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Jotari

Should Nyna have been playable in Shadow Dragon?

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Nyna was not playable in the original Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light released on the NES. The reason for this is obvious. She was a plot character and she needed to speak to Marth. And the series hadn't come up with the idea of playable characters actually being involved in the plot with permadeath. In the follow up game she was playable, very briefly, in the final battle. Which might not have scratched anyone's itch to play as Nyna, but did prove that she could use magic to heal and fight. Her first proper playable appearance was in Archanea Saga where you use her extensively for two episodes.

And then comes the Shadow Dragon remake where they decided to be faithful to the original almost to a fault. No scenes with Hardin or Minerva directing war councils. It's just Marth, Malledeus and Nyna. Well, that's okay, who wants to write a whole bunch of new plot...yet did that really stop Nyna from being playable? Why not have her take to the field as a playable character in the Shadow Dragon remake? It's not like she even has Guinevere's excuse of not wanting to fight her countrymen, and she clearly is capable of fighting, or at the very least healing.

But then again, maybe people like the idea of the soft hearted princess who can't fight for herself. Would you liked to have had Nyna as a playable character in Shadow Dragon on the DS? And, if so, at what point do you think she should have become playable, and how good should she be (and to maintain continuity with Archanea Saga she would need to be a Bishop from base...if you care about that. Coming to think of it, maybe she could have even got an exclusive class instead).

Edited by Jotari

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Would be neat but also I don't lose sleep over the fact she's not.

I would say after Chapter 12, after the liberation of Archanea. As a level 1 promoted unit, or level 1 custom class if needed.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Nyna was not playable in the original Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light released on the NES. The reason for this is obvious. She was a plot character and she needed to speak to Marth. And the series hadn't come up with the idea of playable characters actually being involved in the plot with permadeath.

Actually, the Epilogue of FE1 is evidence to the contrary. If Ceada is dead, Nyna comforts Marth over that loss, rather than saying 'fufufu you never understood that woman's heart. Go to her Mars". If Ceada and Playable Nyna were both dead, I guess they would skip the scene altogether if they decided there was no need to write a new one. And FE1's got plenty of potential to go off script anyway. I passed right by Gotoh who was ready to turn my stones into Starlight. Meaning that I never killed Gharnef, and had to fight the final boss without Falchion. That's like Link skipping the Master Sword and defeating Ganon without it despite the plot claiming only that sword will work.

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3 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Actually, the Epilogue of FE1 is evidence to the contrary. If Ceada is dead, Nyna comforts Marth over that loss, rather than saying 'fufufu you never understood that woman's heart. Go to her Mars". If Ceada and Playable Nyna were both dead, I guess they would skip the scene altogether if they decided there was no need to write a new one. And FE1's got plenty of potential to go off script anyway. I passed right by Gotoh who was ready to turn my stones into Starlight. Meaning that I never killed Gharnef, and had to fight the final boss without Falchion. That's like Link skipping the Master Sword and defeating Ganon without it despite the plot claiming only that sword will work.

Well yes, there's the multiple endings of course. But it's not like Shiida is involved with any other scenes after her recruitment. Most of her dialogue involves optionally recruiting other characters. What I meant was that the first game was a far cry from the likes of Radiant Dawn where playable characters retreat and continue to be involved in the plot even if you lose them as units. Shadow Dragon, being released after Radiant Dawn and the like didn't need to hold to this maxim. They could have had Nyna be a character who retreats, or make it so her death resulted in a game over. In other words, there were conceptual design reasons as to why Nyna wasn't playable in the first game, but those design reasons had long since been worked around by the time of the DS remake.

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Gameplay-wise, I would have really liked it, but story-wise I'm of two minds. We do know that Nyna is no stranger to violence, and she would certainly be willing to step into the frontlines if she thought it necessary. However, as the last member of the Archanean royal family she's both an important symbol and indispensable to the future of her kingdom. The same applies to Marth, but as the heir of Anri he'd be expected to fight even if he didn't want to. Nyna standing back and letting others fight in her stead has both political reasoning for keeping her out of harm's way and consistency with her character.  Her willingness to step back and follow in the lead of others works out well this time, but causes catastrophe in her future political marriage with Hardin (letting Boah pressure her into the marriage to begin with and not being honest with Hardin regarding not reciprocating his feelings). You could always just headcanon that she works in the rear lines healing the wounded and helping administer the army to explain why she doesn't fight without making her seem completely useless.

If Nyna was playable, I'd have her show up at the start of Chapter 12 so she can take part in the reclamation of her own home. Nice and symbolic. Class-wise I think Bishop is fine. She's not so special that a personal class makes sense. Her growths from Archanea Saga are fine as is (45/0/40/50/45/45/10/40), but she could definitely do with better bases for a Lvl 1 promoted unit (18/1/4/5/8/17/4/7), at least assuming we're trying to make her actually good unlike Boah.

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Honestly I'm kind of okay with her not being playable solely because it reinforces the setting of Archanea, which is rather archaic and sexist compared to modern FEs. Like, she takes on a husband and he becomes king of her country? As in ... he has more power as a ruler than her? Pffft. Likewise, Elice is Marth's older sister and yet he is the heir since he is the dude.

Nyna and Elice are a far cry from Elincia (who fights alongside Ike and outranks Geoffrey if they marry) and Emmeryn (who held the throne before Chrom due to being his older sister). I'm not necessarily opposed to exploring a world where princesses like Caeda and Minerva, who take on an active role in battle, are the rarity and princesses are more often than not expected to behave like Nyna and Elice.

Like, if I recall correctly I think Fates tried to pull off a "Hinoka and Sakura are unusual princesses because they take to the battlefield" thing in some support or conversation, but it comes off as super hollow when almost 1/2 of Fates' cast including Hoshido consists of powerful fighting women and no one really has an issue with them. Meanwhile, I can totally believe that Archanea (along with Valentia and Jugdral) are very much extremely shitty places to be a woman and a princess.

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5 hours ago, KMT4ever said:

Gameplay-wise, I would have really liked it, but story-wise I'm of two minds. We do know that Nyna is no stranger to violence, and she would certainly be willing to step into the frontlines if she thought it necessary. However, as the last member of the Archanean royal family she's both an important symbol and indispensable to the future of her kingdom. The same applies to Marth, but as the heir of Anri he'd be expected to fight even if he didn't want to. Nyna standing back and letting others fight in her stead has both political reasoning for keeping her out of harm's way and consistency with her character.  Her willingness to step back and follow in the lead of others works out well this time, but causes catastrophe in her future political marriage with Hardin (letting Boah pressure her into the marriage to begin with and not being honest with Hardin regarding not reciprocating his feelings). You could always just headcanon that she works in the rear lines healing the wounded and helping administer the army to explain why she doesn't fight without making her seem completely useless.

Thing is, Nyna is very much the exception to this. Archanea has a setting wherein the royalty are expected to take to the field. It's not just Marth. Hardin, Michalis, Minerva, Shiida, Jiol, Sheena and even Maria all take to the field. It is practical to keep your head of state safe behind enemy lines, but those are very much not the rules Archanea works under. The only monarch other than Nyna who doesn't fight for her people is Ludwik, who is considered pretty cowardly, and considering he dies a few years later, probably literally can't.

5 hours ago, KMT4ever said:

If Nyna was playable, I'd have her show up at the start of Chapter 12 so she can take part in the reclamation of her own home. Nice and symbolic. Class-wise I think Bishop is fine. She's not so special that a personal class makes sense. Her growths from Archanea Saga are fine as is (45/0/40/50/45/45/10/40), but she could definitely do with better bases for a Lvl 1 promoted unit (18/1/4/5/8/17/4/7), at least assuming we're trying to make her actually good unlike Boah.

I do struggle to think of how she could stand out in gameplay. Magic in Archanea is kind of boring what with only having one type and two classes. Most units trend the same way. I actually think I might prefer the first game's magic system to Shadow Dragon's XD

3 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Honestly I'm kind of okay with her not being playable solely because it reinforces the setting of Archanea, which is rather archaic and sexist compared to modern FEs. Like, she takes on a husband and he becomes king of her country? As in ... he has more power as a ruler than her? Pffft. Likewise, Elice is Marth's older sister and yet he is the heir since he is the dude.

Nyna and Elice are a far cry from Elincia (who fights alongside Ike and outranks Geoffrey if they marry) and Emmeryn (who held the throne before Chrom due to being his older sister). I'm not necessarily opposed to exploring a world where princesses like Caeda and Minerva, who take on an active role in battle, are the rarity and princesses are more often than not expected to behave like Nyna and Elice.

Like, if I recall correctly I think Fates tried to pull off a "Hinoka and Sakura are unusual princesses because they take to the battlefield" thing in some support or conversation, but it comes off as super hollow when almost 1/2 of Fates' cast including Hoshido consists of powerful fighting women and no one really has an issue with them. Meanwhile, I can totally believe that Archanea (along with Valentia and Jugdral) are very much extremely shitty places to be a woman and a princess.

Archanea is more sexist than modern Fire Emblem's, but not significantly so. It's not just Shiida and Minerva, Sheema gets her throne too and knows how to fight. The pegasus knights are also a pretty established all female fighting force. Nyna is the only princess in the game who doesn't fight, though Maira and Julia are probably just healers in canon.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Thing is, Nyna is very much the exception to this. Archanea has a setting wherein the royalty are expected to take to the field. It's not just Marth. Hardin, Michalis, Minerva, Shiida, Jiol, Sheena and even Maria all take to the field. It is practical to keep your head of state safe behind enemy lines, but those are very much not the rules Archanea works under. The only monarch other than Nyna who doesn't fight for her people is Ludwik, who is considered pretty cowardly, and considering he dies a few years later, probably literally can't.

So you're saying Nyna must fight for her right to not be forced into the battlefield? Then yeah, let's keep her an NPC.

5 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Honestly I'm kind of okay with her not being playable solely because it reinforces the setting of Archanea, which is rather archaic and sexist compared to modern FEs. Like, she takes on a husband and he becomes king of her country? As in ... he has more power as a ruler than her? Pffft. Likewise, Elice is Marth's older sister and yet he is the heir since he is the dude.

To be fair, I don't think we really get a concrete answer on if Hardin ruled alone or not. At least, pre-Darskphere Hardin. So it could be the case the King rules alone, or Nyna simply wanted to share rulership with him.

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20 hours ago, Jotari said:

Nyna was not playable in the original Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light released on the NES. The reason for this is obvious. She was a plot character and she needed to speak to Marth. And the series hadn't come up with the idea of playable characters actually being involved in the plot with permadeath. In the follow up game she was playable, very briefly, in the final battle. Which might not have scratched anyone's itch to play as Nyna, but did prove that she could use magic to heal and fight. Her first proper playable appearance was in Archanea Saga where you use her extensively for two episodes.

And then comes the Shadow Dragon remake where they decided to be faithful to the original almost to a fault. No scenes with Hardin or Minerva directing war councils. It's just Marth, Malledeus and Nyna. Well, that's okay, who wants to write a whole bunch of new plot...yet did that really stop Nyna from being playable? Why not have her take to the field as a playable character in the Shadow Dragon remake? It's not like she even has Guinivere's excuse of not wanting to fight her countrymen, and she clearly is capable of fighting, or at the very least healing.

But then again, maybe people like the idea of the soft hearted princess who can't fight for herself. Would you liked to have had Nyna as a playable character in Shadow Dragon on the DS? And, if so, at what point do you think she should have become playable, and how good should she be (and to maintain continuity with Archanea Saga she would need to be a Bishop from base...if you care about that. Coming to think of it, maybe she could have even got an exclusive class instead).

Umm... Nyna was first playable in Mystery of the Emblem for Book 2 and then playable again in BS Fire Emblem.

I definitely don't know about putting Nyna being playable in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light/Shadow Dragon since Nyna became one as the 4 kidnapped Bishops near the end of Mystery of the Emblem/New Mystery of the Emblem since she was like a major NPC in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light/Shadow Dragon and I think that would might take away the major focus in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light/Shadow Dragon if she was playable in Shadow Dragon and players have to wait till the end of Mystery of the Emblem/New Mystery of the Emblem like the other 3 Clerics had been kidnapped that were mostly absent in Mystery of the Emblem/New Mystery of the Emblem.

Nyna wasn't a second main protagonist in Mystery of the Emblem/New Mystery of the Emblem unlike Elincia in Path of Radiance was.

Edited by King Marth 64

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I'm okay with her not being playable, but I'd also have been happy to have her playable. She's a Top 5 Archanea character for me. The problem for me is figuring out where she'd best fit in. In my mind, she'd definitely be a pre-promoted unit, and a pretty decent one at that, so she's probably have to come late-ish. My mind keeps going to the Camus battle, I'm thinking right after Camus "dies" would be a good place for her to step in.

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16 hours ago, Jotari said:

Archanea is more sexist than modern Fire Emblem's, but not significantly so. It's not just Shiida and Minerva, Sheema gets her throne too and knows how to fight. The pegasus knights are also a pretty established all female fighting force. Nyna is the only princess in the game who doesn't fight, though Maira and Julia are probably just healers in canon.

Is it bad that I forgot Sheena existed

Honestly there's just something about the general vibe of Marth's games that makes me feel like it's more sexist than Tellius and after. I think it's because it was written during a different time, and a lot of those attitudes just ... are kind of present in the game whether intended or not.

I'm not going to go into too much detail since I have a lot to say about it and it'll derail the topic, but I don't think pegasus knights existing and Caeda, Minerva, and Sheena being very proactive princesses who kick ass mean that it's a normal thing for the world generally? Like, no one in-story really expects Elice to rule Altea or save the world with Falchion because Marth exists. And all the ladies who get kidnapped to be sacrificed to Medeus just happen to be three princesses (and one high-ranking lady) who are all promoted healer classes. And with the exception of Maria, who is too young, they can only be "awoken" by their lover. Don't get me started on Genealogy where Deirdre is the actual heir to the kingdom but Arvis is the actual emperor who holds power.

14 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, I don't think we really get a concrete answer on if Hardin ruled alone or not. At least, pre-Darskphere Hardin. So it could be the case the King rules alone, or Nyna simply wanted to share rulership with him.

Perhaps I shouldn't apply real-life logic to a video game world, but if Nyna was the "main" ruler Hardin should have a lower title than her. Like prince consort or something. If he is King or Emperor, then he's probably in charge and above Nyna. That is, if FE royal titles work similarly to how they do in the real world. But I think in some real life countries, a very long time ago, it wasn't unusual for the next ruler to be a princess's husband if no male heirs existed.

And there's even precedent for this in FE6! I recall hearing that King Desmond wanted the next king to be Guinevere's husband ... which likely implies that her husband would have more power than her. So, Nyna being subordinate to Hardin in her own damn country wouldn't surprise me.

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4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Perhaps I shouldn't apply real-life logic to a video game world, but if Nyna was the "main" ruler Hardin should have a lower title than her. Like prince consort or something. If he is King or Emperor, then he's probably in charge and above Nyna. That is, if FE royal titles work similarly to how they do in the real world. But I think in some real life countries, a very long time ago, it wasn't unusual for the next ruler to be a princess's husband if no male heirs existed.

And there's even precedent for this in FE6! I recall hearing that King Desmond wanted the next king to be Guinevere's husband ... which likely implies that her husband would have more power than her. So, Nyna being subordinate to Hardin in her own damn country wouldn't surprise me.

I mean, that's the point most likely. No consort add-on, just King and Queen.

Eh, Mystery came first, so Binding Blade isn't the one stablishing precedent. And... well, I think it's the same boat over there. Holder of the title, not so much an indication that they'll have a higher position than the Queen. But well, who knows.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

I mean, that's the point most likely. No consort add-on, just King and Queen.

Eh, Mystery came first, so Binding Blade isn't stablishing precedent. And... well, I think it's the same boat over there. Holder of the title, not so much an indication that they'll have a higher position than the Queen. But well, who knows.

So ... I just talked to eclipse, who says that women couldn't inherit the Archanean throne. That would mean that Nyna indeed does not have any power at all. Hm, that may be the case for Deirdre and Julia as well then.

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1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

So ... I just talked to eclipse, who says that women couldn't inherit the Archanean throne. That would mean that Nyna indeed does not have any power at all. Hm, that may be the case for Deirdre and Julia as well then.

Oh, must've found something in the scripts then. Would at least want to know where it was stated for competion's sake.

Julia at least I think that one is specified that Seliph inherits for being Dierdre's firstborn. Which is its own kind of weird since it means having the brand of Naga is not priority, which you'd think it would considering things.

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1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Oh, must've found something in the scripts then. Would at least want to know where it was stated for competion's sake.

Julia at least I think that one is specified that Seliph inherits for being Dierdre's firstborn. Which is its own kind of weird since it means having the brand of Naga is not priority, which you'd think it would considering things.

Unfortunately I've never looked through FE3/12's scripts myself, nor have I played it, so I couldn't tell you for sure.

Honestly, the whole Seliph-Julius-Julia situation is so weird. I do agree with you that perhaps being sons and older than Julia gave both Seliph and Julius priority over Julia. It's also weird how King Azmur (?) seems to just assume that Arvis and Deirdre's firstborn son would be Major Naga. Since, uh, Seliph certainly wasn't. And neither was Julius. What did this kingdom do if a girl/younger son got major Naga over the firstborn son? Did that literally never happen in their past? It also doesn't explain Deirdre and Arvis ... although I guess that could be explained by Deirdre being a literal forest maiden with no memories or ruling experience but STILL.

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6 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Honestly, the whole Seliph-Julius-Julia situation is so weird. I do agree with you that perhaps being sons and older than Julia gave both Seliph and Julius priority over Julia. It's also weird how King Azmur (?) seems to just assume that Arvis and Deirdre's firstborn son would be Major Naga. Since, uh, Seliph certainly wasn't. And neither was Julius. What did this kingdom do if a girl/younger son got major Naga over the firstborn son? Did that literally never happen in their past? It also doesn't explain Deirdre and Arvis ... although I guess that could be explained by Deirdre being a literal forest maiden with no memories or ruling experience but STILL.

Looking at the script, he says "If the child inherits the power of Narga, he shall be Prince of Grandbell.", which seems to indicate he himself isn't sure. Maybe because he thinks the child might get the Major Fjalar? A reasonable assumption since Saias' existence and parentage would be unknown to almost everyone at the time.

I would think so. It has only been a little over a century since the Crusaders. So only a few generations, so yes, it's possible the Grannvale royalty never married another Major Blood holder. Since normally those would be also firstborns, and expected to inherit their lands, not be married off to another Royal Family.

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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Went digging through FE12's script, and I found this.

https://wiki.serenesforest.net/index.php/Chapter_19:_The_Final_Battle_(Script)

I don't think it explicitly says a woman can't ascend the throne, but the language used there - to restore Archanea to its former glory a king was needed - definitely suggests that Nyna didn't have any power. And apparently the only eligible choices were, uh, other royals I guess.

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Looking at the script, he says "If the child inherits the power of Narga, he shall be Prince of Grandbell.", which seems to indicate he himself isn't sure. Maybe because he thinks the child might get the Major Fjalar? A reasonable assumption since Saias' existence and parentage would be unknown to almost everyone at the time.

I would think so. It has only been a little over a century since the Crusaders. So only a few generations, so yes, it's possible the Grannvale royalty never married another Major Blood holder. Since normally those would be also firstborns, and expected to inherit their lands, not be married off to another Royal Family.

Reasonable enough, I suppose. It's too bad that a lot of these factors never came up, or no one seemed to come up with the idea they could happen! XD

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14 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Went digging through FE12's script, and I found this.

https://wiki.serenesforest.net/index.php/Chapter_19:_The_Final_Battle_(Script)

I don't think it explicitly says a woman can't ascend the throne, but the language used there - to restore Archanea to its former glory a king was needed - definitely suggests that Nyna didn't have any power. And apparently the only eligible choices were, uh, other royals I guess.

Oh, that bit was brought up recently in discussion in another thread.

I think part of that is that Boah is worried about the continuation of the royal bloodline. So a King is needed in the sense that he and Nyna would sire progeny and thus preserve the bloodline for at least a generation more. It's just conjecture, but the fact is that Medeus did had the entire royal family sans Nyna executed, so Boah being concerned over that can be valid. Bring back the glory of a thriving royal bloodline. Not that the other thing couldn't be true either, however.

Quote

Reasonable enough, I suppose. It's too bad that a lot of these factors never came up, or no one seemed to come up with the idea they could happen! XD

One thing is certain is that Grannvale does seem to practice Agnatic-Cognatic succession. Like, after Briggid disappeared, the younger Andrei was deemed heir over Edain, for example. Though admittedly we don't know either when was this stablished. Was it something that happened by default, or Edain relinquished when choosing to become a cleric (after also ditching the chance of knighthood apparently too) and focus on finding her sister? Who knows...

Edited by Acacia Sgt

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9 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

Umm... Nyna was first playable in Mystery of the Emblem for Book 2 and then playable again in BS Fire Emblem.

Uh...yeah...that's exactly what I said. If she didn't prove herself actually able to fight it never would have even been a question. She would have simply been a non combatant. 

Edited by Jotari

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If Nyna is playable, then they either need to A) make it so that when she dies, she just "retreats" instead; B) make her dying a Game Over condition; or C) rewrite the story so that everything can still happen with a dead Nyna. I don't care for any of these options, personally. B feels the least bad to me, but it would make Ironmanning significantly harder (assuming she's a forced-deploy). I really wouldn't have wanted the Archanea remakes to replicate the modern "damn, I've been defeated! But I can't fall here." People die when they are killed. That's the way it should be.

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If Nyna is playable, then they either need to A) make it so that when she dies, she just "retreats" instead; B) make her dying a Game Over condition; or C) rewrite the story so that everything can still happen with a dead Nyna. I don't care for any of these options, personally. B feels the least bad to me, but it would make Ironmanning significantly harder (assuming she's a forced-deploy). I really wouldn't have wanted the Archanea remakes to replicate the modern "damn, I've been defeated! But I can't fall here." People die when they are killed. That's the way it should be.

I don't see any reason to make her a forced deployment. I'm pretty sure Elincia isn't forced deployed in her chapters in Path of Radiance. And in general there's no need to force deploy her any more than the likes of Robin or Kris as major non lord protagonists.

On 11/18/2022 at 9:51 PM, Jotari said:

I do struggle to think of how she could stand out in gameplay. Magic in Archanea is kind of boring what with only having one type and two classes. Most units trend the same way. I actually think I might prefer the first game's magic system to Shadow Dragon's XD

I've actually thought of a pretty interesting way to make her unique. We giver the Again staff as an exclusive weapon (or, uh, staff). Though not as a low use super nuke weapon that it is in Old Mystery. Make it an infinite use one tile refresher so Nyna suddenly becomes your dancer of the game. A Dancer in Shadow Dragon would really add to it, imo. Since there's so little you can do in the way of repositioning units. It would also add to the warp skip meta game Shadow Dragon has by making single turn clears all the more viable with easy planning. I personally don't put much stock in that as an advantage, but it clearly was something they were intending to be a core element of the game by keeping around the high use infinite range warp staffs gained as early as chapter 3, and having a refresher would lean into that.

In regards to how this works with the New Mystery remake, maybe don't use the literal Again staff name in New Mystery and call it Artemis Staff or something so the Again Staff can still be used in that game. She could come with her Artemis Staff in her inventory in New Mystery too, which would help the (almost mandatory) 1 turn clears of the final boss too.

 

Or, alternatively, and this is something I don't think anyone would have much grounds to object to, we make Nyna a character exclusive to multiplayer mode, like Guinevere before her as a Trial Map unit. Shadow Dragon has an, actually rather good imo, multiplayer mode that I wish I could have played more of, but wifi connections weren't what they are now back then, at least in my country. Nyna could have come as a unit available for that who is a level 20 Bishop that you can deploy once you've beaten the game. In fact, it'd be kind of nice to see other characters from the game like Camus available in such a way depending on which Hard mode you beat, giving incentive to try them all. Six difficulty modes, so six units; Nyna, Camus, Michalis, Gharnef {sans Imhullu unless you want the meta game to revolve entirely around Star Light XD}, Jiol and....I'd be tempted to say Medeus for Hard 5, but as it's a multiplayed mode that wouldn't fly the same was playable Ashnard, so the sixth unit would have to be...Morzas, the Dragon who ate Marth's mother; just to have a Mage Dragon avilable.

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It does make some sense for Nyna not to fight. She's the sole surviving member of the Archanean line. If she dies so does the royal family and maybe even Archenea itself. Then again plenty of characters in the series are the last heirs of their respective nations and they still get involved in the fighting.

On 11/18/2022 at 1:51 PM, Jotari said:

Thing is, Nyna is very much the exception to this. Archanea has a setting wherein the royalty are expected to take to the field. It's not just Marth. Hardin, Michalis, Minerva, Shiida, Jiol, Sheena and even Maria all take to the field. It is practical to keep your head of state safe behind enemy lines, but those are very much not the rules Archanea works under. The only monarch other than Nyna who doesn't fight for her people is Ludwik, who is considered pretty cowardly, and considering he dies a few years later, probably literally can't.

If you'd excuse the nitpick I'd point out that Hardin's brother doesn't do any fighting either. Hardin does all the fighting in his place due to his poor health.

I think the political situation might explain why Nyna might be held to different standards than the others. Archenea is seemingly a somewhat underdeveloped continent with the country of Archenea as its only ''real'' state which the others being recently created vassals under it suzerainty. They're all secondary nations headed by secondary monarchs. Grust is an island of barbarians colonized by an Archanean general, Gra and Altea are teensy tiny island nations, Talys is apparently an extremely recent country that's so minor that Caeda doesn't count herself as a ''real princess'', and everything north of Aurelis is just a barbarian wasteland. 

So in that sense most ''monarchs'' in Archenea are more akin to military governors swearing fealty to their liege in Pales. 

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2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It does make some sense for Nyna not to fight. She's the sole surviving member of the Archanean line. If she dies so does the royal family and maybe even Archenea itself. Then again plenty of characters in the series are the last heirs of their respective nations and they still get involved in the fighting.

If you'd excuse the nitpick I'd point out that Hardin's brother doesn't do any fighting either. Hardin does all the fighting in his place due to his poor health.

Well yeah, that's true. And for full cohesiveness, the same is true for Shiida's father (who I've recently discovered actually has a name). But it seems, like Ludwick, they literally can't fight due to ailing health, or in Shiida's father's case, wanting to minimize how wrapped up Talys gets in the war.

On the inverse side, Mannu and Medeus both fight too. But they're manaketes and not really a good comparison to human cultures...although as it happens neither of them actually go on the offensive. You rock up to their castle and kill them...Though again, in Medeus's case he literally can't take the field and use his full power, and it's implied that if he could, he would have left his keep earlier to do some dragon fighting.

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the political situation might explain why Nyna might be held to different standards than the others. Archenea is seemingly a somewhat underdeveloped continent with the country of Archenea as its only ''real'' state which the others being recently created vassals under it suzerainty. They're all secondary nations headed by secondary monarchs. Grust is an island of barbarians colonized by an Archanean general, Gra and Altea are teensy tiny island nations, Talys is apparently an extremely recent country that's so minor that Caeda doesn't count herself as a ''real princess'', and everything north of Aurelis is just a barbarian wasteland. 

So in that sense most ''monarchs'' in Archenea are more akin to military governors swearing fealty to their liege in Pales. 

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and definitely rings through to the way Archanea is viewed. Though, again, the two Manakete nations fall out of that paradigm a bit.

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