Would the weapon tiers be better if it worked more like this?

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Post-game is an entirely different paradigm, basically nothing from an ironman or LTC playthrough really translates well into that field.

Mjolnir on my Vantage+Awakening+Nohr Unity Witch Ophelia could easily solo basically any map the post-game content had, and Mjolnir specifically goes from being unreliable to the best EP 1~2 range option.

You mean the nonexistent postgame Fates has???

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Yeah, that's certainly the biggest edge Rajinto and Seigfried have; getting anyone into any of the good 1~2 range weapons is a process.

Exactly.

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Considering Raijinto and Seigfried only work on 1 singular unit, it's not like Bolt Axe needs to be amazing on any more than 1 unit to realistically keep up though.

Which is not easy when there are only a few units that can actually make it effective, and they either are lackluster or have better options.

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

I find the Bolt Axe to be the easiest to put to good use.

Camilla is like, right there. And 2 Spirit Dust away from having a very scary means of reliable 1~2 DMG.

Also the meta Corrin build with Wyvern talent and Magic boon is a thing, which gives Corrin and Kana a fairly easy set-ups for a massive Bolt-Axe shaped power-spike.

Rinkah's also an all-right option when I remember to give her the HP tonic, and Rhajet just has the Oni Chieftain as her innate re-class option.

Funny you say that, because I find it the hardest to make work. Why? Because...

Camilla is better as a Wyvern Lord, as it optimizes her talents.

Corrin can make it work, but I much prefer to set him up to be a tank; he doesn't want for offense, but his defense could use some work.

Rinkah and Rhajat, ESPECIALLY Rinkah, are rather lackluster. As is the Oni Chieftain class in general, to be blunt.

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

The 1~2 range nerf is pretty obviously so Javelin/Hand Axe spam on Seth/Titania/Haar/Jill doesn't allow a player to trivialize the map and make empty deployment slots S tier.

Bingo.

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Oni Chieftain = existing certainly pushes the average pretty hard into the refrigerator side of things; though Basara, Dark Knight, Malig Knight, and Nohr Noble are all on-par with a Paladin in terms of general bulk.

<.< looks at Xander.

Xander is... not the best of examples you coulda brought up. His defensive ability (at least, physically) is hard to rival except for a select few units, all of whom have their flaws. Anyways, I honestly do not think Basara, Oni Chieftain, or Malig Knight are very good.

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

To be fair Malig Knight and Dark Knight both have Great-Knight-tier Spd stats, but fixing up SPD bulk issues when +3 SPD Horse Spirit is the WPN in question, that sure is difficulty: noob tier.

Fixing SPD bulk issues in Fates is pretty easy in general with all of the stat-boosting options, which just get more robust and easier to exploit as the game goes on, especially when units can start promoting.

Spoiler alert: the speed isn't the real problem...

4 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Sorcerer, Onmyoji, and Strategist is were tome/scroll bulk starts getting real dubious. In all 3 cases there base stats usually offer ~+4 MAG at the cost of...basically everything else.

Which is a weird mood when Bolt weapons are in the 11~14 Mgt zone and tomes/scrolls are in the 3~8 Mgt zone. And everyone else can just use those.

Does cause Horse Spirit to take a dive in ORKO potential for the hybrid units, but they all have something meaningful to gain for Spd/Def/Res, and most hybrid units just have useful stat values across the board.

...it's that many, MANY units are not optimised to excel in hybrid classes. I see little to no reason to pick Basara for anyone who can go in it when they're outclassed physically by Spear Master, and magically by... well, any magically inclined class. And that's before the unit's stat discrepancies. Malig Knight and Oni Chieftain fall into that same trap. For you see, you need both high strength and high magic to do well as a hybrid unit in the first place... and most units only have one. Some units are unlucky enough to have neither going for them. (Why hello THERE, Rinkah...) Either way, I find hybrid classes unappealing because they tend to do might and magic both poorly in comparison to those who specialize in one or the other. The few that actually worked in recent memory have been avatar exclusive.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Use the Falchion]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Either way, I find hybrid classes unappealing because they tend to do might and magic both poorly in comparison to those who specialize in one or the other. The few that actually worked in recent memory have been avatar exclusive.

Currently playing Engage, and I'm really liking the Qi Adept classes. It makes me think that the problem isn't that a unit needs high might and magic to function well in a hybrid class, but that classes need more ways to utilize Might and Magic. Framme and other Qi Adepts use Might for the Body Arts/Fist attacks, and then magic for healing.* Since those don't cross over, Framme has a reason to need both Strength and Magic growths and stats. Maybe going forward, if there were units like this, it'd be good?

For example, imagine a unit type - I'm calling it a "Bannerman" in my head for this conversation - who is able to use Strength to Aggro units or has the ability to use Shields as weapons compared to just shields, and also uses Magic or Staves to fortify themselves? Or maybe an Enchanter who can turn physical weapons into magical ones or ones that at least have magical effects, but the quality and duration of the enchantment depend on the unit's Magic/Skill and Strength/HP respectively? In these cases, you'd be incentivized to use both stats outside of just attacking and options, and it creates niches for characters to fill so we're not all using the same class or weapons. 

Anyways, I agree with your point regarding Fates. The Hybrid classes are fun builds, but IMO they're mostly good for the skills they offer, not the Strength/Magic combination they advertise. 

*This isn't new. Nearly every type of Lance-wielding class has been able to use Staves at some point or another. Very few were good at balancing the two, but they have. 

[67chrome]

On 2/1/2023 at 2:11 AM, Shadow Mir said:

...it's that many, MANY units are not optimised to excel in hybrid classes. I see little to no reason to pick Basara for anyone who can go in it when they're outclassed physically by Spear Master, and magically by... well, any magically inclined class.

Hybrid classes outclass pure-casters rather than the other way around.

Tomes & Staves just aren't impressive enough in Fates to justify having poor combat stats.

Hybrid units tend to have enough Atk+Spd+Def+Res to do everything they need to. They're also the only classes that tend to have good combined Def + Res scores, which comes up fairly often.

 

Obnoxious nobody really has the right Str+Mag to capitalize on the hybrid damage aspect, but tunnel-visioning on that ignores what makes a good unit a good unit.

 

On 2/1/2023 at 9:27 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Currently playing Engage, and I'm really liking the Qi Adept classes. It makes me think that the problem isn't that a unit needs high might and magic to function well in a hybrid class, but that classes need more ways to utilize Might and Magic. Framme and other Qi Adepts use Might for the Body Arts/Fist attacks, and then magic for healing.* Since those don't cross over, Framme has a reason to need both Strength and Magic growths and stats. Maybe going forward, if there were units like this, it'd be good?

More ways to utilize Str and Mag can certainly help, though having more ways to use Str and Mag than dedicated physical or magical units isn't usually the issue with hybrid classes. At least from my experience.

.............

Biggest issue for hybrid classes long-term is that Str + Mag is the worst possible stat combination, it's super redundant and basically costs double for the same bonus a dedicated Str or Mag unit would get.

And if the other half is taking tooltip space (or equipment space) away from a rock-solid stat combo like Str+Def or Mag+Spd, you're even deeper in a hole than 1/2 as good.

.............

I guess another issue is that Jack-Of-All-Trades classes walk a tightrope in balance.

Make them C tier at everything: they loose to opposing specialists and the loss of specialists on their own team is felt when they try to cover the bases.

Make them C+ tier at everything: then they reliably win vs. specialists and fluidly cover all the points a team lacks.

 

On 2/1/2023 at 9:27 AM, Use the Falchion said:

For example, imagine a unit type - I'm calling it a "Bannerman" in my head for this conversation - who is able to use Strength to Aggro units or has the ability to use Shields as weapons compared to just shields, and also uses Magic or Staves to fortify themselves? Or maybe an Enchanter who can turn physical weapons into magical ones or ones that at least have magical effects, but the quality and duration of the enchantment depend on the unit's Magic/Skill and Strength/HP respectively? In these cases, you'd be incentivized to use both stats outside of just attacking and options, and it creates niches for characters to fill so we're not all using the same class or weapons

Unique niches are excellent, certainly removes the problems that come from being the awkward middle child and general jack-of-all-trades stuff.

.....................

An enchanter that could swap between physical and magical damage would be dope AF. I'm sure the right transmutation mechanic could offer some really fun results from that.

.....................

Not so sure about staff utility promoting Mag investment though.

Staves tend to work well enough reliably or they don't, there's not a lot of interesting scaling behind them like there is with Str/Spd/Def in combat.  Especially in Fates were base effect of most staves is also ~95% of the reason to use them. 1/3 Mag scaling or +1% hit is mostly there for aesthetics.

 

Also worth noting Aggro-generating units are probably going to be an enemy-phase tank, which need good HP+Atk+Spd+Def+Res to really function (or ideally have abilities that allow one of those to be a dump stat). Spreading an EP unit even further by throwing +MAG/SKL scaling needs in there won't do them any favors long-term.

 

Could be interesting for a pre-promote like Shura (or even Ryoma/Xander) though. If they join late enough in the game you could get by with building everything were they need to for their hybrid kit to work short-term, and then theire excessive build-progression needs could keep them in place like Shura or cause them to actually fall off come end-game.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Hybrid classes outclass pure-casters rather than the other way around.

Tomes & Staves just aren't impressive enough in Fates to justify having poor combat stats.

Hybrid units tend to have enough Atk+Spd+Def+Res to do everything they need to. They're also the only classes that tend to have good combined Def + Res scores, which comes up fairly often.

 

Obnoxious nobody really has the right Str+Mag to capitalize on the hybrid damage aspect, but tunnel-visioning on that ignores what makes a good unit a good unit.

I'd say it's where the stats are placed that matters more than having higher stats. Basara's balanced stats may look good at first glance, but that also means it doesn't excel at anything in particular, which is bad. It can't tank as well as a Great Knight or General, it can't guard against magic as well as a Falcon Knight... the conclusion is obvious, and it's that Basara is a jack of all trades... that manages to be incompetent at all of them. Mixed bulk is nice if you have it, but I wouldn't deem it necessary.

Likewise, tunnel-visioning into the stats alone doesn't tell you the whole story. Magic classes might not have better stats than hybrids, but on the other hand, their stats are more allocated to where it counts.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'm not sure Sorcerer would be a better class for nos-tanking than Dark Knight if the latter could actually use Nosferatu.

[starburst]

On 10/12/2022 at 10:52 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

We all like Conquest, at least if we're cool, but I think we agree its weapons are kinda weird. Some are a lot more intuitive that others, that's for sure, at least. However, taking a little inspiration from the GBA games, I came up with the following weapon progression (brass-iron-steel, etc.) which I think might be interesting, and I'd like some feedback on it

I may be the only one who would take Silver weapons over Brave ones. Let me elaborate.

In the way I play Conquest, with a smaller ten-units party, the great majority of the game takes place in Player Phase. One healer, two front-liners, and seven other units whose main purpose is to wipe screens. This demands great (magical and physical) attack power. The Player-Phase units must be powerful, accurate and fast, to deal the most damage possible in their one chance to defeat the enemy, for they would probably not endure an Enemy Phase in the wild.

The penalties of Silver weapons (and other items like the Dragon Stone Plus and certain tomes) can seriously diminish the abilities of a front-liner, for whom -2 Skill/ Strength/ Magic can easily translate into a -6 (probably -8 if they also attacked on Player Phase) after facing three enemies during a single Enemy Phase.
This, however, does not happen to Player-Phase units.

For the main attackers (Bow-wielders, Sorcerers, Berserkers...) the Silver weapon penalties are effectively a -1 Skill/ Strength/ Magic, for they would attack at full power to kill the enemy, rest on Enemy Phase and then recover one point by the next Player Phase. The penalty of -1 Skill/ Strength/ Magic at the start of each Player Phase may not be critical even after four consecutive phases (1st Player Phase at full attack, 2nd at -1, 3rd at -2, 4th at -3.)
Remember that by the time the main attackers wield Silver weapons, they deal 20-30 per hit; and if they double, that is 40-60 per attack. Having -6 Attack (-3 per hit, doubling) at the start of the 4th consecutive Player Phase wielding Silver weapons when dealing 60 damage should still guarantee any kill, or would at least seriously damage any enemy and let any other unit finish them.
The -3 Skill at that point should also be manageable, for your main attackers should have 25-35 Skill at base by that point anyway.

In the same vein, the Sacrifice Dagger (or however it is called in English) and the Berserker's Axe are great for Kaze and Axe-wielders: these weapons have the highest might at C-level and outstanding accuracy, and losing HP is secondary to Player-Phase units, for they wipe areas.

On my last save from this run on Chapter 27, L20 Bow Knight Mozu deals 42 damage to the Ninja Master and L20 Bow Knight Nina deals 68 (34x2) damage to the Berserker, wielding Silver Bows and with attack-relevant bonuses from pairing-up with A-Support units and meals.

Also in this run, front-liner Nohr Noble Cornflakes had to use her Dragon Stone Plus to kill a zombie on the Stairs to Hell, and she ended up at -8 Skill/ Magic seconds later, for three other zombies piled on her; turning her completely useless for the rest of the (thankfully short) map.

Brave weapons have less might and less accuracy than Silver weapons, cost double and are unique (only one per game.) In my style, the -4 Def/ Res may also be secondary to Player-Phase units, but these units deal more damage for the same gold with a forged Silver weapon.
For 8.000 gold one can get, say, a forged Silver Sword +1 with 14 might and 90 accuracy or a Brave Sword with 6 might and 75 accuracy. The forged Silver hits harder, per hit and in total (x2 vs. x4, if doubling.)
Silver weapons are also available as unique mid-game (after Chapter 13) and infinitely late-game (after Chapter 20.)

Yes, there are instances wherein Brave weapons are the best bet to kill the enemy, say, to kill it without letting it attack or to fill the Guard Bar. But I guarantee you that there are multiple ways to kill that same enemy without it.

The only Brave weapon that I always use is Lightning. But it is very different from the others: It is available mid-game, has 75 accuracy, requires C-level proficiency, costs 3.400 gold and can be forged or given to two or three units.

I would add Killing weapons to the discussion: for 3.000 gold at C-level, one can get, say, a Killing Edge with 6 might, 85 accuracy and +25 % chance of Critical Hit by mid-game. If a Critical Hit lands, damage is multiplied by 4.

Since enemies hit as hard with 1 HP or 100 HP, one should be able to guarantee the kill. But if the numbers do not add up and you need the kill with the final strike, your best bet will always be the hit with a chance to actually kill it (be it though an activation skill or through a Critical Hit.)
A 25 % chance of landing a Critical Hit an killing has a 43,75 % chance if the unit doubles the enemy.

Edited February 4, 2023 by starburst

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, starburst said:

I would add Killing weapons to the discussion: for 3.000 gold at C-level, one can get, say, a Killing Edge with 6 might, 85 accuracy and +25 % chance of Critical Hit by mid-game. If a Critical Hit lands, damage is multiplied by 4.

Since enemies hit as hard with 1 HP or 100 HP, one should be able to guarantee the kill. But if the numbers do not add up and you need the kill with the final strike, your best bet will always be the hit with a chance to actually kill it (be it though an activation skill or through a Critical Hit.)
A 25 % chance of landing a Critical Hit an killing has a 43,75 % chance if the unit doubles the enemy.

I would disagree. I consider this game one of the low points for killer weapons thanks to being saddled with low might alongside not enough crit chance to make up for it. I'd much rather use a forged iron or even a steel instead, as I'd rather have the extra damage than pray that I get lucky with a weak weapon just because it has higher crit chance (not that it matters when crits are overkill 99.9% of the time).

[67chrome]

11 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd say it's where the stats are placed that matters more than having higher stats. Basara's balanced stats may look good at first glance, but that also means it doesn't excel at anything in particular, which is bad. It can't tank as well as a Great Knight or General, it can't guard against magic as well as a Falcon Knight... the conclusion is obvious, and it's that Basara is a jack of all trades... that manages to be incompetent at all of them. Mixed bulk is nice if you have it, but I wouldn't deem it necessary.

Not excelling at anything in particular is certainly a fair criticism.

That's the core draw-back of Clive, along with any Xmas Cavalier or rapier-waggling male-lord that simply keeps pace in levels with everyone else; usually a recipe for disappointment.

Get a level-lead into +3~+4 in everything and they're amazing though.

Puts balanced stat-spreads in a weird spot were they're simultaneously the worst and best stat-spreads, probably the most volatile units form a user to user experience.

 

 

In Fates pretty much everyone leans in a direction, so usually everyone that goes into something like Basara will have some traction to climb out of 'meh' in everything at a 0-level lead.

......................................

......................................

I'd certainly contest the pajamas-crew having stats were it matters though.

Predominantly because this is what happens to Felicia if she becomes an Onmyoji:

Yikes.

With Flame Shuriken existing there's no real excuse for this dramatic of a shift.

Maid/Bulter is also the worst "Str" based class in the context of Arena/combat calculators for whatever that's worth. Not to surprising given it is a utility-heavy class Jackob wants to Heart Seal out of ASAP, and man are the middling Teir 2 stats of Paladin a huge boost to him.

Onmyoji is also notably better than Strategist and Sorcerer in the same Arena/Calc context, at least without Nosferatu considerations.

...................

For Nosferatu user: Sorcerer has garbage values in HP, Str, Def, Skl, Lck, and Spd.

The only thing Sorcerer has going for it is Nosferatu, which sets their hidden +10% Crit bonus to 0%, has -5% hit vs. Steel so RIP hidden +5% Hit bonus, and Nosferatu tanks their Avo% by 20%, which they have no bonus to. At least their hidden +5% Ddg isn't hit?

Also 7 Mgt is 4~7 less than the Levin Sword, Shinning Bow, or Bolt Axe; so if the best users of Arms scroll eat an Arms scroll there's that.

 

50% life-steal and +3 Res at the expense of ~3 and ~10% to everything else is mostly what Sorcerer's are looking at.

 

I've certainly had fun with Odin+Nosferatu, but he's a shaky 11th deployment slot at best, mostly hanging in for Ophelia paralogue. I'd hesitate to call Dark Mage or Sorcerer good.

...................

For the stave/rod utility of the other 2:

Staves/Rods just aren't in the right spot to justify what the Strategist's stat-spread is trying to get away with.

 

Using anything past Heal/Mend is quite a luxury, just by the uses/shop availability/drops.

Some staves only offer 2 uses the entire game, Freeze is on the high-end with 16 uses; and this is in a game with 29 chapters.

 

Mend having 20 base healing is pretty nuts when end-game silver-toting enemies are hitting my competent units for about that much, which is probably the bigger issue. All staves reliably have access to is healing, and even can heal well with the bases.

Which just means classes with a lot of other good qualities and alternate forms of utility, like Falcon Knight and Adventurer, are just going to be way better at the support role than a Mag user who's Mag stat is all they have going for them, and it's mostly there for show.

[67chrome]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:16 PM, starburst said:

I may be the only one who would take Silver weapons over Brave ones.

That feels statistically impossible, lol.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 3:16 PM, starburst said:

For the main attackers (Bow-wielders, Sorcerers, Berserkers...) the Silver weapon penalties are effectively a -1 Skill/ Strength/ Magic, for they would attack at full power to kill the enemy, rest on Enemy Phase and then recover one point by the next Player Phase. The penalty of -1 Skill/ Strength/ Magic at the start of each Player Phase may not be critical even after four consecutive phases (1st Player Phase at full attack, 2nd at -1, 3rd at -2, 4th at -3.)

Yeah, it's certainly much easier to work with than the gross aesthetic it conjures from reading the effect would otherwise imply.

Downsides are pretty manageable on most player-phase nukes.

 

Best silver-weapon by far is Dragonstone+ in my experience though, partially because 25 Mgt gives it a lot of -2 Mag penalties it can stack while still being useful, partially because it's useable by the ~50% of the cast that can fluidly swap between physical and magical weapons, so the -Skl is the only thing that really sticks.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 3:16 PM, starburst said:

For 8.000 gold one can get, say, a forged Silver Sword +1 with 14 might and 90 accuracy or a Brave Sword with 6 might and 75 accuracy. The forged Silver hits harder, per hit and in total (x2 vs. x4, if doubling.)
Silver weapons are also available as unique mid-game (after Chapter 13) and infinitely late-game (after Chapter 20.)

Does it hit harder in total?

One of the biggest boons of Brave weapons is that they double the hits means double damage, and doubles all +Dmg bonuses.

Also doubles all the Str/Mag in excess of a target's Def/Res.

 

18 Mgt +1 Silver Axe vs. 8 Mgt Brave axe is certainly a difference; though here the Brave Axe only needs to be capable of 10 damage to the enemy per-hit to cover the 10 Dmg gap, and any Brave hits that do 11+ will favor brave DPS.

Ignoring the problems -15% hit can cause.

 

Given Silver toting ~end-game enemies hit my units for ~20 damage with their ~40 Mgt attacks, the math adds up for Silver working here though.

Particularly in dual-strike for -8 potential pair-up Str to work with, and not everything can afford Tonics/+Dmg skills.

 

That said: Brave is going to be better (barring hit% issues) when enemies start surpassing 40 HP, which should be around the time everyone is hitting A rank.

 

Silver now in exchange for no Brave later is logic I can certainly get behind though. Some of those mid game maps are a headache, and getting +hit% boosts can be frustrating with how nothing a +2 Skl or +2 Lck bonus is.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 3:16 PM, starburst said:

I would add Killing weapons to the discussion: for 3.000 gold at C-level, one can get, say, a Killing Edge with 6 might, 85 accuracy and +25 % chance of Critical Hit by mid-game. If a Critical Hit lands, damage is multiplied by 4.

Since enemies hit as hard with 1 HP or 100 HP, one should be able to guarantee the kill. But if the numbers do not add up and you need the kill with the final strike, your best bet will always be the hit with a chance to actually kill it (be it though an activation skill or through a Critical Hit.)
A 25 % chance of landing a Critical Hit an killing has a 43,75 % chance if the unit doubles the enemy.

Killer weapons can certainly be a nice alternative.

 

If a unit fails to ORKO or double or hit a key benchmark in the middle of the map, a crit or ~crit skill can certainly save the day; and in some cases it's worth feeling out a map over trying to 4D chess everything in planning phase.

 

I will say Crit/%active strategies also get more reliable when it's a team-wide capability over a solo unit capacity as well.

If everyone has a chance to OHKO an enemy, then ~lucky exactions can happen often enough to reliably save turns that would otherwise need to be set up -> kill combos.

For being C rank weapons or promoted 5 skills, these also do come online during maps that are difficult to get everyone to key benchmarks, so that's nifty. Especially if it's the ~chpt 18? Paralogue were 100% of the jobber enemies in a kid's recruit chapter suddenly get a massive boost in stats/power when the core game is still throwing in unprompted units for variety.

[starburst]

25 minutes ago, 67chrome said:

That said: Brave is going to be better (barring hit% issues) when enemies start surpassing 40 HP, which should be around the time everyone is hitting A rank.

Accuracy is a must for me, I cannot disregard it.
I of course take my chances during each phase, but the accuracy between Silver and Brave weapons is noticeable. Player-Phase units have their one chance to wipe the area, and it has to work.

The one Brave I sometimes buy is the Brave Bow (however it is called), and only when Sniper Mozu or Sniper Azura are on my team. Otherwise I would always get a Silver Bow +1 for the same money for its higher might and accuracy.

 

31 minutes ago, 67chrome said:

If a unit fails to ORKO or double or hit a key benchmark in the middle of the map, a crit or ~crit skill can certainly save the day; and in some cases it's worth feeling out a map over trying to 4D chess everything in planning phase.

I will say Crit/%active strategies also get more reliable when it's a team-wide capability over a solo unit capacity as well.

Exactly!
Killer weapons (or high Critical Hit rates) are you best bet to save the day when something else failed. But they also save moves when given to high-Skill front-liners during Enemy-Phase, or to Player-Phase units who gamble at the beginning of the phase and in Attack Stance.

Nohr Noble +Mag Cornflakes with a Mjölnir +1, Sorcerer Odin with an appropriately and ridiculously engraved tome, Ophelia with three tomes, Sniper Mozu, physical Azura and her children, Hero Silas is a Critical-Hit spree, killing frenzy to enjoy.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:33 PM, 67chrome said:

Not excelling at anything in particular is certainly a fair criticism.

That's the core draw-back of Clive, along with any Xmas Cavalier or rapier-waggling male-lord that simply keeps pace in levels with everyone else; usually a recipe for disappointment.

Get a level-lead into +3~+4 in everything and they're amazing though.

Puts balanced stat-spreads in a weird spot were they're simultaneously the worst and best stat-spreads, probably the most volatile units form a user to user experience.

This whole thing seems to imply (1) they're being massively favoured, and (2) they don't get screwed by the RNG.

On 2/4/2023 at 11:33 PM, 67chrome said:

Also 7 Mgt is 4~7 less than the Levin Sword, Shinning Bow, or Bolt Axe; so if the best users of Arms scroll eat an Arms scroll there's that.

Who are these "best" users of Arms Scrolls??? Because I don't remember that being brought up much, if at all. And again, if you have the magic to actually put weapons like the Levin Sword to use, you're likely magically inclined to begin with, and thus fragile. Which the -20 avoid that magic weapons come with doesn't help. 

On 2/4/2023 at 11:33 PM, 67chrome said:

Which just means classes with a lot of other good qualities and alternate forms of utility, like Falcon Knight and Adventurer, are just going to be way better at the support role than a Mag user who's Mag stat is all they have going for them, and it's mostly there for show.

I don't have too much of a problem with those. But as stated above, any unit with the magic to do any real damage with magic weapons is likely fragile as well.

On 2/4/2023 at 5:16 PM, starburst said:

I may be the only one who would take Silver weapons over Brave ones.

Personally, I find braves too underwhelming for their high rank and price tag. 8000 gold for a weapon with unforged iron level might, 15 less hit than iron, and defense drops (in the case of melee weapons), or halved str/mag in the case of ranged weapons (barring Lightning, which instead deducts mag and skill by 2, but including Snake Spirit)? No thank you.

15 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Killer weapons can certainly be a nice alternative.

 

If a unit fails to ORKO or double or hit a key benchmark in the middle of the map, a crit or ~crit skill can certainly save the day; and in some cases it's worth feeling out a map over trying to 4D chess everything in planning phase.

 

I will say Crit/%active strategies also get more reliable when it's a team-wide capability over a solo unit capacity as well.

If everyone has a chance to OHKO an enemy, then ~lucky exactions can happen often enough to reliably save turns that would otherwise need to be set up -> kill combos.

For being C rank weapons or promoted 5 skills, these also do come online during maps that are difficult to get everyone to key benchmarks, so that's nifty. Especially if it's the ~chpt 18? Paralogue were 100% of the jobber enemies in a kid's recruit chapter suddenly get a massive boost in stats/power when the core game is still throwing in unprompted units for variety.

Like I said above, I find crits unreliable by default. You'd likely have better odds of landing an OHKO move in Pokemon.

[AnonymousSpeed]

10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Like I said above, I find crits unreliable by default. You'd likely have better odds of landing an OHKO move in Pokemon.

Sheer Cold has a hit rate of 30%, which is the default amount of crit a killing edge gives you in addition to a portion of your skill stat.

[Shadow Mir]

14 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Sheer Cold has a hit rate of 30%, which is the default amount of crit a killing edge gives you in addition to a portion of your skill stat.

Technically, the hit rate of OHKO moves improves by 1% for every level difference between the user and opponent. Though by the time you get a notable level gap over your opponent, you might as well just use an actual attack move. This said, though, killers have definitely seen better days. Namely, the games where they were better steels, aka every game but this and Radiant Dawn.

[67chrome]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:08 AM, Shadow Mir said:

This whole thing seems to imply (1) they're being massively favoured, and (2) they don't get screwed by the RNG.

Hard to beat Fire Emblem without massively favoring someone.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 7:08 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Who are these "best" users of Arms Scrolls??? Because I don't remember that being brought up much, if at all. And again, if you have the magic to actually put weapons like the Levin Sword to use, you're likely magically inclined to begin with, and thus fragile. Which the -20 avoid that magic weapons come with doesn't help. 

Anyone who really needs the ranks.

Staff users on promotion are in a pretty rough spot, especially considering their best option is ~usually a Bolt weapon.

Anyone who wants to use a Bolt weapon really wants C rank either way, so they're usually my top priority.

 

Otherwise the vast majority of Fate's roster is pretty OK with the E~D rank options.

Bronze, Brass, Iron, Nosferatu, Horse, 1~2 range, 1 range bow, all effective weaponry (including vs. sword/lance/axe, which is a weird mood), ~80% of what most units need to function is readily available enough.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 7:08 AM, Shadow Mir said:

I don't have too much of a problem with those. But as stated above, any unit with the magic to do any real damage with magic weapons is likely fragile as well.

~half of the Mag characters are frail because there base class has garbage stats.

Get them into most hybrid classes and they get some bulk on-par with a generic Cavalier or Paladin.

 

On 2/6/2023 at 7:08 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Like I said above, I find crits unreliable by default. You'd likely have better odds of landing an OHKO move in Pokemon.

Sure.

But if you miss an OHKO in pokemon: 0 damage is dealt, nothing happens, you go directly to jail and don't collect $200, the L is plastered to your forehead.

 

If you don't crit with a killer weapon in FE: Iron weapon damage still happens.

 

And if an ORKO with a silver weapon or iron forge or w/e wasn't happening either way: using a killer weapon gambles a loss of nothing meaningful to gain something.

Like: are we going to pretend being ~5 damage off from a KO should be followed up by leaving an opponent with 1 HP instead of 5?

They're dead if they're hit by my next guy either way, if there's no next guy they do the same damage regardless of what their HP is.

Edited February 10, 2023 by 67chrome

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Hard to beat Fire Emblem without massively favoring someone.

Okay, but the thing is, the most likely people to get ahead are the units that already start good.

5 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Anyone who really needs the ranks.

Staff users on promotion are in a pretty rough spot, especially considering their best option is ~usually a Bolt weapon.

Anyone who wants to use a Bolt weapon really wants C rank either way, so they're usually my top priority.

 

Otherwise the vast majority of Fate's roster is pretty OK with the E~D rank options.

Bronze, Brass, Iron, Nosferatu, Horse, 1~2 range, 1 range bow, all effective weaponry (including vs. sword/lance/axe, which is a weird mood), ~80% of what most units need to function is readily available enough.

That... doesn't really satisfy me, as in general, I don't really consider weapon ranks that much of an issue other than getting to S rank, which only a small handful of classes can do in the first place, and the S rank weapons mostly aren't worth using.

5 hours ago, 67chrome said:

~half of the Mag characters are frail because there base class has garbage stats.

Get them into most hybrid classes and they get some bulk on-par with a generic Cavalier or Paladin.

They still won't be able to take hits as well as the likes of Corrin, Xander, Benny or what have you. Also, some of the particularly bad cases aren't fixed by that. For example, going Basara ain't gonna fix the fact that Orochi is still gonna be slow as molasses and feeble.

5 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Sure.

But if you miss an OHKO in pokemon: 0 damage is dealt, nothing happens, you go directly to jail and don't collect $200, the L is plastered to your forehead.

 

If you don't crit with a killer weapon in FE: Iron weapon damage still happens.

 

And if an ORKO with a silver weapon or iron forge or w/e wasn't happening either way: using a killer weapon gambles a loss of nothing meaningful to gain something.

Like: are we going to pretend being ~5 damage off from a KO should be followed up by leaving an opponent with 1 HP instead of 5?

They're dead if they're hit by my next guy either way, if there's no next guy they do the same damage regardless of what their HP is.

I half expected you to retort by bringing up the fact that the OHKO moves are banned in competitive play, to be honest. 

Steel weapons have 3-4 more might than iron and killer. That's noticeable.

When in doubt, I'm prolly gonna default to steel or iron depending on the situation or the unit.

[67chrome]

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That... doesn't really satisfy me, as in general, I don't really consider weapon ranks that much of an issue other than getting to S rank, which only a small handful of classes can do in the first place, and the S rank weapons mostly aren't worth using.

The S rank weapons are kind of a let down.

At least Waterwheel and Hagakure Blade are good.

 

Stuff like Arms Scrolls for Levin Sword Ophelia is usually were the Arms Scrolls fun is at for me though.

Gives a smooth transition for a lot of solid skill pick-ups were she can still feels like a pretty solid unit over the journey.

 

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

They still won't be able to take hits as well as the likes of Corrin, Xander, Benny or what have you. Also, some of the particularly bad cases aren't fixed by that. For example, going Basara ain't gonna fix the fact that Orochi is still gonna be slow as molasses and feeble.

Corrin mostly takes hits well by out-leveling things. Like most lords (or Cavaliers), Corrin's stat spread is super average at everything.

If most units are favored as much (or slightly more, given +20% Exp), they'll wind up pretty similar in terms of overall bulk.

Boons/banes can certainly shift this around, but Class + Weaponry + Level-leads can allow for a lot of units to be bulky.

 

.................

 

Orochi is also an interesting case of weirdly average Def on the personal bases/growths side, so put her in a class with a Def stat and she'll have a Def stat.

Her Spd is still an issue, but Spd being one of the most impactful stats in +1 increments also makes it one of the easiest stats to patch-up and stack. Especially for a BR character, spoiled for choice in options there.

Her awful Spd sure does make it easy to bully her though.

 

.................

 

And yeah: Benny-tier bulk is pretty unrealistic on most units, but his bulk is also overkill for most situations. A solid bolt-weapon spamming hybrid unit can do a lot of work while still falling ~7 Def short of Benny-tier.

 

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I half expected you to retort by bringing up the fact that the OHKO moves are banned in competitive play, to be honest. 

They're part of the core game everyone is going to experience.

 

It's also hard to take competitive Pokémon too seriously, Gamefreak's done a lot of self-sabotage with their PvP to insure it takes a back seat to their PvE.

 

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Steel weapons have 3-4 more might than iron and killer. That's noticeable.

When in doubt, I'm prolly gonna default to steel or iron depending on the situation or the unit.

If an ORKO is there with Steel it's obviously Steel. Or if you want more combats for WPN Exp or supports or w/e.

 

Fairly difficult to get in a situations were a unit needs a 3-man pile up to get taken out though, especially with low %active reliance strategies.

If a Killer Weapon only does 40%~50% to a foe, following that up with Steel on the inevitable not-crit should take them out.

And hey, ~25% of the time it's a free ORKO with killer and a free unit action is on the table.

Worth the 1/5th inventory capacity for a good chunk of units, I like improvements to my action economy.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, 67chrome said:

Orochi is also an interesting case of weirdly average Def on the personal bases/growths side, so put her in a class with a Def stat and she'll have a Def stat.

Her Spd is still an issue, but Spd being one of the most impactful stats in +1 increments also makes it one of the easiest stats to patch-up and stack. Especially for a BR character, spoiled for choice in options there.

Her awful Spd sure does make it easy to bully her though.

It's not just her speed, though - it's her everything that ain't magic and skill. Her speed is especially egregious, though, because she struggles to double effing armors. As in the type of enemies a mage should be good at dealing with.

[starburst]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:43 PM, 67chrome said:

Anyone who wants to use a Bolt weapon really wants C rank either way, so they're usually my top priority.

Also useful for going in and out of the Wolfskin classes, say for Shigure and Velouria, for the Rune Stone (at C) is great and because being able to only use Bronze weapons mid-game (when most of your teammates are at rank B) is a noticeable handicap.
Or to use amour-piercing weapons immediately, at rank D, for recently promoted units.
 

On 2/9/2023 at 9:43 PM, 67chrome said:

And if an ORKO with a silver weapon or iron forge or w/e wasn't happening either way: using a killer weapon gambles a loss of nothing meaningful to gain something.

Exacly. This is how all activation skills work in such cases.
 

On 2/10/2023 at 7:14 PM, 67chrome said:

The S rank weapons are kind of a let down.

By the time the S-rank axe is given (end of Chapter 26), I would argue that it is the best axe, unless you had been lucky enough to get a Berserker’s Axe in the random pickups.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, starburst said:

Also useful for going in and out of the Wolfskin classes, say for Shigure and Velouria, for the Rune Stone (at C) is great and because being able to only use Bronze weapons mid-game (when most of your teammates are at rank B) is a noticeable handicap.

I find very little reason to leave those classes.

7 hours ago, starburst said:

By the time the S-rank axe is given (end of Chapter 26), I would argue that it is the best axe, unless you had been lucky enough to get a Berserker’s Axe in the random pickups.

Even with the strength halving effect? Anyway, that's the one S rank weapon I have no issue selling because I just cannot justify using a Berserker. At all. They're too high-risk, low-reward.

[iridium137]

Honestly, one of the biggest reasons why higher-rank weapons look so bad is because you can forge lower-rank weapons to create a weapon that's almost as strong, with none of the drawbacks. For example:
A brave sword costs 8000, and has 6 Mt, 75 hit, brave effect, and Def/Res -4. For the same price, you can forge:
A silver sword +1, which has 14 Mt, 90 hit, dodge -5, and debuff upon use.
A steel sword +2, which has 13 Mt, 87 hit, avoid -5, and attack speed -3.
A iron sword +3, which has 12 Mt, 94 hit, 1 crit.
A bronze sword +4, which has 12 Mt, 109 hit, 10 dodge, and inability to crit/proc.

As long as you don't need crits or proc skills (which you shouldn't be relying on anyway), forged bronze is far and away the best. It has 15 hit over the next best option, and the extra dodge is invaluable in a game where dodge is half luck and there's a plethora of crit-boosting classes. If you do want to use crits or procs, iron is the next best, although 15 less hit and lack of crit protection is concerning. The others have too many drawbacks for almost no gain. Even the proposed silver change isn't enough. The dodge penalty alone is a dealbreaker- the last thing I want is more Arthurs on my team.

[starburst]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:41 AM, iridium137 said:

As long as you don't need crits or proc skills (which you shouldn't be relying on anyway), forged bronze is far and away the best. It has 15 hit over the next best option, and the extra dodge is invaluable in a game where dodge is half luck and there's a plethora of crit-boosting classes.

Do you honestly play like this or are you just making a point through hyperbole? If the former, it must be very dull watching your playing.

On the player's side, activation skills and critical hits's main purpose is not to save the day, but to save moves. Yes, there are instances during a campaign wherein an activation or critical hit triggers and lets us escape a situation that was otherwise unsolvable. But most of the time activation skills and critical hits grant faster kills or more damage, which allows other units to (better) perform different tasks, letting the party advance and complete the map faster. Thus, at the beginning of a Player Phase, one can gamble with attacks that have a higher triggering chance.

In the last third of the game it is very common to have, I do not know, thirty activations or critical hits per map. Sorcerer Ophelia alone consistently has over ten skill activations or critical hits. Hero or Vanguard Silas, Sniper Mozu, Sorcerer or Swordmaster Odin, Berserker or Sniper or Great Knight Azura, Berserker or Wolfssegner Velouria, Berserker or Wolfssegner or Vanguard Shigure, Great Lord Sophie... Phases are very colourful, even when animations are inactive.

I do not count the number of triggers per map but, say, I clear Chapter 23 without letting the enemies attack once on Enemy Phase. A party of ten units (no royals, no Backpacks, no path bonuses, no Internet, no nothing) marches clearing areas on a single Player Phase. Perfectly reproducible with a variety of parties. My guess is that the triggers are key to this clearing march.

Edited February 25, 2023 by starburst