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End game reflections are story discussion. Spoilers.


scigeek101
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So I finished it, and while the map design was still pretty tight and fun in the late chapters. Chapter 25 being a really good map in general, the plot just really took a nosedive, it wasn't good from the start but somehow it just got even worse. I think starting with that chapter where Alear dies and gets revived twice. Then the whole Lumera stuff. It really felt like every chapter was just dumping some new BS on you that hadn't been fleshed out. The villains motivations, the zero emblem. It's just all around hot garbage. Really soured me on the game unfortunately I was enjoying from like chapter 5-20 though it wasn't good but the late game the plot is just infuriatingly bad. 

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The buildup to like literally everything was so weak that when the twists and reveals started happening I was just not interested at all. Veyle’s multiple personalities, Marni’s lore backdrop then immediate death, The dumb helmet thing, and then corrupted Alear??? Story started as a snoozefest and it somehow got worse.

At least in my opinion.

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33 minutes ago, Viberum said:

The buildup to like literally everything was so weak that when the twists and reveals started happening I was just not interested at all. Veyle’s multiple personalities, Marni’s lore backdrop then immediate death, The dumb helmet thing, and then corrupted Alear??? Story started as a snoozefest and it somehow got worse.

At least in my opinion.

Stuff just got thrown out and resolved in like three seconds in the last bit of the game. It felt like every chapter they were throwing in some new plot idea only to ditch it at the end of the chapter. Lore drop then death. Sometimes death then lore drop. 

I don't get the whole point with the corrupted MC. Like oh no you're a zombie now except there seems to be literally no downsides to it and you look and act exactly the same but then die for story reasons before not dying again. 

I mean I've seen the "brought back from death" trope get done too much before but I don't think I've ever seen someone revive twice in one chapter lol. It's like they removed the cool down timer on the dragon balls. 

Then there was just the whole corrupted Lumera bit, she's evil now because, why? Because she's a zombie I guess? Like couldn't they have made her look evil or something? 

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9 hours ago, scigeek101 said:

Then there was just the whole corrupted Lumera bit, she's evil now because, why? Because she's a zombie I guess? Like couldn't they have made her look evil or something? 

I disagree with this last part complaint. That is actually one of the better part of the story.

If you pay attention before (if you dont , i dont blame you being story like this) lumera condition is exactly like Hyacinth in ch.17

They get resurrected just like hyacinth with their memory intact, but  not their reasoning. They can say something good, but dont know why its good/bad. Because the order from fell dragon who resurrect them will be put above all else in their actions

Rather than zombie, more like puppet on strings.

You can see this evidently from battle dialogue with vander, the twin Framme Cranne, and Alear. Similar if you battle Hyacinth with Ivy and Hortensia.

They are not evil, just will always do what the evil lord told them to. (Fighting alear forces for hyacinth, guarding the crystal for lumera). So making them evil is not necessary, because the point is they are good people made to do evil bidding. Sort of like emblem when they are red

 

Edited by joevar
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I actually quite enjoyed what we got story wise. I do feel like the story helped more to serve the gameplay and set up really cool gameplay moments like chapter 11 and 17 than actually tell a story but as someone who is quite used to shitty shounen/power of friendship type stories, Engage was fine imo and did nothing that was bad, just rather typical and at worst, boring. The game knew what it was and what it was telling and didn't try to be anything it wasn't. The bad guys were the bad guys and the good guys were the good guys.

I do think the four hounds could've used more. Getting their backstories moments before they die was eh, especially for Marni where it felt the most expository. I really wish they tried something else since what we did get I do find interesting and I actually really enjoy their dynamic as this family unit that are all kinda fucked up and because of how they were brought up before finding one another, they all have these shitty toxic traits but you can tell, if stuff happened differently, they would be a genuine and loving found family. I also didn't mind Veyle having a split personality. They needed someway to make the dragon girl redeemable so what they did makes sense I guess.

The most annoying moment imo and the one where I did roll my eyes was the end where Alear died protecting Veyle, was brought back as a corrupted, died, again, and then was brought back by the emblems as an emblem. In any story, dying twice and being brought back both times, especially in such quick succession is always just boring, tired and shitty and I think they shoulda found some other way to bring them back. Just bring them back as an Emblem straight away or smth instead or needing Veyle to bring them back as a corrupted. I get they also wanted Veyle to have her moment of breaking free for the final time but regardless, it's still bad.

Other than that, I don't think I ever enjoyed and just had fun with a FE story like I did with Engage. The game knew it wasn't very serious and didn't take itself seriously so it was easy to chuckle along, but there were also several really nice and touching moments, mainly with Alear and Lumera (both times) or when facing Morion with Diamant or Alcryst that made me tear up a bit and were genuinely emotional. I do think the last act is the worst, but overall I did enjoy the story.

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Its a shame the game decided to try and give the Hounds some sympathy points that they didn't deserve. Zephia works quite well as villain with no redeemable traits so when at the last moment the game tries to pretend there's good in her I don't believe them. Her sincerely wanting a family also rings kinda hollow when the first thing she does after murdering Marni is joke about it. If Zephia was more conflicted about it the plotpoint might have worked, but she wasn't. 

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I personally really enjoyed Engage's story all the way through. The story knew what it was and what it wanted to be; little did it feel like it wanted to be a 100% legit war story, if just a telling of Alear's journey as an emblem. Though, I do feel like the story peaked at 22 and anything after that were the writers throwing ideas at a dart board with very little elaboration because there were only so many chapters left. Even for me, the entire time travel thing was just kind of unneeded and if they wanted to still pull the same idea of Alear fighting their past self, some sort of "we gotta fight fragments of the past now for w/e reason" deal would've worked just as fine. 

Ultimately, I still feel like the game wrapped nicely despite the shaky last stretch and overall, I had a really fun time.

I think it's easier to take in Engage's story if you rationalize it as a shounen/kids anime sort of story and personally, I think that fits. Engage is supposed to be an optimistic celebration of the series and it sure does nail the tone of one.

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13 hours ago, hanazono said:

I personally really enjoyed Engage's story all the way through. The story knew what it was and what it wanted to be; little did it feel like it wanted to be a 100% legit war story, if just a telling of Alear's journey as an emblem. Though, I do feel like the story peaked at 22 and anything after that were the writers throwing ideas at a dart board with very little elaboration because there were only so many chapters left. Even for me, the entire time travel thing was just kind of unneeded and if they wanted to still pull the same idea of Alear fighting their past self, some sort of "we gotta fight fragments of the past now for w/e reason" deal would've worked just as fine. 

Ultimately, I still feel like the game wrapped nicely despite the shaky last stretch and overall, I had a really fun time.

I think it's easier to take in Engage's story if you rationalize it as a shounen/kids anime sort of story and personally, I think that fits. Engage is supposed to be an optimistic celebration of the series and it sure does nail the tone of one.

This is a fair take on the story. I really enjoyed it myself, even though I know it's not perfect. For example, I also thought going to the past was a weird choice, but seeing Past Alear was so chilling and interesting that I didn't mind it. As for the villains getting sob stories, it was definitely really sudden and I would have appreciated foreshadowing at the very least, but I appreciate the attempt at depth after how one-dimensional most FE villains are (at least in the modern era).

19 hours ago, Azz said:

In any story, dying twice and being brought back both times

I didn't expect Alear to die a second time so quickly, but the payoff was great (both Alear crying and the resurrection) and I liked the explanation for why it happened so quickly so I didn't have a problem with it personally. It's funny to think about in hindsight though!

Edited by DefyingFates
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All in all I'm not nearly as harsh on the story as I thought I'd be. I consider it fine, and while the story is bland at least the tone is mostly fun. There are some things that annoy me like Elusia being able to easily take over about every castle, or the queens being exiled from the plot despite having pretty decent designs. 

The story is functional and somewhat entertaining which to me gives it a leg up compared to Fates and Awakening respectively. 

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I think it was funny Alear was constantly meeting up with the hounds and just letting them go after every encounter, but I personally don't mind silly moments like that. Overall I had a blast going through Engage's story (some moments were quite touching too).

I do know I popped off at the end of the game when Alear summons all the homies and they all come out one last time! With the music playing and all the emblems lined up that was awesome lol

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7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Her sincerely wanting a family also rings kinda hollow when the first thing she does after murdering Marni is joke about it. If Zephia was more conflicted about it the plotpoint might have worked, but she wasn't. 

Considering the next chapter shows where Zephia got her idea of family, her action about killing marni still line up. After all she regard Sombron like an idol, so when sombron told her to make family like him of course she will do exactly what sombron did: kill the "children" when they make big mistake like its the most deserving thing to do. (And gloat about it like sombron did to veyle)

More like pacing problem than motivation/action problem to me

6 hours ago, hanazono said:

Even for me, the entire time travel thing was just kind of unneeded and if they wanted to still pull the same idea of Alear fighting their past self, some sort of "we gotta fight fragments of the past now for w/e reason" deal would've worked just as fine. 

Ultimately, I still feel like the game wrapped nicely despite the shaky last stretch and overall, I had a really fun time.

The only thing i really dislike in engage is that: time travel.

Altho it was nice enough to see how alear before meeting lumera the first time, and also seeing the first (wrong) spark of interest/idea in family for zephia. Just wished the whole thing not presented as time travel

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1 hour ago, BloodRonin said:

I just want to know if we will ever have the foundations revealed. 

I hate how they sorta tried to make us feel sorry for the fel dragon? Screw him. Glad he died. 

Agree, his motives feel really dumb. I'm trying to recall any FE main villain with good story arc, but I do struggle to come up with any. I assume lot of people would say FE4 but even in that game I find the motives rather weak.

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25 minutes ago, Speedy said:

Agree, his motives feel really dumb. I'm trying to recall any FE main villain with good story arc, but I do struggle to come up with any. I assume lot of people would say FE4 but even in that game I find the motives rather weak.

Lyon from FE8? Though he's more a victim than anything. And at the risk of enraging part of this fanbase, Edelgard?

But yeah, FE doesn't have the best track record with villains.

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33 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

Lyon from FE8? Though he's more a victim than anything. And at the risk of enraging part of this fanbase, Edelgard?

But yeah, FE doesn't have the best track record with villains.

I guess victimized villains are not necessary bad arcs, I just dont really like them. I prefer more of a mastermind behind the curtain.

Also with victimized villain it usually means there is someone else behind them, so them you have to look at their motives.

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On paper, what's happening isn't that bad. There are some good ideas. Not overly original ideas. But good ideas nonetheless.

The problem lies in the execution. There's no buildup. Almost every problem is resolved mere moments after they're introduced. Some of the story justifications are just silly. And not the fun kind. I mean the gameplay element of chapter 11 is good. But the whole "haha I stole your ring while you weren't paying attention, aren't you dumb hihihi!" I mean come on, put some semi decent justification like some big explosion or something. Not "I'm the writer and I can't even be bothered to justify what must happen in the gameplay as specified by the battle designers".

I can deal with the usual silliness of letting the villains go after they're defeated even if they abuse this trope way too much here. I can deal with mono-dimensional stereotypical characters. I can deal with the avatar being lawful-good. I can even deal with the over-the-top avatar worship. It's just the cumulation of all that plus total absence of story construction plus abuse of cheap tropes like revealing the sob story of the villain at the very moment of their death which is makes it a very, very, very bad story, or at the very least a badly written one to the point I can't help but state it wasn't even written. They just pieced plot points together and called it a day.

It's a shame because it's otherwise the FE with the best presentation to date. Lots of cutscenes. Quite well done ones at that. They just tell a story which is actually painful to follow, and not for the reasons some stories could be purposely painful.

Edited by TheHBK
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On 2/8/2023 at 8:52 AM, TheHBK said:

The problem lies in the execution. There's no buildup. Almost every problem is resolved mere moments after they're introduced. Some of the story justifications are just silly. And not the fun kind. I mean the gameplay element of chapter 11 is good. But the whole "haha I stole your ring while you weren't paying attention, aren't you dumb hihihi!" I mean come on, put some semi decent justification like some big explosion or something. Not "I'm the writer and I can't even be bothered to justify what must happen in the gameplay as specified by the battle designers".

Yeah, this is my problem too.

The game suffers lots of bad execution plot wise, which is worse than the kinda bad/mediocre worldbuilding. I was dumbfounded at how Alear dies TWICE in the span of like...30 minutes. In what writing team is that acceptable? Or how Hortensia gets away with threatening a queen. And the scene with Zephia giving the good Veyle the ring. C'mon. They really need to think through why and how things happen.

The game needs to pace itself better. Sprinkle things in more evenly. Exposition/backstories/motivations for the hounds and Veyle, Alear's two deaths, Sombron's motives, everything could've been explored little by little in the 26 chapters we get. But I get that this is a fun romp, so it's going to be a little dumb-I just wish it was a campy, fun dumb when it goes there, like some of the characters. I also get that they didn't want endless cutscenes, but I'll take a ton of them if it explains more and makes that endgame less rushed.

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Good Veyle pretending to be bad Veyle is a fine idea itself, but that scene did leave me with a couple questions. Why did she only ask for Zephia's ring and not all of them? Why didn't she also throw the Marth ring, which she already had?

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They story is not great lol. I switched off early on and took it as a comedy, as I like how it's a bit more light hearted. I wonder if they had all the maps thought out first and struggled bridging point to point. imo FE is never known for having amazing plot, it's just for Engage is just far more obviously dumb, unlike say 3H (and don't get me wrong, excluding Echos, I think 3H has the best plot post Awakening despite it's issues)  It's funny to see people praising 3H's plot as almost immaculate, when I remember there being a ton of crazy discourse over 3H's story and routes during it's release. People were writing thesis for it. 

Some heavy moments were a bit cringe, when Marni died (why did she have to be a loli?? I couldn't take it seriously at all), when you got resurrected, and evil mommy in Ch25. That was supposed to be a sad moment, but was just so ridiculous. The whole thing was wild, but I don't hate it. Then at the very end they had that power rangers moment with all the FE Protaganists was hype, and so cheesy, but I loved it. It was really cool to see them all lined up like that, really makes you feel FE has come a long way. 
 

On 2/7/2023 at 8:00 AM, BloodRonin said:

I just want to know if we will ever have the foundations revealed. 

I hate how they sorta tried to make us feel sorry for the fel dragon? Screw him. Glad he died. 

Yeaaah that sucker can stay dead. The way he cruelly killed his children, his perspective on family, how he treated Veyle and the portag in the past, there's no coming back from that. I can't believe they would try to make us feel sorry for him. Screw him. I also did not like how they wanted us to feel sorry for Zephia and Griss, really after everything they did to us. That cut scene with them talking about family was really awkward. We never had any build up before hand compared to Mauvier. 
 

On 2/7/2023 at 10:11 AM, DefyingFates said:

Lyon from FE8? Though he's more a victim than anything. And at the risk of enraging part of this fanbase, Edelgard?

But yeah, FE doesn't have the best track record with villains.

Berkut in Echos was decent if he counts. Hardin in New Mystery was also ok (it's been awhile, but I don't think they went too deep into him plotwise tho. I was just surprised they chose him in the sequel). If it's a villian group, I also quite liked the Four Fangs in FE7. 

If we're talking about final big bads general tho, it's always some kind of beat the evil dragon and the evil sorcerer/king who summons it. I don't think it has ever been very deep. 
 

 

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On 2/6/2023 at 1:27 AM, scigeek101 said:

So I finished it, and while the map design was still pretty tight and fun in the late chapters. Chapter 25 being a really good map in general, the plot just really took a nosedive, it wasn't good from the start but somehow it just got even worse. I think starting with that chapter where Alear dies and gets revived twice. Then the whole Lumera stuff. It really felt like every chapter was just dumping some new BS on you that hadn't been fleshed out. The villains motivations, the zero emblem. It's just all around hot garbage. Really soured me on the game unfortunately I was enjoying from like chapter 5-20 though it wasn't good but the late game the plot is just infuriatingly bad. 

On 2/6/2023 at 2:08 AM, Viberum said:

The buildup to like literally everything was so weak that when the twists and reveals started happening I was just not interested at all. Veyle’s multiple personalities, Marni’s lore backdrop then immediate death, The dumb helmet thing, and then corrupted Alear??? Story started as a snoozefest and it somehow got worse.

At least in my opinion.

The biggest plot twist in the game for me was that Sombron got laid several times. Also, there are people on this forum whom I’m in complete agreement with on Engage’s story!?! 

 

Edited by Sidereal Wraith
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I think Sombron is an obvious weak link in the story. He's just kinda boring. Evil Veyle makes a spectacle of herself and is clearly in love with all the evil thing she does. Sombron however is not only an incredibly passive force who sits on his ass the entire game, but he also has a very tame, boring personality that's not really all that....heehee...engaging. 

At least fellow boring fell Dragon Grima had some sass in them but Sombron is just ''Hurr hurr I'm an evil dragon. Something something evil. Something something fell. I kill my kids. Insert bland evil statement here'' 

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23 hours ago, ruruo said:

If we're talking about final big bads general tho, it's always some kind of beat the evil dragon and the evil sorcerer/king who summons it. I don't think it has ever been very deep. 

The big problem with the big bads is two-fold I find. Either A) they keep their involvement in the background until the end, and/or B) they lack any meaningful development or characterization and if they get it, it tends to be plot dumped at the very end or you have to dig for it via other media or DLC.

For the former, offhand the only villains that have a clear notable involvement in the plot before the end are Julius/Loptous, Nergal (if you count him), Formortiis, Sombron, and maybe Ashnard. The rest are either sitting on their thrones either due to not being able to get involved due to plot reasons like Medeus or Ashera, or are more plot devices like the Fire Dragon.

For the latter, I feel this is what hurts them the most. I can count on one hand the amount of villains with interesting stories presented in the game, and even less that have it presented throughout the story. Sombron for instance has a backstory, but they plot dump it in the final chapter so by the time you're seeing it you may have already stopped caring about him and it's little too late to get invested. Some villains do get potentially interesting backstories in supplementary/additional materials, but it's supplementary so unless you look it up many players end up missing it. Medeus for instance suffers from that as his backstory plays into the themes of the Archanean games and the lore, but I can't blame anyone for not caring when it's easily skipped over in-game and the remakes didn't give it any depth. Finally, their characterizations are also a big problem as they tend to be generic evil baddies/tyrants with little else to them. Formortiis was doing snarky and manipulative evil overlord long before Grima and Julius/Loptous was playing with that before him, and let's not forget all of the evil dragons that tend to be different flavors of Medeus.

Honestly, whether you agree with them being villains or not, Edelgard and Rhea did their roles as the final bosses better because they are very present in the story with fleshed out motivations, backstories, and clear involvement. They're likeable in those roles because they have multifaceted characters that the story makes you care about, whether it's agreeing with them or hating them and that's something that needs to be done more with other final bosses. 

18 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Sombron is an obvious weak link in the story. He's just kinda boring. Evil Veyle makes a spectacle of herself and is clearly in love with all the evil thing she does. Sombron however is not only an incredibly passive force who sits on his ass the entire game, but he also has a very tame, boring personality that's not really all that....heehee...engaging. 

At least fellow boring fell Dragon Grima had some sass in them but Sombron is just ''Hurr hurr I'm an evil dragon. Something something evil. Something something fell. I kill my kids. Insert bland evil statement here'' 

I can agree with Evil Veyle being better, but I can't call Sombron the weak link when most of the villains are pretty bad. Honestly, I'd say I like the Four Hounds less then Sombron since at least he doesn't overstay his welcome and maintains his threat level throughout the story, the Four Hounds come off more like annoyances and fail more than they succeed. I also dislike how they tried to force sympathy points with their backstories and motivations, with Zephia in particular being bad as she wants a family and yet proceeds to treat the other Hounds like crap and kill Marni without any sort of remorse (quite the opposite in fact). 

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Just finished the game yesterday.

I think we have a competitor for the worst story in a FE game.

The weakest link of the story is Sombon not having sex with Zephia, obviously.

Also sometimes the game tells you "Emblems are very powerful items, its bearer is very strong !" and near the end "Meh, no wish anymore, Emblems are useless now".

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