You must pick one character to give Knight as their Heart Seal class

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Base Ch 16 Felica has 80 hit on the Beast Stone + Nine tails (Ch 16 Jakob also has 77 hit). Even if you miss, you could always just shelter them out of danger.

Though I got to ask, how do you take care of them? 66 odd  avoid is rough for anyone. Offensive staves are one of the more accurate options against them. What do for them instead?

I often have a good Corrin for them to get debuffed attacking (well, unless it's an illusion turn for them, at least). Also, terrain affects the accuracy of status staves, and they move freely through forests. This being said, I often attack them from range (particularly with anti-beast weapons) because as stated before, they can do jack shit about it.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[EdeaCreamer]

Out of the Conquest-recruitable cast, I would probably go with Charlotte (her status as inevitable Xander-statstick aside).

Charlotte's primary problem as a unit is her absolutely garbage defensive stats; a stiff breeze will knock her over even with her strong HP growth. The 15% (20% compared to Berserker) growth bonus to Def from Knight-tree classes is nice, but not the primary reason said tree would help her; it's the skills.  Defense +2, Natural Cover, Armored Blow and Pavise are all options for dramatically improving her ability to handle attacks from physical opponents, and both promotions for Knight are capable of wielding Axes, so training/maintaining effectiveness during the re-class period would be a non-issue for her (as opposed to Troubadour, which...I am uncertain what the devs were thinking, there, other than fanservice).

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:39 PM, EdeaCreamer said:

as opposed to Troubadour, which...I am uncertain what the devs were thinking, there, other than fanservice

Probably that it was the sort of class Charlotte would try to present as being- a frail support unit. Very neat line of reasoning, though.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:39 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

1) Effie never really needs Strength tonics while doubling. 2) And you're not applying a Speed Tonic every chapter. They should be only used when their relevant for benchmarks. You're not going to put a Speed Tonic on her for Ch 17, 19, and 25 for instance.

1) I´m not going to do the math for this. Though I did mess about with numbers last week in cq22 and she does need STR tonics there. Pretty sure she already fails 1rkoing in cq13, she´s got 22 str, Iron Lance is 7 Might and the enemies have 13-19DEF on the meaningful ones + neutral/bad WT.

2) So Effie doesn´t consistently double? ok

goalposts or some idk

On 11/15/2022 at 6:39 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

You only reclass for the final level, so it's really 124 Hit for the most of it. Combined with the Skl/Luk Tonic plus Attack stance that's 139. Add on Inspiring song and that's 144. That's enough to consistently hit the normal beaststone and Rune Kitsune, and a freeze staff will even out the nine tails evasion.

yeah, gaining 29 hit for -1HP-1STR-2SPD-2DEF

we´ve reached levels of investment that´d make Mozu blush, for a skill

On 11/15/2022 at 6:39 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

When did I ever claim that averages don't matter? All I'm claiming is that units need less levels to hit benchmarks with cooking.

On 11/14/2022 at 7:13 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Losing out on a couple stats that are not even guaranteed

[LoneRecon400]

Promoted 15/1 GK Effie averages 22 Strength and 13 Spd. With a Steel Lance, her personal, and C Lances, she reaches 36 atk. With a Speed Pair up, that's enough to one round the paired up Knights and Wyvern Riders in Ch 13, even considering weapon triangle disadvantage with the latter.

By Chapter 22 she can rely on Rally Speed, so she can get a +Str Pair up instead of just a straight speed one. An average 15/12 GK Effie averages 31 Str and 19 Spd, so with a Berserker Pair up, Rally Speed,  and Speed tonic, she reaches 54 Atk and 29 Spd with a Steel Lance. That's enough to one round the Paired Oni chieftains, who are substantially bulkier than anything on the map. (And she wouldn't even need the tonic if you allowed cooking.) 

So no, an early promoted Effie does not require Strength Tonics to be capable of one rounding all game long. 

I dont understand why you'd complain how Effie can't double some of the fastest enemies in conquest when it doesn't even benefit her. She can simply opt to one shot ninjas and kitsune instead, which is a lot more useful than just having overkill Speed.

What investment? A Heart Seal is really the only thing of value lost, and an infinite amount of them become available 2 chapters later. The easiest way of beating that chapter has always been just setting up a juggernaught and having them solo sections of the map. This may take more thought and positioning, but it's not really that much different in terms of investment.

For someone who's claiming that an early promoted effie does not consistently double midspeed enemies or one round, you sure aren't providing any numbers to actually proves that claim

Edited November 24, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[LoneRecon400]

Been playing through Conquest again, figured I might as well show an example of how getting Rally Speed in Chapter 19 works in practice.

Edited December 11, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 12/10/2022 at 5:09 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Been playing through Conquest again, figured I might as well show an example of how getting Rally Speed in Chapter 19 works in practice.

Oh hey, didn't see this. Very cool, thank you for sharing!

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Answering the original prompt, how about Keaton? The Fighter class is already well-represented: Arthur and Charlotte have it by default, while Beruka and Benny can Heart Seal into it. Getting Knight instead would highlight the more defensive, bulky orientation of Keaton and the Wolfskins in general, in contrast to the fast-but-frail Kitsune tribe. And if Velouria inherits the class as a backup, she could get red armor that mirrors her cloak.

[67chrome]

I'd second Keaton.

Natural Cover is more of an interesting pick-up on the beast units than most, seeing as tree/pillar tile costs are just 1 for them.

Also a really awkward skill on Knights TBH, seeing as 2 move tiles are pretty rough for them to easily access. Probably one of the worst skill/class pair-ups.

But on target: Keaton and especially Velouria would appreciate having the Great Knight promotion in their base line-up. Berserker is an all right option for both, but it does have the same pair-up bonuses as Wolfsigger, which also applies passive crit bonuses.

[AnonymousSpeed]

While I like Laslow getting Rally Strength from Keaton friendship, Knight!Keaton does sound pretty interesting. It's a neat argument from variety, certainly. Maybe having a bulky enemy-phase tank with Grisly Would could be interesting, too.

[Mordred]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:53 PM, Shadow Mir said:

If fast and weak enemies were all the game had, then maybe, but he's doubled by pretty much everything. That's problematic, and it isn't like he's so durable that he's shrugging off everything. Also, I wouldn't consider faster shield gauge building good enough to make up for always taking double damage.

I would actually argue against this considering how high Benny's base Def is.  The actual problem with Benny is the fact that Conquest Ai will not attack units they do 0 dmg against so Benny's actual problem is always having too much Def to actually be targeted.  His Def is so dumbby big that you can literally not use him for two chapters unpromoted after getting him and he'll finally start to take some damage against physical units.

[Mordred]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Answering the original prompt, how about Keaton? The Fighter class is already well-represented: Arthur and Charlotte have it by default, while Beruka and Benny can Heart Seal into it. Getting Knight instead would highlight the more defensive, bulky orientation of Keaton and the Wolfskins in general, in contrast to the fast-but-frail Kitsune tribe. And if Velouria inherits the class as a backup, she could get red armor that mirrors her cloak.

I do think that it removing Fighter from Keaton would instead remove Utility from Keaton.  We already have Benny and Effie who are already strong in their classes due to Benny's absurd Def and Effie's strong offenses.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Effie has the same Str growth while having higher Spd growths than Keaton.  

[Mordred]

If I could choose anyone in Fates I guess it would be Beruka, she gets Fighter as an option but considering her Speed she doesn't do too well in the class.  It wouldn't be too good but I just think it's funny imagining an assassin being a General.

[starburst]

On 11/5/2022 at 12:16 PM, Imuabicus said:

Yeah, maybe in the lategame but not in the earlygame - maybe not before Kitsune chapter.

(About turning Effie into a Sniper)

One only needs about 25 Def (stacked, not at base) for the Kitsune Chapter, which many units can reach. Hero Silas or Noble Cornflakes can walk around the whole map, any Wyvern Lord works. Properly stacked Paladins, Dark Knights, Great Knights, Wolfsegners can do it too. Even Sniper Mozu with a Short Bow can sustain Enemy Phases.
The easiest way is to use a cross formation with Elise at the centre. A more dynamic alternative is having Rally Defence.

I do not use Xander or Camilla or Generals, but they trivialise this map.

 

On 11/6/2022 at 11:45 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

I think Kaze is an interesting choice for knight talent

For the story, right? Because his growths and bases would not pull it off.
He would not be useless, just like General Azura is actually very capable. But, for me, a class that plays the role or a front-liner must be able to endure tough situations, and they would not. Their Defence would be that of, say, Sniper Mozu or Sorcerer Odin.
Then again, I am pickier because I only use ten units.

 

On 11/13/2022 at 3:32 AM, avengerfive said:

The best thing about knight is the Great Knight guard stance boosts, +2 Str +4 Def +1 Mov if I remember correctly. But if I had to give it to someone, maybe Xander? You could make some Pavise/Aegis/Sol meme build or something.

Great Knight Azura (from the Cavalier line) is awesome: like 35 Strength with 30 Speed, 30 Skill and 25 Defence (bases, before stacking), with enough accuracy to hit everyone with Axes and enough Skill to activate Luna and land Critical Hits often.
And if you let her get Speed +5 from her Pegasus line, she doubles most enemies. (Bonus points if you also let her get Rally Speed.)

 

On 11/14/2022 at 3:13 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Food isn't even that big of a deal for the amount of attention it's getting. It's just a nice bonus that is there so that units are less dependent on level ups.

Exactly. It is very odd to me that people do not value what is given to them. It is like finding 1 € on the street and complaining because it is not a 5 €. 😂

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 11/23/2022 at 8:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

I dont understand why you'd complain how Effie can't double some of the fastest enemies in conquest when it doesn't even benefit her. She can simply opt to one shot ninjas and kitsune instead, which is a lot more useful than just having overkill Speed.

On 11/5/2022 at 7:59 PM, Imuabicus said:

What does CQ13 not have a lot of? Hoshidan enemies. What else does it have? Some of the slowest enemy classes in the game. What did I forget to mention? The faster enemies (Samurai, Ninja, Pegasus) tend to be physically frail, thus enabling Effie to 1HKO.

You say nothing I haven´t mentioned prior already and imagine a lot.

On 11/23/2022 at 8:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

For someone who's claiming that an early promoted effie does not consistently double midspeed enemies or one round, you sure aren't providing any numbers to actually proves that claim

Aight 

Might I remind you, that her doubling plenty of mid-speed enemies was your point, one which you have only been capable of defending by shoving every mechanic up Effies speed stat imaginable. It´s consistent in the amount of ressources it requires to keep it afloat. Furthermore I fail to see why providing evidence for your point falls to me?

On a side not, neither Knights, Wyverns or Onis are midspeed enemies. These enemies also have something else in common.

I´ve done math for every single of your examples? Additionally, since we derailed this thread, the main focus of my argument has been that whatever it is you are trying to argue here, is unnessecary at best and wasteful in any case.

But anyway here´s a breakdown of your prepromoted Effie, at level 10 in CQ chapter 10 with +2 lvls/chapter, and the enemies she doubles. Without all the investment, like constant steroid influx, earlypromoting Kaze (cringe), strange Rally strats, etc. Obviously gaining 2 levels per map is unrealistic, but hey, maybe it´s gonna help her.

Spoiler

1/20 - 10spd -> chapter 10
3/20 - 11spd -> chapter 11
5/20 - 12spd -> chapter 12
7/20 - 14spd -> chapter 13
9/20 - 15spd -> chapter 14
11/20 - 16spd -> chapter 16
13/20 - 17spd -> chapter 17
15/20 - 18spd -> chapter 18
17/20 - 19spd -> chapter 19
19/20 - 20spd -> chapter 20
20/20 - 21spd (28) -> chapter 21

Breakdown of enemy speed in respective chapter:

10 - 9-19spd
11 - 9-23spd
12 - 9-22spd
13 - 6-21spd - she doubles Knights and Wyverns, the slowest enemy in the game. Damn do they have high Def, if only there was some other stat we could target.
14 - 11-20spd
16 - 9-24spd - would you look at that, Effie doubles Dark Mages, also slow enemies. Chapter 8 Dark Mages have 5 SPD for reference.
17 - 17-27spd
18 - 15-23spd - Boss has WF, so no doubling. sad great speed stat noises
19 - 15-30spd - Thank god Effie can double Beastrune Kitsune as a Great Knight now. Otherwise this Beastkiller might have gotten bloodstains on it.
20 - 21-27spd 
21 - 10-26spd - Stoneborn have WF. sad great speed stat noises
22 - 19-37spd
23 - 22-28spd
24 - 20-35spd
25 - 24-40spd
26 - 22-32spd - If only WF didn´t exist on these Stoneborn. Bah, there´s no way a unit could double without speed at this point in the game right?
27 - 15-41spd - Phew, make sure these Shrine Maidens are REALLY dead.
28 - 17-37spd - Damn these 13 SPD Generals with their WF.

In conclusion, I´mma go ahead and say your early promoted Effie, with an unreasonable lvl gain and thus higher than normal speed stat, barely doubles the slowest of enemies, but that just leads to 2 more scenarios: attacking into high Def targets, which require additional investment into her Str stat or she attacks squishies who are probably getting OHKO-ed either by shit stats (Mages) or Effective weaponry.

On 11/23/2022 at 8:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

What investment? A Heart Seal is really the only thing of value lost, and an infinite amount of them become available 2 chapters later. The easiest way of beating that chapter has always been just setting up a juggernaught and having them solo sections of the map. This may take more thought and positioning, but it's not really that much different in terms of investment.

pays 2k for skill and babies for a map - calls it no investment

happy Mozu noises

On 2/5/2023 at 1:24 AM, starburst said:

Exactly. It is very odd to me that people do not value what is given to them. It is like finding 1 € on the street and complaining because it is not a 5 €. 😂

How do I reset irl?

Quote

She can simply opt to one shot ninjas and kitsune instead, which is a lot more useful than just having overkill Speed.

This sentence is uniquely funny to me, considering Effie shares the CQ spot for the highest STR growth, is in a class with the second highest growth for a total of 80% growth no matter the promotion (lest you go Maid for w/e reason) )a PS that specifically increases dmg when BIG STRONG and a quick support building with the second highest STR-PU in CQ that also adds extra accuracy. Add to that a shit spd base and a coinflip growth with a slight dip in your favor in GK and you´d think it´s obvious we have a unit perfectly set-up for inflicting heavy if not ohko-ing amounts of damage with a single attack and possibly effective damage for them Generals, but no, here we are, trying to double slow enemies who coincidentially also happen to have high DEF and the lowest RES on the map. Also this being Fates, where STR/MAG have no real fall-off in usefulness considering attack stance exists, and the fact that the Brave Lance becomes available right before lategame, would allow Effie to peruse her dmg output even then, but Attack Stance existing hasn´t yet caught on, 7 to 8 years after release. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Imuabicus

[LoneRecon400]

On 2/12/2023 at 11:48 AM, Imuabicus said:

On a side note, neither Knights, Wyverns or Onis are midspeed enemies. These enemies also have something else in common.

Might I remind you, that her doubling plenty of mid-speed enemies was your point, one which you have only been capable of defending by shoving every mechanic up Effies speed stat imaginable. It´s consistent in the amount of ressources it requires to keep it afloat. Furthermore I fail to see why providing evidence for your point falls to me?

I´ve done math for every single of your examples? Additionally, since we derailed this thread, the main focus of my argument has been that whatever it is you are trying to argue here, is unnessecary at best and wasteful in any case.

But anyway here´s a breakdown of your prepromoted Effie, at level 10 in CQ chapter 10 with +2 lvls/chapter, and the enemies she doubles. Without all the investment, like constant steroid influx, earlypromoting Kaze (cringe), strange Rally strats, etc. Obviously gaining 2 levels per map is unrealistic, but hey, maybe it´s gonna help her.

  Reveal hidden contents

1/20 - 10spd -> chapter 10
3/20 - 11spd -> chapter 11
5/20 - 12spd -> chapter 12
7/20 - 14spd -> chapter 13
9/20 - 15spd -> chapter 14
11/20 - 16spd -> chapter 16
13/20 - 17spd -> chapter 17
15/20 - 18spd -> chapter 18
17/20 - 19spd -> chapter 19
19/20 - 20spd -> chapter 20
20/20 - 21spd (28) -> chapter 21

Breakdown of enemy speed in respective chapter:

10 - 9-19spd
11 - 9-23spd
12 - 9-22spd
13 - 6-21spd - she doubles Knights and Wyverns, the slowest enemy in the game. Damn do they have high Def, if only there was some other stat we could target.
14 - 11-20spd
16 - 9-24spd - would you look at that, Effie doubles Dark Mages, also slow enemies. Chapter 8 Dark Mages have 5 SPD for reference.
17 - 17-27spd
18 - 15-23spd - Boss has WF, so no doubling. sad great speed stat noises
19 - 15-30spd - Thank god Effie can double Beastrune Kitsune as a Great Knight now. Otherwise this Beastkiller might have gotten bloodstains on it.
20 - 21-27spd 
21 - 10-26spd - Stoneborn have WF. sad great speed stat noises
22 - 19-37spd
23 - 22-28spd
24 - 20-35spd
25 - 24-40spd
26 - 22-32spd - If only WF didn´t exist on these Stoneborn. Bah, there´s no way a unit could double without speed at this point in the game right?
27 - 15-41spd - Phew, make sure these Shrine Maidens are REALLY dead.
28 - 17-37spd - Damn these 13 SPD Generals with their WF.

In conclusion, I´mma go ahead and say your early promoted Effie, with an unreasonable lvl gain and thus higher than normal speed stat, barely doubles the slowest of enemies, but that just leads to 2 more scenarios: attacking into high Def targets, which require additional investment into her Str stat or she attacks squishies who are probably getting OHKO-ed either by shit stats (Mages) or Effective weaponry.

pays 2k for skill and babies for a map - calls it no investment

happy Mozu noises

How do I reset irl?

This sentence is uniquely funny to me, considering Effie shares the CQ spot for the highest STR growth, is in a class with the second highest growth for a total of 80% growth no matter the promotion (lest you go Maid for w/e reason) )a PS that specifically increases dmg when BIG STRONG and a quick support building with the second highest STR-PU in CQ that also adds extra accuracy. Add to that a shit spd base and a coinflip growth with a slight dip in your favor in GK and you´d think it´s obvious we have a unit perfectly set-up for inflicting heavy if not ohko-ing amounts of damage with a single attack and possibly effective damage for them Generals, but no, here we are, trying to double slow enemies who coincidentially also happen to have high DEF and the lowest RES on the map. Also this being Fates, where STR/MAG have no real fall-off in usefulness considering attack stance exists, and the fact that the Brave Lance becomes available right before lategame, would allow Effie to peruse her dmg output even then, but Attack Stance existing hasn´t yet caught on, 7 to 8 years after release. 

No, Effie can double mid speed enemies like Spear Masters, Master of Arms, Blacksmiths, Basaras,  Kinshi Knights, Heroes, Berserkers and Faceless. But of course, if you're not going to give her the readily available resources to do so she wouldn't be able to. Not many units in Conquest can regularly double without those things. 

It's not like Effie is the only recipient of these resources either. Every unit should get a good pair up that helps their stats, tonics to reach benchmarks for the map, and rallies later on to be able to one round easily. It's not like i'm saying she should be eating every speedwing or having Azura dance for her every turn for special dance. It's just the basic assumption of what every unit should get.

How is it babying to feed a unit kills? Babying would imply you need to set up kills for them using other units. That Kinshi was able one round the majority of enemies on the map. That's not babying, that's just called being a useful unit who can move on to help the entire team without a drop of exp afterwards.

It's not her like her Strength goes away if you don't give her a Strength Pair up. She can still one shot a decent chunk of enemies without one. And I don't understand how you can say Strength / Magic don't fall off with Attack Stance.

Attack Stance is just straight up inferior to guard stance in most cases. Attack Stance does nothing to help with stats, does not build shield gauge, does not block enemy attack stance, can have shaky hit rates on the non supporting units (especially with brave weapons), and is difficult to utilize on Enemy Phase. The only thing Attack Stance really useful for is the accuracy bonus, which is more of a nice to have than anything actually necessary. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[starburst]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Attack Stance is just straight up inferior to guard stance in most cases. Attack Stance does nothing to help with stats, does not build shield gauge, does not block enemy attack stance, can have shaky hit rates on the non supporting units (especially with brave weapons), and is difficult to utilize on Enemy Phase. The only thing Attack Stance really useful for is the accuracy bonus, which is more of a nice to have than anything actually necessary.

Or you simply do not know any other way to play the game.

Attack Stance is the only way to advance in dozens of instances, specially if you use smaller parties, say, ten units. It triples your attacking power, but you are used to incapable Backpacks. It is a waste to use trained units as Backpacks, for they deal equal or more damage than front-liners.

I have completed at least twenty campaigns (on Hard and Lunatic) with ten units, banning Backpacks and pre-promoted units. Eltosian Kadath even did it on Lunatic without using Guard Stance at all.
Conquest takes place on Player Phase 90 % of the time. A ten-units party marches wiping areas on Player Phase, not letting the enemy attack.

Chapter 23 is probably the best example: one Player Phase to kill the masked magicians and lancers, one Player Phase to kill their reinforcements, one Player Phase to wipe Hinata’s team, one Player Phase to kill the masked magicians and the Sniper, one Player Phase to kill Rally Man & Co., one Player Phase to dispatch the Master of Arms’s parade, one Player Phase to kill the Snipers and lancers on the roof, and one Player Phase to wipe Oboro’s party.
How hard do these enemy parties hit? I would not know, they never have a single Enemy Phase to show it. 👻

All of this with ten units, no Backpacks, no royals, no DLC, no My Castle, no multiple-paths bonuses, no nothing.

It is easier to break the game with Backpacks, and Guard Stance is not superior to Attack Stance, just more basic.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by starburst

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

No, Effie can double mid speed enemies like Spear Masters, Master of Arms, Blacksmiths, Basaras,  Kinshi Knights, Heroes, Berserkers and Faceless. But of course, if you're not going to give her the readily available resources to do so she wouldn't be able to. Not many units in Conquest can regularly double without those things. 

Yeah, like Kaze, Niles, Nyx, Elise, Camilla, Shura, Selena, Peri, Charlotte, Azura, Spd+Corrin, Archer!Mozu, all these units with a significantly better base speed and many of them a better growth (Mozu being the single one exception and still having +2spd at -5 lvls) and that´s before going into eugenics. No doubt your experience of little doubling comes from screwing your units by early promoting. 

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

It's not like Effie is the only recipient of these resources either. Every unit should get a good pair up that helps their stats, tonics to reach benchmarks for the map, and rallies later on to be able to one round easily. It's not like i'm saying she should be eating every speedwing or having Azura dance for her every turn for special dance. It's just the basic assumption of what every unit should get.

According to the Book of LoneRecon400 or what? Who died and made you Kaga? You have me curious: do you try different builds in FE, mess with units, or just repeat the most optimal builds? Because it sure as hell sounds like you play the game with a LTC guide open.

There´s 2 units in Fate that should have a dedicated PU-bot and that´s Xander and Ryoma.

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

How is it babying to feed a unit kills? Babying would imply you need to set up kills for them using other units. That Kinshi was able one round the majority of enemies on the map. That's not babying, that's just called being a useful unit who can move on to help the entire team without a drop of exp afterwards.

bruh

"lemme focus my ressources on one unit and present it in it´s most advantagous situation, I swear it´s not babying"

you made a video tryna show off one unit ffs

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

It's not her like her Strength goes away if you don't give her a Strength Pair up. She can still one shot a decent chunk of enemies without one. And I don't understand how you can say Strength / Magic don't fall off with Attack Stance.

Bolded: Which enemies? Dark Mages? Diviners? Shrine Maidens? Archers? Fighters? Spear Fighters? Mercenaries? Onis? Armors? Wyverns? Cavaliers? Samurai? Pegasus? Outlaws? Troubadours? 

If she can easily one tap them, why would we need her to double? OHKOing is better than getting retaliated on. 

Cursive: What´s there not to understand? Higher STR/MAG enables more kills even if AS didn´t exist, with AS these stats can be used more than once a turn.

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Attack Stance is just straight up inferior to guard stance in most cases. Attack Stance does nothing to help with stats, does not build shield gauge, does not block enemy attack stance, can have shaky hit rates on the non supporting units (especially with brave weapons), and is difficult to utilize on Enemy Phase. The only thing Attack Stance really useful for is the accuracy bonus, which is more of a nice to have than anything actually necessary. 

Wrong. Your doubling Effie is getting hit by all kinds of stat downs, those result in HP loss because suddenly any combination of her str/skl/spd/def/res is down and god forbid a unit with Grizzly Wounds or Poisonous Strike is in there and survives, which is going to happen because your thought experiment of quick Effie doesn´t play out in an empty room. This also ignores that enemies might have effective weaponry themselves, ranged weaponry, magic weapons or stand on terrain and whatever else I might be forgetting.

AS also keeps your units clear of debuffs (I guess it does help with stats huh) because you can 1hko more enemies or just have a greater chance at doing so, which also frees up healers to deal chip/debuff use other staves or nuke in the case of an Elise, not having your deployment limit/2 give much more potential to get kills in a single turn, because every unit can do something, even if it´s just to pair up and increase another units stats in turn opening more options and shaky hit rates are primarily a concern if you were a certain member of this forum.

GS is good for EP to be sure, but EP is bad in CQ, hence the many complaints about Ninjas in general, too many skills on enemies, Ninja Hell, Kitsune Hell, chapter 20 etc. The advantage of AS over GS is summarized in that it keeps more options open.

Your argument reads like the greatest discovery in Fire Emblem was to equip a Javelin on Marcus /Seth/Titania and click "Wait". That doesn´t fly in CQ, or not easily.

[LoneRecon400]

12 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Yeah, like Kaze, Niles, Nyx, Elise, Camilla, Shura, Selena, Peri, Charlotte, Azura, Spd+Corrin, Archer!Mozu, all these units with a significantly better base speed and many of them a better growth. No doubt your experience of little doubling comes from screwing your units by early promoting. 

Do you try different builds in FE, mess with units, or just repeat the most optimal builds? Because it sure as hell sounds like you play the game with a LTC guide open.

If she can easily one tap them, why would we need her to double? OHKOing is better than getting retaliated on. 

Wrong. Your doubling Effie is getting hit by all kinds of stat downs, those result in HP loss because suddenly any combination of her str/skl/spd/def/res is down and god forbid a unit with Grizzly Wounds or Poisonous Strike is in there and survives, which is going to happen because your thought experiment of quick Effie doesn´t play out in an empty room

AS also keeps your units clear of debuffs (I guess it does help with stats huh) because you can 1hko more enemies or just have a greater chance at doing so, which also frees up healers to deal chip/debuff use other staves or nuke in the case of an Elise, not having your deployment limit/2 give much more potential to get kills in a single turn, because every unit can do something, even if it´s just to pair up and increase another units stats in turn opening more options and shaky hit rates are primarily a concern if you were a certain member of this forum.

GS is good for EP to be sure, but EP is bad in CQ, hence the many complaints about Ninjas in general, too many skills on enemies, Ninja Hell, Kitsune Hell, chapter 20 etc. The advantage of AS over GS is summarized in that it keeps more options open.

Are we really going to neglect to mention the other half other cast that does need investment to double? Half those units aren't even capable of one rounding without a pair up, and some units like Nyx and Peri don't even regularly double with steel weapons that they need to use to one round without forges. But clearly, I'm just promoting units like Xander and Leo too early. 

When did I ever imply anything even related to LTC? I raise Mozu up on the regular. That should should tell you how much I LTC. 

Doubling is generally better than ohkoing. It builds up more Shield gauge, relies less on using relatively low hit weapons like Steel, and scales much better than one shoting. The only case where one shoting preferable is in the presence of ranged enemies without a good 1-2 range option, which tend to be on the flimsy side.

You make it sound it like there's a trade off between Effie one shoting and doubling or that she can't muscle through debuffs. On the chapters where that matters, you can easily have her one shot enemies even with debuffs.

Take Chapter 17 for instance. A 15/7 GK Effie averages 27 Strength. Combined with a zerker pair up and forged javelin, that's enough to reach the 48 atk benchmark on one shotting the Chapter 17 Master ninjas even accounting for the Steel Shuriken Debuff.  And you could replace the forge with Rally Strength if you really dislike forging. You could even have her one shot the dreaded Chapter 25 Ninjas on Enemy Phase, since Silver Shuriken doesn't debuff Strength.

How the heck is Enemy Phase in Conquest bad? Those chapters you listed are some where Guard Stance shine the most. Those chapters encourage dispatching enemies proactively with gimmicks like Saizo, Illusions and the wind, which is what Guard Stance excels at. It allows units to reach the benchmark required to one round while making them substantially bulkier, allowing them to clear out sections of enemies by themselves.

Take Chapter 20 for instance. Hayato is pretty scary with his Hexing Rod, and the wind makes it easy for units to end up in his range by accident. He's guarded by 3 Falco knights, 4 Onmyoji's, a Paired up Spearfighter for attack stance, and himself having Luna. Yet, Guard Stance is capable of making flimsy units like Kaze capable of taking all those units out pretty handily on turn 1, making the map much more approachable.

If you think Enemy Phase is bad in Conquest, you really need to reevaluate it's potential.

Edited February 23, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 2/17/2023 at 6:19 PM, LoneRecon400 said:

Not many units in Conquest can regularly double without those things. 

5 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Are we really going to neglect to mention the other half other cast that does need investment to double? Half those units aren't even capable of one rounding without a pair up, and some units like Nyx and Peri don't even regularly double with steel weapons that they need to use to one round without forges. But clearly, I'm just promoting units like Xander and Leo too early. 

I give you halve the cast before considering child units which I think qualifys for many units and this is your response?

Damn, shoulda said something earlier about 1rkoing instead of shifting goalposts like that.

Ah, I see the the problem: you haven´t played a Fire Emblem game otherwise you might know that rarely can we promote already promoted units. PM me for more useful tips whenever you feel like it; I want you to enjoy this franchise whenever you start playing, ok?

5 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

How the heck is Enemy Phase in Conquest bad? Those chapters you listed are some where Guard Stance shine the most. Those chapters encourage dispatching enemies proactively with gimmicks like Saizo, Illusions and the wind, which is what Guard Stance excels at. It allows units to reach the benchmark required to one round while making them substantially bulkier, allowing them to clear out sections of enemies by themselves.

lol

proactively

yeah that´s playerphase

5 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You make it sound it like there's a trade off between Effie one shoting and doubling or that she can't muscle through debuffs. On the chapters where that matters, you can easily have her one shot enemies even with debuffs.

Take Chapter 17 for instance. A 15/7 GK Effie averages 27 Strength. Combined with a zerker pair up and forged javelin, that's enough to reach the 48 atk benchmark on one shotting the Chapter 17 Master ninjas even accounting for the Steel Shuriken Debuff.  And you could replace the forge with Rally Strength if you really dislike forging. You could even have her one shot the dreaded Chapter 25 Ninjas on Enemy Phase, since Silver Shuriken doesn't debuff Strength.

Very nice, and on a side note a 20/2 GK Effie has the same stats and granted I know not enough about early promoted unit exp gains, but 15/7 Effie seems pretty high, considering getting Camilla to 5 before chapter 17 requires feeding her kills. 

You are right Silver Shuriken don´t debuff Str, they only debuff -4 SPD/DEF/RES.

Hm, if my calcs are correct and I ran it with A Lances, which is unlikely but also not overly important, you are running with a 86% chance for Ninjas and  77% chance for Master Ninjas to dodge and activate any combo of Poison Strike/Grizzly Wounds aside from the chip and less than chip the Ninjas already deal. Chances are a lil better because of Fates RNG I think, but I´m too lazy to look that up.

But, and this I´m not entirely clear about cuz I´d have to do some testing, Steel Shurikens -3 also affects the units dodge so by extension the Javelin +5 effective speed would also apply I imagine, so throw - 7 to all them hitrates. Roughly 1/4 of Ninjas survives, chunking for chip and -20/40% 

Also, i just realized this, your 15/7 Effie has 22 Def, meaning Ninjas won´t attack her unless debuffed but w/e; she has 16 spd so Steel Shuriken MN double her for 4/8, 8/16 +20/40%, Silver MN should go for  7/14, 11/22 +20/40% on her 33HP person and then there´s the Mechanists, the Automatons, the Samurai and the Swordmasters, at least one of which has an Armor Slayer and another a Dual Katana +1 from reinforcements but all of that is math I assume you´ll do/check since it´s your argument right? As I ramble, with the Silver debuff we sittin at 12 spd, enough for Samurai to double her with that sweet Quickdraw for 26+4-WTD(5,6 dmg?) damage and Silver Shuriken Mechanist should be sitting at 10/14dmg times two nevermind the Steel Shuriken LaD Mechanist in the middle of the map with his one time 17/21 dmg. 

Also also, there´s Automatons with their Saws and Big Saws, debuffing for -4, -6 Str and as off -4str we don´t 1rko MN anymore so guaranteed Poison Strike/Grizzly Wounds proccs. Ofc, all this ignores that Effie will then carry her lessend performance as well, requiring mo healing and so on and so forth.

With great precision you picked 1 out of 2 chapters you really don´t want to be attacked in and used it to make your argument. Like an ICBM to the foot.

5 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Take Chapter 20 for instance. Hayato is pretty scary with his Hexing Rod, and the wind makes it easy for units to end up in his range by accident. He's guarded by 3 Falco knights, 4 Onmyoji's, a Paired up Spearfighter for attack stance, and himself having Luna. Yet, Guard Stance is capable of making flimsy units like Kaze capable of taking all those units out pretty handily on turn 1, making the map much more approachable.

lmao

Flimsy unit you say, when he stands to have among the highest Res stats in the game, with 5 out of 9 enemies being magic users and only one having Calamity Gate, most likely the highest avoid out of your team, having WTA over 4 of 5 Omnyojis, no doubt you put him on that juicy +1def/10avoid pillar and pegasus knights being modestly str-weak enemies.

All of that, and there is still a chance Kaze just keels over to the Spearmaster and any combination of Hayato/Luna or Falcon Knights, making all of this a cause for reset.

(Not to mention your early promoted Kaze is going to be even weaker, requiring even more ressources.)

But yeah. Guard Stance mvp here. 

5 hours ago, LoneRecon400 said:

If you think Enemy Phase is bad in Conquest, you really need to reevaluate it's potential.

Considering my own experiences with EP and all of the above where you presented 1) a good reason not to EP, 2) what might be the single most biased situation in favor of a unit you can put them in which is still a dubious situation at best, 3) you not having been capable of producing a single one argument, much less a convincing one, in favor of EP and worse even not been capable of identifying situations throughout CQ´s 28 chapter long base campaign in which EP would actually be more preferable and the fact that differences in playstyle has been completely absent from any of your remarks unless it´s to push what´s your opinion as a "basic assumption" as you call it ... yeah is bad.

 

Regardless; I think I´ll excuse myself from this topic now, if you would. The amount of time it takes to gather the enemy types, stats, skills, equipment, doing the math to put your statements into the appropriate broader context isn´t worth it, I realize now.

[LoneRecon400]

7 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Hm, if my calcs are correct and I ran it with A Lances, which is unlikely but also not overly important, you are running with a 86% chance for Ninjas and  77% chance for Master Ninjas to dodge and activate any combo of Poison Strike/Grizzly Wounds aside from the chip and less than chip the Ninjas already deal. Chances are a lil better because of Fates RNG I think, but I´m too lazy to look that up.

But, and this I´m not entirely clear about cuz I´d have to do some testing, Steel Shurikens -3 also affects the units dodge so by extension the Javelin +5 effective speed would also apply I imagine, so throw - 7 to all them hitrates. Roughly 1/4 of Ninjas survives, chunking for chip and -20/40% 

Also, i just realized this, your 15/7 Effie has 22 Def, meaning Ninjas won´t attack her unless debuffed but w/e; she has 16 spd so Steel Shuriken MN double her for 4/8, 8/16 +20/40%, Silver MN should go for  7/14, 11/22 +20/40% on her 33HP person and then there´s the Mechanists, the Automatons, the Samurai and the Swordmasters, at least one of which has an Armor Slayer and another a Dual Katana +1 from reinforcements but all of that is math I assume you´ll do/check since it´s your argument right? As I ramble, with the Silver debuff we sittin at 12 spd, enough for Samurai to double her with that sweet Quickdraw for 26+4-WTD(5,6 dmg?) damage and Silver Shuriken Mechanist should be sitting at 10/14dmg times two nevermind the Steel Shuriken LaD Mechanist in the middle of the map with his one time 17/21 dmg. 

Also also, there´s Automatons with their Saws and Big Saws, debuffing for -4, -6 Str and as off -4str we don´t 1rko MN anymore so guaranteed Poison Strike/Grizzly Wounds proccs. Ofc, all this ignores that Effie will then carry her lessend performance as well, requiring mo healing and so on and so forth.

With great precision you picked 1 out of 2 chapters you really don´t want to be attacked in and used it to make your argument. Like an ICBM to the foot.

lmao

Flimsy unit you say, when he stands to have among the highest Res stats in the game, with 5 out of 9 enemies being magic users and only one having Calamity Gate, most likely the highest avoid out of your team, having WTA over 4 of 5 Omnyojis, no doubt you put him on that juicy +1def/10avoid pillar and pegasus knights being modestly str-weak enemies.

All of that, and there is still a chance Kaze just keels over to the Spearmaster and any combination of Hayato/Luna or Falcon Knights, making all of this a cause for reset.

(Not to mention your early promoted Kaze is going to be even weaker, requiring even more ressources.)

But yeah. Guard Stance mvp here. 

Considering my own experiences with EP and all of the above where you presented 1) a good reason not to EP, 2) what might be the single most biased situation in favor of a unit you can put them in which is still a dubious situation at best, 3) you not having been capable of producing a single one argument, much less a convincing one, in favor of EP and worse even not been capable of identifying situations throughout CQ´s 28 chapter long base campaign in which EP would actually be more preferable and the fact that differences in playstyle has been completely absent from any of your remarks unless it´s to push what´s your opinion as a "basic assumption" as you call it ... yeah is bad.

Regardless; I think I´ll excuse myself from this topic now, if you would. The amount of time it takes to gather the enemy types, stats, skills, equipment, doing the math to put your statements into the appropriate broader context isn´t worth it, I realize now.

Average Effie's at 15/7 has got: HP 33.25 | Str 27.00 | Mag 0.00 | Skl 16.20 | Spd 16.25 | Lck 18.70 | Def 22.25 | Res 9.50

(Steel Shurikens speed debuffs doesn't decrease avoid, but they do innately lower avoid by 5.)  

That gives Effie 113 base Hit with Javelin, or 73 base Hit against Master Ninjas. That is low, but you can boost that to acceptable levels. Adding on Skill and Luk tonics boost that to 78 Hit. You can also bring Benny (Though Gunther and Xander also work) along for this chapter to block choke points since Ninjas won't attack him and instead focus on Effie, raising her hit to effectively 90 while next to him for +2.5 hit adjacency bonus. Add on 2 more adjacency supports and you can hit 95 hit, while inspiring song can bring that up to 99. So you can make the hit rates can be as good as you want them to be. 

The Terrain on this map is very beneficial for Effie because there's a lot of points where you can force ninjas to attack exclusively at two range through using either the dragon vein or a High Defense units. So you can filter out the regular enemies from the Ninja and get rid of the hardest enemies on the map pretty consistently on enemy phase.

There is no chance of a Kaze dying in Chapter 20. A 15/11 Master Ninja Kaze would be able to tank every hit even if they did land. He averages: HP 32.60 | Str 18.20 | Mag 0.00 | Skl 24.40 | Spd 32.60 | Lck 10.20 | Def 12.00 | Res 26.50

Kaze is facing off against 165 (with 13 extra damage from Luna) raw magic damage from 5 mages and 93 Physical Damage from 3 falcos. With a Wyvern Pair up, defense tonic, Cooking, and terrain, he has effectively 19 Def and 29 Res. 165 - 29*5 = 20 magic Damage while 93 - 19*3 = 36 Damage.

Keep in mind he's blocking every other attack with the shield gauge, so half of that damage just goes right out the window on top of the really crappy hit rates. Here's a practical demonstration of this. You could even boost his survivablity with Rallies and face no chance of death even with Luna.

I would ask you how you expect to kill Hayoto on turn 1 with Attack Stance, but you made your intention not to continue clear, so I'll stop here.

I will say though, this has been a fun discussion. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[rdrouyn]

I'd second Beruka as a good candidate for becoming a General. She has the right type of stats for it. If Wyvern Lord wasn't so broken then it would be her best class. Keaton doesn't really benefit that much from being a general, he is tanky enough and he loses Beast Killer when he isn't in a Beast class.

[Alastor15243]

On 11/5/2022 at 2:12 PM, Shadow Mir said:

I hard disagree. Being a generic comes with no perks, only disadvantages.

They come with maxed out weapon ranks on Lunatic and can come with skill and class combinations useful for pure utility that are difficult if not impossible to get on a named unit.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

They come with maxed out weapon ranks on Lunatic and can come with skill and class combinations useful for pure utility that are difficult if not impossible to get on a named unit.

I'd have expected you to chime in much sooner... anyway, maxed weapon ranks is something that's mostly academic in Fates, with the fact that anything above C rank probably has severe downsides to the point where I'm better off sticking with lower rank stuff. Aside from that, capture is only usable by two units in the whole cast, both of whom I find to be lackluster (I know that some people think Niles is good, but I have yet to see it myself, largely because he's a speed specialist with little else going for him, and speed alone does not a good unit make). That's already a bad sign. Then I need a prison set up, which is useless if I'm not using them, which is likely - to say nothing of how other facilities have more concrete benefits at that early point in the game. Even if I capture a unit, the problems don't end there, as they either need time to be won over (which means either real time waiting or playing maps to move the time along) or resources to be bribed, which means having to waste time visiting online castles. AND even then, I have to justify kicking out someone else for them. This stinks of jumping through a lot of hoops for little reward.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Alastor15243]

32 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Then I need a prison set up, which is useless if I'm not using them

It gives a crit boost in invasions, though I question why I even mention this, because it's a completely asinine boost I cannot for the life of me understand.

Why is it that the gambling place is indestructible, and the prison boosts crit? I ask you!