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eriyg

Ranked HHM: general questions

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I'm in prep for 23x: Genesis in an HHM ranked run right now and I need to start making some big decisions. I don't have exact stats, but I have 5* in everything, except 4* tactics.

First, my lord lvs are exactly 49, do I want to play Lloyd or Linus in the next chapter? I know I can use Hawkeye to kill Lloyd in like 3 turns, but can I get a better tactics improvement if I play Linus really well? Also I'd strongly prefer to have Geitz over Wallace. I did LHM before this and didn't promote Wallace. Ultimately, Geitz won't make a huge difference, but he'd be nice to have.

Similarly, is it better to play Kenneth or Jerme? Also, does Canas' levels count for this? If not, I could get Jerme, otherwise I'm stuck with Kenneth. In any case, what map is generally recommended?

Last, how many promotes can I do and expect to keep a 5* funds rank? I'm trying to not be too reckless with expensive weapons, but I have broken the Wolf Beil, am burning through Physic staves, and have used Silver weapons a bit. I S ranked ENM and HNM a while ago and I think I used around 4. My current plan is to promote Heath, Fiora, and Canas and use Boots on Hector instead of a 4th promote. What units generally get promoted in ranked HHM runs and when? Are Boots or any other stat boosters used? I can almost see Body Ring on Athos to double the dragon, but that isn't really necessary.

Edited by eriyg
fixed punctuation

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58 minutes ago, eriyg said:

Similarly, is it better to play Kenneth or Jerme? Also, does Canas' levels count for this? If not, I could get Jerme, otherwise I'm stuck with Kenneth. In any case, what map is generally recommended?

Canas' level doesn't count, presumably because he comes from a paralogue. It's only Serra, Erk, Priscilla, and Lucius.

I imagine Kenneth's would be quicker, because it's Seize rather than Rout. But I haven't beaten HHM with a good ranking, TBH.

1 hour ago, eriyg said:

First, my lord lvs are exactly 49, do I want to play Lloyd or Linus in the next chapter? I know I can use Hawkeye to kill Lloyd in like 3 turns, but can I get a better tactics improvement if I play Linus really well? Also I'd strongly prefer to have Geitz over Wallace. I did LHM before this and didn't promote Wallace. Ultimately, Geitz won't make a huge difference, but he'd be nice to have.

Do the Linus map just to stunt on the game's ridiculous level requirement, and to save money on precious Torches.

I have no idea if this is remotely good advice.

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6 hours ago, eriyg said:

First, my lord lvs are exactly 49, do I want to play Lloyd or Linus in the next chapter? I know I can use Hawkeye to kill Lloyd in like 3 turns, but can I get a better tactics improvement if I play Linus really well? Also I'd strongly prefer to have Geitz over Wallace. I did LHM before this and didn't promote Wallace. Ultimately, Geitz won't make a huge difference, but he'd be nice to have.

I absolutely recommend going for Geitz in this case. On the hard difficulties, Linus!FFO has a turn requirement of 22, compared to Lloyd!FFO's 11, with neither XP (1900 vs 1650) or Funds (41500 vs 36500) being nearly as lopsided in Lloyd's favour. A 14-turn clear of Linus!FFO is basically guaranteed to be better for you than a 3-turn Lloyd!FFO, and you even have the chance to shave off another few turns.

6 hours ago, eriyg said:

Similarly, is it better to play Kenneth or Jerme? Also, does Canas' levels count for this? If not, I could get Jerme, otherwise I'm stuck with Kenneth. In any case, what map is generally recommended?

Jerme's turn requirement is 25 instead of 18, but between rout vs. seize objective, as well as more movement that you have to do through the snow, I wouldn't be surprised if it also takes at least 7 extra turns to beat his map.

Is it possible that you're confusing the map requirements? Kenneth is the one if you trained your magic users more, Jerme if you trained the Hero Crest users more. No you didn't, I just cant read proper :lol:

6 hours ago, eriyg said:

Last, how many promotes can I do and expect to keep a 5* funds rank? I'm trying to not be too reckless with expensive weapons, but I have broken the Wolf Beil, am burning through Physic staves, and have used Silver weapons a bit. I S ranked ENM and HNM a while ago and I think I used around 4. My current plan is to promote Heath, Fiora, and Canas and use Boots on Hector instead of a 4th promote. What units generally get promoted in ranked HHM runs and when? Are Boots or any other stat boosters used? I can almost see Body Ring on Athos to double the dragon, but that isn't really necessary.

I only did a single HHM ranked run, so I can't say who's 'generally' good to promote. I went with Lowen (who was a bit stat-blessed), Sain, Priscilla, Heath, and Farina. That last name might tip you off that HHM funds isn't actually as difficult to reach as it might look during the run - I was constantly a bit worried that insisting on getting Farina might bite me in the bum in the end, but I ended up with a 90k Funds surplus. My rating even went down to four stars after chapter 27 and stayed there until chapter 30.

I think I was a bit anal about using cheap weapons and I didn't use stat boosters at all (not even the boots), but I'd say you should be perfectly fine with your current plan.

Body Ring on Athos doesn't really do much, I'd say. You can easily two-round the Dragon with Filla's Might on Athos and one or two Physic uses to make sure he survives the enemy phase, so I think the funds would be better invested in an additional promotion.

Edited by ping

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15 hours ago, eriyg said:

First, my lord lvs are exactly 49, do I want to play Lloyd or Linus in the next chapter? I know I can use Hawkeye to kill Lloyd in like 3 turns, but can I get a better tactics improvement if I play Linus really well? Also I'd strongly prefer to have Geitz over Wallace. I did LHM before this and didn't promote Wallace. Ultimately, Geitz won't make a huge difference, but he'd be nice to have.

Definitely Linus. Not only do you get Geitz, you get 11 extra turns. Like, clearing Lloyd's map in 3 turns is equivalent to clearing Linus' map in 14 turns.

Try to make use of the arena, as well. 

15 hours ago, eriyg said:

Similarly, is it better to play Kenneth or Jerme? Also, does Canas' levels count for this? If not, I could get Jerme, otherwise I'm stuck with Kenneth. In any case, what map is generally recommended?

I don't think either one is specifically advantageous over the other. Jerme's map probably takes longer, but also gives you 7 more turns. I'd probably give the edge to Jerme's map because of those turns, but it's not a big deal.

15 hours ago, eriyg said:

Last, how many promotes can I do and expect to keep a 5* funds rank? I'm trying to not be too reckless with expensive weapons, but I have broken the Wolf Beil, am burning through Physic staves, and have used Silver weapons a bit. I S ranked ENM and HNM a while ago and I think I used around 4. My current plan is to promote Heath, Fiora, and Canas and use Boots on Hector instead of a 4th promote. What units generally get promoted in ranked HHM runs and when? Are Boots or any other stat boosters used? I can almost see Body Ring on Athos to double the dragon, but that isn't really necessary.

If you've been careful, gotten all treasures (especially the Ocean Seal and Silver Card), etc. then Funds won't be that big of a deal. In my HHM S rank run I promoted 6 units, one of them Lyn, and still came out pretty far ahead of the Funds threshold (~50k). I also used a few stat boosters and while I wasn't swinging around Silver Swords all day, I let myself use more expensive weapons when the time called for it. 

As for who to promote...whoever you're using and is doing well. Just look at me, Lyn was one of my most valuable units even though everyone says she sucks. I don't think enough people actually do ranked HHM runs for there to be a list of what units "generally" get promoted in them.

For stat boosters, I'd say you can use the good ones (Energy Ring, Speedwing, Boots), but maybe hang onto the rest. You can use a Body Ring on Athos if you want, but you're actually better off saving an Angelic Robe for him on the off chance the Fire Dragon rolls 40 atk.

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Thanks for all the help! I ran exact numbers, if anyone is interested:

  • Tactics is 151 / 148 (I've done all paralogues including 19xx)
  • Exp is 16,854 / 15,500 (can I take 80% of this number? think no)
  • Funds is 371,441 / 326,000 (80% of the 5* requirement)

For Lloyd/Linus, I'll definitely go to Linus. Turns should be better, and Linus only needs 250 more exp, which is extremely easy to get compared to a 3 turn Lloyd kill.

For Kenneth/Jerme, I looked at the tables/wiki and it looks like you get about 15,000 extra gold from Jerme, but Jerme only requires 6,500 more gold than Kenneth. I'm not sure about Tactics, but I think Jerme is better. Harken/Karel shows up at turn 10 and I think Kenneth is beatable at or before then, for -8 Tactics. To get -8 at Jerme would be 17 turns, which I think is manageable. However, I have only played the map once, so I could be dreadfully wrong. Since it's so close, I'll promote Raven, deploy him a lot, and send Guy to the south at Crazed Beast. If I get enough exp, great. If not, Kenneth is fine. I don't want to use Dorcas/Bartre. I've tried to force them in other runs and it's always so disappointing, especially when you compare them to Raven. tl;dr, I think Jerme is slightly better, but not worth using Dorcas/Bartre in the mid game (after Dragon's Gate). 

For promotions, 5 promotes with a 90k surplus and 6 (including Lyn) + some stat boosters with a 50k surplus really surprised me. The fact that the promote cost + surplus is similar in both cases is encouraging. Given that I'm using weapons/staves liberally, getting all treasures, and not recruiting Farina: 7 promotes + Boots seems more than safe (theoretically I can do 12?!). I'm now thinking Heath, Fiora, Sain, Raven, Oswin (Boots), and 2 Guiding Ring users. Priscilla, Erk, and Lucius are looking good right now. Canas and Serra have had disappointing level ups and I'm probably going to bench them. I only really need Luna for the dragon anyway.

 

On 11/23/2022 at 11:27 AM, Florete said:

You can use a Body Ring on Athos if you want, but you're actually better off saving an Angelic Robe for him on the off chance the Fire Dragon rolls 40 atk.

I actually didn't know about this. Final is pretty quick and easy compared to Cog and VoD, so resetting is fine. I will definitely use this if I ever do an Ironman run though.

 

More questions:

What levels are best to promote at during a ranked run? I've gotten out of the pitfall of forcing 20/20 and generally promote before lv 15 but is promoting early bad for exp compared promoting late? Is it bad enough to be concerned and get a few extra levels?

How do you guys deal with the Valkyries in Cog? In the past, I've used a 20/x Rebecca, but I spent a lot of turns setting up kills for her to get to that point, which is not viable now. Are Hawkeye/Louise/Fiora the only options?

Edited by eriyg
added detail to funds rank

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2 hours ago, eriyg said:

What levels are best to promote at during a ranked run? I've gotten out of the pitfall of forcing 20/20 and generally promote before lv 15 but is promoting early bad for exp compared promoting late? Is it bad enough to be concerned and get a few extra levels?

18-20 I'd say, but you can probably get away with some earlier promotions if you're good at spreading exp. It also somewhat depends on where you are chapter-wise, since an early promotion in late game won't have as much impact on exp as an early promotion around Ch 18 or something.

2 hours ago, eriyg said:

How do you guys deal with the Valkyries in Cog? In the past, I've used a 20/x Rebecca, but I spent a lot of turns setting up kills for her to get to that point, which is not viable now. Are Hawkeye/Louise/Fiora the only options?

Barrier or Pure Water makes a lot of units capable, but I usually use Lyn and Florina.

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I basically promoted everybody at Lv. 20, although I'm very proud of myself for promoting Heath before the start of BBD at Lv 19.95. :lol: I don't think the greed hurt me overly much - I still went into BBD with a fully promoted team (...except for Hector and my thief, ofc).

RE: Cog - I had Heath (with a Brave Lance), Harken (Brave Sword), and Farina (er... Killer Lance, probably) do the heavy lifting, all with Barrier applied, of course. Jaffar is another option (he's only borderline on doubling Valkyries, unfortunately).

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Update: I beat Linus in 18 turns (4 under 5*), took all four hero crest users to Crazed Beast, and am now in prep for Jerme. Rank screen shows 5* for everything with this breakdown:

  • Tactics: 162 / 179 which is 17 under. I lose ~20 to the rest of the Hector only chapters, but I'm anticipating at least a 10 turn surplus from Night of Farewells.
  • Exp: 23,481 / 19,550 with only 21,150 left to go. If any of my promoted units gets to 20, exp will be done. Or I could get Nino to 20...
  • Funds: 477,039 / 424,000 I stand to gain 597,800 more gold and have to gain 418,000, so I can spend 232,839 gold in items and weapon uses. I really can't say how much I spend per chapter, but I feel pretty secure with this buffer.

Raven and Heath promoted at 18 and 17 respectively, Fiora is 19:98, and Priscilla has given me a bad omen (4 is unlucky, also a fun 666) and I used Afa's drops on her. I didn't recruit Farina. Geitz is beast. He 1-rounds wyverns and can tank hits all day. Promoted Raven (and soon Harken) is my only other unit(s) who can handle wyverns that well. Hawkeye can tank, but doesn't double. Pent one rounds, but can't tank hits. I'm not sure about Hector. I've kept him out of most combats since he's lv 20 and I didn't want to waste exp.

I think the only reason to ever take on Lloyd is if you're speedrunning. Training Lynn/Eliwood isn't that bad and the Linus map is significantly easier compared to not a 3-turn Lloyd kill. We'll see how Jerme vs Kenneth turns out.

Thanks again to everyone for their advice! There's only 10 chapters left and they're all fun ones. After looking at how much work is left to maintain 5*, I think I'll actually be able to play the game instead of constantly worrying about turns/exp/gold.

 

The ominous Priscilla stats:

BadOmenPriscilla.JPG

Edited by eriyg
added caption

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6 hours ago, eriyg said:
  • Tactics: 162 / 179 which is 17 under. I lose ~20 to the rest of the Hector only chapters, but I'm anticipating at least a 10 turn surplus from Night of Farewells.
  • Exp: 23,481 / 19,550 with only 21,150 left to go. If any of my promoted units gets to 20, exp will be done. Or I could get Nino to 20...
  • Funds: 477,039 / 424,000 I stand to gain 597,800 more gold and have to gain 418,000, so I can spend 232,839 gold in items and weapon uses. I really can't say how much I spend per chapter, but I feel pretty secure with this buffer.

Unless I'm having a brainfart, you're doing even better than that - tactics requirement after Unfulfilled Heart should be 206 turns, after going to Linus!FFO, so you're doing very well in that regard.

Numbers look fine, I think - I had a much worse turncount (182) but more XP (27196) at that point. You might have to a bit mindful of the latter - I only had a surplus of 2766 XP in the end, and that was with going to Value of Life. Some of the later maps (specifically Cog and Victory or Death) have stupidly high XP requirements. That said, I avoided all non-Vaida reinforcement zones in Cog and I hit 40k at the end of VoD and didn't exactly maximise XP gain for the last two chapters as a result, so I definitely don't want to imply that you're in trouble.

7 hours ago, eriyg said:

I think the only reason to ever take on Lloyd is if you're speedrunning. Training Lynn/Eliwood isn't that bad and the Linus map is significantly easier compared to not a 3-turn Lloyd kill. We'll see how Jerme vs Kenneth turns out.

Yeah, I agree. In a ranked run, it's not even an "opportunity cost" to train them up if you want to bench them later, and a level of 16-17 isn't unreasonably high for that part of the game. The maths may change on normal difficulty, where they have the same turn requirement and not too different XP/Funds requirement, but on hard, Linus just has so much nicer requirements.

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7 hours ago, ping said:

Unless I'm having a brainfart, you're doing even better than that - tactics requirement after Unfulfilled Heart should be 206 turns, after going to Linus

You're right, my spreadsheet was wonky. Tactics is actually 201/206, but a good Jerme and Night of Farewells should still get me there.

I plan on triggering reinforcement zones in Cog and feeding Nino kills using Filla's Might, so exp is still feeling good.

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19 minutes ago, eriyg said:

You're right, my spreadsheet was wonky. Tactics is actually 201/206, but a good Jerme and Night of Farewells should still get me there.

Ah :lol: Tactics is less of a wash, then, but Night of Farewells is indeed a great asset for this rank. Value of Life might be a bit harder to fit in, though, especially since there's another zero requirement map that you have to go through in The Beserker. I personally went just about turn-neutral from ch.25 to the end - with Value of Life, but also with a fast-ish (12 turns) Cog clear without farming the reinforcements.

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