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PSA about Arts damage


Archeleon
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Not sure if this is mentioned somewhere in game, maybe I missed it, but Arts calculate your damage based on the average of Str and Mag. This means that Arts can be used just fine by units that are inclined towards either stat but are particularly suited for units that have a good amount of both.

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52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh wow. That's really interesting. They still exclusively target defense though, right?

Far as I can tell, they do. It says "Ph Atk" when Arts are equipped.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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3 hours ago, Archeleon said:

Not sure if this is mentioned somewhere in game, maybe I missed it, but Arts calculate your damage based on the average of Str and Mag. This means that Arts can be used just fine by units that are inclined towards either stat but are particularly suited for units that have a good amount of both.

Now if only we could get an Arts class worth going on the offense for. Though I do find them useful to break mages. 

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3 hours ago, Scaramuccia said:

I really like this option as before a 30/30 growth character felt really bad. Now they have a role for which their stats are good. 

Yes, a mixed growth unit is likely the best user of arts, but the issue is that the math on averaging your strength and magic does not work out in your favor.

Every point you gain in strength or magic is half a point added to the damage of your weapon, so your combined strength and magic score would need to be double your best individual score in order to break even, and based on how that math works, your combined damage score will never out scale which ever is your best damage score. So, a perfectly balanced stat spread would break even in the growth -> damage department, but anything else and you scale the damage more with a brave weapon. 

It is still good to carry arts on your unit to break enemies, and they also give you a physical damage option on magic unit if you run up against something with high res low def, but the way it calculates damage is interesting, but not really beneficial - and on maddening you are gonna see a lot of 0x2 damage

I really wanted arts to be good 😞

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Arts/Fisticuffs are sadly bleh this time around. Maybe if they did damage based on enemy's DEF+RES/2 as part of their damage calculation they might work out. At least then the enemy's defenses would suffer in the same way your offenses do. Or have it target DEF or RES whichever is lower(this would likely be WAY too much however). But Something. As it is they are a weapon that is auto-brave so low base MT AND they basically are going to have lower calculated offense then a character dedicated to one offense or another which sounds to me like a recipe for 0x4 damage scenes. Which I find sad because I just love uppercutting a dragon.

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On 2/1/2023 at 2:57 AM, LukeB said:

Every point you gain in strength or magic is half a point added to the damage of your weapon, so your combined strength and magic score would need to be double your best individual score in order to break even, and based on how that math works, your combined damage score will never out scale which ever is your best damage score. So, a perfectly balanced stat spread would break even in the growth -> damage department, but anything else and you scale the damage more with a brave weapon. 

This would only be true if we were comparing "average of the two offensive stats" to "better of the two offensive stats". Obviously, someone with 18 Str and 2 Mag would prefer calcing by Str alone, rather than the average. But a unit with 2 Str and 18 Mag would be in a far worse spot if Arts damage were based on Str alone.

1 hour ago, Archeleon said:

Yeah, Arts are prime targets for Roy's and Ike's engravings.

Are they? Most of them are pretty light, so I imagine you wouldn't want to lose out on the opportunity to "quad" with them. Especially when there are so many weapon types that they break, thus removing the risk from a counter-attack. I could see the value only if given to someone with high build and/or low Speed.

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A gripe I have with arts that haven't been addressed here is actually the Hit. They're all quite bad with like 70/80 and Martial Monk the only class that gets S in Arts has a Dex cap of 26... a number quite easily achievable in a normal playthrough. The potential to hit giga damage on the break targets is kinda marred by the 50% chances to hit lol

Also you'd think the masters of hand to hand combat would be faster but their speed cap is a pathetic 28 as well... 

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Actually speaking of the Martial Master class it really feels like it has some lackluster bases. And given how its growth rates are arguably worse, I think I am just gonna leave Framme in Martial Monk until I get stuff that needs her to go up or I have more seals than I know what to do with. The power bump just looks much smaller than some other base to advance changes. Combine that with the low caps on some stats(28 speed. . . really? On a class that has an extremely low mt weapon and low offense growth class?) and I just wonder what they were going for with this class.

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2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Can Speedtaker bring you beyond class/character caps? If so, that seems like something a Martial Master should want to be packing anyway. 

In my experience, everyone wabts SpeedTaker, at least on maddening where doubling can be really difficult. A +10 boost to speed is a massive game changer. Best skill in the game imo.

In regards to the whole "this means 1 point of str/mag is worth half" I say, yes, that's true. But then it doubles with the brave affect, so one point equals 1. I don't think the issue is that it dividesn I think the issue is few classes or wielders suited to this formula. As you need someone with good stats in both so one doesn't drag the other down. It seems like the idea is that its insurance so you can always deal a bit of damage no matter what the dominant stat is, but in practices its all magic users who get arts and they would much rather be using magic for actual res targeting.

Edited by Jotari
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11 hours ago, Jotari said:

In regards to the whole "this means 1 point of str/mag is worth half" I say, yes, that's true. But then it doubles with the brave affect, so one point equals 1. I don't think the issue is that it dividesn I think the issue is few classes or wielders suited to this formula. As you need someone with good stats in both so one doesn't drag the other down. It seems like the idea is that its insurance so you can always deal a bit of damage no matter what the dominant stat is, but in practices its all magic users who get arts and they would much rather be using magic for actual res targeting.

I think the low weapon mt is the brave compensation not the formula. The problem with class/wielders being suited is any growth dedicated to pushing up both stats is growths not going elsewhere so unless a class or character is getting 'free' growths in the other stat you would just be better off dumping all growth in just one and using other weapons. Like if a class had 20/20 STR/MAG and a character 30/30 they would likely be better off using axes with 40/0 STR/MAG and 60/0 growths respectively.

This isn't to say they are unusable. They give you an early game brave weapon. And once you got silver tier arts they outstrip a typical brave weapon in mt. Kinda like if typical braves were steel weapons and arts gets to go up to silver tier. I still think if the weapon averaged out the enemies DEF/RES like it does the unit's STR/MAG that they would be a lot more useful in more hands, since it isn't uncommon for units to also have lopsided defenses.

Given that arts are basically always given to magic oriented classes/characters(divine dragon being the exception, but Alear is probably the worst user of Arts you could get since swords also hit defense and will almost always do more damage) it seems like devs see this as a way to let them punch through high resistance enemy mages/etc, but not completely for free since they can't fully make use of their cracked mag stat to hit defense instead of res. Just makes me kinda sad because I like fisticuffs in games, but these are just so narrowly useful and locked to so few classes that . . . they just don't see much use if going for optimal damage output.

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I generally feel martial master is the class that needs the most tlc to be effective. Good engraving, early class upgrade to get better odds of stat boosts, refinements up the ass, and access to the erika skill lunar brace so it can threaten armor. It does get interesting benefits though. One it's a healer class that can actually stick closer to Frontline. This is valuable as physics, the only ranged healing staff is limited stock on shop while heal and mend are unlimited. Having access to healing at any moment is valuable. Also they are probably the best obstruct user since they'll be closer to the front which is where you'd have positioned your Frontline anyway. Also the early brave option is useful with alears skill early and by the time you get the brave version of the arts class, you'd hopefully have enough resources for refinement. It also just makes certain units better. Mixed growth units often tend to just be middling versions of more attuned units that use either offensive stat better. With arts at least they get am interesting niche. Chloe, celine, framme, mauvier all have a case for going this class rather than going into a physical or magical class.

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5 hours ago, Usana said:

I think the low weapon mt is the brave compensation not the formula. The problem with class/wielders being suited is any growth dedicated to pushing up both stats is growths not going elsewhere so unless a class or character is getting 'free' growths in the other stat you would just be better off dumping all growth in just one and using other weapons. Like if a class had 20/20 STR/MAG and a character 30/30 they would likely be better off using axes with 40/0 STR/MAG and 60/0 growths respectively.

This isn't to say they are unusable. They give you an early game brave weapon. And once you got silver tier arts they outstrip a typical brave weapon in mt. Kinda like if typical braves were steel weapons and arts gets to go up to silver tier. I still think if the weapon averaged out the enemies DEF/RES like it does the unit's STR/MAG that they would be a lot more useful in more hands, since it isn't uncommon for units to also have lopsided defenses.

Given that arts are basically always given to magic oriented classes/characters(divine dragon being the exception, but Alear is probably the worst user of Arts you could get since swords also hit defense and will almost always do more damage) it seems like devs see this as a way to let them punch through high resistance enemy mages/etc, but not completely for free since they can't fully make use of their cracked mag stat to hit defense instead of res. Just makes me kinda sad because I like fisticuffs in games, but these are just so narrowly useful and locked to so few classes that . . . they just don't see much use if going for optimal damage output.

Well if the weapons had better might then they would be a lot more powerful anyway. In theory though a brave effect should offset reduced stat dependency. I also don't things beed to be viewed in terms if "free growths". I haven't seen the growths, but this isn't Heroes, characters don't have to have the same growth totals. Some characters can, and, indeed, should, have better growths than others.

All in all its just a weird approach to the weapon that doesn't really add anything. Like I said before the only really useful feature of averaging like this is to put in some kind if insurance so if a character is weak in one stat but strong in another they can still do some damage. But in practise that basically doesn't happen and they're just sort of useless aside from being able to break certain enemies. And while I think they went too far, this was probably an intentional nerf after they saw how runaway powerful fists were in 3H.

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I've found that Arts are pretty useful on Maddening when paired with Eirika, more specifically, Lunar Brace. This will give you a unit who can help melt away at armored units. This also follows my philosophy of changing a characters class to meet my immediate needs. If I need the extra damage against armored for a specific map, Louis can swap to fill that role so I have another answers that is also got unprecedented bulk, which is a better option than having Ivy around who is weak to arrows and will die if doubled.

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20 minutes ago, Xylaugheon Daily said:

I've found that Arts are pretty useful on Maddening when paired with Eirika, more specifically, Lunar Brace. This will give you a unit who can help melt away at armored units. 

Ya with this my own experience and the video varsona posted, erika is a must have to make Arts work

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On 2/3/2023 at 7:02 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This would only be true if we were comparing "average of the two offensive stats" to "better of the two offensive stats". Obviously, someone with 18 Str and 2 Mag would prefer calcing by Str alone, rather than the average. But a unit with 2 Str and 18 Mag would be in a far worse spot if Arts damage were based on Str alone.


My point was that even with a mixed unit, Lets say 18 Strength and 14 Magic, even with mixed stats, you are never reaching that 18 Strength with the Arts Calculation. You are reaching 16 Mixed. If you flip that around to 14 Strength and 18 Magic, you get the same thing. 16 Mixed, which is worse then the units best stat. 

Even if you stats are perfectly even in Martial Master, to be truly Zen with the Arts calculation, then your Strength and your magic would be better in different classes, and therefore you can achieve a higher offense score else where. 

Even on a mixed growth unit, a pure stat will always be better then the Arts calculation. If all you want is the double hit, you will do more with a brave weapon (if Str is higher) or with Dire Thunder (if Magic is higher). 

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To be clear, I like Arts. I think that they fulfil a useful niche, giving a magic unit (high priest) an option to target defense instead of Resistance, and they have good breaking potential. But the math is never in your favor to use that as your primary offensive weapon of choice over other options, because the averaging formula is inherently limiting. 

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36 minutes ago, LukeB said:

Even if you stats are perfectly even in Martial Master, to be truly Zen with the Arts calculation, then your Strength and your magic would be better in different classes, and therefore you can achieve a higher offense score else where. 

Even on a mixed growth unit, a pure stat will always be better then the Arts calculation. If all you want is the double hit, you will do more with a brave weapon (if Str is higher) or with Dire Thunder (if Magic is higher). 

Martial Master seems to be for units that have okay Str and lean towards Mag. Arts on a unit with decent Str and higher Mag should be better than a brave weapon on a unit with comparable Str, and better than some tomes that hit once for units with comparable Mag. This is the sell. As I understand it, Dire Thunder is RNG-dependent and may be unavailable for a large chunk of the game (pulling it multiple times seems even more unlikely). So for units that aren't lopsided towards Str and aren't that fast, Arts is good damage.

There aren't many units that fit the bill, but for those that do Arts is likely their best damage output (unless they're able to double with tomes or for some reason are better able to use strong smash weapons well). Examples include Clanne, Jean (although I'm sure he can make a pure physical build work too), Celine or even Chloe - there may be others. Many will still want magic access because range + targeting Res over Def, which seems to scale faster in this game, and arts users still aren't good for at least half the game. But I think they will eventually get there. 

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3 hours ago, LukeB said:


Even on a mixed growth unit, a pure stat will always be better then the Arts calculation. If all you want is the double hit, you will do more with a brave weapon (if Str is higher) or with Dire Thunder (if Magic is higher). 

You won't. Let's take your example - 18 str and 14 mag. If you use brave weapons you get 18 atk if you use arts you get 16 atk. But arts are much better stat wise. Braves are 4,5,6 mt with +5 max forging, silver art is 8 mt with +6 forging. So even axe will be slightly lower damage at max forging. On top of that other stats are much better for art user - silver art has sword level accuracy, better economy(it is cheaper to forge than braves) and much lower weight (7->5 fully forge vs  13,14,16) And I am not even talking about A and S arts. Dire thunder is a bit different story - it has huge advantage of 1-3 range, but stat wise it will also be worse than arts.

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