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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The forced loss thing has at least been done well in Spec Ops where the illusion of victory exists, and I've heard Stalker manages to get some of that too, but I'm generally of the opinion that a forced loss is a form of deceit, and not a clever one either. I agree with you and Miyamoto on the first part, but I definitely know which side I want to err on.

I would say that, in examples like the ones I mentioned, it works because there is no deceit; the context of the final mission makes it that there's no illusion of victory. Going into something like Final Fantasy Crisis Core: a prequel about a character that is a posthumous character in FF7, even if one hasn't played FF7, they're not going into the final fight with the illusion that Zack can win.

The exception would be Shadow of the Colossus, where one does not expect the forced loss at the end due to the game being a stealth-prequel to Ico, but that one still works because the table has been turned on the player: the player spent the whole game playing as a human hunting and slaying colossi, and then the game has the player be a colossus unable to win against humans. In a game that is in many ways an analysis of the very concept of boss fights, it makes sense that the player is essentially the final boss at the end.

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