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What if Warp didn't work on Marth?


Jotari
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Uhhhh. Warp in the DS games. What's up with it? They give you a 7 use warp staff that can be used with a low staff rank at basically the start of the game and then three more throughout. What are you expected to do with them? Do they want you to warp skip the game? Because they give you the means to, but just expecting you to skip the game is, like, awful chapter design (looking at you too Thracia, though at least you need to work for those warp staves). And, I guess they kind of know that, because in New Mystery they intentionally remove all warp access in higher difficulty levels. But that kind of screws things up too, as you can't get access to Tiki's secret shop or the Aum staff. So no fun being a wyvern or reviving anyone Medeus eats. Warp in these two games simultaneously feels like it's a really integral, intentional part of them, while at the same time being not considered at all.

So, it makes me thing of a solution, a non "Just get rid of it entirely" solution that New Mystery went with. And the obvious solution to me is that you simply can't use Warp on Marth. You can't warp skip if you can't warp the lord, since every chapter save the final ones are seize. But, if we did have this hypothetical limitation, how would Warp be primarily used? Suddenly it's a lot less vital a resource, you don't need to save it for warp skipping the final chapters (when game fatigue sets in). I think it would still be a useful asset for the Wooden Cavalry, killing the boss without approaching him would definitely be a boon on the map. Likewise, if you don't have a promoted Shiida, warping her to Jake rather than rigging a miss or grinding to promotion would be a useful use of warp.

Anyway, yeah, I was just thinking how this would change up the game. I guess this is a pretty easy self imposed challenge, but I still would have liked for it to have actually been factored into the game.

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54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They give you a 7 use warp staff that can be used with a low staff rank at basically the start of the game and then three more throughout.

It's a thing of beauty, I tell you.

Honestly, I think the real solution would just be to have map objectives which aren't seize, but that's obviously not an option for something like Shadow Dragon. I like having goofy options rather than "standardizing" the rough edges and exploits in earlier titles to match with newer ones. Plus, abundant access to Warp almost makes casual warp-skipping less central to its use, since you will probably walk through enemies anyway and have extra uses to spare on other things.

New Mystery taking it away on higher difficulties has been reviled by many, and while I think making it so the staff doesn't work on Marth is weird and kinda dumb, it would be preferable to not having access to it at all. At the same time, it feels like a very awkward fix to a problem that isn't really a problem anymore than having units that are better than others is.

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1 minute ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

It's a thing of beauty, I tell you.

Honestly, I think the real solution would just be to have map objectives which aren't seize, but that's obviously not an option for something like Shadow Dragon. I like having goofy options rather than "standardizing" the rough edges and exploits in earlier titles to match with newer ones. Plus, abundant access to Warp almost makes casual warp-skipping less central to its use, since you will probably walk through enemies anyway and have extra uses to spare on other things.

New Mystery taking it away on higher difficulties has been reviled by many, and while I think making it so the staff doesn't work on Marth is weird and kinda dumb, it would be preferable to not having access to it at all. At the same time, it feels like a very awkward fix to a problem that isn't really a problem anymore than having units that are better than others is.

I genuinely think it is a problem. You can outright remove ten chapters of the game by warping Shiida in with a forged win spear and then warping Marth to seize. 1 turn clears are cool and all, but it's not something that takes any intelligence to come up with. And you get so many of them it's not like it's an emergency option or something you need to conserve. It's basically a skip chapter button. I feel this is unlike Thracia, which is the thing of beauty, wherein, as I said, you have to actively work to get warp staves, they're lower use so there's more research management, the more varied objectives and sub objective make them a less simple all purpose get out of chapter free switch.

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15 hours ago, Jotari said:

genuinely think it is a problem. You can outright remove ten chapters of the game by warping Shiida in with a forged win spear and then warping Marth to seize.

IMO the "obvious" answer, at least to me, is to just make it so that a "just Warped/Rescued" unit isn't able to act again. They're "greyed out" for the rest of the turn, meaning they'll need need to survive an enemy phase, wherever they're getting Warped into. So while Warp can let you skip large portions of the map, it can't turn it into merely "kill the boss, take the throne".

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

I feel this is unlike Thracia, which is the thing of beauty, wherein, as I said, you have to actively work to get warp staves, they're lower use so there's more research management, the more varied objectives and sub objective make them a less simple all purpose get out of chapter free switch.

But Thracia also imposes more suffering if you choose not to warpskip. Stuff like bosses with excessive Authority stars and status staves. Either you made the right choice (and/or got lucky) a few maps ago, or else you're in for a world of pain.

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6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

IMO the "obvious" answer, at least to me, is to just make it so that a "just Warped/Rescued" unit isn't able to act again. They're "greyed out" for the rest of the turn, meaning they'll need need to survive an enemy phase, wherever they're getting Warped into. So while Warp can let you skip large portions of the map, it can't turn it into merely "kill the boss, take the throne".

That would certainly stop warp skipping, but it would also nerf Warp so much I kind of question where in the game it can best be used. When I think of a practical use of warp I think either A)A pre planned strategy to do some crazy shenanigans or B)An emergency button to get a unit to a certain place now. I guess it can still be good for B if you're planning a turn ahead or have accidentally kept a unit in danger and want to get them safe, where in other games you'd use shove or rescue. Greying them out from use also incentivizes you to actually attack with a unit first and then warp them.

Rewarp staves in Thracia also function in such away, as the unit warps themself and thus can't do anything afterwards, and, while not as useful as warp, there's definitely uses of rewarp staves in Thracia. But Thracia's maps also lend to that with enemies in isolated areas and the like that you can rewarp to. Shadow Dragons comparatively more simple design of groups of enemies moving wouldn't lend to much opportunity to use it. The one exception being the final chapter, where you could get very good use of such a style of warp to transport your best units between the different isolated sections of the chapters that you're separated from. In general, such a warp would also be very useful for getting Marth to villages immediately without stress, as most villages are in safe parts of the map.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But Thracia also imposes more suffering if you choose not to warpskip. Stuff like bosses with excessive Authority stars and status staves. Either you made the right choice (and/or got lucky) a few maps ago, or else you're in for a world of pain.

And that's what makes it feel like Warp is actually designed to be part of the game, and not something they almost put in by accident without realizing how powerful it is. Even the Reinhardt chapter, the chapter you're most encouraged to skip (other than Dandelion, but I've complained about that before), you have to consider it a bit more than just kill the boss and seize, as you'll likely want to have Olwen get her Miracle Sword (or whatever it's called) so you need to get her to speak to Reinhardt as well. It's an extra element you need to manage with.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Rewarp staves in Thracia also function in such away, as the unit warps themself and thus can't do anything afterwards, and, while not as useful as warp, there's definitely uses of rewarp staves in Thracia.

What's holding Rewarp back is the fact that only high-rank Staff users can use it to begin with. Say, how is it that we haven't gotten Warp Powder yet, as a consumable item? It exists within Tellius canon, at least, and could be a very cool resource (if they keep it rare and costly).

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That would certainly stop warp skipping, but it would also nerf Warp so much I kind of question where in the game it can best be used. When I think of a practical use of warp I think either A)A pre planned strategy to do some crazy shenanigans or B)An emergency button to get a unit to a certain place now. I guess it can still be good for B if you're planning a turn ahead or have accidentally kept a unit in danger and want to get them safe, where in other games you'd use shove or rescue. Greying them out from use also incentivizes you to actually attack with a unit first and then warp them.

Yeah, you'd want to use thrm one way or another beforehand. The limitation would be that now you can only Warp a unit to "safe" areas. That is, places on the map where they can survive for at least one enemy phase. These sometimes exist, in the form of "treasure rooms" or "secret shops". Also the village scenario you mentioned. 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Even the Reinhardt chapter, the chapter you're most encouraged to skip (other than Dandelion, but I've complained about that before), you have to consider it a bit more than just kill the boss and seize, as you'll likely want to have Olwen get her Miracle Sword (or whatever it's called) so you need to get her to speak to Reinhardt as well. It's an extra element you need to manage with.

Bold of you to assume that I

A) Had a Warp staff to use when that chapter began, and

B) Made it to the Paralogue where you get Olwen in the first place.

Like, yes, Warp is a much more limited resource here than in Shadow Dragon, which is probably "good game design". But having maps where the intended (or else, widely presumed) solution is "warpskip it" comes across as more ill-conceived than "all maps are designed to be played through, but if you want to warpskip it, then that's an option at your disposal". The former punishes players with a scenario they had no way of anticipating earlier on, whereas the latter comes across as "broken, but fair".

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2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What's holding Rewarp back is the fact that only high-rank Staff users can use it to begin with. Say, how is it that we haven't gotten Warp Powder yet, as a consumable item? It exists within Tellius canon, at least, and could be a very cool resource (if they keep it rare and costly).

Yeah, you'd want to use thrm one way or another beforehand. The limitation would be that now you can only Warp a unit to "safe" areas. That is, places on the map where they can survive for at least one enemy phase. These sometimes exist, in the form of "treasure rooms" or "secret shops". Also the village scenario you mentioned. 

Bold of you to assume that I

A) Had a Warp staff to use when that chapter began, and

B) Made it to the Paralogue where you get Olwen in the first place.

Like, yes, Warp is a much more limited resource here than in Shadow Dragon, which is probably "good game design". But having maps where the intended (or else, widely presumed) solution is "warpskip it" comes across as more ill-conceived than "all maps are designed to be played through, but if you want to warpskip it, then that's an option at your disposal". The former punishes players with a scenario they had no way of anticipating earlier on, whereas the latter comes across as "broken, but fair".

I'm not exactly defending Thracia's river chapter. I do think they went a bit insane on the leadership stars. But even if you don't have warp you can deal with it in other ways like using Blizzard to inflict sleep or berserk. If you don't have those then the chapter does at least provide a warp staff from a house within it. Shadow Dragon is definitely more fair and balanced than Thracia, but few things in life are as ridiculous and broken as Thracia, and for our sins, that is part of the appeal. Thracia is bullshit, it throws bullshit at you, but you can also steal that same bullshit and toss it right back. That's what the game is. And I have called the game out on it, in particular I've gone on record saying Dandelion is the worst designed map in the series, and I stand by that. But at the very least when you're encouraged to Warp Skip in Thracia it's a bit more involved. There are more piece you want to get into place and more obstacles to over come. It's part of the "preplanned shenanigans" I mentioned above. Shadow Dragon's Warp feels like they designed a bunch of maps that you're intended to play legitimately but then didn't realize they'd left a massive back door open that let's you ignore them from the preparations screen.

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On 1/13/2023 at 10:52 PM, Jotari said:

I genuinely think it is a problem.

I disagree.

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

That would certainly stop warp skipping, but it would also nerf Warp so much I kind of question where in the game it can best be used.

I agree.

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