Long term gripe with the characterisation of the Sacred Stones Protagonists

[Wanderer11037]

I've got Fe8 on the brain now and something that always bothered me was how we start the game with Eirika but Ephraim's introduction and presence in the story from that point onwards just COMPLETELY invalidates her. Old point I appreciate but Sacred Stones was my first FE and I just remember finding it laughable how inconsequential her contribution to the story was. Even when I think back to the plot having not revisited the game for quite some time, I remember her list of achievements being:

• Going to Renvall to rescue her brother (who's "trapped" behind enemy lines in theory) but ends up needing saving herself
•  First response 101: don't create another casualty for people to worry about!
  • And Ephraim was going full Hannibal on Grado anyway, waging a pretty darn effective guerilla campaign with his merry band of men, so disrputing that's arguably on her too
• Hiking through the mountains, getting wrapped up in a civil war in a neutral nation that doesn't play a role in the wider conflict at all, rescuing Innes (who was fairly useless himself for someone in-lore meant to be an intelligent man, also this happens in both routes regardless) and failing in her main objective to secure Jehanna's stone
• . In other words she doesn't really achieve anything in her route.
  • Admittedly a lot of this wasn't really on her but in that same timeframe Ephraim has conquered Grado off-screen, as you do I suppose, and found the time to make cross continent trek to her to break them out of that pincer attack between Caellach and Valter/siege of Jehanna Hall
• Handing over the stone to who "Lyon". While about as naive a choice you could make, I think it's fair to chalk that up to her trusting nature and her history with Lyon (that and it's more of a personal blunder rather than anythign strategic). Although Ephraim had to have the stone taken from him by force by comparsion, showing that even in the face of his former close friend, he put his duties as a leader before personal feelings.

I actually really like the contrast in character between the 2 Lords, I just wish more was done with it. Yes Ephraim in-universe is just a bit too OP and some of the feats he accomplishes are ridiculous but even that could've been fine if we got that from him and Eirika's story was more of a coming of age story : Starting off naive and out of her depth but maturing as the story progresses and rising to become her brother's equal.

Let's face it as they are now, Mr "I don't pick fights I can't win" is a static character but even that could work with some slight reframing of the story. Eirika was clearly intended to be the empath of the two (getting some major Alm/Celica dichotomy vibes here and like those two the former is presented by the story as being "correct" over the latter kinda defeating the point of their diverging view-points) so that should stay. Just have her become a little more capable and less in need of saving as the chapters go on. And arguably most importantly, if the early part of the story is kept intact, she NEEDS to have to come to Ephraim's rescue or something along those lines later on.

That or she contributes to the wider campaign in some way that her brother couldn't. (Maybe she's able to pacify a brewing rebellion in the now-defeated Grado before they go after the Demon King through her inherent compassion, saving the Allied forces the trouble of dealing with the Grado Remnants).

While not perfect at least in a narrative like that, her accomplishments would actually show that her world-view and methods are a credible alternative to Ephraim's brute force approach to all of his problems. 

Static characters work best when they encompass some kind of "Truth" which they have others acknowledge throughout the story (Goku and his insistence on showing mercy to each and everyone of his enemies being a good example of this). Ephraim definitely fits that more than his sister so having her turn the tables later on would've been sooo much more satisfying to see than the absolute Eirika dunk-fest the story actually was.

(Spoiler tagging because I don't know what the policy on spoliers for an 18 year old game is)

TLDR - Ephraim makes Eirika redundant by being crazily OP and that really grinds my gears.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Wanderer11037
removing redundant spoiler tags

[Aircalipoor]

Ephraim could only conquer Grado because the nation spread its troops to deal with Frelia/Rausten/Jehanna at the other side of the front. Eirika was a necessary distraction at the other side of the front.

Sure, Eirika didn't got the glory, but her contributions were necessary.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Aircalipoor

[jumpuff]

FE8 is... it's 18 years old now?!

The points you make are interesting. The main campaign is unclear on what Eirika actually knows about combat; she's never been in a real fight, but knows how to use a sword properly; she makes the decisions on what her army should do next, despite Seth guiding her on literally everything else.

Becoming trapped in Renvall and her decision to give Lyon the stone both work in showing what kind of person she is, I think. The renvall incident shows her inexperience at the start of the game, and her decision to trust lyon... it shows how much she believes in other people, and values that above things like duty.

It would have been nice if she had wins more significant than freeing a village of bandits, I totally agree. She's one of my favourite FE characters. Maybe she could have successfully gotten Jehanna's stone and handed it over to Lyon at the end, along with Rausten's. (I think that wouldn't break the original plot too much...)

[Wanderer11037]

On 11/13/2022 at 10:05 AM, Aircalipoor said:

Ephraim could only conquer Grado because the nation spread its troops to deal with Frelia/Rausten/Jehanna at the other side of the front. Eirika was a necessary distraction at the other side of the front.

Sure, Eirika didn't got the glory, but her contributions were necessary.

 

 

While I do see where you're coming from, I don't think that that assessment is completely fair. Sure the Grado troops were definitely over-extended with the occupation in Renais; fighting Ephraim directly on his push South and in attacking Jehanna but they weren't as spread out as you imply IIRC. En route to Jehanna, Eirika is primarily fighting mercs, monsters, Pablo's forces and then Grado. (On the topic of monsters I'm pretty sure Riev is the one who conjures the ghost ship Ephraim has to deal with so that's more attention being diverted away from Eirika).

Yes she does encounter Grado troops, but those are only there assisting the Carcin(an?) troops under Pablo. As for Rausten, I thought Rasuten castle was only ever attacked by Riev and the Grado Remnants after the Lords reunite/Ephraim conquered Grado keep? Any other details about Rausten being attacked before that are left ambiguous. Also the assault on Frelia had already failed by the time the route split begins so Grado were arguably conducting a fighting retreat the whole time Ephraim was chasing them to the capital.

Again I might be misremembering things but either way, in terms of the "War of the Stones" itself, she doesn't really play that much of a role. She's not even being much of a distraction as outside of Valter, Glen and Cormag, Grado aren't exactly hunting her, rather they're just attacking the places she happens to be (interfering in the rebellion in Carcino to install a friendly council and in Jehanna to destroy the stone etc)

I think it's interesting to look at the Grado 6 as they're supposed to be the pre-eminent generals of their military and who ends up dealing with them:

• Valter & Caellach - Tie here as they're taken out in the reunion chapter (although as mentioned earlier I feel like with the siege setting and everything it's clear which Renais Royal is pulling more weight there)
• Selena - No arguments here, Ephraim deals with her
• Duessel - N/A as he defects
• Riev - Another tie as he's fought post-reunion
• Glen - N/A as he got Valter'd (but in fairness to Eirika he was assigned to deal with her, diverting attention away from Ephraim)

All in all I still think it's fair to say that Eirika gets relatively little spotlight in the overall story when compared to her brother (in terms of sheer strategic importance/military feats at least). Yes she had a somewhat eventful route, but that doesn't take-away how detached she was from the wider conflict. (Ngl it's actually been pretty fun revisiting all this stuff. For a guy who's been ragging on this story, it clearly left more of an impact with me than I realised so credit where it's due I supppose XD)

Edited November 17, 2022 by Wanderer11037

[Wanderer11037]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:27 PM, jumpuff said:

FE8 is... it's 18 years old now?!

The points you make are interesting. The main campaign is unclear on what Eirika actually knows about combat; she's never been in a real fight, but knows how to use a sword properly; she makes the decisions on what her army should do next, despite Seth guiding her on literally everything else.

Becoming trapped in Renvall and her decision to give Lyon the stone both work in showing what kind of person she is, I think. The renvall incident shows her inexperience at the start of the game, and her decision to trust lyon... it shows how much she believes in other people, and values that above things like duty.

It would have been nice if she had wins more significant than freeing a village of bandits, I totally agree. She's one of my favourite FE characters. Maybe she could have successfully gotten Jehanna's stone and handed it over to Lyon at the end, along with Rausten's. (I think that wouldn't break the original plot too much...)

Ikr time really does fly huh?

You're absolutely right in pointing out the Renvall and stone debacle as prime examples of her lack of political and strategic acumen. That's why it would've been nice to see her get more involved in Carcino's power-struggle. I can't quite remember exactly what went down but I don't recall her doing any major politicking with Klimt and the rest of the counci. I mean if you're a foreign noble who happens to be marching with your army through a minor neighbour that's busy tearing itself apart, you'd probably be making some demands before getting involved in the conflict. Why not offer Klimt your support in exchange for Carcino joining the war in support of Renais? You could argue that doing something that cunning is OOC for her but then why not have her secure a deal of food and material support in addition to a guarantee of neutrality one Pablo has been sorted out? Again this was a great oppurtunity to have Eirika show some initiative and as this is all going down about half-way through the game, would be a good indicator of her growing as a character.

I like your idea of Eirika actually being able to make a sizable difference in Jehanna. On the military front, if she and her army (well militia but hey Seth is there and he alone makes the difference XD) were actually able to save Ismaire, recover the stone and stop Jehanna Hall from being burnt to the ground she'd have at least one major accomplishment to her name. It would also make her route feel so much less inconsequential. That way she'd be bringing 2 new allies to the war effort (Carcino in our new scenario as well as a non-destroyed Jehanna) and you could simply re-frame the reunion chapter as the twins regaining the initiative and taking out Caellach/Valter (pincering the pincer if you like, Eirika from Jehanna hall and Ephraim from the South with the Frelian army) 

Sure by that point the war is nominally won anyway with Ephraim's rampage through Grado, but at least this way Eirika has routed Grado in the North of the continent without even setting out to do so. It actually works out quite nicely because her making it to the desert in one piece would likely catch the Grado forces laying siege to JH off-guard and be the perfect excuse for her to relieve the siege. Even with the stone recovered it can easily fall into "Lyon's" hands as you've described so the wider plot would definitely be largely intact.  

Eirika definitely isn't as useless as some other unnamed Fe protags *cough Lyn* but I guess that's the reason I find her characterisation so grating. She reminds me a lot of Micaiah from RD personality-wise but I feel that of the two Micaiah is far more interesting of a character. While she's not perfect by any means she's pretty unique as far as Fe Lords go: You've got a well-intentioned optimistic young leader who successfully wins back her country's sovereignty (in paper unbeknownst to her at the time) and is later forced to enter a war she has no business being apart of. We then get to watch as she has to do increasingly terrible things in the name of her Daein until things eventually reach a breaking point. Now I'm not asking for that level of complexity or moral grey, just that my kind-hearted characters can be a little more capable in-lore! Eirkia's got the potential in the narrative to be impactful, the game just doesn't quite get her there in my humble opinion.

[Aircalipoor]

Quote

Sure the Grado troops were definitely over-extended with the occupation in Renais; fighting Ephraim directly on his push South and in attacking Jehanna but they weren't as spread out as you imply IIRC.

 

You overlook how the events in both routes influence each other.

 

In chapter 10, Valter would've beaten/weakened Ephraim, but retreated to deal with Eirika in Carcino:

Quote

“Heh heh… Stupid woman. If Grado wins too easily, there’ll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun… I believe it’s time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn’t do for Glen to arrive before me, would it?

If Eirika wasn't around, then Valters and Glen troops would be available to confront Ephraim. Add this with Duessel, Selena and later Caellach, and Ephraim wouldn't get as far as he would.

 

In Chapter 13, Caellach would've beaten/weakened Ephraims troops but retreated to deal with Eirika in Jehanna:

Quote

Riev:
“Heh heh heh… Oh, how your plans seem to have gone awry. Even now, Eirika makes her way toward Jehanna. Your perfect fruit has turned to rot while you did nothing. It’s time. You will return to the capital with me.”

Caellach:
“What?! Are you truly serious, you old goat? Glen… No, it’s that black-hearted Valter… What’s he playing at now?”

If Grado didn't had to deal with Jehanna, it would had Caellach and his troops to confront Ephraim. You are ignoring the units that Caellach sacrifieced to deal with Eirika and Rausten, you are ignoring the treacherous troops in Jehanna that joined Grado. You ignore Pablos squad. All of them were defeated by Eirikas troops.

Ephraim wouldn't conquer Grado if he would face Vigarde, Lyon, Valter, Caellach and Riev at once. Grado didn't fail because Ephraim is that greater than Eirika, but because it spread outs its troops on purpose, since the leaders Demon King/Lyon/Riev/controlled Vigarde only care about getting the stones (and Valter sabotages his own army for funsies). For that they invade in the other nations as far as necessary, but retreat as soon as they got the stones and set themself up to lose in the long term  (fully awakened Demon King doesn't care if Grado is still winning or not).

Edited November 18, 2022 by Aircalipoor

[Wanderer11037]

4 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

 

You overlook how the events in both routes influence each other.

 

In chapter 10, Valter would've beaten/weakened Ephraim, but retreated to deal with Eirika in Carcino:

If Eirika wasn't around, then Valters and Glen troops would be available to confront Ephraim. Add this with Duessel, Selena and later Caellach, and Ephraim wouldn't get as far as he would.

 

In Chapter 13, Caellach would've beaten/weakened Ephraims troops but retreated to deal with Eirika in Jehanna:

If Grado didn't had to deal with Jehanna, it would had Caellach and his troops to confront Ephraim. You are ignoring the units that Caellach sacrifieced to deal with Eirika and Rausten, you are ignoring the treacherous troops in Jehanna that joined Grado. You ignore Pablos squad. All of them were defeated by Eirikas troops.

Ephraim wouldn't conquer Grado if he would face Vigarde, Lyon, Valter, Caellach and Riev at once. Grado didn't fail because Ephraim is that greater than Eirika, but because it spread outs its troops on purpose, since the leaders Demon King/Lyon/Riev/controlled Vigarde only care about getting the stones (and Valter sabotages his own army for funsies). For that they invade in the other nations as far as necessary, but retreat as soon as they got the stones and set themself up to lose in the long term  (fully awakened Demon King doesn't care if Grado is still winning or not).

Okay Grado's strategic blunders/nonsensical approach to the war definitely contributed more to their own downfall than Ephraim's counter-invasion I'll give you that. And yes Eirika being present in any form did take a lot of the heat away from Ephraim in terms of Grado general attention and the forces she tied up in the North of the continent. So she does play some role admittedly. I think my original point still stands however of her being too passive/reactive of a character. I know that the whole reason the route split happens in the first place is because she insists on aiding Jehanna/warning Rausten herself, I just wish she had a more interesting role in the plot.

Imagine if we were to take the perspective of a Magvelian history chronicler documenting War of the Stones. I think it's pretty safe to say that any in-universe historical treatise or text would give faaar more spotlight to the Grado invasion than Eirika's skirmishes in Carcino and battles against North which would be a footnote by comparison. I think I'm a little spoiled by later games like Radiant Dawn, where we had multiple armies/factions all over Tellius with their own objectives and contributions to the wider conflict. To be fair to FE8, RD's plot was far greater in scope so I imagine it was probably easier to pull off the things I've been describing.

[jumpuff]

@Wanderer11037re Carcino: Eirika chooses to stop and listen to Klimt when Innes jumped to accusing him of being behind the plot to trap him, and she successfully prevents Pablo from taking over the country (which would ally it with Grado) as well as rescuing Innes. I feel like it's a good moment for her.

[Wanderer11037]

6 hours ago, jumpuff said:

@Wanderer11037re Carcino: Eirika chooses to stop and listen to Klimt when Innes jumped to accusing him of being behind the plot to trap him, and she successfully prevents Pablo from taking over the country (which would ally it with Grado) as well as rescuing Innes. I feel like it's a good moment for her.

Ah my bad there I completely forgot that's what went down. Glad to see her getting to do some of that aforementioned politicking then. And actually it does sound really in character for her and (Innes XD) to react that way. Ephraim and Innes actually have a lot more in common than either would probably be willing to admit huh?