Ranking each game by classes: Myrmidon/Swordmaster

[Shadow Mir]

IMHO:

• A tier in Binding Blade
• C tier in Three Houses
• D tier in Blazing Blade and Path of Radiance (Lances galore in the enemy ranks, and the poor enemy stats in the former means that hand axes and javelins are best, whereas in the latter, they're arguably at their worst, as Mia is rather lousy, and Lucia is not much better. Zihark and Stefan are more usable, but they struggle to stand out in a game where mounted units in general are really good. Stefan in particular might be better in Maniac... but that's Japan exclusive. And while they were bad enough in the international versions, the Japanese version gives them yet another gut punch, because they *DON'T* have boosted crit.)

[SnowFire]

One point against Sacred Stones Swordmaster that's rather similar to Three Houses: Swordmaster is mostly worse than Assassin, and Joshua/Marisa can pick between the two.  Assassin gets a *huge* XP boost vs. Swordmaster that can easily be the difference between entering the final map at level 14 rather than level 10.  Also, Marisa's low damage means she really values Silencer.  Basically SM is only worth it if you're planning to get a Level 20/20 Joshua to run Lagdou with or the like.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, SnowFire said:

One point against Sacred Stones Swordmaster that's rather similar to Three Houses: Swordmaster is mostly worse than Assassin, and Joshua/Marisa can pick between the two.  Assassin gets a *huge* XP boost vs. Swordmaster that can easily be the difference between entering the final map at level 14 rather than level 10.  Also, Marisa's low damage means she really values Silencer.  Basically SM is only worth it if you're planning to get a Level 20/20 Joshua to run Lagdou with or the like.

I disagree - Assassin is a pretty big letdown in Sacred Stones. Worse promotion gains, and all I get to show for it is an unreliable OHKO that doesn't matter because a crit is often enough to put the enemy down? Pass.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't really consider the statistical different between Assassin and Swordmaster in FE8. Joshua's becoming an assassin because he's a great Colm replacement. The Legault/Jaffar to FE8's Matthew. Okay, maybe the stat difference isn't that wide but I'm just so tired of trying to raise up Colm. He can even still wield Audhulma in this class.

FE8's latter half has some dangerous to approach treasure chests and stealable items. Sure you could escort Colm with tough units, but I'd rather have somebody contributing to combat on the way up. FE8's fog of war maps are all nasty too, so the thief vision range is appreciated. In both routes your first Hero Crest is chapter 10 while your second Fog of War map is chapter 11. Joshua won't mind early promoting since his stats are so high anyway

Edit: I forgot assassins don't have the Steal command like thieves and rogues, but an assassin can still use lockpicks.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[samthedigital]

2 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Edit: I forgot assassins don't have the Steal command like thieves and rogues, but an assassin can still use lockpicks.

Most of the time chest keys will suffice, but most chests aren't really worth the time it takes to open in the first place.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

30 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Most of the time chest keys will suffice, but most chests aren't really worth the time it takes to open in the first place.

Oh I disagree, most FE8 maps that have any chests have 4-6 of them. The player doesn't have a good reason to just ignore the loot. Chest keys can help in a pinch, but are one use only, unlike FE7 where they have five uses. They can be bought, but they fill up your inventory fast and are only a quarter as gold efficient as the lockpick. The Unlock staff also does not work on chests in this game.

But none of this really impacts the Joshua conversation. Do you want the utility of unlocking stuff or don't you? Easy choice to make. Also Silencer might activate on a cyclops in the late game, you never know. 

[samthedigital]

57 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

The player doesn't have a good reason to just ignore the loot.

The loot not being valuable enough is good enough of a reason to ignore it. Money isn't so useful that we need to worry about getting every chest that gives us money, random promotion that we get late into the game, or random weapons that aren't that useful.

57 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

But none of this really impacts the Joshua conversation. Do you want the utility of unlocking stuff or don't you? Easy choice to make. Also Silencer might activate on a cyclops in the late game, you never know. 

I would prefer the +1 base str and crit. It would take Joshua like 3 extra levels as an Assassin to have the same strength.

Edited February 28, 2023 by samthedigital

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The loot not being valuable enough is good enough of a reason to ignore it. Money isn't so useful that we need to worry about getting every chest that gives us money or random weapons that aren't that useful.

Okay, I won't tell you how to play the game. As for me, I find myself pretty low on gold in Sacred Stones, especially when tackling post game since there is no good means of earning more of it. But the debate of whether chest loot is good enough seems pretty distant to the discussion. If you concede that some percentage of players see the value in opening chests, then you see can agree that Assassin has this very real utility over Swordmaster. Almost any unit can be good in a fight, but some are bringing more to the table than just combat. 

Quote

I would prefer the +1 base str and crit. It would take Joshua like 3 extra levels as an Assassin to have the same strength.

But how many encounters meaningfully change from that +1 str difference? Not every unit needs Joshua's speed to double. And Joshua seldom needs an extra point of strength to ORKO something. Even with swordmaster's increased strength cap, a Level 20/20 Joshua on average is just packing one point more strength then a 20/20 Assassin. He needs an energy drop for a bigger difference, and oops you weren't looting them from chests were you?

[samthedigital]

7 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

But the debate of whether chest loot is good enough seems pretty distant to the discussion.

If we're discussing Joshua's promotion paths then it is relevant. Whether the tangent is relevant to the topic is more debatable, but if you didn't want to continue then you wouldn't be replying.

15 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

He needs an energy drop for a bigger difference, and oops you weren't looting them from chests were you?

I said that most chests weren't worth opening. If I took the remark about giving Joshua the Energy Drop at face value I'd say that I wouldn't be giving Joshua stat boosters anyway and that the crit is also a factor.

 

18 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

If you concede that some percentage of players see the value in opening chests, then you see can agree that Assassin has this very real utility over Swordmaster.

For the players that see the value in opening every chest or alternatively don't want to use another unit for the job then yes, I can see the value. It's just that for an experienced player or for a playthrough that's more planned out there is inherently less value in that sort of thing (you'll find that most LTCs, efficiency playthroughs, etc skip a lot of chests and coincidentally promote Joshua to swordmaster), and Swordmaster becomes more valuable. You originally said that Swordmaster is the inferior ("mostly worse") class which isn't necessarily true. I don't really care if you value the lockpicking utility personally, but to say that it is inferior generally speaking is just not true.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I don't really consider the statistical different between Assassin and Swordmaster in FE8. Joshua's becoming an assassin because he's a great Colm replacement. The Legault/Jaffar to FE8's Matthew. Okay, maybe the stat difference isn't that wide but I'm just so tired of trying to raise up Colm. He can even still wield Audhulma in this class.

FE8's latter half has some dangerous to approach treasure chests and stealable items. Sure you could escort Colm with tough units, but I'd rather have somebody contributing to combat on the way up. FE8's fog of war maps are all nasty too, so the thief vision range is appreciated. In both routes your first Hero Crest is chapter 10 while your second Fog of War map is chapter 11. Joshua won't mind early promoting since his stats are so high anyway

Edit: I forgot assassins don't have the Steal command like thieves and rogues, but an assassin can still use lockpicks.

I disagree there - Colm isn't THAT bad. I mean, who the fuck is gonna replace him, Ross? Anyways, even if I wasn't using him, I agree that keys being buyable cuts into the need for an assassin and lockpicks (especially in a game where there is a class that DOESN'T need them).

Edited March 1, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

If we're discussing Joshua's promotion paths then it is relevant. Whether the tangent is relevant to the topic is more debatable, but if you didn't want to continue then you wouldn't be replying.

I didn't bring it up in the first place though? Both of my responses to it have been "I don't see what chest quality has to do with the topic"

Quote

I said that most chests weren't worth opening. If I took the remark about giving Joshua the Energy Drop at face value I'd say that I wouldn't be giving Joshua stat boosters anyway and that the crit is also a factor.

For the players that see the value in opening every chest or alternatively don't want to use another unit for the job then yes, I can see the value. It's just that for an experienced player or for a playthrough that's more planned out there is inherently less value in that sort of thing (you'll find that most LTCs, efficiency playthroughs, etc skip a lot of chests and coincidentally promote Joshua to swordmaster), and Swordmaster becomes more valuable. You originally said that Swordmaster is the inferior ("mostly worse") class which isn't necessarily true. I don't really care if you value the lockpicking utility personally, but to say that it is inferior generally speaking is just not true.

Joshua in an FE8 LTC? Is it a Seth-less or No Mounted Units run? I know Joshua is valuable in 0% growths (because that's his main asset, really high base stats, middling growths). Furthermore an Assassin's higher exp gain would not matter if every level up granted no stats. Speaking of, you worry about the assassin needing to gain three more levels than the swordmaster for the same level of strength, they almost certainly will have gained that many more levels by the end of a playthrough. But in normal play he understandably falls off in the later stages. 6 Mov unit locked to swords. A Swordmaster's bonus crit isn't going to protect him from all the flying ranged attackers or let him cross the mountains and rivers.

Most players are not LTCers and just as well aren't sitting there with a guide for every map handy. Heck I remember how annoying it would be to look up what each chest has in GBA FE, since most guides that STILL come up on google would have a list of chest contents, not which reward corresponds to which chest (and if they did it was often incorrect). Most players will open up any chest that they feel is worth the risk, it's just basic human nature to open treasure chests in a video game without having to determine if it's "worth it" beforehand. You also expressed interest in opening chests when you suggested single-use chest keys as an alternative to a Lockpick user. Even if somebody is the highest echelon of experienced player, there's a lot of RNG involved in Fire Emblem that can force a change in their tactics later. Maybe they need more money after all, maybe they need another good weapon after their others run out.

By the way, I said neither of the things that are in bold. If you read my original post I was expressing my personal approach and value systems. My repeated use of the word "I" reinforces that. Nobody would mistake my post for objective fact. Nobody is demanding you agree or disagree with my opinions.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I disagree there - Colm isn't THAT bad. I mean, who the fuck is gonna replace him, Ross???

Well, Joshua if you ask me. That's kind of the thesis statement of that post. Rennac is another satisfying answer for the late game. I will say Ross is much more fun and profitable to raise up, but he can never learn to open chests. Sort of an apples to oranges comparison.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Whisky]

39 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Joshua in an FE8 LTC?

I’ve heard that Joshua is used in LTCs yeah.

I find it’s rarely useful for Thieves to be good at fighting. I just use Colm and Rennac for chests. If I’m training up Joshua I want to be good in combat and prefer Swordmaster. I don’t think Assassin is much worse of an option, but I wouldn’t consider Swordmaster outclassed by If like it is in 3H.

@Shadow Mir

Hey, I understand not being fond of Swordmasters in the FE7-9, I don’t think they’re great either, but can I ask why you rated 3H higher? I think Swordmasters are terrible there.

[samthedigital]

19 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I didn't bring it up in the first place though?

That doesn't really matter, does it?. If you want to get technical about it though his thieving utility would be relevant to the discussion (assuming it was worthwhile) if we're comparing myrmidons from across the series.

21 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Joshua in an FE8 LTC? Is it a Seth-less or No Mounted Units run? I know Joshua is valuable in 0% growths (because that's his main asset, really high base stats, middling growths).

I haven't looked at a growths LTC in a while, but I have seen efficiency runs where he does see some combat. Seth does a lot, but he can't do all of the less important tasks or route every single enemy; Joshua isn't completely worthless.

25 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

You also expressed interest in opening chests when you suggested single-use chest keys as an alternative to a Lockpick user. Even if somebody is the highest echelon of experienced player, there's a lot of RNG involved in Fire Emblem that can force a change in their tactics later. Maybe they need more money after all, maybe they need another good weapon after their others run out.

If we're strictly talking about an experienced player then it's hard to imagine them running out of money unless they're doing some kind of challenge run. If not then there are often a lot of outs via the tower and creature campaign (and convoy if you're really struggling with weapons I guess).

 

38 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Most players will open up any chest that they feel is worth the risk, it's just basic human nature to open treasure chests in a video game without having to determine if it's "worth it" beforehand.

What most players do or what is human nature doesn't necessarily correlate with what is best. A lot of players hoard their stat boosters, fight every enemy on a map, etc, but that isn't optimal. People do tend to move away from this especially as they play through the game more. To bring this back to the topic's intended discussion though; are we ranking units based on what the casual player thinks is best or are we ranking units based on what is actually best? If it's the latter then his thieving utility doesn't matter.

[Shadow Mir]

44 minutes ago, Whisky said:

@Shadow Mir

Hey, I understand not being fond of Swordmasters in the FE7-9, I don’t think they’re great either, but can I ask why you rated 3H higher? I think Swordmasters are terrible there.

As to that, I'd say Catherine might have something to do with it, as well as the fact that hand axes and javelins got nerfed to the point of uselessness. And yeah,  swordmasters may not be great there, but I'd frankly say they're better off than in games where they face tons of WTD (which happens in Blazing Blade and Path of Radiance; the latter in particular seems to have swordmasters at their worst, especially since they didn't even get boosted crit in the Japanese version - something that might adversely affect Stefan's performance in the context of the exclusive maniac mode).

Edited March 1, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Whisky]

32 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

As to that, I'd say Catherine might have something to do with it, as well as the fact that hand axes and javelins got nerfed to the point of uselessness. And yeah,  swordmasters may not be great there, but I'd frankly say they're better off than in games where they face tons of WTD (which happens in Blazing Blade and Path of Radiance; the latter in particular seems to have swordmasters at their worst, especially since they didn't even get boosted crit in the Japanese version - something that might adversely affect Stefan's performance in the context of the exclusive maniac mode).

Oh they don’t? I had no idea. That’s disappointing. Yeah that reasoning is fair enough. Catherine is really strong if you recruit her early. She’s the only unit I’d use as a Swordmaster and I think it’s a good idea to switch her to something better later but you can definitely get some good use out of her as a Swordmaster pre time skip.

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

To bring this back to the topic's intended discussion though; are we ranking units based on what the casual player thinks is best or are we ranking units based on what is actually best? If it's the latter then his thieving utility doesn't matter.

I’d say it’s what’s best. Does it even change anything here? I think Swordmaster is better than Assassin personally. Colm and Rennac can open chests, Joshua can focus on combat. I don’t think there’s too huge of a difference in his performance either way though. 

Maybe if you’re playing an Ironman and got Colm killed than you would want to make Joshua an Assassin, but for the most part I’d go with Swordmaster for more reliably killing power. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Whisky

[samthedigital]

7 minutes ago, Whisky said:

I’d say it’s what’s best. Does it even change anything here?

I would say that it does, at least somewhat. If we assume that chests are valuable and that an Assassin should get a lot of credit for being able to open them for whatever reason then I do think that a unit like Joshua would be better relative to other games. I'd prefer a faster way of getting to the chests with a mounted unit or whatever with warp, but I'll try not to go on too much of a tangent.

[SnowFire]

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I disagree - Assassin is a pretty big letdown in Sacred Stones. Worse promotion gains, and all I get to show for it is an unreliable OHKO that doesn't matter because a crit is often enough to put the enemy down? Pass.

First, if you don't like it that's fine, but it's still an advantage of Assassin that complicates the equation and makes SM relatively less appealing.  If you still prefer SM, fine, but that doesn't change the basic fact that SM is missing some features Assassin has.

Second, did you miss the part about four extra levels?  That's the part that's actually being hyped.  The game doesn't tell you about this XP boost so it's not even a case of false advertising and feeling betrayed and let down; rather, it's a case of once you know about this, Assassin being so much better than advertised.  What you're describing is the conventional wisdom circa 2004 that all Assassin has is Silencer, which is not true, it has the experience boost as well.  Those extra levels will easily make up for the "worse promotions gains" which are only very marginally worse, unless you are going to 20/20 or care about stat caps, which should only matter if you are doing some goofy challenge in the Lagdou Ruins or the like.

Edited March 1, 2023 by SnowFire

[Dark Holy Elf]

Skipping the DS games since I don't remember them well, and Thracia which I haven't played.

For games without class swapping, I'm trying not to weight tooo highly individual unit details (e.g. I'm not giving PoR Swordmaster credit for Stefan starting overlevelled), but I will speak to the general trends of the units who represent the class. Not ordered within tier.

One of the Best Classes

Binding Blade: +30 crit. Swords are actually good in this game. They also have high speed i.e. evasion in a game where dodgetanking rules.

Good Class

Radiant Dawn: Wind Edges aren't forgeable, but the stronger 1-2 swords are much stronger than they are for other weapons (Wishblade and Double Bow aside... and even then, swords get multiple S ranks). The high speed usually lets them double things other units just can't, right up until the very last map.

Fates. High speed is appreciated, and the class has innate bonuses to evasion. 1-2 swords exist. I've definitely reclassed people into this for speed alone.

Decent

Echoes. I'm apparently less high on this class than most people, I found them pretty consistently short of one-rounding things, but there's nothing really wrong with it.

Awakening. Now the lack of 1-2 range starts to enter play. Amatsu goes a ways towards patching this up, but that's relatively late.

Genealogy. They have pretty cool stats but this is horse emblem. Still, I think they're better than the games below.

Below average

Blazing Blade. Highly limited, 1-2 range, speed is often overkill, though evade is at least nice. One-rounding enemies in this game is pretty easy so crit is mostly a waste.

Sacred Stones. Same as Blazing, but competes with Assassin and yeah it's losing that trade. 

Engage: Backup is nice and Levin Sword exists, but it still compares very poorly to other available options. Hero has mostly the same stats but gets Brave Assist and a second weapon, Griffin Knight has almost identical stats but flies and uses staves.

Terrible

Path of Radiance. As above, no credit for Stefan. This is Mounted Unit Emblem and Forgeable 1-2 Range Emblem. Swordmasters can do neither. Heck, paladins tend to outpseed them once you know about the Knight Ward!

Three Houses: Mounted Unit Emblem part 2, unless you're a rare infantry class that gets something really cool to make up for this, like Hunter's Volley. Astra is... no Hunter's Volley.

[LoneRecon400]

1 hour ago, SnowFire said:

Second, did you miss the part about four extra levels?  That's the part that's actually being hyped.  The game doesn't tell you about this XP boost so it's not even a case of false advertising and feeling betrayed and let down; rather, it's a case of once you know about this, Assassin being so much better than advertised.  What you're describing is the conventional wisdom circa 2004 that all Assassin has is Silencer, which is not true, it has the experience boost as well.  Those extra levels will easily make up for the "worse promotions gains" which are only very marginally worse, unless you are going to 20/20 or care about stat caps, which should only matter if you are doing some goofy challenge in the Lagdou Ruins or the like.

How are you expected to gain four levels from silencer? Are you stacking supports or using a killer edge exclusively or something?

Because else wise I'm not seeing how you gaining that much exp from >10% proc rate.

Edited March 1, 2023 by LoneRecon400

[Dark Holy Elf]

13 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

How are you expected to gain four levels from silencer? Are you stacking supports or using a killer edge exclusively or something?

Because else wise I'm not seeing how you gaining that much exp from >10% proc rate.

Assassin gains exp as if their level is 6.67 lower than other promoted classes. Same with Rogue, Valkyrie, and Bishop. Nothing to do with Silencer (although that does have a slight exp push too). An Assassin will easily reach +4 levels on a Swordmaster within a few maps of promotion.

https://serenesforest.net/the-sacred-stones/miscellaneous/calculations/

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Second, did you miss the part about four extra levels?  That's the part that's actually being hyped.  The game doesn't tell you about this XP boost so it's not even a case of false advertising and feeling betrayed and let down; rather, it's a case of once you know about this, Assassin being so much better than advertised.  What you're describing is the conventional wisdom circa 2004 that all Assassin has is Silencer, which is not true, it has the experience boost as well.  Those extra levels will easily make up for the "worse promotions gains" which are only very marginally worse, unless you are going to 20/20 or care about stat caps, which should only matter if you are doing some goofy challenge in the Lagdou Ruins or the like.

bruh
4 extra levels? That's expecting way too much. And to put it bluntly, because Assassin has worse promotion gains, all those levels did (if you even get that much of a level lead, which I'm not convinced is happening) is do damage control. Color me unimpressed.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[SnowFire]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:44 AM, Shadow Mir said:

bruh
4 extra levels? That's expecting way too much. And to put it bluntly, because Assassin has worse promotion gains, all those levels did (if you even get that much of a level lead, which I'm not convinced is happening) is do damage control. Color me unimpressed.

Sure.  If you're not convinced, perhaps you'd like to do the math yourself?  I've already done it so I'm convinced, but I figure you'll convince yourself better than me convincing you.  Go grab a spreadsheet and plug in that equation Elf linked above that essentially grants Assassin (/Valkyrie/Bishop/Rogue) +20 XP every single kill.  Figure out how many kills it takes for Swordmaster (or any normal class) to hit Level 6, say, and then plug that number of kills into the Assassin formula, and see what level you get.  Happy to help out if desired!  But this is a matter of math, there's a correct answer, not an opinion.  (And if you don't want to do the math, that's cool too, but then admit that you're not sure about the extent of Assassin's level lead.)

[Shadow Mir]

12 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

Sure.  If you're not convinced, perhaps you'd like to do the math yourself?  I've already done it so I'm convinced, but I figure you'll convince yourself better than me convincing you.  Go grab a spreadsheet and plug in that equation Elf linked above that essentially grants Assassin (/Valkyrie/Bishop/Rogue) +20 XP every single kill.  Figure out how many kills it takes for Swordmaster (or any normal class) to hit Level 6, say, and then plug that number of kills into the Assassin formula, and see what level you get.  Happy to help out if desired!  But this is a matter of math, there's a correct answer, not an opinion.  (And if you don't want to do the math, that's cool too, but then admit that you're not sure about the extent of Assassin's level lead.)

How am I supposed to buy into Assassin being, in your own words, "better than advertised" when it needs an unreasonable level lead just to overtake Swordmaster stats wise? Cut the crap. From my perspective, the correct is answer is NOT the one that has worse promotion gains and needs an unreasonable level lead to look better.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[SnowFire]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

How am I supposed to buy into Assassin being, in your own words, "better than advertised" when it needs an unreasonable level lead just to overtake Swordmaster stats wise? Cut the crap. From my perspective, the correct is answer is NOT the one that has worse promotion gains and needs a level lead to look better.

Permission to treat the witness as hostile, judge?  Thanks.

I am solely trying to get you to accept that Assassin has a major level lead in the same way that Assassin has Silencer and Swordmaster doesn't.  If you still want to promote Joshua to Swordmaster, go nuts, but this is a basic "what are the features of the class" level thing.  Even if you disrespect Silecner, Assassin has it, and even if you don't care about experience (curious, given that you think the mild promotion gain increase edge is cataclysmically important, and these levels will swap that edge), Assassin has extra levels, at least until capping out at 20.

Pick one, and only one, of the following:

1. You agree that Assassin gets more XP than Swordmaster and will gain an "unreasonable" level lead with the same amount of use.  (You're free to not promote to it anyway!)
2. You do not agree that Assassin will gain such a level lead and think everyone else screwed up their math, or that the calculations page Elf linked is wrong, or something else.

[samthedigital]

8 hours ago, SnowFire said:

or something else.

That something else is the third option; using Joshua in the short term and benching him later on in the game.