

-good EP stats,

-having a class that can even realistically EP in the first place,

-having the right stats to utilize a solid 1~2 range weapon,

-lacking the right weapon ranks to use the options available,

-lacking a good join time (mostly all of the Capture/Kidnap victims, who take 3~4 chapters to join past when they were jailed),

-having the right skills to operate, especially for Avoid or Vantage builds were things take well into the post game to come online,

-and/or lacking access to critical 1~2 range weapons for a variety of reasons (wrong route, reliant on a random My Castle drop, only one copy to pass around and we're looking at the 2nd best user, etc.)

Out of those, the only really worthwhile ones are the Calamity Gate (which you didn't mention) and some Shurikens. Sidelong Yumi is piss weak and has the same restrictions as the Hand Axe and other such weapons, while being a My Castle drop, the magic weapons are inherently limited in terms of usability (ESPECIALLY the Bolt Axe), Mjolnir is a joke and you're better off using something with some actual oomph behind it, and Horse Spirit is also weak.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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22 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Calamity Gate is also pretty cool.

Calamity Gate is pretty solid as well.

For whatever reason I don't really think of that one as a solid 1~2 range weapon though, feels more like a solid weapon that happens to be 1~2 range.

Getting anyware from +10% to +40% Hit/Avo vs. Shurikens and Lances via double WT does have some nifty 1~2 range capacities, though being an Axe/Bow that's weak to other Axe/Bows can certainly cause EP problems depending on the enemy composition. 

I also find it harder to find good users for it, seeing as Shurikens and Lances encompass pretty much every class that hard-counters tome/scroll users on the whole Spd+Res side. At least Calamity Gate offers +1 Spd, +1 Def, which goes some distance in dealing with those.

Certainly amazing in the Ninja Den either way, anything that makes that map even a little easier is certainly worthwhile.

 

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Absolutely. Look at something like chapter 7 Revelation. You like the idea of facing off against a Berserker with drawback-free 1-2 range and passive healing in the first actual chapter of the goddamn game, when you only have like two units that can do anything to it? Because I sure as fuck do not. I mean, I find the chapter bad enough already because it's a huge slog; doing that would make it even worse. Also, forts are not strictly boss tiles. Let that sink in.

I feel we're getting a little off-track here with my musings as to why boss-tiles couldn't be the catalyst of what 27+ weapons and skills like Point-Blank shot exist to accomplish in this game.

With any level of finesse above a rough ROM hack, IS could have figured out a cleaner way to not implement a silly amount of 1~2 range, 0 draw-back enemy weapons.

Certainly would need to polish some of the janky cases like the Berserker Boss in Rev and Forts might be a little much, but still.

 

23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Out of those, the only really worthwhile ones are the Calamity Gate (which you didn't mention) and some Shurikens. Sidelong Yumi is piss weak and has the same restrictions as the Hand Axe and other such weapons, while being a My Castle drop, the magic weapons are inherently limited in terms of usability (ESPECIALLY the Bolt Axe), Mjolnir is a joke and you're better off using something with some actual oomph behind it, and Horse Spirit is also weak.

I feel like you're to dismissive of these.

They take more work to work on an EP kit than Xander or Ryoma, but it's certainly possible to abuse the game with the majority of these.

Mjolnir more with expensive post-game builds (it is the best weapon for Vantage Witch), though all of the Bolt weapons have pretty impressive might (absurdly high for Tomes/Scrolls), negligible draw-backs, and are a strong ending point or goal for a lot of the more customizable units.

..........................

Also yeah, I remember Sidelong Yumi being a lot cooler than a 3 Might Javelin, that one's on me.

..........................

Horse Spirit having low might is certainly an interesting point as it pertains to the general topic of Silver Weapons though. Or I guess high-might, not much else weapons. Especially when comparing the low-might Horse Spirit to the +2 over S-rank tome Excalibur's Might of the Bolt Axe.

 

+3 Spd, +3 Def, and +3 Res are a phenomenal set of easily equipable bonuses.

 

If a Malig Knight Corrin can ORKO with a Bolt Axe or Horse Spirit?

Better to equip Horse Spirit for the enemy phase, takes 3 less damage per hit that lands, and has 24~25% more avoid.

 

If Corrin can't quite ORKO with Bolt Axe?

Still better to equip Horse Spirit, you might Crit or Dragon Fang. And +3 Spd/Def/Res is much better than -20% Avo for EP.

 

If an ORKO with a Bolt Axe is possible not Horse Spirit, but needs to tank 4 enemies? Horse Spirit.

 

If Sakura/Elise want to be in range to help with their aura? Horse Spirit.

If Rinkah or Rhajet or Leo or Odin want to EP things that aren't Ninjas? Horse Spirit.

If you need 1~3 more speed to double? Horse Spirit.

There's rarely a situation were it's a bad call, even when it's the sub-optimal call.

 

Which is also kind of wild vs. the Bolt Axe, seeing as Horse Spirit is only a 5 Might weapon while Bolt Axe is very mighty at 14, a difference of 9.

The Bolt Axe's downsides in can't crit, -20% Avo are also pretty tame.

Just turns out that big-damage isn't everything; there are quite a few situations were the +3 Spd/Def/Res bonuses are worth more than +9 Might, and in practice Horse Spirit is quite good. PCs not dying is more valuable than NPCs dying in most cases, and living to fight another day means another day to deal damage.

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