The identity of a certain emblem and other matters (MAJOR SPOILERS)

[cpsy1991]

This is my first post here, so pardon me if I make any gaffes with this. Also, if the title didn't tip you off this topic includes spoilers for the very last chapter of Engage. If you haven't gotten to it, turn back now.

Spoiler

I've been trying to figure out who or what the character corresponding to the Emblem of Foundations is, with no real success. All we know about them is what Sombron told us (which isn't too reliable but it's all we have to work with), which I'll sum up below for the sake of convenience.

• A lone warrior who eschewed bonds with others, and apparently had neither followers nor an army- all of his fighting was done completely on his own.
• Said to have carried out great conquests fueled by ambition and inspired Sombron's thirst for revenge.
• Unable to speak (Perhaps due to a defective summoning? That seems relatively more probable than him being simply mute, but I could be wrong).
• Activation chant is "Burn on, Emblem of Foundations."

Other people I've asked about it think it may be Anri, but the only part of Anri's backstory that really fits with the description is his inability to marry Artemis- the rest of it may make sense if we assume he was projecting what he wanted to see onto the Emblem, but if that's really the case then theorizing about its identity becomes practically impossible. At the same time, the rest of the description doesn't seem to match any FE character at all, playable or otherwise.

It just...doesn't make sense that they'd try to build up something that's so critical to a character's motivations and is implied to be the single most powerful Emblem in existence, and then just leave it a complete and utter mystery without actually doing anything with it at all. I want to believe they'll give more hints in the Fell Xenologues or whatever they end up being called, but given how Cindered Shadows was functionally detached from the rest of 3H's plot and didn't do much to answer many of the loose threads of its main story I don't have much hope of that happening. 

Still, I can't be the only one who's bugged by not knowing this, right?

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by cpsy1991

[bookwormbabe29]

I am thinking it will be a new character if/when it is revealed. Still, if you are assuming they are mute because of the summoning, perhaps Walhart from Awakening could fit the bill. It's not LIKELY, but he did do a lot of conquering and all. Several Fire Emblem villains could fit the description if ignoring the 'mute' part. 

Personally, I'd love to see them flip the script and make it a silent RPG hero type, someone like Mark (the tactician) from Blazing Sword, who 'spoke' but we never saw/heard the words ourselves. 

[Deathcon]

My guess it will be a Emblem that we will fight in the DLC.

[Kleowi]

The Emblem of Foundations is literaly this game's Fire Emblem, and the Emblem itself is Naga.

[WindSentinel]

6 hours ago, Kleowi said:

The Emblem of Foundations is literaly this game's Fire Emblem, and the Emblem itself is Naga.

Spoiler

Well, no, because Alear is the Fire Emblem. He/She says so when they engage. Unless you mean to imply that Alear is the Emblem of Foundations? (Plausible theory, considering how Sombron's vision went hazy as he died at their feet-but the Emblem is from his world, not Elyos)

This being said, I could see Naga being this Emblem, but with the reveal of Mila and Duma being her retainers+Gotoh, Bantu, and Xane looking after Tiki for her, Naga works with others to achieve her goals no problem.

I think this emblem may be a Red Emperor, who usually works alone and trucks through people for their own gain.

Honestly, I have a feeling it's a character we haven't met yet, especially since we have no idea what world Sombron came from to begin with. After all, no other FEverse has fell dragons as a race except his and now Elyos thanks to him coming into it and having kids in the world (assuming he was born as one).

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by WindSentinel
Typos, grammar.

[cpsy1991]

53 minutes ago, WindSentinel said:

  Hide contents

Well, no, because Alear is the Fire Emblem. He/She says so when they engage. Unless you mean to imply that Alear is the Emblem of Foundations? (Plausible theory, considering how Sombron's vision went hazy as he died at their feet-but the Emblem is from his world, not Elyos)

This being said, I could see Naga being this Emblem, but with the reveal of Mika and Duma being her retainers+Gotoh, Bantu, and Xane looking after Tiki for her, Naga works with others to achieve her goals no problem.

I think this emblem may be a Red Emperor, who usually works alone and trucks through people for their own gain.

Honestly, I have a feeling it's a character we haven't met yet, especially since we have no idea what world Sombron came from to begin with. After all, no other FEverse has fell dragon's as a race except his and now Elyos thanks to him coming into it and having kids in the world (assuming he was born as one).

 

Spoiler

Even that may be pushing it. Red Emperors still lead armies and have subordinates in some form or another, even ones as antisocial and distant as Walhart or Ashnard (and since Ashnard already appears as a Fell Emblem that rules him out). Perhaps I'm reading the description Sombron gave in an overly literal way, but this Emblem sounds as if he fought completely alone in a manner I'd expect more from Doomguy than from any character in a Fire Emblem series.

While we can't rule out the possibility it's a figure native to his as yet unknown world, we have to remember that the 12 Emblems from Elyos were native to it as well (as far as we know, anyway- the question of where the Emblems came from is a mystery in its own right since it doesn't seem like Lumera or any other Divine Dragon made them apart from Alear's unusual case). I'd assume Sombron would have noticed if his kid looked exactly like his Emblem, though. 

But whoever this character is, it's baffling that we know next to nothing about them (in fact, I'm not sure if Sombron did summon him in the end; for all we know, he was just hallucinating as he died given that neither Alear nor Veyle can see the Emblem). Even more so since they apparently break so many rules about how Emblems should work (they can't leave their wielder voluntarily, they can't travel to other worlds without going inert, and with the exception of the Fell Emblems they're not villains). It could be possible that we learn more in the DLC, but since the ring conveniently vanishes as Sombron dies (and that's not supposed to happen for Emblems either, I take it) the Xenologues would need an entirely different POV character to even begin explaining anything (and since we know that you can adopt animals from the Xenologue maps, I get the feeling that's not going to happen).

Seriously, where's the logic in introducing a clearly important element like this, doing absolutely nothing with it in the end, and then not even acknowledging its existence in the epilogue? You could remove it completely from the plot and it would have no ill effect on the story as a whole (he's already got a perfectly good revenge motive, after all), but as it is the Emblem of Foundations is a Chekhov's gun that nobody remembered to fire. Fates and Awakening might have had a few rough spots in their stories, but I don't remember any of them making a mistake of this caliber.

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by cpsy1991

[WindSentinel]

3 hours ago, cpsy1991 said:

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Even that may be pushing it. Red Emperors still lead armies and have subordinates in some form or another, even ones as antisocial and distant as Walhart or Ashnard (and since Ashnard already appears as a Fell Emblem that rules him out). Perhaps I'm reading the description Sombron gave in an overly literal way, but this Emblem sounds as if he fought completely alone in a manner I'd expect more from Doomguy than from any character in a Fire Emblem series.

While we can't rule out the possibility it's a figure native to his as yet unknown world, we have to remember that the 12 Emblems from Elyos were native to it as well (as far as we know, anyway- the question of where the Emblems came from is a mystery in its own right since it doesn't seem like Lumera or any other Divine Dragon made them apart from Alear's unusual case). I'd assume Sombron would have noticed if his kid looked exactly like his Emblem, though. 

But whoever this character is, it's baffling that we know next to nothing about them (in fact, I'm not sure if Sombron did summon him in the end; for all we know, he was just hallucinating as he died given that neither Alear nor Veyle can see the Emblem). Even more so since they apparently break so many rules about how Emblems should work (they can't leave their wielder voluntarily, they can't travel to other worlds without going inert, and with the exception of the Fell Emblems they're not villains). It could be possible that we learn more in the DLC, but since the ring conveniently vanishes as Sombron dies (and that's not supposed to happen for Emblems either, I take it) the Xenologues would need an entirely different POV character to even begin explaining anything (and since we know that you can adopt animals from the Xenologue maps, I get the feeling that's not going to happen).

Seriously, where's the logic in introducing a clearly important element like this, doing absolutely nothing with it in the end, and then not even acknowledging its existence in the epilogue? You could remove it completely from the plot and it would have no ill effect on the story as a whole (he's already got a perfectly good revenge motive, after all), but as it is the Emblem of Foundations is a Chekhov's gun that nobody remembered to fire. Fates and Awakening might have had a few rough spots in their stories, but I don't remember any of them making a mistake of this caliber.

 

Spoiler

Not only do you make great points, but you're also right in that this whole thing was so, so sudden, so much so it puts AwakeningFates to shame. When he started going on about it I thought we'd at least see the Emblem, a silhouette, SOMETHING but of course not. That's for DLC, I suppose.

Honestly, a great story beat/subplot that could've been intertwined with the whole long lost siblings/abusive dad/Zephia's baby fever would've been to have Sombron abuse this lone wolf but still kind Emblem. It couldn't speak, but it was powerful enough to wander off on its own, it still cared about him if we look at the subtext of friendship and how it left only when he was safe (WHILE being red no less, which means he's born a royal fell dragon now that I reflect on this-so he's a fell dragon Medeus? A prince?), and it crossed worlds no problem.

As you said, this Emblem breaks all the rules, so imagine if the story added a few scenes here and there where Sombron finds it (this is AwakeningFates esque-"my Emblem disappeared and is literally nowhere to be found but not it is for plot reasons!" But hey, the payoff will be worth it, I can suspend my disbelief a bit lol) and enslaves it for power, abusing its care, foiling him to the heroes. He treats it not as a father/mother figure that he let in and let it protect him, but rather as an extension of his revenge plot, not seeing the blessings he had/has, which stemmed from this Emblem's kindness in the first place. So now, he not only uses his children for his own gain and doesn't foster a good family to generate the love and safety he denied himself, but now there's an extra layer of eventually shutting out and abusing one of the first friends he had in this world. Like a tragic ouroboros. Maybe he even talks to it with an affection he doesn't give Veyle-he still abuses its power, but this is just what love is to him. Control, abuse, being a means to an end for another, and since he has actual affection for this Emblem, it's still super twisted despite humanizing him.

But nah, let's just tack it on for DLC. I admit I'm not averse to DLC as some parts of some games just can't be developed until after they generate the mulah or just need more resources they didn't have during development-so if this is a springboard to that, I'll take it. But I do wish that developers/writers would MAYBE try their best to squeeze this stuff in, for that extra writing oomph. I can't say if they didn't or not, but considering how this is dumped into the last hour of the game...they probably knew that this plot point was for Extra content. Luckily for me, YT exists, and FeTube exists, so I don't have to spend a dime.

(Apologies for the wall of text. TLDR; I agree. What the hell were they thinking. I don't want to wait until DLC waves to get the full story :/)

 

[cpsy1991]

23 minutes ago, WindSentinel said:

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Not only do you make great points, but you're also right in that this whole thing was so, so sudden, so much so it puts AwakeningFates to shame. When he started going on about it I thought we'd at least see the Emblem, a silhouette, SOMETHING but of course not. That's for DLC, I suppose.

Honestly, a great story beat/subplot that could've been intertwined with the whole long lost siblings/abusive dad/Zephia's baby fever would've been to have Sombron abuse this lone wolf but still kind Emblem. It couldn't speak, but it was powerful enough to wander off on its own, it still cared about him if we look at the subtext of friendship and how it left only when he was safe (WHILE being red no less, which means he's born a royal fell dragon now that I reflect on this-so he's a fell dragon Medeus? A prince?), and it crossed worlds no problem.

As you said, this Emblem breaks all the rules, so imagine if the story added a few scenes here and there where Sombron finds it (this is AwakeningFates esque-"my Emblem disappeared and is literally nowhere to be found but not it is for plot reasons!" But hey, the payoff will be worth it, I can suspend my disbelief a bit lol) and enslaves it for power, abusing its care, foiling him to the heroes. He treats it not as a father/mother figure that he let in and let it protect him, but rather as an extension of his revenge plot, not seeing the blessings he had/has, which stemmed from this Emblem's kindness in the first place. So now, he not only uses his children for his own gain and doesn't foster a good family to generate the love and safety he denied himself, but now there's an extra layer of eventually shutting out and abusing one of the first friends he had in this world. Like a tragic ouroboros. Maybe he even talks to it with an affection he doesn't give Veyle-he still abuses its power, but this is just what love is to him. Control, abuse, being a means to an end for another, and since he has actual affection for this Emblem, it's still super twisted despite humanizing him.

But nah, let's just tack it on for DLC. I admit I'm not averse to DLC as some parts of some games just can't be developed until after they generate the mulah or just need more resources they didn't have during development-so if this is a springboard to that, I'll take it. But I do wish that developers/writers would MAYBE try their best to squeeze this stuff in, for that extra writing oomph. I can't say if they didn't or not, but considering how this is dumped into the last hour of the game...they probably knew that this plot point was for Extra content. Luckily for me, YT exists, and FeTube exists, so I don't have to spend a dime.

(Apologies for the wall of text. TLDR; I agree. What the hell were they thinking. I don't want to wait until DLC waves to get the full story :/)

 

 

Spoiler

I'm not even convinced it'll be DLC at all. It's just as likely to be another annoying unsolved (and unsolvable) mystery, like all the stuff in the Abyss Library in Three Houses that could've made for some good plotlines if they ever bothered to follow up on them (or just about anything that would've explained what the hell actually happened between Sothis and the Agarthans, really). I'd say that it could at least make good fodder for fanfics, but there is no reason why we should be doing the writers' work for them to this extent. 

And yes, your idea would be a perfectly good way of implementing the concept- but no, we just get a mystery one-man-army who Sombron still trusts enough to consider a friend despite the mystery Emblem coming off as more of a recluse whose influence and inability to talk some sense into a clearly traumatized person actively made him a broken and miserable wretch who squandered his own chances at happiness because it didn't arrive on his very specific terms. I swear, half of the FE settings don't need heroes so much as therapists. 

And at least Awakening/Fates didn't introduce their weirdness at the literal last minute. These kinds of screw-ups are always worse when it takes the form of tripping at the finish line, if you ask me. 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by cpsy1991
Seems to be some kind of weird formatting glitch on my end, trying to fix it.

[WindSentinel]

4 hours ago, cpsy1991 said:

 

  Hide contents

I'm not even convinced it'll be DLC at all. It's just as likely to be another annoying unsolved (and unsolvable) mystery, like all the stuff in the Abyss Library in Three Houses that could've made for some good plotlines if they ever bothered to follow up on them (or just about anything that would've explained what the hell actually happened between Sothis and the Agarthans, really). I'd say that it could at least make good fodder for fanfics, but there is no reason why we should be doing the writers' work for them to this extent. 

And yes, your idea would be a perfectly good way of implementing the concept- but no, we just get a mystery one-man-army who Sombron still trusts enough to consider a friend despite the mystery Emblem coming off as more of a recluse whose influence and inability to talk some sense into a clearly traumatized person actively made him a broken and miserable wretch who squandered his own chances at happiness because it didn't arrive on his very specific terms. I swear, half of the FE settings don't need heroes so much as therapists. 

And at least Awakening/Fates didn't introduce their weirdness at the literal last minute. These kinds of screw-ups are always worse when it takes the form of tripping at the finish line, if you ask me. 

 

Ugh, I could go on and on about the way 3H handled its fantasy. From the Nabateans, to the Agarthans, to the Abyss itself, everything is left ambiguous unless it feeds the main three lord's views-Edelgard's especially. As a writer myself, I too have favorite original characters, darlings that I love more than the rest, but I still have a duty to give each character and lore beat a fair examining, I can't handpick what aspects of the world I want to show to support one character's viewpoints over the others.

Sothis never having a larger form or dialogue with her children outside of Hopes despite getting her memories back and the responsibility that comes with being one of the few gods in the franchise, Rhea not being treated as a 4th lord (kind of...Seteth carries SIlver Snow when it really should've been her), The Argarthans being skipped over in a game where we play as their version of Byleth, the complicated relationship between the Abyss and the Church, all swept aside to avoid making Edelgard more complex and flawed. Fodlan has landmarks, a name, and a lot of things Fates lacked, but without the writing prowess and willingness to let Edelgard (And Claude for that matter) be just as flawed as Dimitri, it's just a wasted setting like Fateslandia.

Anyways, back on topic-I'm grateful this game gave us dragon fam drama after Tellius introduced it, Fates...botched it, but tried, and Fodlan skipped over it/didn't touch on it in Silver Snow like it should've, but Sombron was still 100% a letdown-the mystery Emblem being the cherry on top. I'm still holding on to hope for DLC explanations-FE let me down many times, but I wanna give it a chance, lol. I'm especially sad because Sombron had a chance to mix the dragon archetypes, and also foils Tiki like his own kids (as well as Medeus and Rhea) do. Just like Alear has Marth as Tiki did, he had his own lovely hero to look up to and fawn over if it wasn't corrupted (why do I get the feeling that fell dragons making Emblems evil was made JUST so Sombron can't have anyone to talk to?). And honestly? Seeing an FE villain go to therapy, or I guess in FE terms, let the protag touch their heart would be very amusing and welcome. We need a playable token evil race that ISN'T a cop out loli like Veyle, and we need at least one game where we can stop our friends and family from destroying the world from their insecurity/vulnerability.

Honestly, for all their flaws, AwakeningFates was pretty good at juggling their junk, the only bad thing being the eh stories and the super forced deaths in Fates on each route near the mid-endgames.

[cpsy1991]

21 minutes ago, WindSentinel said:

Ugh, I could go on and on about the way 3H handled its fantasy. From the Nabateans, to the Agarthans, to the Abyss itself, everything is left ambiguous unless it feeds the main three lord's views-Edelgard's especially. As a writer myself, I too have favorite original characters, darlings that I love more than the rest, but I still have a duty to give each character and lore beat a fair examining, I can't handpick what aspects of the world I want to show to support one character's viewpoints over the others.

Sothis never having a larger form or dialogue with her children outside of Hopes despite getting her memories back and the responsibility that comes with being one of the few gods in the franchise, Rhea not being treated as a 4th lord (kind of...Seteth carries SIlver Snow when it really should've been her), The Argarthans being skipped over in a game where we play as their version of Byleth, the complicated relationship between the Abyss and the Church, all swept aside to avoid making Edelgard more complex and flawed. Fodlan has landmarks, a name, and a lot of things Fates lacked, but without the writing prowess and willingness to let Edelgard (And Claude for that matter) be just as flawed as Dimitri, it's just a wasted setting like Fateslandia.

Anyways, back on topic-I'm grateful this game gave us dragon fam drama after Tellius introduced it, Fates...botched it, but tried, and Fodlan skipped over it/didn't touch on it in Silver Snow like it should've, but Sombron was still 100% a letdown-the mystery Emblem being the cherry on top. I'm still holding on to hope for DLC explanations-FE let me down many times, but I wanna give it a chance, lol. I'm especially sad because Sombron had a chance to mix the dragon archetypes, and also foils Tiki like his own kids (as well as Medeus and Rhea) do. Just like Alear has Marth as Tiki did, he had his own lovely hero to look up to and fawn over if it wasn't corrupted (why do I get the feeling that fell dragons making Emblems evil was made JUST so Sombron can't have anyone to talk to?). And honestly? Seeing an FE villain go to therapy, or I guess in FE terms, let the protag touch their heart would be very amusing and welcome. We need a playable token evil race that ISN'T a cop out loli like Veyle, and we need at least one game where we can stop our friends and family from destroying the world from their insecurity/vulnerability.

Honestly, for all their flaws, AwakeningFates was pretty good at juggling their junk, the only bad thing being the eh stories and the super forced deaths in Fates on each route near the mid-endgames.

I guess Three Hopes sort of tried to go into more detail about the Agarthans, but in a way that created problems of its own (dear god, it's like Claude was taken by the Pod People in Golden Wildfire) and didn't really tell us anything beyond "they sure do hate Sothis and the Nabateans" (as if that was a stunning new discovery). In retrospect, it did quite a bit to illustrate the critical flaw inherent in the branching storyline mechanism: splitting the story means splitting your focus, and the more directions you try to take it in the less you're able to make sure any of them are of good quality. Not to mention that the extra branches meant they ended up making all of them dependent on the same small number of maps, made even more glaring by how the first 1/3 of the game or so has the exact same maps for all of them (so by the end of the first playthrough you're already sick of even the good ones). I'd definitely prefer one or two relatively good branches over four decent to dubious ones. 

But getting off that tangent myself, Engage also makes me wonder what exactly it means to be a Fell Dragon at all- the only other one up to this point was Grima, who Echoes showed us could barely be called a dragon at all. The Fell Dragons native to Sombron's world can't be inherently evil (otherwise Alear and Veyle wouldn't ultimately end up being the heroes), but what exactly would distinguish them from any other Manakete beyond the color scheme then? 

I do agree we need an entry where we actually redeem the villain properly for a change (Binding Blade kinda did this, but on the other hand I'm not sure if Idunn counts given that she was basically brainwashed), but I'm not completely sure if the current writing team is quite cut-out for that. Plus, FE as a whole is a war story and taking the comparatively less violent approach of actually trying to get through to the bad guy doesn't really mesh with that (and to be fair, at the point Sombron was at he was a lost cause)- in which case, I have to ask why they'd try to make the main antagonist sympathetic at all. Grima's motiveless malice might actually be an improvement at this point because he at least functions as a very effective hate sink without distracting us with a contrived sob story. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by cpsy1991

[Seazas]

A game where we redeem the villain would be fun but Engage was not that game. Sombron would've been a terrible fit especially with the backstory details given. 

[B.Leu]

The common joke is that it's Kaga. My joke is that it's the player. But that would be too meta.

It's kind of like Fates' third guy that was blessed by the Rainbow Sage, but we don't know who he was, or why he is even brought up.

 

9 hours ago, WindSentinel said:

let the protag touch their heart

You must mean their Special Spots. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Kudahver]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:48 PM, Kleowi said:

The Emblem of Foundations is literaly this game's Fire Emblem, and the Emblem itself is Naga.

How can you be wrong so confidently? 

[Kudahver]

On 1/22/2023 at 12:48 PM, Kleowi said:

The Emblem of Foundations is literaly this game's Fire Emblem, and the Emblem itself is Naga.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Kudahver

[WindSentinel]

19 hours ago, cpsy1991 said:

I guess Three Hopes sort of tried to go into more detail about the Agarthans, but in a way that created problems of its own (dear god, it's like Claude was taken by the Pod People in Golden Wildfire) and didn't really tell us anything beyond "they sure do hate Sothis and the Nabateans" (as if that was a stunning new discovery). In retrospect, it did quite a bit to illustrate the critical flaw inherent in the branching storyline mechanism: splitting the story means splitting your focus, and the more directions you try to take it in the less you're able to make sure any of them are of good quality. Not to mention that the extra branches meant they ended up making all of them dependent on the same small number of maps, made even more glaring by how the first 1/3 of the game or so has the exact same maps for all of them (so by the end of the first playthrough you're already sick of even the good ones). I'd definitely prefer one or two relatively good branches over four decent to dubious ones. 

But getting off that tangent myself, Engage also makes me wonder what exactly it means to be a Fell Dragon at all- the only other one up to this point was Grima, who Echoes showed us could barely be called a dragon at all. The Fell Dragons native to Sombron's world can't be inherently evil (otherwise Alear and Veyle wouldn't ultimately end up being the heroes), but what exactly would distinguish them from any other Manakete beyond the color scheme then? 

I do agree we need an entry where we actually redeem the villain properly for a change (Binding Blade kinda did this, but on the other hand I'm not sure if Idunn counts given that she was basically brainwashed), but I'm not completely sure if the current writing team is quite cut-out for that. Plus, FE as a whole is a war story and taking the comparatively less violent approach of actually trying to get through to the bad guy doesn't really mesh with that (and to be fair, at the point Sombron was at he was a lost cause)- in which case, I have to ask why they'd try to make the main antagonist sympathetic at all. Grima's motiveless malice might actually be an improvement at this point because he at least functions as a very effective hate sink without distracting us with a contrived sob story. 

The fact that Shex's mom is implied to be a kind Agarthian (or maybe she was only kind because they have Arval in them?) and could've examined and humanized them more-I can't stand fully evil races in games, it's a cop out for the complicated mess that is a clash of ideals and what a better world looks like. However, I was wiling to give them a pass if they at least were worldbuilt up a bunch. The Abyss library teased their religion, which is a good start, but alas, nothing came of it. Even worse, there's nothing to work with, since the information we get on them is super scant. Like, not even a ficbait amount of info. I hope FE learns from this and realizes that though a split route war story is a fantastic concept, they're going to have to put in a ton of work to make it all cohesive and satisfying. Triangle Strategy is another game that tried this and honestly flops somewhat too (mostly the endings/the almost nonsensical way you get the golden route), and for the most part the way the route split is handled is stellar...so it isn't easy. I can't claim to have the key to the issue, but I would like for FE to get back to linear stories that deliver a few themes cohesively.

Anyways, as for what a "Fell" dragon is...it is a little strange to introduce this species in this game, as they don't have an archetypical appearance, power, or society like Divine Dragons do-this is fine if they wanted to add this in, but they don't show Sombron's clan, so we're in the dark, and Grima was retconned into a homunculus (the art book handwaves his origins and pulls an "oh he's a descendant of earth dragons", so I assumed during Echoe's development they changed it to this). While Sombron has Grima's horns kinda, him, Alear, and Veyle all look different. In fact, Veyle looks more like a Divine Dragon than a Fell one with her whole feather motif, Alear looked and still looks like a normal person, and the game has no manakete transformations (outside of Tiki. Great.) so we don't even know if all Fell dragons have a cobra look or what. And of course the game has the whole dragons were wiped out excuse for the reason why no dragons appear despite there being enough of a population for Sombron to mate with, so cool, another concept for the fandom to pick up the slack on.

Also, yeah. I think we need more just bad people. I DO wish we had more well done tragedies, like Lyon and Julius, but our current writers can't do that and i'll respect their strengths and...attempts? At emotion.

[WindSentinel]

13 hours ago, Seazas said:

A game where we redeem the villain would be fun but Engage was not that game. Sombron would've been a terrible fit especially with the backstory details given. 

Oh, I agree-as mentioned, the whole point is that he's a lost cause. He went down a dark path a long, long time ago, I mean, his own children's suffering/forcing him to reflect couldn't snap him out of it.

[cpsy1991]

1 hour ago, WindSentinel said:

The fact that Shex's mom is implied to be a kind Agarthian (or maybe she was only kind because they have Arval in them?) and could've examined and humanized them more-I can't stand fully evil races in games, it's a cop out for the complicated mess that is a clash of ideals and what a better world looks like. However, I was wiling to give them a pass if they at least were worldbuilt up a bunch. The Abyss library teased their religion, which is a good start, but alas, nothing came of it. Even worse, there's nothing to work with, since the information we get on them is super scant. Like, not even a ficbait amount of info. I hope FE learns from this and realizes that though a split route war story is a fantastic concept, they're going to have to put in a ton of work to make it all cohesive and satisfying. Triangle Strategy is another game that tried this and honestly flops somewhat too (mostly the endings/the almost nonsensical way you get the golden route), and for the most part the way the route split is handled is stellar...so it isn't easy. I can't claim to have the key to the issue, but I would like for FE to get back to linear stories that deliver a few themes cohesively.

Anyways, as for what a "Fell" dragon is...it is a little strange to introduce this species in this game, as they don't have an archetypical appearance, power, or society like Divine Dragons do-this is fine if they wanted to add this in, but they don't show Sombron's clan, so we're in the dark, and Grima was retconned into a homunculus (the art book handwaves his origins and pulls an "oh he's a descendant of earth dragons", so I assumed during Echoe's development they changed it to this). While Sombron has Grima's horns kinda, him, Alear, and Veyle all look different. In fact, Veyle looks more like a Divine Dragon than a Fell one with her whole feather motif, Alear looked and still looks like a normal person, and the game has no manakete transformations (outside of Tiki. Great.) so we don't even know if all Fell dragons have a cobra look or what. And of course the game has the whole dragons were wiped out excuse for the reason why no dragons appear despite there being enough of a population for Sombron to mate with, so cool, another concept for the fandom to pick up the slack on.

Also, yeah. I think we need more just bad people. I DO wish we had more well done tragedies, like Lyon and Julius, but our current writers can't do that and i'll respect their strengths and...attempts? At emotion.

Spoiler

I guess with Alear and Veyle they could make the excuse that they're only half Fell Dragon (Veyle's mother was a Mage Dragon, and we have no clue what Alear's mother was beyond it not being Lumera), but even that's kind of pushing it (and oh boy isn't it convenient that their dragonstones are either lost or destroyed, it's not like we can do a Lord that has a dragon form in...oh wait, we did do that before). Just once, would it kill them to give some actual answers without leaving any stray plot threads hanging? As long as they're going to continue their trend of having each game's setting be self-contained, they should at least make sure that no awkward questions are left over and that absolutely everything is neatly resolved. 

It seems to be a trend these days that moral ambiguity is always a positive in writing, no matter how badly done it is or how contrived it ends up coming off. What's wrong with a good old fashioned black and white conflict where one side is just irredeemably bad simply because that is what they are (as opposed to some psychological problem that boils down to having a bad father- I'm looking at you, Arvis and Zephiel)? Sure, it might not be the next Game of Thrones but at least it gives you villains that you can love to hate. 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by cpsy1991

[WindSentinel]

3 hours ago, cpsy1991 said:

  Hide contents

I guess with Alear and Veyle they could make the excuse that they're only half Fell Dragon (Veyle's mother was a Mage Dragon, and we have no clue what Alear's mother was beyond it not being Lumera), but even that's kind of pushing it (and oh boy isn't it convenient that their dragonstones are either lost or destroyed, it's not like we can do a Lord that has a dragon form in...oh wait, we did do that before). Just once, would it kill them to give some actual answers without leaving any stray plot threads hanging? As long as they're going to continue their trend of having each game's setting be self-contained, they should at least make sure that no awkward questions are left over and that absolutely everything is neatly resolved. 

It seems to be a trend these days that moral ambiguity is always a positive in writing, no matter how badly done it is or how contrived it ends up coming off. What's wrong with a good old fashioned black and white conflict where one side is just irredeemably bad simply because that is what they are (as opposed to some psychological problem that boils down to having a bad father- I'm looking at you, Arvis and Zephiel)? Sure, it might not be the next Game of Thrones but at least it gives you villains that you can love to hate. 

 

Oh, where did the information on her mother's race come from? I didn't see this in the game's files or in the cutscenes. But yes, whether we know the mom's race or not, they're only half, which means there are other dragons out there. I wish Engage went into what tribes existed on Elyos before Sombron's descent, and even after the implied slaughter of many of them-the game implies they're a race that are feared outside of divine ones (somehow? Though Veyle/Pandero's supports imply people are open to worshipping them all), but the wonky worldbuilding has made Alear and Veyle's ending look really bad to many on Twitter and YT.

Spoilers for it:

Spoiler

Veyle inherits Gradlon, brings it prosperity, and eventually founds an orphanage for children. A kind dragon child that was raised there grew up to unite the continent after Alear and Veyle's time.

However, many people read this as...uh, incest despite the game having no subtext for it like Fates, mostly because the game is very wishy washy on just how dragon tribes work (the only non royal type we see are mage/demon dragons, so I suppose there's only three tribes?), since the plot only focuses on the specific ones from 1000 years ago and not everyone is a worldbuilding nut like me, who looks at all of the implied details of the world that isn't outright said. We never get a established overview of non royals, their powers, the names of their clans etc etc (unless they do give more details and I'm missing info-feel free to correct me on anything I say.) So yeah...more questions to be left unsolved, I suppose. RIP.

And yes, I've noticed that pattern. I enjoy moral grey, but I think often it's not done well anyway, and ends up being more "straight up not a great guy but now he's somewhat human, he has family, friends, ideals and while this doesn't make his actions good it gives them context and makes him a human/feel real" and that's fine, but often the text of the work doesn't frame things this way, instead opting to paint a more sympathetic/"I had no choice, don't hate this character btw" picture, which betrays what actually happens.

This being said, I would like to see more bastards as villains again, as FE has always been a franchise about what the young, upcoming lords do with their power as they discover the world's complexities, and grow and learn from their friends and experiences. More villains that just abuse power to get their needs met and maybe manipulating a supernatural force will suffice for an FE story. A Griffith of some sort. Species change would be cool to touch on again after Fodlan shat the bed with the concept, now that Griffith and FE are melding together in my head...

[WindSentinel]

16 hours ago, B.Leu said:

The common joke is that it's Kaga. My joke is that it's the player. But that would be too meta.

It's kind of like Fates' third guy that was blessed by the Rainbow Sage, but we don't know who he was, or why he is even brought up.

Would be nice to have Kaga acknowledged in a post FE5 game, but him being sued for making Totally Not FE makes me think they Thanosed the poor guy from Intsys' records as soon as he left LOLLLL. I'd kill to see a Guts-like Emblem Kaga in game though, shout out to the man, he loves his dragon elves and European politics. He deserves an Emblem, as a treat.

If it's the player, I will scream LOLLLLL

But yeah, I think it's just more bullcrap to get us thinking a little too hard about it. Still fun to discuss though!

16 hours ago, B.Leu said:

You must mean their Special Spots. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[cpsy1991]

6 hours ago, WindSentinel said:

Oh, where did the information on her mother's race come from? I didn't see this in the game's files or in the cutscenes. But yes, whether we know the mom's race or not, they're only half, which means there are other dragons out there. I wish Engage went into what tribes existed on Elyos before Sombron's descent, and even after the implied slaughter of many of them-the game implies they're a race that are feared outside of divine ones (somehow? Though Veyle/Pandero's supports imply people are open to worshipping them all), but the wonky worldbuilding has made Alear and Veyle's ending look really bad to many on Twitter and YT.

Spoilers for it:

  Hide contents

Veyle inherits Gradlon, brings it prosperity, and eventually founds an orphanage for children. A kind dragon child that was raised there grew up to unite the continent after Alear and Veyle's time.

However, many people read this as...uh, incest despite the game having no subtext for it like Fates, mostly because the game is very wishy washy on just how dragon tribes work (the only non royal type we see are mage/demon dragons, so I suppose there's only three tribes?), since the plot only focuses on the specific ones from 1000 years ago and not everyone is a worldbuilding nut like me, who looks at all of the implied details of the world that isn't outright said. We never get a established overview of non royals, their powers, the names of their clans etc etc (unless they do give more details and I'm missing info-feel free to correct me on anything I say.) So yeah...more questions to be left unsolved, I suppose. RIP.

And yes, I've noticed that pattern. I enjoy moral grey, but I think often it's not done well anyway, and ends up being more "straight up not a great guy but now he's somewhat human, he has family, friends, ideals and while this doesn't make his actions good it gives them context and makes him a human/feel real" and that's fine, but often the text of the work doesn't frame things this way, instead opting to paint a more sympathetic/"I had no choice, don't hate this character btw" picture, which betrays what actually happens.

This being said, I would like to see more bastards as villains again, as FE has always been a franchise about what the young, upcoming lords do with their power as they discover the world's complexities, and grow and learn from their friends and experiences. More villains that just abuse power to get their needs met and maybe manipulating a supernatural force will suffice for an FE story. A Griffith of some sort. Species change would be cool to touch on again after Fodlan shat the bed with the concept, now that Griffith and FE are melding together in my head...

I can't quite recall where she mentioned it. I thought it was in one of the supports but apparently I remembered it wrong- if it was just my imagination or something, that's my mistake. And yeah, I know about the issue with Alear and Veyle's ending- I think that the implication is that it's actually Veyle under a new identity or something along those lines, but since it's never made clear (not to mention that this child isn't mentioned outside this specific ending) people jump to conclusions. Granted, my own speculation is hardly bulletproof but it's not like we'll ever get clarification there either. 

Come to think of it, I don't think any of the games went into real detail about any of the tribes save the Divine Dragons and even those aren't exactly elaborated on (for a start, are they actually gods/godlike beings or just very powerful?). 3H sort of attempted to address that, but did so in a way that produced more questions than answers (e.g., "where did Sothis come from?"). 

[fluffy2354]

Has anyone thought maybe it's Robin? With him being the fell dragon and all it could fit.

[cpsy1991]

16 minutes ago, fluffy2354 said:

Has anyone thought maybe it's Robin? With him being the fell dragon and all it could fit.

He doesn't match the "lone warrior" description, and given the evidence in the code that he'll come with Chrom's Emblem like Ephraim did with Eirika we can safely rule him out. Plus, Grima was also a Dark Emblem. 

[WindSentinel]

8 hours ago, cpsy1991 said:

I can't quite recall where she mentioned it. I thought it was in one of the supports but apparently I remembered it wrong- if it was just my imagination or something, that's my mistake. And yeah, I know about the issue with Alear and Veyle's ending- I think that the implication is that it's actually Veyle under a new identity or something along those lines, but since it's never made clear (not to mention that this child isn't mentioned outside this specific ending) people jump to conclusions. Granted, my own speculation is hardly bulletproof but it's not like we'll ever get clarification there either. 

Come to think of it, I don't think any of the games went into real detail about any of the tribes save the Divine Dragons and even those aren't exactly elaborated on (for a start, are they actually gods/godlike beings or just very powerful?). 3H sort of attempted to address that, but did so in a way that produced more questions than answers (e.g., "where did Sothis come from?"). 

Oh Engage, keep on being your wonky self. Literally the writers can't stop making themselves look bad, and they aren't even trying to!

Awakening shat the bed in the lore/worldbuilding aspect (opens up new doors, but definitely shits the bed on a lot of established concepts for the sake of nonstalgia (sideeying at Panne, Nowi, and Priam), but Naga DOES mention in the lategame that she is no god, she can't create from nothing like Sothis and Ashunera. I think that's canon/adds up, because everything we've seen from dragons implies they create from body parts, metals, magic is still used by asking spirits (Duma calls on spirits when casting spells in Echoes so we can assume even dragons borrow from spirits to do blood pacts and dragon form storing via stones too) all of that, never just making stuff from nothing.

But yeah, most games are just like, "Divine dragons are good, have green hair, and like people. The rest went insane because they're too prideful to become elves" and leaves it at that, and then games outside of Archanea just play with this base (with 3H being the most interesting way to worldbuild them imo). The FE Wiki says that in the game data for the DS games straight up call the stones "GODDESSSTONE" and the manakete class "GODDESSDRAGON_F" but I think that the Divine dragons are meant to evoke godlike presence and power (esp with Tiki's early art having feathery wings, Mila's wing hair, and Naga's ghostly look post Awakening), but not be one, especially since they can be killed.

[Kiddo]

This theory might be a buzzkill for lore enthusiasts, but I think the "Emblem of Foundations" is not meant to be a defined character, but rather a stand-in, most likely representing protagonists from 80's JRPGs like Dragon Quest, Xanadu, Ys, and Hylide.

Besides the description of the character's feats and demeanor (Silent, does quests solo, and has no attachments) matching that type of character better than any type that would fit in a SRPG, the other thing that stands out is the character being stated to be from "another world" - a strange terminology consider how most FEs feel like different settings or different timelines in and of themselves yet are all in the same "world" as defined by Awakening and Engage.

Why else would this very specific and somewhat confusing differentation be necessary for this character? If it was meant to be a future protagonist, he would be stated to be from the future. If he was meant to be Anri, Marth should know about him and they would both be in the same world. If it was an alternate timeline/dimension version of a FE character, Sombrom would have a stand-in to fulfill his desire in place of the original. No, the only explanation that would be consistent with prior established lore is something so completely outside that lore that it can't fit in... Hence, a character from a completely different game genre, franchise, and property ownership.

If we limit it to other Nintendo IP, Link in the first Legend of Zelda on NES best fits the description.

[WindSentinel]

11 hours ago, Kiddo said:

This theory might be a buzzkill for lore enthusiasts, but I think the "Emblem of Foundations" is not meant to be a defined character, but rather a stand-in, most likely representing protagonists from 80's JRPGs like Dragon Quest, Xanadu, Ys, and Hylide.

Besides the description of the character's feats and demeanor (Silent, does quests solo, and has no attachments) matching that type of character better than any type that would fit in a SRPG, the other thing that stands out is the character being stated to be from "another world" - a strange terminology consider how most FEs feel like different settings or different timelines in and of themselves yet are all in the same "world" as defined by Awakening and Engage.

Why else would this very specific and somewhat confusing differentation be necessary for this character? If it was meant to be a future protagonist, he would be stated to be from the future. If he was meant to be Anri, Marth should know about him and they would both be in the same world. If it was an alternate timeline/dimension version of a FE character, Sombrom would have a stand-in to fulfill his desire in place of the original. No, the only explanation that would be consistent with prior established lore is something so completely outside that lore that it can't fit in... Hence, a character from a completely different game genre, franchise, and property ownership.

If we limit it to other Nintendo IP, Link in the first Legend of Zelda on NES best fits the description.

You know what? Reading this over and thinking about the already meta way Engage operates, this is a really good angle. Another poster @B.Leumade a joke of it, but I think you're both more on track than the OP and I despite our long back and forth about it.

Sombron's world had it's own Emblems, but there's no rule saying Emblems are FE only, this applies only to Elyos as far as we know. In his world, Emblems could easily be classic franchise protags instead of FE ones (off topic for a second, but honestly, it would be cool to see Adol as an Emblem-he'd be super powerful, I can only imagine using his ring in a war). The JRPG is the dad of SRPG, and FE is the dad of SRPGS. So I guess in a way, Engage, being the most recent entry of the franchise and celebrating it's dad status, is making a meta commentary on how Sombron is in the wrong genre despite being in a franchise born from it. If you want to be a one man show, don't come to a Fire Emblem world to do it. SRPGS are about friends and bonds carrying us through hardship, classic JRPGs are the only worlds that support being a rugged one man army, before JRPGs evolved to be more character/bond focused when consoles began to be able to hold more data and tell bigger tales.