Did Lucina really have to flee to the past?

[Wanderer11037]

I've always found it hard to believe that Lucina's timeline was completely doomed. I know we're told that one of the gemstones has been lost (would've been nice if we found out exactly how that happened in  the future kids' supports or something but I appreciate that they themselves might not be aware of the details) so the Awakening can't be done but surely there were other options that could've been explored before dooming the timeline and jumping ship to the past.

Does the Valentian falchion exist or has it been lost to the ages? What about dark magic? Have they interrogated any remaining Grimleal for any info? How do the Morgans factor into this? We know that Robin themselves has the power to defeat Grima but we never see the future children (main ones or FP timeline-ones) question if Morgan could do the same. When dealing with armageddon it seems like a sensible thing to explore. Even if the 12 don't know about Robin having children, Naga surely would but she doesn't seem to bring them up once. Even if they were clearly under Grima's sway in the FP timelines, we don't know if they even tried to reach out to/reason with them. We also know from the main campaign that Ylisse has no shortage of legendary weapons from other continents lying around. Yes they're implied to be thoroughly depowered due to their age but that's some serious fire-power not being put to use in the supposed war for the survival of the human race.

While I know it's a work of retcon -  the Thabes labyrinth is certainly something Naga should've been aware of. When looking to best a lovecraftian-style world ending threat, it seems a sensible move to investigate the ruins that it came from. Maybe you'll find something in it's origins that'll help you destory it for good. Another avenue that probably should've been explored was making a new contract with Naga over some other weapon rather than despairing over not being able to renew the existing contract with Falchion. Is it ever stated that Naga can't do this or is it something to do with her only existing in that ethereal form so she has no physical fangs left to forge a blade from?

But that brings me to anther point of contention - in Shadow Dragon, if Marth fails to reclaim Falchion from Gharnef and Tiki hasn't been recruited to the party, you're whisked away to a gaiden where you recruit (the manakete of questionable canonicity) Nagi. She then gives the Hero-king-to-be a heavier lower Mt Falchion that was most likely forged from one of her own fangs. While I appreciate Nagi might not even exist in FEA, Tiki certainly does. Couldn't she produce a Falchion of her own and bless it like she does in the FP timeline when she ascends as that world's new Naga? Yes they don't have the completed binding shield but I always got the impression that the Awakening was there to RENEW the contract/re-bless the blade rather than empower it in the first place. Sure the peoples of the far-future might be a bit screwed what with no mechanism to re-energise this hypothetical Tiki!Falchion but hey at least Lucina and co are in the clear.

On a final less relevant point, we're never told whether Naga herself knows that their universe operates on multiverse/many-worlds theory rather than linear back-to-the-future style time travel. Grima clearly thinks its the later since he thought he had to travel to the past to ensure the kids didn't jeopardise his existence . We also find out in Fates that because of some Silent!Dragon shenanigans and Grima's jump to and subsequent demise in the past, the future has been able to recover somewhat. I guess that kinda makes everything feel a little redundant by that point. Why doesn't Naga banish Grima to a desolate outrealm instead? He might be a destructive force of nature but he's seemingly unable to jump between realms so he'd be stuck there... I guess seeing that "resolution" to the original/future timeline just rubbed me the wrong way. Felt like a bit of a cop-out all things considered.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I really want a prequel-sequel type game exploring Lucina's timeline XD 

[SoulWeaver]

4 hours ago, Wanderer11037 said:

Does the Valentian falchion exist or has it been lost to the ages?

This is never properly explained, but my personal theory is that the Kingsfang Falchion was destroyed during Grima's original rise to power - all five of the gemstones are located in Archanea, meaning Valentia wouldn't even have the option to perform an Awakening and would have to fight Grima with essentially Chapter 1-level Falchion. The only (admittedly shaky) in-game evidence I have to back this idea up is that SoV's ending states that the Alm Dynasty lasted roughly 1000 years, which happens to coincide with the first appearance of Grima. My theory is that Grima finally got out of Thabes, went to Valentia, nuked the place, ending the Alm Dynasty perhaps as a direct result of destroying the unawakened Kingsfang, then went back to Archanea, where the First Exalt proceeded to seal him.

Afraid I don't really have much for the others, though I can make a suggestion regarding Nagi - it seems to be implied that the Alterspire exists within an alternate world. Possibly an Outrealm, but this, like everything regarding Nagi, is kept very vague intentionally. If it does exist within an Outrealm, then logically the Outrealm Gate should be able to fix the problem - but we're assuming the Outrealm Gate still exists in Lucina's time. I'd presume the Outrealm idea was already considered and probably tried, and I'd guess Grima nuked the Gate, meaning that Outrealms are probably not a possibility. Again, this is all conjecture since the game assumed it was going to be the last one and proceeded to not do any super in-depth explaining of the key worldbuilding questions like this, but it makes the most sense to me.

[TheSilentChloey]

The other thing to keep in mind as well, which is important is that lore wise, we do not get a whole lot of information.

 

Probably it's a leave it to the players and how they interpret the information that is presented.

Edited November 18, 2022 by TheSilentChloey

[Morgan--Grandmaster]

The way I see it, a lot more people are alive and a lot less property is destroyed, so I don't really question it.

[Wanderer11037]

Valid(ar XD) points all around.

53 minutes ago, TheSilentChloey said:

The other thing to keep in mind as well, which is important is that lore wise, we do not get a whole lot of information.

I think the main reason I'm so caught up on all this (especially the lack of details)  is because we've never really had a FE game that has done the doomsday scenario justice. I know things get super bleak in FE4's intermission but by the time the second half of the game has wrapped up all is right with the world again. FEA and Lucina's experience as her world's last hope always stuck out to me as something super unique Lord-wise so it's a bit of shame that those themes of perserverance in the face of unsurmountable odds etc weren't as fully explored as they could've been.

2 hours ago, SoulWeaver said:

SoV's ending states that the Alm Dynasty lasted roughly 1000 years, which happens to coincide with the first appearance of Grima

Ngl didn't pay much attention to SOV so finding out Alm/Celica's house supposedly died out around the time of the og schism is a good catch.

40 minutes ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

a lot more people are alive and a lot less property is destroyed

I can't argue that things undoubtedly ended up better for the main game timeline so the time travel certainly did save some worlds. However I don't think it's fair to say any of that was done with the future in mind. It always seemed to me that Grima following them back was unplanned so Naga was hoping he'd have been stuck there. Him chasing the kids back to the past, Anankos undoing most of the physical damage at the Fates trio's request etc were all merely coincidences. So yh things did turn out better overall, but I doubt that Naga in-universe could have taken all that into account. Ah the joys of retroactive continuity

[TheSilentChloey]

3 hours ago, Morgan--Grandmaster said:

The way I see it, a lot more people are alive and a lot less property is destroyed, so I don't really question it.

Same.

 

I literally don't want to think it over too much because really the entire point is just come up with your own headcanon and enjoy the game for what it is.

[SoulWeaver]

On 11/18/2022 at 4:37 PM, Wanderer11037 said:

Ngl didn't pay much attention to SOV so finding out Alm/Celica's house supposedly died out around the time of the og schism is a good catch.

It's only there in Alm's credits ending blurb, even if you were paying attention to the game itself you could easily miss it, and I didn't make the connection myself until I was replaying Awakening after beating SoV and somebody mentioned the First Exalt being 1k years ago, which lines up just about right and led to me making my own pseudo-nonsense timeline trying to fit all the FE games into one cohesive whole.

Due to release positioning SoV honestly feels like it took Awakening's nods to Gaiden and cemented them in canon, which is kind of cool - Inigo's Paralogue is a reference to Duma's Gate, which was then solidified in SoV with the boss sharing the same name(Jamil), Alm's ending blurb makes sure to line up with the First Exalt, it's kind of neat.

This also technically means that either Walhart is not actually a descendant of Alm like people believe(despite him having a slight resemblance to Emperor Rudolf) or I'm right and the ownership of the Kingsfang was what cemented the 'Dynasty' of Alm's lineage, and losing the Kingsfang didn't end the bloodline, but did end the bloodline's royal claim.

On 11/18/2022 at 4:37 PM, Wanderer11037 said:

I think the main reason I'm so caught up on all this (especially the lack of details)  is because we've never really had a FE game that has done the doomsday scenario justice.

Yeah, Awakening and RD if I understand correctly are the only two that have really gone in on the idea, with Awakening exploring the concept both before and after the fact simultaneously(frickin' time travel) and RD exploring it attempting to happen in real time(with Ashera petrifying all the peeps or something I dunno I never played Tellius).

I actually have a concept in my writing backlog that Chloey's heard about and the WYBO thread has seen a tiny snippet of, which is to explore the idea of a fallen Magvel(Sacred Stones), where Lyon succeeds in killing Ephraim during the event where he tricks Eirika, leading to the world going to crap as the holders of the other Sacred Twin Weapons are all hunted down and slain, until only Eirika remains as a pseudo-vigilante, hated by her own people for causing this and unable to truly set things right herself due to needing Siegmund for Sieglinde to work properly.

Overall, I don't think actual mainline FE games will ever really explore something as serious as the protag actually failing ever again, but there's plenty of potential for fangames and individual writing work to cover that concept, you just gotta find people willing to explore the idea.

Edited November 20, 2022 by SoulWeaver

[Acacia Sgt]

42 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

This also technically means that either Walhart is not actually a descendant of Alm like people believe(despite him having a slight resemblance to Emperor Rudolf) or I'm right and the ownership of the Kingsfang was what cemented the 'Dynasty' of Alm's lineage, and losing the Kingsfang didn't end the bloodline, but did end the bloodline's royal claim.

I think that's the case. Due to Grima, the One Kingdom of Valentia imploded. So the bloodline likely survived but as a ruling dyansty are no more. At least, as the dyansty of a kingdom that no longer exists. Kinda like the Habsburgs today. Still alive today, but their days as Austria's rulers, as well the Austrian Empire itself, are no more. Or to use Awakening itself, Marth's dynasty still ruling a rump Ylisse after the loss of the Unified Kingdom of Archanea. Since Walhart was still a ruler himself. Of the rump Kingdom of Valm, based on where Rigel Castle used to be (or still is? would be impressive if the castle still stands after two thousand years considering Grima's rampage). So same situation could apply there as with Marth's descendants.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[SoulWeaver]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

(or still is? would be impressive if the castle still stands after two thousand years considering Grima's rampage)

It's been a while, but I think if you line the maps up, Rigel Castle comes out pretty close to Walhart's Xenologue map's location on the Awakening world map. Said map is a series of ruins, so I think it's safe to say the castle is out.

[SnowFire]

I definitely respect the thought about how it can be dramatically interesting to keep fighting against hopeless odds and unstoppable Lovecraftian demigods.  I think if someone ever wanted to do something more than the Future Past DLC for an exploration of the "bad timeline", it would require some sorting out of plot holes when what we know of the bad timeline is critically examined (pick something more concrete for What Exactly Happened), which is doable, but also figuring out what to do with Naga, which is...  not really.  There's a reason that fantasy stories often either lack good deities entirely, have exceptionally weak good deities, or have good deities that are hesitant to intervene for Reasons.  You get into some "well why don't you handle everything" and "so what exactly CAN you do" type questions which probably don't have fulfilling answers.  Notably, the Awakening rite, aka what the game is named after, really doesn't make tons of sense unless Naga is just a jerk (which is 100% not intended).  People are dying from the Risen from the start; doesn't Naga care?  For that matter, why restrict it via bloodline, rather than something like "only the pure of heart"?  You'd think she'd be handing out Exalted Fachions like candy to her worshippers if she just eased up on that.  This isn't an easily evadable question, because in the "new" timeline of FE:A, asking Naga for help is indeed a big part of the plot, so why wasn't Naga properly asked for help before?  What help could she have provided?  Honestly, saying "sorry Naga was sealed away in our timeline" or something probably would have explained things somewhat, but that clearly wasn't true because Naga sent the kids back in time, so she is clearly around and able to perform exceptional feats of power.  Thus, the most obvious way to do a Lucina-timeline game would be something like "what if the kids asked Naga for something else to win the fight, rather than reset everything," which is cool and all, but it *immediately* raises the question of what Naga can offer.  Which isn't where you really want to be if your main idea is stuff like sifting through the Thabes Labyrinth for clues as to Grima's origin and the like.

The good news is that it's vague enough that there's room for retcons & flexibility, but it's not the easiest side-quel to write about.

Edited November 20, 2022 by SnowFire

[Wanderer11037]

Yh I can see how having beings like Naga with poorly defined abilities/rule-sets can be problematic. I think SOV/gaiden deserves some credit there because Mila and Duma were pretty well defined in there philosophies - the former showering her bounty onto the faithful, the latter tempering the will to succeed through hardship and grit. (Duma's the parent that throws their kid into the river to teach them how to swim XD) Sure their powers aren't as defined either, but we at least have an idea about what they are and aren't willing to interfere in. Even Fe4 and Forseti come to mind as better examples of this being done - interference into mortal affairs but with restraint/within certain parameters.

14 hours ago, SnowFire said:

There's a reason that fantasy stories often either lack good deities entirely, have exceptionally weak good deities, or have good deities that are hesitant to intervene for Reasons.  You get into some "well why don't you handle everything" and "so what exactly CAN you do" type questions which probably don't have fulfilling answers. 

I think you've made me realise its more of an issue with Naga and the manaketes than with the future kids. The divine dragon's abilities do seem kinda nonsensical when you stack them up against each other. Want me to transport you to Grima's back, stop him from doing a barrel role and sending you and your army plummeting to your doom, restore you to perfect health, send you back in time or bring your friend back from the dead? Sure. What's that you want another Kingsfang? *Naga has left the chat* 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Wanderer11037