Jump to content

What would make you play Laguz units?


Recommended Posts

Hi,

Without changing the mechanics of the game, what would make you play Laguz units? Having similar or 3/4th of their stats in human form (like in halfshift)? What kind of base stats would you like for them? What stat caps would be satisfying? What kind of growths would you expect from them?

In PoR they used to be more popular than in RD despite falling off hard (mostly due to the absence of promo bonuses and their lower exp gain, because honestly their stat caps should be high enough to make up for their low Mt weapons, their caps are around the same as in RD in a game with Beorc caps at 20-30), mostly due to halfshift being a tradable item rather than a rare skill and having barely any negative effect compared with halfshift (the stat loss is barely a stat booster, even less for some stats of some Laguz classes) and Lethe starting each map with a full gauge (if only Laguz stones had a once per map unlimited use, you transform any Laguz you want but you can't use it again before the next map and the item would be unbreakable, but the gauge would still exist).

So what would you make the Laguz like without altering the mechanics for them to be viable?

Like, Volug could use a little more str/def for sure, Lethe could use an energy drop, a speedwings and a dragonshield, Mordecai could use one or two speedwings, Muharim is near-perfect, Skrimir could use a speedwings, Lyre could use a seraph robe and two stat boosters of each and the tiger with wolf growths could use a little more strength and def and be fast enough to double most of part 3 at base, making him the speedy tiger.

Human forms should obviously not be this bad, like Mordecai going from taking 0 damage in p2 and most of p3 to being doubled for 10-15 damage per hit in human form, so would you give them halfshift stats in human form or raise their overall stats so that in human form they're not going down in 2-3 rounds and in animal form they're as OP for their part as the royal Laguz for endgame? Would you just make every Laguz as relatively strong as Muharim in p1 or Ranulf in p3, or Ulki and Janaff for the end of p3, p4 and endgame (Janaff one rounding most common enemies for the rest of the game at base)? Would you make them as OP as the royals but without formshift (since it's impossible to give it to them) since Nailah is technically available with her endgame stats as soon as p1 and the non-royal Laguz units can only use halfshift to stay transformed, which automatically makes them weaker than royals?

Please tell me what stats you would like the Laguz to have in each form to make them viable and not dead weight (Lyre, untransformed Lethe, Vika, poor Laguz girls picked the short end of the stick and Mordecai could really use more speed in any form for sure, and of course the dragons could use better overall stats, especially the playable ones who are only there for 5 maps of endgame and don't have formshift until Deghinsea's death unlocks his son's formshift).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'd think some extreme measures would need to be taken to make laguz usable. Like a complete overhaul on how they work, really, otherwise, they'll always be at a big disadvantage. It's really telling how the few non-royals that are usable without wasting a shitload of time grinding them up are those that start good (and Giffca, who is pretty much a royal anyway). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/5/2022 at 7:06 AM, mangasdeouf said:

In PoR they used to be more popular than in RD despite falling off hard

That's not my experience at all. Even if you discount the royal laguz entirely, along with the dragons' support abilities, I've seen plenty of people talk about using Volug, Janaff, Ulki, and Giffca in RD, as well as Skrimir and Ranulf although to be fair they're psuedoforced. The only non-heron laguz who got used much in PoR are Mordecai and Lethe, and that's only because they're essentially prepromos; they usually get dropped in my experience (and tbh I think Mordecai is probably used about as much in RD anyway; Lethe is the only one who feels nerfed). Even setting aside how they end up with some of the lowest power stats in the game as a rule (thanks, 8 might weapons, I hate you), not having canto and not having 1-2 range is just a death sentence in PoR. RD enemy stats are much higher, so there's actually a niche for the better laguz units in RD despite their own lack of 1-2 range.

Having said that, I do think laguz in both games need a serious overhaul. In RD, since this is the topic of conversation, "double all stats" is far too swingy. Just something like +10 to Atk and +5 to other stats stats would be good enough, when coupled with them losing the ability to attack. (You'd also have to overhaul how their growths work, of course.) I also dislike how laguz all start at 0 gauge, except when the plot magically lets them not. You're telling me laguz just show up to a battle not ready to fight? On simple fix would be to have them start at 15 gauge, with the option to transform as long as their gauge is above some minimum thereshold (e.g. 5), giving the player a choice as to what turns they build gauge (by untransforming) and what turns they burn it.

The laguz with bad stats (Muarim/Vika upon their return, Lyre; Nealuchi and Lethe to a lesser extent) all need straight-up buffs, too. Laguz are weaker than equal-statted beorc both due to the transformation mechanic and the lack of ranged weaponry, so they need good stats to balance this. Lyre can be an Est-type character with bad bases but she needs very high growths and a better exp gain rate than she currently has to pull that off.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 11/5/2022 at 10:06 AM, mangasdeouf said:

Without changing the mechanics of the game, what would make you play Laguz units? Having similar or 3/4th of their stats in human form (like in halfshift)? What kind of base stats would you like for them? What stat caps would be satisfying? What kind of growths would you expect from them?

I would say...

- Let them keep their "transformed" Speed stat in "human" form. Having terrible bulk and essentially no combat is bad enough, but getting doubled just adds insult to injury. Likewise, their Speed growth rate is doubled.

- Nearly-useless skills, like Shriek and Howl, now have the added effect of letting the equipping Laguz start each map with a full gauge.

- Reduce everyone's level by 10, and calculate EXP gains on that basis. I.e Volug starts at level 5, instead of 15. Base stats are unchanged. If they would "go negative", i.e. Leanne, then they start at level 1. Satori Signs can now be used at level 20, and 30 is the new maximum.

- Let Muarim and Vika (Tormod too) gain some levels before they return in Part IV. They've been traveling across the continent, and they should have some gains to show for it. I'd give Vika 10 levels, Tormod 8, and Muarim 6.

- Kyza and Ranulf have a two-way Bond support. New "one way" supports are Tormod -> Vika and Gareth -> Kurthnaga.

- Lyre has her HP (0.50 -> 1.00), Strength (0.35 -> 0.70), and Defense (0.20 -> 0.40) growths doubled. Coupled with her Speed growth increase (0.70 -> 1.40), her average level-up increases from 3.30 -> 5.05. She's still a bad unit, but now at least there's some reward to using her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/14/2022 at 1:54 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

- Nearly-useless skills, like Shriek and Howl, now have the added effect of letting the equipping Laguz start each map with a full gauge.

 

I disagree here. Starting each map with a full guage should be the default for Laguz, regardless of skills. It just doesn't make sense that, when preparing for all these battles, the Laguz just plain aren't ready to actually go fight until turn 3 or 4. And this alone would make probably the largest difference to them as units worth units. If they could transform each map with certainty, then they basically become blitzkrieg units. Units that are super useful on the first two or three turns of a chapter, but then fall off hard until you're finishing up. Encouraging a speedy play style and clearing maps quick enough for that extra BEXP.

Of course, I'd like more skills to play with their gauge mechanic too. Like, a skill that means they start off with an empty guage, but once they do transform they stay transformed for longer. If I remember correctly, Path of Radiance staggered Lethe and Mordecai's transformation guages so, usually, one was transformed while the other wasn't. That was pretty cool, only you had no actual control over it (and auto transforming in Path of Radiance didn't exactly help). A skill so you can use Olivi Grass without consuming the unit's turn would also be really useful. Though the likes of Shriek and Howl would need buffs to make them worth equipping compared to utility skills, and the buff for them is obvious, don't make them proc skills, laguz cannot attack at 1-2 range, but use skills as a way to esoterically counter raged attacks. That's clearly the idea, but making them proc skills make them next to useless, as, unless you're playing either really badly, or bizarrely good, you shouldn't be letting your 1 range units get picked of with ranged attacks.

Ultimately the transformation guage is what makes Laguz Laguz, and it needs to work with the player, not against them. And outside of 4-1, it just doesn't make any sense that these characters are starting a battle without being ready to actually fight. It's like every laguz in Tellius is Vaike, begnning a chapter and just completely forgetting their weapon.

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

If I remember correctly, Path of Radiance staggered Lethe and Mordecai's transformation guages so, usually, one was transformed while the other wasn't.

Yep - Lethe started with a full gauge, while Mordecai began with a low gauge. First few turns Mordecai was still Smitebot/10.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I disagree here. Starting each map with a full guage should be the default for Laguz, regardless of skills. It just doesn't make sense that, when preparing for all these battles, the Laguz just plain aren't ready to actually go fight until turn 3 or 4. And this alone would make probably the largest difference to them as units worth units. If they could transform each map with certainty, then they basically become blitzkrieg units. Units that are super useful on the first two or three turns of a chapter, but then fall off hard until you're finishing up. Encouraging a speedy play style and clearing maps quick enough for that extra BEXP.

Yeah, this would make narrative sense and make them much better in gameplay. Don't all the Green Unit Beasts on Chapter 3-P start with a full gauge? Weird how the generics managed to get it right, but our playable Laguz don't. Still, I do wonder if "start the map with a full gauge for free" would be too powerful a buff. Wildheart already costs skill points, and it's basically "transform right away for free, with no need to use Olivi Grass, but with lower stats." That's why I proposed limiting access to it to certain skills.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Of course, I'd like more skills to play with their gauge mechanic too. Like, a skill that means they start off with an empty guage, but once they do transform they stay transformed for longer.

...This would just leave them worse-off than "full gauge at the start". A beastform Laguz can use Olivi Grass to stay in beastform, but when a humanform Laguz uses the same item, they stay humanform. And while Olivi Grass is decently rare and expensive, there's still enough of it that you're unlikely to run out before the Tower, especially assuming you pick up the ones that show up as "hidden items".

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

A skill so you can use Olivi Grass without consuming the unit's turn would also be really useful.

Or, what about an "Imbue"-type skill that raises a unit's gauge by its Magic stat, at the start of every turn? So, a bases Lyre with this skill would gain 6 (when untransformed) or 12 (when transformed) gauge per turn. Could really help to offset the terrible Cat gauge.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Though the likes of Shriek and Howl would need buffs to make them worth equipping compared to utility skills, and the buff for them is obvious, don't make them proc skills, laguz cannot attack at 1-2 range, but use skills as a way to esoterically counter raged attacks. That's clearly the idea, but making them proc skills make them next to useless, as, unless you're playing either really badly, or bizarrely good, you shouldn't be letting your 1 range units get picked of with ranged attacks.

That would make them better, to be sure. Is "Shriek that always activates" actually worth the skill gauge points? Probably not, but I suppose if you have nothing better at the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yep - Lethe started with a full gauge, while Mordecai began with a low gauge. First few turns Mordecai was still Smitebot/10.

Yeah, this would make narrative sense and make them much better in gameplay. Don't all the Green Unit Beasts on Chapter 3-P start with a full gauge? Weird how the generics managed to get it right, but our playable Laguz don't. Still, I do wonder if "start the map with a full gauge for free" would be too powerful a buff. Wildheart already costs skill points, and it's basically "transform right away for free, with no need to use Olivi Grass, but with lower stats." That's why I proposed limiting access to it to certain skills.

If Laguz still have exp curve going against them and a lack if 1-2 range then I don't think a full gauge at the start of battle would make them instant broken. Formshift isn't and gems isn't the thing that makes the laguz royals broken, they certainly help, but it's their super high stats that seal the deal. Even with a full guage laguz will face a lot of problems, but that ine simple woukd help them considerably. 

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...This would just leave them worse-off than "full gauge at the start". A beastform Laguz can use Olivi Grass to stay in beastform, but when a humanform Laguz uses the same item, they stay humanform. And while Olivi Grass is decently rare and expensive, there's still enough of it that you're unlikely to run out before the Tower, especially assuming you pick up the ones that show up as "hidden items".

What about they simply don't revert at all one they transform, but they start enoty and it takes them twice as long to transform. So you'd be gobbling your olivi grass in your first few turns for the sake of longevity later in the battle.

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Or, what about an "Imbue"-type skill that raises a unit's gauge by its Magic stat, at the start of every turn? So, a bases Lyre with this skill would gain 6 (when untransformed) or 12 (when transformed) gauge per turn. Could really help to offset the terrible Cat gauge.

I don't like that it could be variable depending on wether or not your transformed. Something lije that I'd rather be reliably static. Doubling ut when transformed also would just have a knock on effect maintaining a transformation guage being more effective, which coupled with a full guage at the start of battle basically eliminated the transformation guage in a practical sense. Magic as a stat also just has no reason to double for laguz as they simply never use it (unless Naesala has his vortext in this game? But I don't think he does. And yeah, yeah cards exist, but you're never actually using them as a laguz unless you're having fun getting around heron pacificsm).

7 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That would make them better, to be sure. Is "Shriek that always activates" actually worth the skill gauge points? Probably not, but I suppose if you have nothing better at the time.

Only so many skills to go around if laguz are good enough that you're fielding a few of them. Man, I don't thibg I even eqyio laguz skills on the royals even though they probably have the capacity to spare XD

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

If Laguz still have exp curve going against them

TBH that's why one of my proposals was

On 12/13/2022 at 11:54 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Reduce everyone's level by 10, and calculate EXP gains on that basis.

It's weird how you get basically no Laguz with a level in the single digits. Anyway, this would make their EXP gains not suck so badly.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Magic as a stat also just has no reason to double for laguz as they simply never use it

White Dragons are the only ones using their Magic stat for combat. It still matters for Herons, for the Blessing skill.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't like that it could be variable depending on wether or not your transformed.

Maybe it could be based on the unit's untransformed Magic stat? Or just give them, say, a flat 5 gauge per turn? At the end of the day, it's a skill that would help ordinary Laguz, while being useless to the Royals. It would aid unit balance.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

What about they simply don't revert at all one they transform, but they start enoty and it takes them twice as long to transform. So you'd be gobbling your olivi grass in your first few turns for the sake of longevity later in the battle.

That could have its uses. It would basically make a Laguz Stone as effective as a Laguz Gem. Still, if everyone else gets a full gauge from the start, then not having that is a considerable cost of entry.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Formshift isn't and gems isn't the thing that makes the laguz royals broken, they certainly help, but it's their super high stats that seal the deal.

I would argue that they only have those super-high stats because of Formshift. If Tibarn didn't have Formshift, he could still use Wildheart to stay shifted all the time. But it would leave him with worse stats - still good, but not as absurdly OP.

In any case, they still have insane skill capacity and sky-high weapon might to their names. So there's a lot of advantages happening. 

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Only so many skills to go around if laguz are good enough that you're fielding a few of them. Man, I don't thibg I even eqyio laguz skills on the royals even though they probably have the capacity to spare XD

Pretty sure Tibarn and Nailah can quite easily run out of room for skills well before they hit "skill capacity". They can only have up to 6 skills, lest they start going off the page. And Tibarn starts with all 6 filled (Savior, Pavise, Formshift, Shove, Canto, Tear), but the first three are "free", so he has plenty of capacity left over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
  • 1 month later...

Pretty simple giving them more battle experience. It's heartbreaking to see when they gain one experience point in a combat. Only tanky units like Mordecai can gain a bit more experience for fighting untransformed, but even this is by far not enough. 

Having higher stats for being untransformed would be helpful for fighting untransformed, at least they can counterattack unlike in Path Of Radiance...which is somewhat nice at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
On 4/22/2023 at 1:57 PM, Lady Hortensia said:

Pretty simple giving them more battle experience. It's heartbreaking to see when they gain one experience point in a combat. Only tanky units like Mordecai can gain a bit more experience for fighting untransformed, but even this is by far not enough. 

Having higher stats for being untransformed would be helpful for fighting untransformed, at least they can counterattack unlike in Path Of Radiance...which is somewhat nice at least.

The EXP rate is a problem, and so is untransformed states being pitifully weak. 
honestly transforming should boost stats by 50% of stats, and we balance from there.

which is what my RD hack is trying to emulate...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...