unpopular opinion: I don't like the gameplay of Fates Conquest

[Polemarco]

Hello people, I would like to talk about a topic that always leaves me thinking, the gameplay of Fates (especially conquest), Every time I heard about Fates before playing it, they always told me the same thing, "the conquest gameplay is the best in the entire saga", And well, after having replayed it a couple of times, I have always felt it was highly overrated since it has many things that I consider somewhat wasted and I wanted to comment on them.

1-Despite being one of the most difficult FEs, it gives you very few playable characters, let me explain, in other FEs they always give you characters when you advance in the game, like GBA or DS, but here they give you very few and most at the beginning, which which leaves very little variety in the mid-late game, leaving you with very few alternatives if something goes wrong or someone dies, which seems to me a very bad thing for one of the most difficult FE. I know that gen2 exists, but it's not the same, after the Xander chapter I feel that it feels too monotonous, since with so little variety of characters you feel that everything has to be perfect, since the maps demand a lot but give few resources, of course they give you enough to survive, but nothing more, the maps at that point become quite complex, which I think causes more problems. The problem is not that it is difficult, it is that for me it does not feel like a Fire Emblem game, for example FE12 is also difficult, but it is constantly giving you characters because the game knows that it is difficult, and also since some maps are somewhat complex , it gives you access to save points so you don't have to repeat those very tedious and specific parts, Conquest doesn't give you any of that and I really feel that it makes the game experience worse

2-The dragon veins seem to me an element that slows down the game and doesn't add anything other than just slowing you down more, like in the Sakura map that I find extremely boring, or the one about climbing the mountain, not to mention the one about the ninja cave and the final map, I feel that the game has very poorly designed maps that end up making the experience boring, and if you add to that the few characters it gives you, I think the result gets worse.

3-The second generation, this works as a replacement for the classic style of giving you characters every time you advance, but for me it has a lot of problems too, since it's something you have to plan from the beginning and probably requires many characters that you don't you want to use or they won't be of much help to you in the long run, what happens if that character with whom you had rank A dies? Well, you lose the son that you had been preparing for so long, the same thing if he did not give you very good level ups and it was no longer convenient for you to take him with you, it is something that requires a lot of preparation and is not very comfortable, and personally I prefer that they give me directly the characters to depend on something like support S.

4-The skill system is full of some that have percentages, which I think already screws up the RNG too much And having to constantly check the abilities of the enemies annoys me, at least in other FE they were fewer abilities and were not as important as in Tellius and Jugdral, if receiving crits and sometimes it bothers having many enemies that use those skills makes it worse, especially in lunatic, like in the Kaden chapter that to me Apparently it has horrible mechanics with the enemies, or the chapter against Hana, the one with Ryoma, the endgame, damn I really don't find anything good about this skill system since it makes me fatal.

Maybe some maps are well designed like the port or the ship since they encourage you to make solid strategies, that's fine, but the problem is that this is FE, a game where the RNG matters a lot, where units can die , where the level ups affect a lot, there are other FE like Echoes or Holy war that follow a similar idea "give you a lot of units at the beginning but almost none in the late game" but minimal in those games like FE4, the Gen 2 is separated from the gen1, which makes it more like using the children in my opinion and also the saving system and abilities. Same case for Echoes with the sources to revive and Mila's wheel.

I don't think it's a bad game, but I would say that AS A FIRE EMBLEM GAME, it's pretty bad, if this game were from, I don't know, Advance Wars or Triangle Strategy, maybe it would be better since they are not games where units die or that It affected the rng too much, but hey, I just wanted to give my opinion on why this FE for me has a very overrated gameplay in many aspects.

I would like to know what you think. Thank you for reading

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I only played the game once on release, but I remember it well enough to agree with all points. It's not a terribly unpopular opinion to dislike Fates' gameplay. It's just that the game's defenders are still playing and talking about it, while the rest of us moved on years ago. A game like Fates is best approached with an open mind. For me though the biggest bullet point was the map design. The Kitsune forest, Wind Village, maps with a ton of Lunge Ninjas. Definitely some of the worst FE maps I've played that don't involve green units or Fog of War. 

I suppose another element, that's a bit more personal taste, is the pacing of maps. Enemies are clumped up in tight groups so that they can set up dual strikes and cheese a death out of the player. Your only sensible option is to move up exclusively with your two tanks (Corrin w/dragonstone, Effie) just a few spaces per player phase. It's slow and doesn't afford an opportunity to shake up your strategy until you hit the lunge ninjas which are the hard counter to this style of play. 

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Polemarco said:

3-The second generation, this works as a replacement for the classic style of giving you characters every time you advance, but for me it has a lot of problems too, since it's something you have to plan from the beginning and probably requires many characters that you don't you want to use or they won't be of much help to you in the long run, what happens if that character with whom you had rank A dies? Well, you lose the son that you had been preparing for so long, the same thing if he did not give you very good level ups and it was no longer convenient for you to take him with you, it is something that requires a lot of preparation and is not very comfortable, and personally I prefer that they give me directly the characters to depend on something like support S.

For Conquest specifically, I'd mention that you'd likely have to go out of your way to get the child units in a timely manner (and before enemies start promoting, which makes them much harder while not really making them more rewarding).

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The Kitsune forest, Wind Village, maps with a ton of Lunge Ninjas. Definitely some of the worst FE maps I've played that don't involve green units or Fog of War. 

I'd agree on the wind village; it's one of the worst maps in the series that isn't from Binding Blade. Hell, considering how dickish Binding Blade maps are, it'd fit right in that game.

4 hours ago, Polemarco said:

I feel that the game has very poorly designed maps that end up making the experience boring

Considering you like Binding Blade, that's a surprising complaint...

[vanguard333]

I agree that the gameplay of Fates: Conquest is not very good. I don't understand why the gameplay is highly rated.

I especially agree about the map design; when the map design works, it's fine; nothing amazing, but it very often does not work. The Kitsune map, the map with all the jars, the wind map, etc. A lot of people complain about the maps in Revelation being reliant on bad gimmicks, but Conquest has that problem as well.

[Polemarco]

Hace 8 horas, Shadow Mir dijo:

Específicamente para Conquest, mencionaría que es probable que tengas que hacer todo lo posible para obtener las unidades secundarias de manera oportuna (y antes de que los enemigos comiencen a promocionar, lo que las hace mucho más difíciles sin que realmente las haga más gratificantes).

Estoy de acuerdo con el pueblo del viento; es uno de los peores mapas de la serie que no es de Binding Blade. Demonios, considerando lo tontos que son los mapas de Binding Blade, encajaría perfectamente en ese juego.

Teniendo en cuenta que te gusta Binding Blade, es una queja sorprendente...

I think there is a big difference between liking something and ensuring that it is good. Indeed, I like Binding Blade, but I never say that its maps are the best in the franchise or that its gameplay is the best, and I don't just like it for the gameplay, That was my point describing why I don't like the gameplay of Fates (especially conquest), because I feel that sometimes its gameplay defends itself too much when for me it has many things that are quite bad (leaving aside the story and characters).

Anyway, thanks for the answer

[Polemarco]

13 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Solo jugué el juego una vez en el lanzamiento, pero lo recuerdo lo suficientemente bien como para estar de acuerdo con todos los puntos. No es una opinión terriblemente impopular que no te guste el juego de Fates. Es solo que los defensores del juego todavía están jugando y hablando de él, mientras que el resto de nosotros nos mudamos hace años. Un juego como Fates se aborda mejor con una mente abierta. Para mí, sin embargo, el punto más importante fue el diseño del mapa. El bosque Kitsune, Wind Village, mapas con una tonelada de Lunge Ninjas. Definitivamente algunos de los peores mapas FE que he jugado que no involucran unidades verdes o Niebla de guerra. 

Supongo que otro elemento, que es un gusto un poco más personal, es el ritmo de los mapas. Los enemigos se agrupan en grupos compactos para que puedan configurar ataques dobles y matar al jugador. Tu única opción sensata es subir exclusivamente con tus dos tanques (Corrin con piedra de dragón, Effie) solo unos pocos espacios por fase de jugador. Es lento y no brinda la oportunidad de cambiar tu estrategia hasta que golpeas a los ninjas de estocada, que son el duro contraataque a este estilo de juego. 

Honestly, I was surprised to hear that, I am from the Hispanic community, and here Fates is usually defended a lot because of its gameplay, I assumed that in the English community it would also be like that, that's why I assumed that mine was an "unpopular" opinion, but in turn I'm quite glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Thanks for the comment

[LoneRecon400]

As a fan of Conquest, here's how I look at these complaints: 

1: Having less characters matters less when you have more customizable units. Take Effie for example. She can go through the usual route of one shotting things as a Great Knight, but she could instead go Maid after getting Sol from marrying Arthur to make her very durable on enemy phase with 1-2 range, or she could friendship Mozu to become a kinshi to deal with maps with a lot of terrain. How you choose to use a unit matters more than what units you choose to use.

2: I feel like this a result from playing maps too passively. Playing aggressively on maps makes the game a lot more engaging, as you really have to think ahead in terms of positioning for things like shelter dancing and makes you worry about reaching one rounding benchmarks. Ninja cave is a good example of this, as if you play slow, the map takes forever and makes it easy for you to lose out on Saizo. But if you play aggressively and find out ways of how to one round them, you can easily breeze through the map without having to worry about Saizo or Poison Strike.

3: Children can be disregarded without much loss. While they can become quite powerful, they tend to be only a nice bonus more than anything else.

4: The skill system requires being proactive about the enemy you are engaging, which already happen with the harder fire emblems due to stat variation. Most skills don't matter if you one round the enemy. RNG also doesn't matter that much as there's always a way to make enemies less threatening. Like Kaden in Ch 19 on Lunatic has 18 crit, so with a Bronze weapon and a pair up, a unit only needs 6 Luck to get a 0 Crit rate from them. Or you could've instead stacked enough defense to survive taking a Crit, stack enough speed where his only attack gets blocked by the dual gauage, or attack him at range with hunters knife, etc.

I think the core of the issues you're having is trying to play without resetting at all, which results a lot of defensive play. I'd say try the game by approaching it with an aggressive strategy in mind for each map and see if it works out. Here's a good example of this.

Edited January 8, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[SnowFire]

On point one (and to a lesser extent three), think of it this way.  If you are a perfectionist, we're all gonna make it home player (which 95% players are, hence the introduction of Casual mode), then you don't need a super-wide selection of units, because you're not letting key units die as cannon fodder.  On the other hand, if you're someone who likes intense stories of the Ironman playthrough where Camilla died in Chapter 21 but I made it through anyway damnit, then having deaths *matter* is a good thing.  Some of the charm of Ironmanning is lost if losses don't really matter because hey Geitz  / Pent / Louise are totally fine and I don't care that Dorcas / Erk / Rebecca bit it.  Really it's only a concern if you stick it on Classic mode but didn't realize what you were getting into, i.e. the stressful first-time-FE7 experience, but eh, that's what Casual mode is for.

On 3, as a matter of gameplay, having to keep the parents alive is kind of the point, no?  Games are about creating a set of rules and requirements for you to get your "reward".  Players generally *hate* it if they're rewarded for failure and feel an incentive to intentionally screw up objectives for some reward (see: FE11 optional characters).  So yeah, you need to play well and keep parents alive for the reward of a paralogue + new character.  And again, per above, if you're the type who enjoys "organic storytelling" where RNG naturally creates a narrative custom to just your game roguelike style, then the story of Odin's doomed love for Elise foiled by a Wyvern Rider he couldn't escape is cool, and how Elise just married Niles on the rebound instead.

On point 2, I think the climb-a-mountain Forgotten Stair map is mostly fine (the crit rate on the rock throwers could have been toned down) if maybe favoring the balance toward fliers a little too much.  The ninja cave map is cool.  I do agree that the final map is overtuned, though, and overly favors certain "cheesy" strategies (as is the Kitsune map, which is lame and unfun yet also cheesable).

On point 4, I will point out that most percentage-based skills are restricted to bosses / named characters only.  The kitsune gimmick of untargetability + Pass is lame, yes, although I'm not sure I'd call that a skill exactly.  (I do agree that certain skills should probably be danger-flagged more intensely in the combat preview...  Vantage most notably, since you can die to an on-board trick if you're not paying attention.)

Anyway, I think you hint at it in point 4, but I do agree that the gameplay of Fates has some issues.  It's not that enemy skills are RNG, but just that "understanding" what will happen in enemy phase is harder in Fates than almost any other Fire Emblem.  This doesn't matter that much in Birthright where various deadly pair-ups and/or Ryoma can slaughter everything, but if you're playing aggressively and using offensive pair-ups (and thus forfeiting defensive pair-ups), it's very easy to have enemies stumble into a way to set up a surprise pair-up attack that does more damage than you anticipated and scores a kill.  Especially with Seal skills / Shurikens being fairly common.  Throw in enemy pair-up stat bonuses and time spent letting stat penalties slowly decay and enemies that have multiple weapons with different effective speeds...  there's a bunch of things that can require some Galaxy Brain calculations to truly understand.  That's the real complaint with Fates for me - it's just a little too complicated in its core system.

Edited January 9, 2023 by SnowFire

[Shadow Mir]

22 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

I think the climb-a-mountain Forgotten Stair map is mostly fine (the crit rate on the rock throwers could have been toned down)

Don't they have no crit chance at all?

[SnowFire]

It's been awhile, so I don't recall - I thought they did?  What definitely happened was I lost units to them and had to reload (was playing on Casual so battle saves, but it was "honest Casual" so I couldn't accept fake deaths.).

Edited January 8, 2023 by SnowFire

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

It's been awhile, so I don't recall - I thought they did?  What definitely happened was I lost units to them and had to reload (was playing on Casual so battle saves, but it was "honest Casual" so I couldn't accept fake deaths.).

I just checked, and their weapons cannot crit. Or follow up, but they're really slow anyway.

[Polemarco]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Como fanático de Conquest, así es como veo estas quejas: 

1: Tener menos personajes importa menos cuando tienes más unidades personalizables. Tomemos a Effie por ejemplo. Puede seguir la ruta habitual de disparar cosas como un Gran Caballero, pero en su lugar podría convertirse en Criada después de conseguir que Sol se case con Arthur para que sea muy duradera en la fase enemiga con un alcance de 1-2, o podría hacerse amiga de Mozu para convertirse en una kinshi para lidiar con mapas con mucho terreno. La forma en que elige usar una unidad es más importante que las unidades que elige usar.

2: Siento que esto es el resultado de jugar mapas de forma demasiado pasiva. Jugar agresivamente en los mapas hace que el juego sea mucho más atractivo, ya que realmente tienes que pensar en el futuro en términos de posicionamiento para cosas como el baile en el refugio y te hace preocuparte por alcanzar los puntos de referencia de un redondeo. Ninja cave es un buen ejemplo de esto, ya que si juegas lento, el mapa tarda una eternidad y te facilita perder a Saizo. Pero si juegas agresivamente y descubres formas de rodearlos, puedes navegar fácilmente por el mapa sin tener que preocuparte por Saizo o Poison Strike.

3: Los niños pueden ser ignorados sin mucha pérdida. Si bien pueden volverse bastante poderosos, tienden a ser solo una buena ventaja más que cualquier otra cosa.

4: El sistema de habilidades requiere ser proactivo con respecto al enemigo al que te enfrentas, lo que ya sucede con los emblemas de fuego más difíciles debido a la variación de estadísticas. La mayoría de las habilidades no importan si rodeas al enemigo. RNG tampoco importa tanto, ya que siempre hay una manera de hacer que los enemigos sean menos amenazantes. Al igual que Kaden en el capítulo 19 de Lunatic tiene 18 críticos, por lo que con un arma de bronce y un par, una unidad solo necesita 6 Suerte para obtener una tasa de 0 críticos de ellos. O podrías haber acumulado suficiente defensa para sobrevivir al recibir un Crit, acumular suficiente velocidad donde su único ataque es bloqueado por el doble calibre, o atacarlo a distancia con un cuchillo de cazador, etc.

Creo que el núcleo de los problemas que tienes es tratar de jugar sin reiniciar, lo que resulta en mucho juego defensivo. Yo diría que probar el juego acercándolo con una estrategia agresiva en mente para cada mapa y ver si funciona. Aquí hay un buen ejemplo de esto.

In a certain way I understand several of the points that Conquest has great maps, one in which I do agree is the Takumi map (the one in the first one) that requires you to play aggressively due to the amount of enemies it throws at you, in fact that map if i enjoy playing it. 

My problem would come more from the chapter when you get Xander onwards.

The maps are designed to be played in a very…perfect way? In other words, I understand playing aggressive but sometimes I also feel that I can't afford almost any mistakes, and the fact of constantly restarting is what ends up taking away my desire to continue, of course I'm not saying that the game has to give you 15 divine pulses, but I don't really enjoy the opposite either, being very specific and closed.

I don't mind restarting, but rather than being wrong, the ideology of the game is not for me, since FE12, for example, I enjoy it a little more because I feel that despite being difficult, I don't feel so "limited" since the save points and new units make me enjoy it more

Anyway, thanks for explaining it to me.

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Rocks can not critical (like, hardcoded not to). They are certainly dangerous because of their incredible range and power, and controlling them is pretty much what the dragon veins are primarily for in that fight, but they're very fair.

18 hours ago, Polemarco said:

Hello people, I would like to talk about a topic that always leaves me thinking, the gameplay of Fates (especially conquest), Every time I heard about Fates before playing it, they always told me the same thing, "the conquest gameplay is the best in the entire saga", And well, after having replayed it a couple of times, I have always felt it was highly overrated since it has many things that I consider somewhat wasted and I wanted to comment on them.

Every Fire Emblem does different things, and you're not the only one who doesn't care for Conquest's gameplay. Personally I think it's great, and obviously a lot of others agree, but you don't need to feel obligated to have a majority opinion on things. I love the map design, but if you don't, there's probably not much I (or others) can say to convince you.

I do think Snowfire's post addresses points 1 and 3 well, though. Regardless of what style of playthrough you do in terms of accepting deaths, I think you should be able to make Conquest work for you. Causal allows access to infinite in-battle saves if you want to mimic the turnwheel of later games. Personally Conquest is one of the only FEs I have done a no-reset run for, just because I feel like it's one of the best FEs at making me feel like I own my own losses (e.g. it doesn't have same-turn reinforcements or fog of war).

[Polemarco]

Hace 47 minutos, SnowFire dijo:

Un punto uno (y en menor medida tres), piénsalo de esta manera. Si eres un perfeccionista, vamos a convertirlo en un jugador local (que es el 95% de los jugadores, de ahí la introducción del modo Casual), entonces no necesitas una selección súper amplia de unidades, porque no estás dejando unidades clave mueren como carne de cañón. Por otro lado, si eres alguien a quien le gustan las historias intensas del juego Ironman donde Camilla murió en el Capítulo 21, pero lo logré de todos modos, maldita sea, entonces tener muertes *importa* es algo bueno. Parte del encanto de Ironmanning se pierde si las pérdidas realmente no importan porque hey Geitz / Pent / Louise están totalmente bien y no me importa que Dorcas / Erk / Rebecca lo muerdan.Realmente solo es una preocupación si lo pones en el modo Clásico pero no te diste cuenta de en lo que te estabas metiendo, es decir

En 3, como cuestión de juego, tener que mantener a los padres con vida es el objetivo, ¿no? Los juegos consisten en crear un conjunto de reglas y requisitos para que obtengas tu "recompensa". Los jugadores generalmente *odian* si son recompensados por fallar y sienten un incentivo para estropear intencionalmente los objetivos para obtener alguna recompensa (ver: opcionales FE11). Entonces, sí, debes jugar bien y mantener a los padres con vida para obtener la recompensa de un parálogo + un nuevo personaje.Y nuevamente, según lo anterior, si eres del tipo que disfrutas de la "narración orgánica" donde RNG crea naturalmente una narrativa personalizada solo para tu estilo roguelike de juego, entonces la historia del amor condenado de Odin por Elise frustrado por un Wyvern Rider que no pudo escapar es genial, y cómo Elise acaba de casarse con Niles en su lugar.

En el punto 2, creo que el mapa de la escalera olvidada de escalar una montaña está bastante bien (la tasa de crítico en los lanzadores de rocas podría haber atenuado) si tal vez favorece demasiado el equilibrio hacia los voladores. El mapa de la cueva ninja es genial. Sin embargo, estoy de acuerdo en que el mapa final está exagerado y favorece demasiado ciertas estrategias "cursis" (como lo es el mapa de Kitsune, que es tonto y poco divertido, pero también cursi).

En el punto 4, señalaré que la mayoría de las habilidades basadas en porcentajes están restringidas solo a jefes/personajes con nombre. El truco kitsune de la imposibilidad de apuntar + Pase es tonto, si, aunque no estoy seguro de llamarlo exactamente una habilidad. (Estoy de acuerdo en que ciertas habilidades probablemente estarán marcadas como peligrosas más intensamente en la vista previa del combate... Vantage más decididamente, ya que puedes morir por un truco a bordo si no estás prestando atención).

De todos modos, creo que lo insinúas en el punto 4, pero estoy de acuerdo en que la jugabilidad de Fates tiene algunos problemas. No es que las habilidades enemigas sean RNG, sino que "comprender" lo que sucederá en la fase enemiga es más difícil en Fates que en casi cualquier otro Fire Emblem. Esto no importa mucho en Birthright donde varias parejas mortales y/o Ryoma pueden acabar con todo, pero si juega agresivamente y usas parejas ofensivas (y por lo tanto pierdes parejas defensivas), es muy fácil hacer que los enemigos encuentren una forma de preparar un Ataque sorpresa en pareja que haga más daño del que esperaba y consiga una muerte. Especialmente con las habilidades Seal / Shurikens que son bastante comunes.Agregue bonificaciones de estadísticas de emparejamiento de enemigos y tiempo dedicado a dejar que las penalizaciones de estadísticas decaigan lentamente y enemigos que tienen múltiples armas con diferentes velocidades efectivas... hay un montón de cosas que pueden requerir algunos cálculos de Galaxy Brain para comprender realmente. Esa es la verdadera queja de Fates para mí: es un poco demasiado complicado en su sistema central.

In fact, I think that if you explained it well, when I was arguing that the units die and they give you so few, it is especially because of that last thing you said, how complex it becomes to understand the game, sometimes I feel that it makes you unable to make mistakes and you have to be perfect when playing. I think that is precisely what makes me not want to continue playing a bit, in part I understand (and sometimes I like) having to make a super exact strategy to pass a map, but other times it makes me very desperate that for a little thing that goes wrong everything is ruined and I have to start over

In the aspect of how to pass the maps it is fine, but I think that they are simply incapable of adapting to that ideology, or if I want to play in ironman mode it is also impossible for me (which annoys me since playing in ironman mode is the most I enjoy).

Thank you for taking the time to explain it.

 

[Polemarco]

15 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Las rocas no pueden ser críticas (como, codificadas para no hacerlo). Sin duda, son peligrosos debido a su increíble alcance y poder, y controlarlos es más o menos para lo que sirven principalmente las venas del dragón en esa pelea, pero son muy justos.

Cada Fire Emblem hace cosas diferentes, y no eres el único al que no le importa la jugabilidad de Conquest. Personalmente creo que es genial, y obviamente muchos otros están de acuerdo, pero no necesitas sentirte obligado a tener una opinión mayoritaria sobre las cosas. Me encanta el diseño del mapa, pero si a ti no te gusta, probablemente no haya mucho que yo (u otros) podamos decir para convencerte.

Sin embargo, creo que la publicación de Snowfire aborda bien los puntos 1 y 3. Independientemente del estilo de juego que hagas en términos de aceptar muertes, creo que deberías poder hacer que Conquest funcione para ti. Causal permite el acceso a infinitos guardados en batalla si quieres imitar el giro de los juegos posteriores. Personalmente, Conquest es uno de los únicos FE para los que  he  hecho una carrera sin reinicio, solo porque siento que es uno de los mejores FE para hacerme sentir que soy dueño de mis propias pérdidas (por ejemplo, no tiene refuerzos en el mismo turno o niebla de guerra).

Yes, I already began to read the answers that they are giving me, and I did not publish it because of the sense of "I want them to change my opinion", I wanted to see if someone supported my point or debated it since I was curious to meet in person that makes Conquest fans like conquest.

The problem is not the game, it's just that no matter how hard I try, its ideology doesn't work for me (although there are some parts that I do enjoy the game but there aren't many)

Thanks for the comment

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:34 PM, Polemarco said:

 

1-Despite being one of the most difficult FEs, it gives you very few playable characters, let me explain, in other FEs they always give you characters when you advance in the game, like GBA or DS, but here they give you very few and most at the beginning, which which leaves very little variety in the mid-late game, leaving you with very few alternatives if something goes wrong or someone dies, which seems to me a very bad thing for one of the most difficult FE. I know that gen2 exists, but it's not the same, after the Xander chapter I feel that it feels too monotonous, since with so little variety of characters you feel that everything has to be perfect, since the maps demand a lot but give few resources, of course they give you enough to survive, but nothing more, the maps at that point become quite complex, which I think causes more problems. The problem is not that it is difficult, it is that for me it does not feel like a Fire Emblem game, for example FE12 is also difficult, but it is constantly giving you characters because the game knows that it is difficult, and also since some maps are somewhat complex , it gives you access to save points so you don't have to repeat those very tedious and specific parts, Conquest doesn't give you any of that and I really feel that it makes the game experience worse

There are parts of Conquest that people tend to forget about or ignore a lot, and multiple of those mechanics can be a away out of this problem. The first of which is that you can capture enemies to fill out your ranks, and replace dead units. Now that is limited by needing to use Niles, the prison building, and by what enemies you face, but you can get some really solid generics (and even a few named bosses) to fill out the ranks. In a similar vein there is the option of purchasing unit from the logbook, or from the EInherjar shop. Plus, generations 2 does work fairly well as a means of replacement, as long as you are willing to lock in some S supports, as once the S support has been seen neither of the parents need to survive to start the paralogue (although some might be needed to recruit the kid within)

 

On 1/7/2023 at 5:34 PM, Polemarco said:

 

3-The second generation, this works as a replacement for the classic style of giving you characters every time you advance, but for me it has a lot of problems too, since it's something you have to plan from the beginning and probably requires many characters that you don't you want to use or they won't be of much help to you in the long run, what happens if that character with whom you had rank A dies? Well, you lose the son that you had been preparing for so long, the same thing if he did not give you very good level ups and it was no longer convenient for you to take him with you, it is something that requires a lot of preparation and is not very comfortable, and personally I prefer that they give me directly the characters to depend on something like support S.

I will point out that you can grind out supports in castle battles with no risk, even on units you don't generally intend to use. If that S support was something you wanted, you could have had it safely at any time between chapters.

 

On 1/7/2023 at 5:34 PM, Polemarco said:

 

2-The dragon veins seem to me an element that slows down the game and doesn't add anything other than just slowing you down more, like in the Sakura map that I find extremely boring, or the one about climbing the mountain, not to mention the one about the ninja cave and the final map, I feel that the game has very poorly designed maps that end up making the experience boring, and if you add to that the few characters it gives you, I think the result gets worse.

I see the DVs of Sakura's map giving you a lot of choice for how you want to approach various parts of the map. Intentionally ignoring, or using DV lets you control the terrain in a way where you can create advantageous choke points, or face dangerous enemies without as many enemies to support them, or even get the drop on enemies you otherwise would not be able to without the DVs. There is even the option to pair-up to deploy all left, thus rendering all the DV useless, but letting your concentrated forces to just deal with half the map. I don't think I have had a run where the Sakura map has really played the same way twice thanks to those DVs changing the shape of the map. Admittedly I have only done the all left method once, as ignoring the DVs makes that map very samey. I see the Ninja Cave ones working in a similar way, although I tend to play it a lot more by ear, using it to limit the directions enemies can stream through in a more controlled manor, or letting me engage only range enemies intentionally.

 

On 1/7/2023 at 5:34 PM, Polemarco said:

 

4-The skill system is full of some that have percentages, which I think already screws up the RNG too much And having to constantly check the abilities of the enemies annoys me, at least in other FE they were fewer abilities and were not as important as in Tellius and Jugdral, if receiving crits and sometimes it bothers having many enemies that use those skills makes it worse, especially in lunatic, like in the Kaden chapter that to me Apparently it has horrible mechanics with the enemies, or the chapter against Hana, the one with Ryoma, the endgame, damn I really don't find anything good about this skill system since it makes me fatal.

The older skill systems tended to be more RNG based from what I remember (especially Tellius...), its more that Fates is one of the few games where you deal with enemy skills much at all. Having to deal with skills is a different mindset to get into, but Fates gives you a lot of tools to deal with such things, from guaranteed ignored attacks with the Guard Gauge, or the high variance of offensive or defensive benchmarks you can reach with positional support skills, rallies, pairups, or attack stance hits.

 

[starburst]

On 1/8/2023 at 5:42 PM, Polemarco said:

[...] when I was arguing that the units die and they give you so few, it is especially because of that last thing you said, how complex it becomes to understand the game, sometimes I feel that it makes you unable to make mistakes and you have to be perfect when playing. I think that is precisely what makes me not want to continue playing a bit, in part I understand (and sometimes I like) having to make a super exact strategy to pass a map, but other times it makes me very desperate that for a little thing that goes wrong everything is ruined and I have to start over

[...] if I want to play in ironman mode it is also impossible for me (which annoys me since playing in ironman mode is the most I enjoy).

Conquest plays like a puzzle game. It has multiple, colourful solutions, but one is not supposed to let it develop by itself. Your units will die if you do not read.

I can understand why you do not like it. I, on the other hand, realised that Conquest is the reason why I do not like Fire Emblem as a whole, most games do not play like it. 🙃

I do not want the games to be difficult just because, and enjoy Hard Conquest way more than Lunatic Conquest, but I do want to feel the thrill of finding a solution to a situation. And this feeling is something that no other Fire Emblem game that I have tried has evoked. In many games, one trains units, then let the enemies suicide on them on Enemy Phase and advance. Where is the joy?!

Edited February 5, 2023 by starburst

[Emerson]

Honestly when it comes to critical discussion of it, I've soured on Conquest a bit myself over the last year or so. Fates as a whole has a plethora of great ideas in it's gameplay, but a lot of letdown in execution. The weapon system, the reclass system, they all function fine but really have very notable flaws, ones I think the series is now addressing going forward and using Fates as a stepping stone to better gameplay systems.
It's kinda funny because I basically just say this exact thing about most of Fates' content lmao

One of the biggest things though is realizing how many CQ maps I just... don't enjoy to any degree, and dread having to slog through on replay. 17, 19, 20, the latter half of 23, 26... it's a solid chunk of the lategame that just feels unfun or is just notably poorly designed. I'll forever cite Kitsune Forest as probably the worst designed FE map ever. Just because you can pair up Corrin behind Effie/Wyvern Xander and use a Beast Killer to clear the map easily doesn't make it any better design wise. At least Wind has SOMETHING going on, regardless of how chaotic it's design is.

On 1/8/2023 at 12:42 PM, Polemarco said:

In the aspect of how to pass the maps it is fine, but I think that they are simply incapable of adapting to that ideology, or if I want to play in ironman mode it is also impossible for me (which annoys me since playing in ironman mode is the most I enjoy).

Yeah that's extremely understandable. Awakening, and by extension Fates, really leaned into the individual characteristics of units as well as reducing the amount of overlap between roles of units of the same Class (Effie and Benny being very key examples, Arthur and Charlotte too). While Ironman playthroughs are certainly still possible, it's a very, very different game from the series prior to Awakening by design, and as such suffers in that regard. FE from Awakening onward feels as though it's designed with Casual Mode primarily in mind, for better or worse.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Emerson

[starburst]

15 hours ago, Emerson said:

One of the biggest things though is realizing how many CQ maps I just... don't enjoy to any degree, and dread having to slog through on replay. 17, 19, 20, the latter half of 23, 26... it's a solid chunk of the lategame that just feels unfun or is just notably poorly designed. I'll forever cite Kitsune Forest as probably the worst designed FE map ever. Just because you can pair up Corrin behind Effie/Wyvern Xander and use a Beast Killer to clear the map easily doesn't make it any better design wise. At least Wind has SOMETHING going on, regardless of how chaotic it's design is.

Chapter 17 is so slow paced that one can use it to get new abilities in alternate classes. Just go counter-clock wise. One only needs about 20 Defence to sustain Enemy Phases against the ninjas. It does demand more healing on Lunatic.

The key to Chapter 19 is Elise, she trivialises it. Do a cross formation with her at the centre, and most units can survive the fox assaults. From +Mag Nohr Noble Cornflakes to anything Silas, Heroes, wyverns, Paladins, Great Knights, Dark Knights, Wolfssegners, Sniper Mozu, Mechanist Anna... Drink tonics and eat healthy.

Chapter 20 is not transparent as to where your units would end up after the winds, and that is a design error. But it can also be super short! One can literally complete it in like six turns just by heading east; all winds take you directly into Fuga's Pimp Penthouse on purpose.

Chapter 23 is difficult, but I do not see its glaring issue. Are you referring to the particular enemy position of Lunatic?

The lower part of Chapter 26 is one of the few areas that demand capable, trained front-liners. Then again, Hero Silas and +Mag Nohr Noble Cornflakes always do the trick, and so does any Wyvern Lord. I have used Wolfssegners Velouria and Shigure, or Paladins there, but they require more bonuses and more healing. And you can always retreat to the corridor and let the chasing Generals and Berserkers be attacked by your other units.
I usually skip the western part. Not because I cannot complete it, but because the Spy weapon is not worth it.

I am not saying that these are the best maps, but I do not understand the hate. I do enjoy Chapter 23.
I, for example, have always had way more difficulties with Chapter 21 than with any other map (other than Lunatic's Endgame, fuck that!)

Edited February 6, 2023 by starburst

[Emerson]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, starburst said:

Chapter 17 is so slow paced that one can use it to get new abilities in alternate classes. Just go counter-clock wise. One only needs about 20 Defence to sustain Enemy Phases against the ninjas. It does demand more healing on Lunatic.

17 was a typo lmao 17 I've always had no issue with actually, Xander literally just trivializes the entire map as long as you pay attention to which enemies have Lunge. Getting the Calamity Gates from Ophelia's Paralogue helps any mages contribute well too.

On 2/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, starburst said:

The key to Chapter 19 is Elise, she trivialises it. Do a cross formation with her at the centre, and most units can survive the fox assaults. From +Mag Nohr Noble Cornflakes to anything Silas, Heroes, wyverns, Paladins, Great Knights, Dark Knights, Wolfssegners, Sniper Mozu, Mechanist Anna... Drink tonics and eat healthy.

19 is not difficult, I've never had issues actually clearing it. It's just how terribly designed it is and unfun to actually do any strategy besides just turtling, as you said, or lowmanning.

An entire map full of a single, high evasion enemy type, all (maybe its not all of them but its MOSt of them) of which being Cavalry effective in a route where a good few of your best options for a lot of things are cavalry, alongside a map design where 90% of the tiles are Forest tiles, increasing their evasion even further, alongside a gimmick of literally being unable to target specific enemies on a turn by turn basis that's done in a way where you cannot target them on Player Phase but they can immediately attack you on Enemy Phase...
It's not difficult, it's super easy to just slap the Beast Killer on someone like I said and rout. The problem is there's no actually enjoyable way to go through this map unless you genuinely enjoy sitting in a specific defensive formation and pressing end turn for half an hour.

Elise is also probably the worst character to bring to this map due to the open terrain, majority of enemies with Cav effectiveness and/or Life and Death, not to mention if you don't do the specific all-sides defensive formation you mentioned, she'll be eviscerated anyways because enemies on Hard and Lunatic have Pass too, over HALF of them on Lunatic even. And while in theory this isn't the worst to deal with, you still have their evasion, forest tiles, AND illusion gimmicks making taking down the specific threats that you might otherwise be able to handle before they reach your more fragile units either very inconsistent, or actively impossible.

It's not a DIFFICULT map, not at all, even just reclassing Xander to Wyvern solves the entire map, it's just an unfun slog and extremely poorly designed.

On 2/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, starburst said:

Chapter 20 is not transparent as to where your units would end up after the winds, and that is a design error. But it can also be super short! One can literally complete it in like six turns just by heading east; all winds take you directly into Fuga's Pimp Penthouse on purpose.

While in theory that's fine, this map also has actual rewards scattered about and wants you to actually go out and collect them, including one of the very few Rescue staves in CQ, 10k Gold which is a more limited resource in CQ, and the only Dragonstone+ in the entire route. Actively trying to play through this map normally requires either preplanning a flier heavy team that can ferry your units around, which while not entirely unreasonable (unlike Ch 19 basically banning Cavalry to not have to turtle) due to some easy reclasses for characters like Xander, it does make it frustrating alongside the inability to consistently position your units. Not to mention the multitude of Bow users on this map, seemingly put there specifically to prevent you from cheesing your way through the gimmick.

If the wind was on a smaller cycle, it may have been less frustrating as you could plan out moves a bit easier without being forced to look up online resources, but as is the cycle is a 6 turn cycle which makes it awkward to utilize the wind meaningfully as well. It doesn't help that the actual placement of the wind currents don't have any real rhyme or reason for when and where they happen, no consistent pattern to make use of. I don't even think the wind gimmick is a terrible idea but there needs to be more ways for the player to deal with it besides just having half your team be fliers, looking up a guide to turn order online, or just quick clearing the map and ignoring the actually valuable chests.

On 2/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, starburst said:

Chapter 23 is difficult, but I do not see its glaring issue. Are you referring to the particular enemy position of Lunatic?

It's basically just the final room, the final room is a horror to try and get through. The enemy placements and density in such a small space is just not fun.

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:32 AM, Emerson said:

I'll forever cite Kitsune Forest as probably the worst designed FE map ever.

Honestly, I'd consider that map far better designed than like half of Binding Blade's maps AT LEAST. I kid you not. Also, 24x in Thracia.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Emerson]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I'd consider that map far better designed than like half of Binding Blade's maps AT LEAST. I kid you not. Also, 24x in Thracia.

Nah, I don't think so. Even Arcadia is closer to Wind Hell honestly, the map heavily restricts movement (Sand for Arcadia, winding pathways for CQ20), there's an incentive to rush the boss asap (for Arcadia it's the Gaiden, for Wind Hell it's escaping the hell) but the quick clear for both is challenged by the fact you have optional rewards scattered about the map, and both have you rushed by fliers that are consistently able to outmaneuver you due to the terrain. The main difference is that Arcadia has FoW (and also an escort but its not that bad tbh) while CQ20 has the wind gimmick. Both of which, coincidentally, can be trivialized by using online resources to see how to get around them (but in terms of actual design it's a heavy negative to both).
Regardless of how frustrating the design of those are, they're still DESIGNED.

Kitsune Lair quite literally feels like they wanted to make a chapter for the Kitsune, came up with a gimmick, had absolutely no idea how to make it fun, and then said "fuck it" and just barfed up a bland as shit map with 0 real structure alongside scattering enemies about with no regard to how the gimmick system works, and then when it came to making the Hard/Lunatic versions they just gave a ton of them Pass to make positioning impossible and Life and Death to make it so you have to rely on turtling/lowmanning even more.
There's not even an incentive to like, kill the boss quickly, or go for treasure, or literally anything other than routing 37 enemies that you can only even target every other turn.

There's at least a clear intended strategy for the other two maps that isn't just hunkering down and letting enemies slowly come to you, even if they're annoyingly player unfriendly. Kitsune Lair is just designed by someone who has absolutely no idea how to design a Fire Emblem map in the slightest.

It's a case where at least, for me, I'd rather see a map designed poorly than a map that's basically not designed at all.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Emerson

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Emerson said:

Nah, I don't think so. Even Arcadia is closer to Wind Hell honestly, the map heavily restricts movement (Sand for Arcadia, winding pathways for CQ20), there's an incentive to rush the boss asap (for Arcadia it's the Gaiden, for Wind Hell it's escaping the hell) but the quick clear for both is challenged by the fact you have optional rewards scattered about the map, and both have you rushed by fliers that are consistently able to outmaneuver you due to the terrain. The main difference is that Arcadia has FoW (and also an escort but its not that bad tbh) while CQ20 has the wind gimmick. Both of which, coincidentally, can be trivialized by using online resources to see how to get around them (but in terms of actual design it's a heavy negative to both).
Regardless of how frustrating the design of those are, they're still DESIGNED.

Kitsune Lair quite literally feels like they wanted to make a chapter for the Kitsune, came up with a gimmick, had absolutely no idea how to make it fun, and then said "fuck it" and just barfed up a bland as shit map with 0 real structure alongside scattering enemies about with no regard to how the gimmick system works, and then when it came to making the Hard/Lunatic versions they just gave a ton of them Pass to make positioning impossible and Life and Death to make it so you have to rely on turtling/lowmanning even more.
There's not even an incentive to like, kill the boss quickly, or go for treasure, or literally anything other than routing 37 enemies that you can only even target every other turn.

There's at least a clear intended strategy for the other two maps that isn't just hunkering down and letting enemies slowly come to you, even if they're annoyingly player unfriendly. Kitsune Lair is just designed by someone who has absolutely no idea how to design a Fire Emblem map in the slightest.

It's a case where at least, for me, I'd rather see a map designed poorly than a map that's basically not designed at all.

That wasn't even what I was talking about (or rather, it wasn't what first came to mind). It's the gaiden maps with their shitty gimmicks that are just there to be as dickish as humanly possible (except for the first, which instead has a dickishly unfair boss). Oh, and all the Sacae maps. Not to mention the Klein and Thea chapters. 

[Mordred]

I understand disliking FE Conquest, enjoying a game is completely subjective after all.  Fe Conquest feels a lot more like a puzzle game compared to other FEs so I can understand disliking it.  Coming from SMT as a kid with choosing what demons to beat boss walls FE Conquest really appealed to me in the aspect of finding what answers what map.  At least I think that's why I enjoyed FE Conquest so much lol.  Cool to read other people's opinions on the game.

[starburst]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:31 AM, Emerson said:

17 I've always had no issue with actually, Xander literally just trivializes the entire map

I do not even use the pre-promoted royals and Chapter 17 is still easy. Paladins, Heroes, Great Knights, Generals, Vanguards, Wyvern Lords… basically any front-liner does the trick. Positioning is more important than Defence itself. Snipers and Bow Knights kill ninjas at will through the walls.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 7:37 AM, Emerson said:

then when it came to making the Hard/Lunatic versions they just gave a ton of them Pass to make positioning impossible and Life and Death to make it so you have to rely on turtling/lowmanning even more.
There's not even an incentive to like, kill the boss quickly, or go for treasure, or literally anything other than routing 37 enemies that you can only even target every other turn.

And I completely agree with this. Chapter 19 is a boring, slow-paced map. This is how I feel about Four Houses. 🤭

 

On 2/8/2023 at 3:31 AM, Emerson said:

It doesn't help that the actual placement of the wind currents don't have any real rhyme or reason for when and where they happen, no consistent pattern to make use of. I don't even think the wind gimmick is a terrible idea but there needs to be more ways for the player to deal with it besides just having half your team be fliers, looking up a guide to turn order online, or just quick clearing the map and ignoring the actually valuable chests.

It may be that I only use ten units per map, but what you describe does not reflect my experience of Chapter 20 (over twenty campaigns with diverse parties.)

The winds are always shown one turn before they affect the units, and their directions are colour coded. Wherever your units are at any given turn, you know beforehand in which direction they would go and which enemies they would face. Even if you make no sense of the wind pattern, you always know the current direction, giving you a chance to move your units out of the currents or plan for the following Enemy Phase or make appropriate pairings or to kill the currently-menacing enemies…

Again, this may be more cumbersome with larger parties whose units are scattered across the map, but my party of ten marches relatively tight and clears the map and chests in twenty or so turns.

 

On 2/8/2023 at 3:31 AM, Emerson said:

It's basically just the final room, the final room is a horror to try and get through. The enemy placements and density in such a small space is just not fun.

Chapter 23: head east of the wall, then take the stairs. The Snipers is the only group of enemies that will face you on Enemy Phase. The other two teams are placed with the exact separation so that you can always kill each of them in a single Enemy Phase (using ten units.)
How hard do these teams hit? I do not know, they never have an Enemy Phase to show it.

All in all, I understand your complains about Conquest. I still enjoy the majority of it. ☺️