Do you think Lyon worked as a villain? (aka a Lyon-rewrite)

[Wanderer11037]

I've recently been dabbling in some Fe8 plot analysis and that got me thinking about Lyon's role in the story and his impact on Grado/Magvel. Personally I don't find him too convincing as a sympathetic villain for a number of reasons. 

One thing I won't deny is the fact that he's certainly an interesting character on paper. While I'm not a fan of the route split in general, it definitely provided some interesting characterisation for him as in Ephraim's route we get to see his "Demon-king possessed" persona while in Eirika's we see more of his "normal" self. As such with Ephraim we get an insight into his insecurities and the bottled up jealousy he felt towards his former friend. I've always enjoyed antagonists having a meaningful connection with the protags (assuming it's done well that is) so having a former friend who's turned against you out of a mix of despair and resentment is a super interesting premise. Meanwhile we see "Lyon" showing more of his old persona when dealing with Eirika, all to lull her into the false sense of security that the DK capitalises on when he swindles her out of Renais' stone. I do quite like how overtly possessed he is on the former route while in the latter by contrast we don't actually know how much of Lyon we're seeing or not. That ambiguity adds a lot to him imo.

However, I feel like a lot more could've been done in the present-day storywise to build him up as a truly unwilling villain. Reserving all his normal behaviour (polite, reserved, kind etc) for flashbacks worked to his detriment. We needed to see more of him wrestling with his possession. I'm thinking along the lines of Robin at the end of the Awakening Future Past DLC where they're able to over-power Grima's control and paralyse him for long enough for Lucina to deal the final blow, except throughout the whole of the game. Maybe DK!Lyon issues an order of no quarter to the Grado 6 through his Vigarde-mouthpiece but then normal!Lyon breaks through briefly and rescinds the order. It'd also be great to see them in Lyon's mindscape and witness their back and forths,that way we'd get a glimpse of his thoughts on the current war and he'd feel like less of a none-character. We also need to see more of his remorse for how things have turned out. We know from his backstory and experiments, he was messing with the forces at be for the sake of saving Grado so we know he'd likely be horrified by how things are playing out. It'd be great to see this in his interaction with the Lords; perhaps he calls out to Eirika in desperation to save him or he goads Ephraim into finishing him off for the greater good. This would also do a lot of good for Formotiis, as he doesn't really have any presence in the story so it'd be great to see how he manipulates his vessel and the other Grado higher-ups; it'd definitely make him feel a lot more malevolent and threatening.

As for Lyon's backstory prior to the game's events, his relationship with Eirika and Ephraim was fine, although it'd be nice to get more of his feelings of inadequacy compared to the latter and his pining for the former. His experimentation with the stone of Grado is where things become problematic if you ask me. So his prohetic dark-magic-induced dream is fine but I wish more was done with it. Yes it might be a little cliche but imagine if the earthquake that he foresaw was actually something he later causes himself in a fateful confrontation with Ephraim at Grado hall while he's under the influence of the DK? How tragic would it be for him, the well-meaning (albeit clearly naive) prince, unintentioanlly brings about the very disaster he was willing to give up everything to avert. Doesn't get more unfortunate than the classic self-fulfilling prophecy. (And if we follow through with the mindscape idea, we'd get to see the fading away/corrupted Lyon who's been trapped within his own mind finally snap. We'd see the meek prince finally furious at the DK for his treachery;  this being the catalyst for him to slowly claw back control from the Big F. I think it'd do a lot for his character as it'd cement his selfless nature. Yes he might not retaliate if you slight/abuse him but the second his people are in the firing line you see the anger) Having the Grado-destroying earthqauke it's prince was willing to make a deal with the literal devil to avoid happen off-screen/in the epilogue is sooo underwhelming. We want to see CARNAGE

His actions in response to all this however are questionable at best and completely illogical at worst. Why not let your stalwart allies in Renais know? It's unlikely they'll try to capitalise on your misfortune considering the character of the royal family. If anything they'll offer you counsel and support? Why note confide in your dear friends the greif and hopelessness you feel because of this, on top of what you're going through with the death of your father. Why bury yourselff in the dark arts in an attempt to revive your decseased father? Motivations aside, we needed more focus on Lyon's impossible mission to cheat death and bring his father back rather than being the afterthought that it was in the actual story. Building on that master-gaslighter Formotiis idea from earlier, why not have the big F start to "haunt" Lyon as he conducts his research; filling the prince's head with misery and despair. We need to see the big F corrupting the sorrowful prince's worldvoew, isolating him from his friends and family and preying on his insecurities. The seedlings of inadequacy and self-doubt are already there so the DK already has a good base to work from. Let's see Lyon convince himself that he has no choice but to revive his wise father as the man is the only one capabe of preparing the Empire for the oncoming disaster. Let's see him categorically reject his fellow researchers' and advisors' pleas for him to stop and assume the throne because he'd do fine. I suggest this all because I have no idea what in-canon could lead a sane person to bet his nation's future on the devil-incarnate faustian bargain-style. Lyon himself IIRC attempts to use the DK's power via the dark stone and that's what gets him possessed. Without any of this his actions seem pretty careless and that really detracts from the whole tragic villain-angle. And this way, we're building a character arc for him; the man who once ran from his responsibilities and chased a delusion unleashing chaos on the world in the process later owns up to his mistakes and acknowledges what he did was wrong. This leads me to the biggest gripe I have about him, that being that:

The man shoud've survived! (and been playable for that matter) I have no idea how this would be executed but towards the end of the story, once Grado has fallen and we're approaching the endgame we need to see Lyon eventually expel the Demon King from his body through sheer force of will - maybe with some power of friendship shenanigans or via a Sacred Stone. His fate in canon gives me some major Pelleas vibes in that he dies and is practically exonerated for what he's done for no good reason. (In the same way I prefer the NG+ option of Pelleas being able to live and ride out the consequences of his failures as King of Daein, I envision Lyon going through the same thing). I want to see him grapple with what he's done, resolve to throw himself into the fight to restore peace and return home in shame and have to work himself back from the gutter Emmeryn-style. Why would this do anything for him? Well we'd get to see the sincerity and kindheartedness that we've been told he seems to have so much of on display for once. Yes he might be hated by his people, but he throws himself into his role as king because he knows that's his duty and that it's his form of atonement and maybe in the epilogue we learn that he does infact one day re-earn their trust. As the old saying goes, trust takes years to build but an instant to lose so let's see the once popular prince go through such an arc!

This certainly deviated from an analysis of Lyon's failings as a tragic villain to a full-blown character rewrite but unlike the other GBA-era antagonists (other than maybe Zephiel King of Bern) he actually seemed to have a lot of potential as an effective yet sympathetic villain. I guess that's why I find his whole premise so captivating. So what do you good people think? Lyon bad or Lyon Good? (And a thank you to anyone who braved that thesis. Much appreciated!) 

[Aircalipoor]

Lyon is one of the better villains, which isnt saying much, considering how low the standard is in the franchise. Sprinkling his backstory out throughout the game was an effective narrative choice to have him be consistently present. Locking some content behind Knolls support is also an unconventional method and reward for players who bother to dig deeper. FE7 was even doper with this with Kishunas gaiden chapters (though without a guide the unlock mechanics were shit,, what legend unlocked 19xx without a guide or any hint?).

 

Biggest problem why he isn't the best villain in the franchise was highlighted in your essay: He doesn't develop throughout the game from good to questionable to corrupted to torn to evil, he merely does every one of those tantalizing steps in the backstory. In the prologue he is already fully possessed and Lyon is already as hopelessly lost as he is in the final chapter. Having him being good first, then questionable and corrupted in the early-mid game just for him to fall only at the endgame would make the story significantly dramatic, his fall would have an impact, since he was shown and known as good ingame. Lyon would be an antagonist mirroring the lords and growing along them throughout the game, failing whenever they succeeed and vice versa. Which tends to be better than a stale villain who doesn't change at all.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I tend to think Lyon is a pretty good tragic villain as-is. Expanding on his characterization, at least in the ways proposed, leads to a couple perils. One is that you take up to much of the player's time - the game feels like it's less about Eirika and Ephraim, and more about Lyon. The other is that you make him too sympathetic, and leave the player uncomfortable actually fighting him. It's not necessarily the case that either of these would happen, but I still think we should be mindful that "more isn't always better".

On 11/20/2022 at 6:04 PM, Wanderer11037 said:

The man shoud've survived! (and been playable for that matter) I have no idea how this would be executed but towards the end of the story, once Grado has fallen and we're approaching the endgame we need to see Lyon eventually expel the Demon King from his body through sheer force of will - maybe with some power of friendship shenanigans or via a Sacred Stone.

IMO this undermines the poetic tragedy of his narrative arc, and turns the story into a bit of a "wish fulfillment". Being willing to face loss, and accept it, is one of the game's core themes. Lyon was unable to, and it led him down a path of darkness. Same with Orson. Ephraim and Eirika need to let their friend go, or the narrative will lose all the bite it once had.

On 11/20/2022 at 6:04 PM, Wanderer11037 said:

His actions in response to all this however are questionable at best and completely illogical at worst. Why not let your stalwart allies in Renais know? It's unlikely they'll try to capitalise on your misfortune considering the character of the royal family. If anything they'll offer you counsel and support?

Lyon probably feared that they would try to dissuade him, or even actively stop him, from his plan to revive his father. Knowing Ephraim and Eirika, they would almost certainly do the former, and quite possibly the latter. He doesn't want to face his friends - he always has been quite meek - so he chooses to suffer in silence, and scheme in secret.

[Etrurian emperor]

Lyon is great. The only real drawback about him is that he has to carry the lame Fomortiis around with him like a ball and chain. Lyon's interesting and tragic, but every couple of lines he gets hijacked by a generically evil blob. 

[Paper Jam]

Quote

Why not let your stalwart allies in Renais know?

Because Vigarde specifically ordered him not to, and it's not like Lyon to defy Vigarde.

The man shoud've survived! (and been playable for that matter) I have no idea how this would be executed but towards the end of the story, once Grado has fallen and we're approaching the endgame we need to see Lyon eventually expel the Demon King from his body through sheer force of will

I disagree. I like how close Lyon came to regaining control over himself in Ephraim's route, but I don't think he should have come any closer than that.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Paper Jam

[DanielleDoll]

I feel like Lyon was definitely one of the more well-written villains in the series, for sure. It was pretty sad that he was constantly overshadowed by the blatant over-edginess of a lot of his lines while being possessed by the big ol' scary demon man, but even with that, he works really well as a villain, I think. Especially considering how he seemed to try and fight his fate, yet failed in the end. Like, I'm not exactly Captain Character Analysis, but I still think that was pretty cool. Overall, he's definitely more memorable than a lot of Fire Emblem antagonists. He's no Black Knight, but he's also not King Garon, so I'd say they did a good job with him.