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Ranking each game by classes: Myrmidon/Swordmaster


Whisky
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To be clear, the above nonsense is solely trying to settle the factual issue of "does Assassin have a big level lead on Swordmaster" (since Mir seems skeptical of that fact), not "is Joshua / SM / Assassin good."  "Something else" is specifically on the topic of the level lead and would be "I level my Joshua exclusively via boss chipping and never let him kill anything" or the like.  Although given that I'm saying that SM is kinda meh, I suspect @samthedigital would agree with me anyway on the broader question if you're saying you already dropped Joshua.

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Dropping Joshua is fine and uncontroversial. He's sort of destined to fall off as the game introduces more rough terrain and flying/Javelin touting enemies. It doesn't change the fact that he's very powerful in the early game, He's just not FE7 Raven where he's making maximum usage of every drop of exp. Even Raven's not the best unit in his own game, because it's a meta better defined by its pre-promotes.

I guess my making Joshua an Assassin is the way I keep him "earning" that deployment slot on half of chapters. Popping open chests, still being a able to ORKO things, and despite seeing less combat, doesn't fall behind in levels. Having the extra crit might prevent a counterattack Twice or thrice in a playthrough, but getting hurt means more exp for healers. It won't change what he can and cannot ORKO except in extreme cases, so I don't consider it the straight upgrade it would be on most characters. I just wish he could steal items too. Assassins losing that ability was such a dumb part of FE7 you think they wouldn't make that mistake twice now that two classes promote into it.

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Once again, I am open to change with this list.

The Keenest Edge:

BinB: To be a dissenting voice on this, while it's a good class a fair chunk of that has to come from HM Rutger: the guy has such growths as to add to his stupid good bases and on promotion gets a boost to his output that makes him one of the game's best units be default, even with early promotion. That aside +30 Crit on the physical type with the most utility and best accuracy is a hard combo to match that even Fir works well with it as well and the class is one of BinB's better options.

Good Class option:

SoV/Gaiden: What's been said about DF, I covered here. It's still good here too, just feels more Swordmastery as a class imo.

NMotE: NMotE does have some interest in units hitting their stat caps on the highest difficulties and of course Swordmaster gets the highest Spd cap, which is useful with the strength of later game enemies. Combined with 1-2 spam not being as useful Swordmaster doesn't feel like it's made redundant and you can even have stupid fun with magic focused swordmasters as well.

Thracia: Being swordlocked in Thracia is far from the biggest crime, considering this game has the least extant weapon triangle in the series, good weapons to make up for nonmagic 1-2 range and those magic swords tend to be at least alright. There's also the availability of PCC in this game, which helps Mareeta and Shiva in their combat, but doesn't add much for Eyvel (who it doesn't matter for) or Trewd and Shanam is one of the units with 0 PCC, which just adds to the hilarity.

MotE: Another one I covered in Hero I feel fits here more. Weapon options are good enough to be worth using and movement isn't an issue for it either.

It's decent enough:

SD: From what I've seen of high level play, they seem less essential to endgame compared to NMotE. Not much to add here imo, I could see this getting changed in position.

Engage: A class I feel I can judge even less so than Hero so far, but I can't argue with high Spd units in Engage. No Weapon Triangle options is unfortunate, Run Through feels kinda niche but can have utility, Kagetsu gives a good impression. Another one I'd consider changing.

RD: So, this game is not like PoR. You actually have reasons to use Swordmasters for high speed opponents, 1-2 range available and it's a game where evade is no bad thing where you can get it. It's worth considering them for endgame in Hard which is better than for some others, has +20% crit compared to the last three games' 15% and plenty of units who can be used in it. I think Decent is a fair cateegory.

Fates: Swordmaster is a class with high speed, which does provide it some use imo. There's a decent set of swords available for it too. There's also the fact it gives a big pairup Spd boost, as well as Astra being stupid good for lead units when it activates as it'll fill up shield gauges pretty much every time. Is it a top tier class? I wouldn't think so. Ryoma does give it a big bonus though.

Limited Utility:

Genealogy: 30 Spd. Bunch of multi-hit skills on units in this class. I think the main issue really is just that the maps are centred on cavalry, because Swords are a good weapon type in this game. There are cases where the stupid high Spd can give purpose to units in lategame and of course the ones you get all have Astra (And an Astra that's Skl proc and full damage at that) for sure, combined with Pursuit and Adept at a minimum gives a good baseline for multihit damage. But still, this is Cav Emblem.

Awakening: There's probably some use in support units giving stupid speed to better classes/units, but I would say it hasn't the most usage of the infantry classes in Awakening. Having Swordfaire and Astra are at least alright skills, though there are better options for skills. Fates does more imo.

SS: Being swordlocked in a game where that's going to be suboptimal I can't argue this ranks highly. SS however still feels like I can find more use for it than in the titles below for postgame purposes, but Assassin does have potential over it as mentioned in the thread. I would not recommend it for Marisa in most any context and Joshua could still find use for Assassin over it. Swordmaster does have innate +15 crit as well, which does hurt being a high crit class imo.

What are you doing here?:

3H: Astra does less damage (5*.3 leaves you with 1.5 times damage assuming no crits), but at least it's a combat art here. But more than that pure swordies don't make much of any sense here (and don't exist in practice for the player) and next to any of the useful classes want Swords either to unlock them or as part of their builds. Overall, I just don't rate them here.

PoR: I kinda feel like games with sword lords tend to give me less less reason to use swordlocked units and here's a hard example. Astra is Skl/2 and half damage here, swords in PoR aren't a great weapon and I can't think of a case where the class does anything much better than most of the other classes.

BlaB: The passage of time rose this class from the bottom to the top. Now why is that? Well, for one thing the game's infamous for how much you can use 1-2 range spam that leaves swords on the outs. Second halving the class crit is a bad time for them. Finally, the unit quality in this game doesn't have anything on the level of Rutger, Guy may get boosts but he gets very little and Karel in this game is not all that worthwhile to pick up over Harken. Least in PoR there are worthwhile units to consider and an S rank weapon that shows up before the finale.

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3 hours ago, Punished Dayni said:

To be a dissenting voice on this, while it's a good class a fair chunk of that has to come from HM Rutger: the guy has such growths as to add to his stupid good bases and on promotion gets a boost to his output that makes him one of the game's best units be default, even with early promotion. That aside +30 Crit on the physical type with the most utility and best accuracy is a hard combo to match that even Fir works well with it as well and the class is one of BinB's better options.

It definitely has a lot to do with his join time and his ability to kill otherwise awful bosses early on, but I wouldn't have been too unhappy if he swapped join times with Fir either; she basically ends up as a mini Rutger as is if she gets fed on the Western Isles. She just misses out on a few key boss kills and starts at a lower level.

 

3 hours ago, Punished Dayni said:

A class I feel I can judge even less so than Hero so far, but I can't argue with high Spd units in Engage. No Weapon Triangle options is unfortunate, Run Through feels kinda niche but can have utility, Kagetsu gives a good impression. Another one I'd consider changing.

Kagetsu is amazing, but I'm not sure if we want to give the class credit for that because he wants to class swap to a flying unit as soon as possible. If we're evaluating the class itself I would put it closer to the limited utility tier bordering on bottom tier. It's not necessarily bad, but I can't think of any reason (including follow through unless there's some specific situation I've not thought of) that anyone would want to spend time in that class.

3 hours ago, Punished Dayni said:

BlaB: The passage of time rose this class from the bottom to the top. Now why is that? Well, for one thing the game's infamous for how much you can use 1-2 range spam that leaves swords on the outs. Second halving the class crit is a bad time for them. Finally, the unit quality in this game doesn't have anything on the level of Rutger, Guy may get boosts but he gets very little and Karel in this game is not all that worthwhile to pick up over Harken. Least in PoR there are worthwhile units to consider and an S rank weapon that shows up before the finale.

If we're using your tiering metric I would put this in limited utility. Guy is useful for 3 or 4 chapters when the team is small. He might be alright when deployed in a handful of other chapters, but that's more in line with PoR Swordmaster utility. I'm not familiar with the 3H meta, but in PoR all they're useful for (outside of MM, but I mentioned that earlier) is start of map utility that almost any unit can do while mounted units do the brunt of the real work. I don't remember if they have enough build to be good shove bots either.

Edited by samthedigital
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I don’t know how much of a difference Assassin’s exp bonus makes. Even a few extra levels for Assassin wouldn’t make a huge difference. Joshua pretty much doubles everything regardless and Spd is his highest growth so that’d be the biggest difference. Assassin needs a few extra levels to catch up to Swordmaster in Str and few more levels to get ahead. So Swordmaster is stronger right after promoting and Assassin is stronger late game, but either way it’s a small difference. A few extra levels would give him extra HP and stuff too, but I’d need to see examples of where that actually matters. A few more HP doesn’t usually make a huge difference.
 

Against enemies that he can’t kill without a Crit, Swordmaster’s Crit bonus could be more useful. I don’t think there’s a significant difference between the two classes either way, but I don’t think Swordmaster is outclassed by Assassin.

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1 hour ago, Whisky said:

I don’t know how much of a difference Assassin’s exp bonus makes.

To make it interesting we'd probably have to ban warp. I'm still skeptical that he would see enough combat to get many levels in if we're max moving units with 1-2 range and more movement every turn though.

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3 hours ago, Whisky said:

I don’t know how much of a difference Assassin’s exp bonus makes. Even a few extra levels for Assassin wouldn’t make a huge difference. Joshua pretty much doubles everything regardless and Spd is his highest growth so that’d be the biggest difference. Assassin needs a few extra levels to catch up to Swordmaster in Str and few more levels to get ahead. So Swordmaster is stronger right after promoting and Assassin is stronger late game, but either way it’s a small difference. A few extra levels would give him extra HP and stuff too, but I’d need to see examples of where that actually matters. A few more HP doesn’t usually make a huge difference.

To be fair, +1 str isn't a big difference either. It is entirely conceivable to never face an enemy where that one point matters, especially since after just a few kills there's a chance that gap is gone.

  • Immediately upon promotion, Swordmaster has +2 HP, +1 Str, -1 Res, and +1 Con.
  • Once the level gap is 5, Assassin has +2 HP, +0.75 Str, +2.75 Skl, +2.75 Spd (+1.75 with heavy swords), +1.5 Luck, +1 Def, and +2 Res. The evade gap deserves note at +7.

I don't think either of these gaps are super massive, but I think it's fair to say that considering the above, if one of these classes looks better, it's Assassin. To me, what cements the win is Assassin having improved fog vision (arguably Sacred Stones's hardest maps are fog maps) and lockpicks. The more combat Joshua sees, the faster he gains levels and thus builds up a modest stat lead as an Assassin. But the less combat Joshua sees, the less important the stat differences are and the more important the fog vision and lockpicking become relatively. So Assassin would seem to come out ahead whatever your long-term plans for Joshua are.

Ignoring that "don't promote Joshua" arguably comes out ahead of both.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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On 3/5/2023 at 4:54 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair, +1 str isn't a big difference either. It is entirely conceivable to never face an enemy where that one point matters, especially since after just a few kills there's a chance that gap is gone.

  • Immediately upon promotion, Swordmaster has +2 HP, +1 Str, -1 Res, and +1 Con.
  • Once the level gap is 5, Assassin has +2 HP, +0.75 Str, +2.75 Skl, +2.75 Spd (+1.75 with heavy swords), +1.5 Luck, +1 Def, and +2 Res. The evade gap deserves note at +7.

I don't think either of these gaps are super massive, but I think it's fair to say that considering the above, if one of these classes looks better, it's Assassin. To me, what cements the win is Assassin having improved fog vision (arguably Sacred Stones's hardest maps are fog maps) and lockpicks. The more combat Joshua sees, the faster he gains levels and thus builds up a modest stat lead as an Assassin. But the less combat Joshua sees, the less important the stat differences are and the more important the fog vision and lockpicking become relatively. So Assassin would seem to come out ahead whatever your long-term plans for Joshua are.

Ignoring that "don't promote Joshua" arguably comes out ahead of both.

I didn’t really think of fog vision. Stat wise I agree Swordmaster’s +1 Str isn’t a big advantage. I don’t think there will be much of a noticeable difference in Joshua’s performance in either class. The 15% Crit boost can help get kills against tougher enemies but it’s not reliable, and Assassin can get Crits with a Killing Edge too. The 30% from Binding Blade would be a different story but that’s not the case here. Assassin gets fog vision, lockpick, and also can find items in the desert. And the increased exp gain results in better stats in the long run.

Alright yeah, with all of those factors I can see someone considering Assassin better. Swordmaster does have its own advantages still so it depends on the situation. I don’t think it’s a significant difference either way but Assassin does have some appealing attributes.

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2 hours ago, Whisky said:

Assassin gets fog vision, lockpick, and also can find items in the desert. And the increased exp gain results in better stats in the long run.

Unfortunately they do not find items in the Chapter 15 desert with 100% success rate. Like the Steal command, it's a bonus that thieves will lose if they choose to promote to Assassin, and myrmidons could never gain.

This was true of FE7 as well, but seldom relevant, since your first Ocean Seal is dug up IN the desert chapter. Promoting Matthew/Legault could only screw you over if you choose to use it right there before you've finished digging up treasures. If you ask me, you shouldn't promote either of them to begin with. Stealing items is a big deal in that game, and the Ocean Seal's high value really makes a difference in a Ranked run as well.

The other points are correct. If only someone made them earlier.

Edited by Zapp Branniglenn
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On 3/5/2023 at 5:54 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

To me, what cements the win is Assassin having improved fog vision (arguably Sacred Stones's hardest maps are fog maps) and lockpicks.

Honestly, the only fog map I see anyone - and I do mean anyone - talk about regarding Sacred Stones is Phantom Ship. the ability to use lockpicks is something that imho is only relevant if you were ironmanning and lost Colm...

3 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Unfortunately they do not find items in the Chapter 15 desert with 100% success rate. Like the Steal command, it's a bonus that thieves will lose if they choose to promote to Assassin, and myrmidons could never gain. This was true of FE7 as well, but seldom relevant, since your first Ocean Seal is dug up IN the desert chapter. Promoting Matthew/Legault could only screw you over if you choose to use it right there before you've finished digging up treasures.

The other points are correct. If only someone made them earlier.

Um, thieves in Blazing Blade need the Fell Contract to promote (the Ocean Seal is only used by Dart)... which is not obtained until well after the desert. And the level where you get it gives you Jaffar, who comes as an Assassin out the box. so...

Edited by Shadow Mir
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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Um, thieves need the Fell Contract to promote... 

Oh that's right. 

Wow. Ranking each game by Thief/Assassin is going to be annoying. Will it just come down to the quality of stealable/lockpick items?

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7 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Oh that's right. 

Wow. Ranking each game by Thief/Assassin is going to be annoying. Will it just come down to the quality of stealable/lockpick items?

The issue comes from what exactly thieves can do being different from game to game. For example, the Archanean games have Marth able to do half of the unique functions of thieves after obtaining the Fire Emblem. Awakening and Fates make the ability to open chests tied to a skill, and in the latter, not only do you not buy keys, they disappear once the chapter they are obtained in is complete.

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29 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Oh that's right. 

Wow. Ranking each game by Thief/Assassin is going to be annoying. Will it just come down to the quality of stealable/lockpick items?

Yeah.. I have no idea how to do that. They’re a utility class, not a combat class. They all function mostly the same. They can all mostly open chests and steal items equally. Their value depends on how many good items there are for them to get and whether you can buy keys or not, but that seems complicated. How much does their combat even take part on their analysis when it mostly doesn’t matter because that’s not what you use them for?

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33 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Wow. Ranking each game by Thief/Assassin is going to be annoying. Will it just come down to the quality of stealable/lockpick items?

This is true of the GBA games and a few others, but they have some added utility in FE4 and FE5. It would not be much of a debate for the GBA games though. In FE6 there is a tangible benefit to hoarding wealth because of the chapter 21 secret shop.

43 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Unfortunately they do not find items in the Chapter 15 desert with 100% success rate.

Unless you do the desert item RNG manipulation trick.

 

40 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

the ability to use lockpicks is something that imho is only relevant if you were ironmanning and lost Colm...

Rennac also exists if the player really want the thieving utility. I still find that this discussion is largely pointless though. Even if Joshua was better as an assassin he wouldn't get any extra points for utility or combat outside of casual play.

Edited by samthedigital
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54 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Unfortunately they do not find items in the Chapter 15 desert with 100% success rate. Like the Steal command, it's a bonus that thieves will lose if they choose to promote to Assassin, and myrmidons could never gain.

 

Oh I see. I didn’t realize this.

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, the only fog map I see anyone - and I do mean anyone - talk about regarding Sacred Stones is Phantom Ship.

Last Hope. It's easily the hardest lategame map IMO, and I've certainly seen it talked about.

Chapter 6 is also the hardest earlygame map by a ways, I'd say, but it's also before you can promote Joshua making this moot.

In general I'd consider fog maps just tougher relatively, especially if you don't have all enemy placements memorized or look them up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am coming back here to add my two cents on Engage's variant,

I am tentatively putting it in D tier,

The greatest indictment of this class was that I had to double check if it was even in this game. I never once felt like it would be the best class for anyone I used, and the units who were saddled with it at the start I either moved them out of the class so quickly that I forgot it even existed, or benched them (sorry Lapis).

 

On 3/10/2023 at 11:27 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, the only fog map I see anyone - and I do mean anyone - talk about regarding Sacred Stones is Phantom Ship.

I am going to disagree with you here, as if you talk to anyone that has ironmanned Sacred Stones, you will hear Chapter 6 Victims of War come up a fair bit more than Phantom Ship, as that map is a lot more dangerous than it looks, and is less easy to cheese than Phantom Ship is. Now Chapter 6 isn't a run killer, but if someone lost a unit on a Sacred Stones ironman, that would be the chapter I would put my money on where they lost somebody.

Admittedly that is too early to be relevant to the question of Joshua becoming an Assassin for the Fog of War sight to be relevant.

On 3/10/2023 at 7:06 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Last Hope. It's easily the hardest lategame map IMO, and I've certainly seen it talked about.

Last Hope is real easy to cheese though, even easier to cheese than Phantom Ship. You can either rescue-drop Mansel into the treasure room, and hold the whole map to a single space choke point, or if you want to get fancy and have the resources to spend you can go for the very early Riev kill.

 

On 3/10/2023 at 12:05 PM, Whisky said:

Yeah.. I have no idea how to do that. They’re a utility class, not a combat class. They all function mostly the same. They can all mostly open chests and steal items equally. Their value depends on how many good items there are for them to get and whether you can buy keys or not, but that seems complicated. How much does their combat even take part on their analysis when it mostly doesn’t matter because that’s not what you use them for?

I think its one of the more interesting sets to tier truthfully, and I have a rough idea of what I would say...it's really not for this thread, so I wont elaborate too much but for a little taste of where I think it roughly shakes out

Spoiler

A: Thracia 776; Engage

Borderline a-b: Blazing Sword

B: (Fates ?) Genealogy of the Holy War (+/-1 rank)

C:Binding Blade; Radiant Dawn;

Borderline c/d: Awakening

D:Path of Radiance, Sacred Stones.

F: Shadow Dragon, New Mystery of the Emblem.

 

 

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