Why is FE3 always forgotten?

[Mars of Aritia]

It seems to me that FE3 seems to be the least popular game in the series, at least on the english side. nobody ever seems to talk about it. I admit I'm a bit guilty of it myself, as it's one of the only games in the series I haven't played along with 2, 12 and 16.

Is it because all of it's surrounding games are more ambitious? 1 established the series (and had a recent english release which helped), 2 went in it's own weird direction, 4 is an incredibly ambitious attempt at gameplay-story integration, and 5 is full blown kaga insanity. 3 does look a bit standard in comparison.

It also has a remake, but that one is also JP only and tends to be divisive. even before that was released, people didn't talk about 3 much.

It is also very strange considering it seems it was a beloved classic in Japan and the best selling game in the series there before awakening. It was the equivalent of something like, say, Secret of Mana was in the west.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mars of Aritia

[Etrurian emperor]

I think its a combination about the Game being Japanese only, and being more basic when compared to the other Japanese only games.

Genealogy and Tracia are one of a kind experiences, but New Mystery is very conventional in both its Gameplay and its story. Lacking the nostalgia that the Japanese players have its easy to imagine why western players would latch on more to the ambitious and unique games than a game that's more like the games they already played. 

[indigoasis]

Adding to previous points, Mystery of the Emblem includes a remake of FE1 in it's first book and then the actual sequel to FE1 in its second book, so it's two games in one, which is fantastic. However, Book I actually has less content than the game it's remaking; I believe entire chapters and characters were removed, so you aren't exactly getting the "definitive" experience that you would get otherwise, but it probably doesn't even matter that much anyway. Then you have a legitimate remake of FE1 in Shadow Dragon on the DS, and say what you will about it, but it was literally the only Archanea game that released outside of Japan for a long time before FE1 got an international (albeit limited time) release.

Then there's New Mystery, which remakes just FE3 and adds in more content (for better or for worse), and even though it's Japan-Only, you have fan-translations to pick up the slack.

So from my limited understanding, FE3 isn't very popular for English audiences because it's supposedly outclassed by FE1, the remake of FE1 that it already tried to remake, its own remake, and other FE titles on the same system. There isn't much reason to play it nowadays besides looking for comparisons and to see what was changed between games.

[Emperor Hardin]

I think its mainly because of the existence of FE12 and FE1 being released here on the virtual console.

That said, I'm planning a hack of FE3 with some quality of life improvements, maybe that'll help a bit?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

When it appeared on the Super Famicom app on Switch, I played a half hour of book 2 and set it down. Awful first map. Looks like something out of Shining Force 1 with the way it restricts and funnels your movement into a slog of enemies in a canyon. And unlike FE1 they spoke in kanji that I couldn't read and had no way of looking up.

I'm probably more likely to try FE3 than 12. But it would definitely be the last of the Kaga Five on my list.

[Robert Stewart]

Probably because there are remakes of both books, and it's the oldest game on the SNES. I think if most people see there's a newer version of some game available, they'll assume it's better and prefer that one.

Lots of people also don't seem to know about the gameplay/other differences between FE1/3B1/11 and FE3B2/12. For the same reason that most people think Echoes renders FE2 irrelevant, I think most people would just assume FE3 is similarly made "irrelevant" by its remakes.

FYIW this is most likely an English fandom specific thing - IIRC FE3 was the best selling game in the series prior to Awakening.

[Jotari]

I have played every game in the series, save the original NES Archanea Saga, and I have to say, of all of them, Old Mystery was the least compelling for me. I don't think it's objectively the worst game in the series, it's just, as people said, the most standard. It might have been the definitive Fire Emblem game in the early 90s, but in the 21st century definitive = least interesting.

And, much as it pains me to say it as I do like Kaga's world building, Old Mystery is not only my least favourite in terms of gameplay, but in terms of plot too. Book 2 is 90% and exposition dump and every songke villain from the first game (except Jiol) is revived for the sequel for absolutely no good reason.

[scigeek101]

I think book one is a huge improvement over the NES original but yes about five chapters are missing. They weren't particularly memorable ones, except maybe the ballista chapter. Technically one of the removed chapters sorta appears in book two. At least the map does, though you go at it from the opposite direction. 

 

It's a real shame they didn't release book two along with book one on the same DS cartridge. I think Shadow Dragon is a pretty excellent remake but New Mystery was the start of a lot of the annoyances that plague later games and it kinda hurts a lot of the tension of the original. 

 

Book one of Mystery is more or less the NES game just better, but book two is legit one of the best games in the series. The map design is tight, it's really cool how they managed to fit in various "clear conditions" in a game where it's only seize. That middle bit where you gotta run from the encroaching army is great. Unfortunately the story is really bad and is basically a collector mcguffin quest where everyone just cedes their kingdom to Marth because.hes the protagonist. Which is a shame because for what it was the original had a pretty tight story. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, scigeek101 said:

I think book one is a huge improvement over the NES original but yes about five chapters are missing. They weren't particularly memorable ones,

How dare you say something so accurate about Pyrathi!

[scigeek101]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

How dare you say something so accurate about Pyrathi!

I mean the boss was cool right? 

Pretty much all the removed chapters were very much "filler". There's that one field one with the huge lake. Barely remembered. I guess it had the first arena. You don't wanna go in the arena in FE3 though unless you cheat. 

Pyrathi was a bit of a loss but again map isn't that memorable besides the boss. 

Then I think the other three that got cut were, the ballista level, which was pretty memorable I think so that was a shame. 

The bridge, which is in book 2 from the opposite direction. Was fun I guess but it was kinda just a defense map where you hunkered down in the middle and hoped for a reprieve of the reinforcements. 

Then I think it was that open field / forest level with loads of dragon knights coming at you. Which I barely remember. I think it's in part 2 as chapter 2 perhaps? 

 

I guess you can dig FE3 B1 for not being the complete experience, but I do think it's a great improvement over the original game. The original is fun and all but Fire Emblem is a series where better technology makes the games way more enjoyable to play. For that matter Shadow Dragon on the DS is easily the definitive edition of this. And wholely supplants the NES original imho, as well as Book 1. 

New Mystery I don't like as much and I think the SNES original is different enough from it that it's worth a go. New Mystery had lower deployment slots and there were way too many recruitable characters to the point it kind of got silly. That said it does benefit greatly from technology advancements. FE3 is admittedly a very old game. And it's nowhere near as approachable as the remakes. 

It's a real shame they didn't just remake book 2 on the same cartridge as shadow dragon while keeping it more or less in line with how Shadow Dragon improved on the original without fundamentally changing a bunch of stuff. 

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, scigeek101 said:

I mean the boss was cool right? 

Pretty much all the removed chapters were very much "filler". There's that one field one with the huge lake. Barely remembered. I guess it had the first arena. You don't wanna go in the arena in FE3 though unless you cheat. 

Pyrathi was a bit of a loss but again map isn't that memorable besides the boss. 

Then I think the other three that got cut were, the ballista level, which was pretty memorable I think so that was a shame. 

The bridge, which is in book 2 from the opposite direction. Was fun I guess but it was kinda just a defense map where you hunkered down in the middle and hoped for a reprieve of the reinforcements. 

Then I think it was that open field / forest level with loads of dragon knights coming at you. Which I barely remember. I think it's in part 2 as chapter 2 perhaps? 

 

I guess you can dig FE3 B1 for not being the complete experience, but I do think it's a great improvement over the original game. The original is fun and all but Fire Emblem is a series where better technology makes the games way more enjoyable to play. For that matter Shadow Dragon on the DS is easily the definitive edition of this. And wholely supplants the NES original imho, as well as Book 1. 

New Mystery I don't like as much and I think the SNES original is different enough from it that it's worth a go. New Mystery had lower deployment slots and there were way too many recruitable characters to the point it kind of got silly. That said it does benefit greatly from technology advancements. FE3 is admittedly a very old game. And it's nowhere near as approachable as the remakes. 

It's a real shame they didn't just remake book 2 on the same cartridge as shadow dragon while keeping it more or less in line with how Shadow Dragon improved on the original without fundamentally changing a bunch of stuff. 

Yeah, like I said, accurate XD But I have a close soft spot for Pyrathi. So much so I'm making a fan game centred around it. Overall, you're right. The Aurelis and Macedon chapters are basically just filler chapters to extend the stay in those countries.

The Wooden Cavalry seems like a distinct and memorable chapter,but when you realise Ballista didn't have long range in NES it becomes clear why it was removed, as it was a rather dull corridor stroll against units who can barely move. Jake and Beck were also removed showing they never really had any intention of making Ballistician a real class.

The Bridge Chapter is significant for the plot though, as it's the first time they fight the Sable Order and the fact that Camus isn't the one facing them as they cross the border into Grust is telling of how short a leash he's on, and I think that's also the impetus to start introducing the Nyna stuff with him. I'm also not sure why it was removed. Surely they could have used the same data from Book 1 and Book 2 to implement the map? Maybe. I don't know how far things were stretched.

One major gripe I have with Old Mystery is how much it reused chapters from the first game. Not just reused, but just redid in the exact same way. With the exception of Soulful Bridge, which you approach from the other side, an idea I really like, all of the reused chapters have you deployed in the same starting location, taking the same route, fighting more or less the same types of enemies. Even though in terms of story, Marth is approaching all of these areas from the opposite direction. Khadein, two Altea maps, Gra, and the Millenium palace outside and inside makes for a total of six maps that are identical to the first installment. 6 out of 24 maps, a quarter of the game, identical to the previous one (and if you count soulful bridge and the final chapter as one chapter, it's 7 out of 21, a third of the game!). And the fact that they're in the same areas isn't a great excuse, as the opening of the game, which takes place in both Macedonia and Grust, all use completely different maps before Soulful Bridge. Maybe they just ran out of time or memory space and had to reuse a bunch of assists. If that's the case then I almost kind of wish Book 1 didn't exist. You're right in that better improvements of technology make it a more user friendly experience than the first game, but it's still not hugely unique. I think I gladly would have ditched book 1 for a more robust and unique book 2.

Anyway, that's a minor tangent rant of mine. In general, yeah, in the year 2010 it would have been great to get Shadow Dragon and New Mystery on one cartridge (especially translated), but it seems like that was never their goal. They focused only on remaking the original NES game and did barely anything to implement the future plot developments and lore introduced in New Mystery (most sorely needed being developing a relationship between Marth and Hardin). Even Jiol's book 1 quote referencing Sheena's existence didn't make it into Shadow Dragon. The only thing I can think of that they did do that came from Old Mystery was Xane's conversation with Tiki, in which we're given the hints that he's working for Gotoh.

[scigeek101]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

One major gripe I have with Old Mystery is how much it reused chapters from the first game

Yeah agreed. I'm guessing a lot of this was due to memory restraints. It's similar to how link to the past dark world was basically a smart trick they used to double the size of the game without actually having to program in a new map. But it definitely could have done with some more variety in book 2. 

I imagine that with the two books together the game was already pretty big for the time. It's interesting they decided to include a remake of the first fire emblem so early in the series. I can't think of many NES games that got SNES remakes besides Mario All Stars. (And well Ninja Gaiden/ and Tetris/Dr Mario)

Maybe they wanted to make the game longer but cut significantly on development time? Or maybe they figured that as a late NES game many customers hadn't played the original by the time the SNES one came out. Dunno. 

I think that generally speaking, the map design in Fe1 is way better than it should be. Especially when we look at the map design of Gaiden, and even FE3 book 2 new maps. I wonder if a lot of the development time of the first game was spent on designing the maps? Seems like Fire Emblem map design is one of those things where it's hard to actually design one that's fun and interesting. 

[Jotari]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:55 AM, scigeek101 said:

Yeah agreed. I'm guessing a lot of this was due to memory restraints. It's similar to how link to the past dark world was basically a smart trick they used to double the size of the game without actually having to program in a new map. But it definitely could have done with some more variety in book 2. 

I imagine that with the two books together the game was already pretty big for the time. It's interesting they decided to include a remake of the first fire emblem so early in the series. I can't think of many NES games that got SNES remakes besides Mario All Stars. (And well Ninja Gaiden/ and Tetris/Dr Mario)

Maybe they wanted to make the game longer but cut significantly on development time? Or maybe they figured that as a late NES game many customers hadn't played the original by the time the SNES one came out. Dunno. 

I think that generally speaking, the map design in Fe1 is way better than it should be. Especially when we look at the map design of Gaiden, and even FE3 book 2 new maps. I wonder if a lot of the development time of the first game was spent on designing the maps? Seems like Fire Emblem map design is one of those things where it's hard to actually design one that's fun and interesting. 

The black hole of Mystery Book 2's desgin is that first map. I don't know what they were smoking when they decided to make that awkward pass the first map of the game. Or even a map at all.

[scigeek101]

On 2/5/2023 at 8:33 AM, Jotari said:

The black hole of Mystery Book 2's desgin is that first map. I don't know what they were smoking when they decided to make that awkward pass the first map of the game. Or even a map at all.

So I think that pass was designed to force you to use the new dismount mechanic. It's easy to forget about that if you've played the remakes which just completely ditch it. 

Dismount is an, odd mechanic to say the least, though it has saved my flyers quite a few times. I don't much see the tactical benefit of dismounting beyond that. 

That said dismounted knights are considered un-promoted in terms of arena grinding so dismounting a paladin or otherwise promoted unit can net you loads of gold.

 

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, scigeek101 said:

So I think that pass was designed to force you to use the new dismount mechanic. It's easy to forget about that if you've played the remakes which just completely ditch it. 

Dismount is an, odd mechanic to say the least, though it has saved my flyers quite a few times. I don't much see the tactical benefit of dismounting beyond that. 

That said dismounted knights are considered un-promoted in terms of arena grinding so dismounting a paladin or otherwise promoted unit can net you loads of gold.

 

There's some sense in teaching about that feature, but I think simply having an indoor section (which I think Thracia pulls later in one of its earlier maps) seems like a better way of doing it. As even dismounted you're slowly crawling through that gap. Besides, how many characters with ponies do you even have in the first map? It's just two, right? Luke and Arran?

[scigeek101]

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There's some sense in teaching about that feature, but I think simply having an indoor section (which I think Thracia pulls later in one of its earlier maps) seems like a better way of doing it. As even dismounted you're slowly crawling through that gap. Besides, how many characters with ponies do you even have in the first map? It's just two, right? Luke and Arran?

If I recall they give you four calvary. 3 unpremotes and one Jeagan type. 

 

[Skyteppelin]

I wish it wasn't I love FE3 and really think it has a lot of unique stuff about it that make it stand out, The spheres, how tiki abd bantu work, how dragon's do damage, a really charming but simple story. Fantastic maps all around especially in the middle half of the game. Its a real shame