New characters concept for a Fire Emblem 9 and 10 remake

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If they wanted to "lean in" on the "Ashera is raising the dead" approach, they could bring back previous bosses in the game. Say, zombie versions of Jarod, Septimus, and Valtome, among others. Maybe even characters from the last game, like Shiharam or Seeker. Not sure if that messes with the lore too much.

Regarding the Wolf villain, we'd need an explanation for him and his allies surviving the great petrification. Perhaps they hid out in the same building as the others in III-E? Alternatively, maybe Ashera doesn't recognize Hatari as part of Tellius, so they don't get petrified. One more way to run it - most of the Wolf's forces actually do get petrified, and he confronts Yune, since she was the one singing the Galdr of release. Figuring that teaming up to defeat Ashera is the only way to save his allies, he forms an alliance of convenience with our heroes. Of course, this would derail the "cold-hearted, power-hungry villain" angle.

While I like the Hatari angle, a lot, it actually isn't needed, right? Since strong people were just capable of avoiding the petrification beams (or am I thinking of Buu's human extinction attack?). I mean, Bastian and Caineghis are fine without Yune. She does later tell them where to go, but does she also remotely depetrify them (and if so, why did she de-petrify Izuka?).

Regarding a zombie boss, I don't think it would interfere with lore, Ashera can do whatever she wants (though decomposition might be a headscratcher), but rather it would interfere with geography. How would Jarod or Shiharam's corpse get all the way to Sienne. I guess Ashera could warp them, but still, why? The only corpse I could see her going to the trouble with in that regard is Ashnard because of his fame and strength, and Lehran might have something of a soft spot for him. But I'm not sure I'd like that as bringing Ashnard back for that purpose might undercut his own villain status. Though it would be interesting to see how he views the world he was inadvertently trying to create.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

(and if so, why did she de-petrify Izuka?).

Did she? I think the insinuation of Izuka's encounter with the party was that he was acting on his own.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Did she? I think the insinuation of Izuka's encounter with the party was that he was acting on his own.

Well then why is Izuka not petrified? It's not like he was collaborating with Ashera and the disciples of order. The only conclusion is that, much like Buu's human extinction attack in Dragon Ball, some strong individuals could just...dodge the kill sat.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well then why is Izuka not petrified? It's not like he was collaborating with Ashera and the disciples of order. The only conclusion is that, much like Buu's human extinction attack in Dragon Ball, some strong individuals could just...dodge the kill sat.

I'm pretty sure it's stated to be just that. Ashera had just awoken, so her Judgement wasn't absolute, allowing for certain individuals to just... not be affected. Either due to their own power, or some other reason. The Branded because Ashera wasn't aware they existed. The merchants because they were inside the building as Yune stated she protected everybody inside, etc. That's why Yune says they had to hurry. Otherwise Ashera would recover enough energy to do the Judgement again, and this time there wouldn't be a chance to avoid it (though I suppose the Branded would once again be immune).

Simply put, Izuka had the strength to not be affected by the first Judgement. It's just that he happened to be the only one not friendly with the heroes.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm pretty sure it's stated to be just that. Ashera had just awoken, so her Judgement wasn't absolute, allowing for certain individuals to just... not be affected. Either due to their own power, or some other reason. The Branded because Ashera wasn't aware they existed. The merchants because they were inside the building as Yune stated she protected everybody inside, etc. That's why Yune says they had to hurry. Otherwise Ashera would recover enough energy to do the Judgement again, and this time there wouldn't be a chance to avoid it (though I suppose the Branded would once again be immune).

Simply put, Izuka had the strength to not be affected by the first Judgement. It's just that he happened to be the only one not friendly with the heroes.

Yeah, so that refers back to what I said about there not needing a reason why the wolves would be unpetrified, as good as the explanation that they're from Hatari is.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Vicious Sal said:

Nailah: You have too many opinions. I’m done talking.

Goddamn, new forum weapon found.

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Personally, I've always had this thought. Like, Ashera didn't petrified the Branded because she legit didn't knew they existed. Would she know about Hatari? Not to mention, the petrification was in regards to the pledge the Beorc and Laguz of Tellius made. Was Hatari part of that? I'd think not.

It's an interesting question - did residents from Hatari need to participate for a war where "all the nations of Tellius" are involved? That would explain why Yune never came close to being released in the last war - since nobody from Hatari was there participating. Conversely, you could say that the difference was not in Hatari, but in Goldoa. See, Nasir, Ena, and (technically) Rajaion participated in the Mad King's War, but all of them could plausibly say they're not fighting on Goldoa's behalf. Compare to the next war, where Kurthnaga gets involved - as a Crown Prince acting of his own volition, he essentially drags Goldoa into the war.

@Jotari regarding Ashera's judgement, yes, it does appear that a handful of people outside the player's armies at the time - and outside Yune's direct vicinity - were spared petrification. This is nebulously hand-waved as some people "being strong enough", whatever that means. It appears to include Bastian, Izuka, Caineghis, and a few others. But it's not all "was-playables", as Largo is explicitly affected. The only group known to have broadly been overlooked are the Branded.

While I'd be fine with "Wolf leader" getting spared for being "strong enough", I don't believe that the same courtesy should be extended to his crew. They'd essentially be the only known "generics" to get this treatment. So if you want all of them to be spared petrification, I think a "Hatari = blind spot" is a more palatable explanation.

[Acacia Sgt]

13 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But it's not all "was-playables", as Largo is explicitly affected.

I mean, he did lost an arm. That probably put him under the threshold, heh.

But yeah, I don't think we'll ever know the actual reason, outside "can still use the entire playable party".

[Jotari]

54 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Goddamn, new forum weapon found.

It's an interesting question - did residents from Hatari need to participate for a war where "all the nations of Tellius" are involved? That would explain why Yune never came close to being released in the last war - since nobody from Hatari was there participating. Conversely, you could say that the difference was not in Hatari, but in Goldoa. See, Nasir, Ena, and (technically) Rajaion participated in the Mad King's War, but all of them could plausibly say they're not fighting on Goldoa's behalf. Compare to the next war, where Kurthnaga gets involved - as a Crown Prince acting of his own volition, he essentially drags Goldoa into the war.

@Jotari regarding Ashera's judgement, yes, it does appear that a handful of people outside the player's armies at the time - and outside Yune's direct vicinity - were spared petrification. This is nebulously hand-waved as some people "being strong enough", whatever that means. It appears to include Bastian, Izuka, Caineghis, and a few others. But it's not all "was-playables", as Largo is explicitly affected. The only group known to have broadly been overlooked are the Branded.

While I'd be fine with "Wolf leader" getting spared for being "strong enough", I don't believe that the same courtesy should be extended to his crew. They'd essentially be the only known "generics" to get this treatment. So if you want all of them to be spared petrification, I think a "Hatari = blind spot" is a more palatable explanation.

I honestly think I might have more issues with the mass petrification than I do with the blood pact as a plot point. Though the key word is might. On the one hand, it's a pretty epic display of Ashera's power, the silent word it creates is eerie, the disciples of order are fun (and very believable) as a new take on Fire Emblems religious fanatics and the branded not being affected shows her fallibility well (though that also brings up a lot of unanswered questions about the brand). On the other hand, man oh man is it contrived that so many people with unfinished plot arcs are either spared petrification or have it reversed. Like, how many named characters still alive actually are petrified? Is it... literally just Largo? And maybe that never seen Heron King? It almost gets to the point of why even have it as a plot point? You only end up fighting the Begnion senate anyway (despite Lehran kind of hating all of them and blaming everything on them, leaving the best explanation as to why we're fighting them being so he can enjoy watching Lekain die a second time). And of course it all just gets reversed at the end and everything is a-okay because the continent suffering an actual apocalypse would be too depressing (still, rip every pegagus knight and draco rider and especially bird Laguz in mid flight when it happened I guess).

[Acacia Sgt]

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

(though that also brings up a lot of unanswered questions about the brand).

Hm? How so? I think it's pretty clear cut.

The Branded did not exist when the pledge was made. Ergo, they can't be judged by Ashera as they never pledged anything to her. Hence why all avoided the petrification.

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

because the continent suffering an actual apocalypse would be too depressing

Say, have you already played through, or at least know of, the Fell Xenologues?

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Hm? How so? I think it's pretty clear cut.

The Branded did not exist when the pledge was made. Ergo, they can't be judged by Ashera as they never pledged anything to her. Hence why all avoided the petrification.

Mostly in what the brand actually is and where it comes from. When it's left up to divine will then that's fine and all, there's some kind of explanation even if it's highly fantastical. Then when you later retcon that it's explicitly not divine will it just begs the question... how does it work? How can a natural process manifest in a kind of Mark of Cane physical symbol on the skin. And if not punishment from the gods then why does the Laguz parent lose the ability to transform as a result of procreation (pregnancy would be a viable reason for a female but it's not just for female Laguz with a human fetish). I'm sure you've seen all these questions and attempted justifications before. But as far as the game goes it's just a big question mark. They kind of sacrificed robust world building for thematic resonance, which is usually the better choice to be fair.

30 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Say, have you already played through, or at least know of, the Fell Xenologues?

Of Engage, no. Though I have for Awakening and I can't imagine things getting much worse than that even though you do beat Grima in Future's Past. Still those are alternate scenarios and not the main setting.

[Acacia Sgt]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Mostly in what the brand actually is and where it comes from. When it's left up to divine will then that's fine and all, there's some kind of explanation even if it's highly fantastical. Then when you later retcon that it's explicitly not divine will it just begs the question... how does it work? How can a natural process manifest in a kind of Mark of Cane physical symbol on the skin. And if not punishment from the gods then why does the Laguz parent lose the ability to transform as a result of procreation (pregnancy would be a viable reason for a female but it's not just for female Laguz with a human fetish). I'm sure you've seen all these questions and attempted justifications before. But as far as the game goes it's just a big question mark. They kind of sacrificed robust world building for thematic resonance, which is usually the better choice to be fair.

Yeah, that's certainly true. At the end of the day, the Branded remain a mystery. But yeah, what the people make out of them while nothing is fully known yet was the whole point.

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Of Engage, no. Though I have for Awakening and I can't imagine things getting much worse than that even though you do beat Grima in Future's Past. Still those are alternate scenarios and not the main setting.

True, but they still exist.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

True, but they still exist.

Well yeah, but there's a huge tonal difference between presenting a story where everyone just straight up dies at the end and an alternative scenario branched off of a traditional happy ending.

[Metal Flash]

While I don`t think the idea of giving Zelgius a wife is bad in of itself, making her Ike`s older sister feels unneeded. As Berkut and Conrad have stated, it rarely works for remakes to give the lord(s) new relatives.

That being said, I think there are some interesting ways a wife of Zelgius could work. In particular, I like the idea of them being married purely for show, and there being little actual love between them. This helps keep Sephiran as the most important person to Zelgius.

Trying to add new Laguz types feels like it would mess too much with the current way things are set up.

[Jotari]

I kind of feel like Zelgius plain wouldn't marry. As the whole slow aging thing would make him stay away from romance in general and even procreation he'd be wary of given how little he appreciates being branded. I guess you could make it a purely political arrangement with a wife he basically never sees, but that leads back to the central question of why?

[Metal Flash]

That is a fair point.

Looking at some of other ideas, I think having another female in the Greil Mercenaries could be neat. Making her a Sword Cavalier could even be a opportunity to make use of the unused female Sword Cavalier in Path of Radiance.

A new Dawn Brigade member would also be nice. Though it could also backfire since the DB already struggle keeping up once Part 1 ends.

I also like there being a new Crimean Knight to replace Titania. Maybe make her a Valkyrie so that the CK don`t have to rely on ally Bishops to heal them.

[King Marth 64]

Instead of giving Ike an older sister that marries to Zelgius. Why not give Elincia a Conrad style sibling or a cousin for the Tellius remakes? I think she's like one of the few FE main characters doesn't have a sibling.

[Acacia Sgt]

36 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

Instead of giving Ike an older sister that marries to Zelgius. Why not give Elincia a Conrad style sibling or a cousin for the Tellius remakes? I think she's like one of the few FE main characters doesn't have a sibling.

That's bound to make things much more interesting in regard's to Elincia's own claim to the throne. She was passed over in favor of her uncle, only getting the throne because he went MIA. A sibling would likewise be in the same boat, while a cousin would be the heir, specially if they're Renning's child.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

Instead of giving Ike an older sister that marries to Zelgius. Why not give Elincia a Conrad style sibling or a cousin for the Tellius remakes? I think she's like one of the few FE main characters doesn't have a sibling.

 

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's bound to make things much more interesting in regard's to Elincia's own claim to the throne. She was passed over in favor of her uncle, only getting the throne because he went MIA. A sibling would likewise be in the same boat, while a cousin would be the heir, specially if they're Renning's child.

They have two options for something like that. Either ignore it completely like Shadows of Valentia did, or make a big deal of it...neither option do I think is good. Ignoring it is pretty much a plot hole and dealing with it is a plot tumor. Again it goes back to the question of "Why?" Elincia is meant to be Crimea's last hope, that's the entire point of her character. Celica is too, to a certain extent, but both games deal with different themes. Choice is much more important for Gaiden's story, Celica has the option to not be a Princess and to continue hiding, it's a major moment of decision making for her to embrace her heritage, and if Conrad would better integrate than his existence would have furthered that it was a decision. Furthermore, Gaiden's theme overall is about doing away with the old world, so the ruler of Zofia is less important compared to the shape of how things will be. Whereas for Path of Radiance Elincia and what she represents is the continuation of Crimea's existence as a nation. Ashnard is posed to destroy it and the very world. So her being crowned is much more important and why it's the scene the game ends on. You also have Elincia as a foil for Ike with both of them being thrust into positions of leadership and responsibility as a result of tragic circumstances. You lose that if there is another heir and a potential choice for Elincia. The only way to get around it is to pull an identical plot point to Conrad and have the second heir hidden away somewhere and when they are revealed Elincia is already established as the leader everyone is behind...but, uh, Tellius already did exactly that by having Renning actually be alive. So not only would you be rehashing Shadows of Valentia, but you'd be rehashing Tellius itself!

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

They have two options for something like that. Either ignore it completely like Shadows of Valentia did, or make a big deal of it...neither option do I think is good. Ignoring it is pretty much a plot hole and dealing with it is a plot tumor. Again it goes back to the question of "Why?" Elincia is meant to be Crimea's last hope, that's the entire point of her character. Celica is too, to a certain extent, but both games deal with different themes. Choice is much more important for Gaiden's story, Celica has the option to not be a Princess and to continue hiding, it's a major moment of decision making for her to embrace her heritage, and if Conrad would better integrate than his existence would have furthered that it was a decision. Furthermore, Gaiden's theme overall is about doing away with the old world, so the ruler of Zofia is less important compared to the shape of how things will be. Whereas for Path of Radiance Elincia and what she represents is the continuation of Crimea's existence as a nation. Ashnard is posed to destroy it and the very world. So her being crowned is much more important and why it's the scene the game ends on. You also have Elincia as a foil for Ike with both of them being thrust into positions of leadership and responsibility as a result of tragic circumstances. You lose that if there is another heir and a potential choice for Elincia. The only way to get around it is to pull an identical plot point to Conrad and have the second heir hidden away somewhere and when they are revealed Elincia is already established as the leader everyone is behind...but, uh, Tellius already did exactly that by having Renning actually be alive. So not only would you be rehashing Shadows of Valentia, but you'd be rehashing Tellius itself!

Not to mention, Elincia herself also did it. After all, from what I recall, she was actually raised in secret, to the point that in the early chapters even the mercs are surprise to hear that King Ramon had a daughter, and some, like Soren naturally, were suspicious of the claim.

So Renning being the heir, at least in the eyes of the public, wasn't that he was chosen over his niece. It's that he was seemingly the only one to succeed the apparently childless Ramon, as his younger brother.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not to mention, Elincia herself also did it. After all, from what I recall, she was actually raised in secret, to the point that in the early chapters even the mercs are surprise to hear that King Ramon had a daughter, and some, like Soren naturally, were suspicious of the claim.

So Renning being the heir, at least in the eyes of the public, wasn't that he was chosen over his niece. It's that he was seemingly the only one to succeed the apparently childless Ramon, as his younger brother.

I was going to say the only reason to give Elincia a sibling is "because I want her to have a close partner to bounce off" and I was going to suggest instead of making a new sibling character make a retainer character who is as close as a sibling that escapes with her, then you get the characterisation of a sibling without royal headaches...but then I realized Elincia already has a retainer she's practically sisters with in the form of Lucia...and you know what, moving Lucia's recruitment to the start of the game makes a tonne of sense. You get to see her actual dynamic with Elincia rather than it being mostly told. Her coming with both Geoffrey and Bastian was always kind of backloading the roster and having Lucia around helps foreshadow Bastian and Geoffrey more rather than Elincia just finding a bunch of people she knows that we are clueless about. And as has been pointed out, there aren't a whole lot of swordunits in the early game (though that was for sword cavalry which is more of a hole than a second myrmidon).

[Metal Flash]

If they HAD to add a brother for Elincia, a way to have him not interfere with her claim to the throne would be to make him illegitimate. But I think having Lucia join earlier and highlight sibling-like relationship with Elincia would be a much better alternative. 

Seeing Berkut being mentioned reminds me of the suggestion for him to join so that we had a user for the Royal Sword when Alm obtains the Falchion. I really liked that idea.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Metal Flash

[lenticular]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I was going to say the only reason to give Elincia a sibling is "because I want her to have a close partner to bounce off" and I was going to suggest instead of making a new sibling character make a retainer character who is as close as a sibling that escapes with her, then you get the characterisation of a sibling without royal headaches...but then I realized Elincia already has a retainer she's practically sisters with in the form of Lucia...and you know what, moving Lucia's recruitment to the start of the game makes a tonne of sense. You get to see her actual dynamic with Elincia rather than it being mostly told. Her coming with both Geoffrey and Bastian was always kind of backloading the roster and having Lucia around helps foreshadow Bastian and Geoffrey more rather than Elincia just finding a bunch of people she knows that we are clueless about. And as has been pointed out, there aren't a whole lot of swordunits in the early game (though that was for sword cavalry which is more of a hole than a second myrmidon).

I really like this idea. I mean, I'm a big Lucia fan, so I would do, but I think it's a good idea beyond just that. Another benefit would be that spending more time with Lucia and Elincia together, seeing their bond, and getting attached to her yourself would really up the tension and the emotional stakes by the time the end of Part II of Radiant Dawn rolled around.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:26 PM, Metal Flash said:

A new Dawn Brigade member would also be nice. Though it could also backfire since the DB already struggle keeping up once Part 1 ends.

Maybe someone new (and promoted) who joins in III-6? It's weird to think that a year has passed, and our heroes haven't made any new friends. An elemental Mage would be stellar, since you have all these Laguz to kill. Would also help players who let a ton of units die in Part I.

On 4/28/2023 at 3:33 AM, Jotari said:

And as has been pointed out, there aren't a whole lot of swordunits in the early game (though that was for sword cavalry which is more of a hole than a second myrmidon).

I do worry that Mia would be hopelessly overshadowed in this case. Like, PoR!Mia is already a bad unit. But introducing her after a female Swordmaster who surpasses her in every regard? She'd stand no chance.

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe someone new (and promoted) who joins in III-6? It's weird to think that a year has passed, and our heroes haven't made any new friends. An elemental Mage would be stellar, since you have all these Laguz to kill. Would also help players who let a ton of units die in Part I.

They do appearantly make friends with Goran, that one Warrior with a crossbow who acts as the boss of the bridge level and is seen nowhere else despite being pretty in with Micaiah's cult of personality and considered important enough to guard that rather vital spot (he also has more leadership stars than Micaiah, which isn't relevant but it is funny).

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I do worry that Mia would be hopelessly overshadowed in this case. Like, PoR!Mia is already a bad unit. But introducing her after a female Swordmaster who surpasses her in every regard? She'd stand no chance.

I wasn't working under the assumption that Lucia would keep her endgame class and stats.

[Metal Flash]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe someone new (and promoted) who joins in III-6? It's weird to think that a year has passed, and our heroes haven't made any new friends. An elemental Mage would be stellar, since you have all these Laguz to kill. Would also help players who let a ton of units die in Part I.

That could work, the Dawn Brigade also lacks a non-light mage, since Illyana leaves the group once part I ends.

That reminds me of an idea I saw a while back, someone suggested giving Laura  dark magic instead of light, since Micaiah already covers that. While a neat idea, it doesn`t change that Radiant Dawn hates mages her low speed and HP leads her to die to a stiff breeze.