Armor Knights or Generals should be scrapped

[Tacticslost]

So let me begin by saying armor knights have existed since FE1. Their purpose was to have high HP or defense to tank ridiculous amounts of damage. They have had access to generally lances/axes but sometimes have had swords or even bows ala FE3. Yet ever since FE 10 unless they are raised from the villager class or given a specific personal skill that helps reduce extra damage they feel useless to have. Ambush reinforcements are ever present in larger numbers than before and a lot of enemies like Saizo from Fates simply carry magic weapons on them making tanking with armor units pointless. They never get enough resistance to stop those or spells usually without talisman usage or reclass support. So even with the new "Break" system someone can still ignore a general with weapon advantage and probably double them enough to kill them because being slow isn't the problem. It's trying to face tank a fire ball or thoron.

Does anyone feel these classes should be scrapped and recreated from scratch in a new game? I have not had great luck with them and found that even the characters Louis and Jade lauded for being pretty good in this class still feel like trash to me unless reclassed. Both have now died and I've completely given up on the class as a result because my only remaining general option without reclass training may be... Saphir.

[BloodRonin]

On 2/5/2023 at 11:21 PM, Tacticslost said:

So let me begin by saying armor knights have existed since FE1. Their purpose was to have high HP or defense to tank ridiculous amounts of damage. They have had access to generally lances/axes but sometimes have had swords or even bows ala FE3. Yet ever since FE 10 unless they are raised from the villager class or given a specific personal skill that helps reduce extra damage they feel useless to have. Ambush reinforcements are ever present in larger numbers than before and a lot of enemies like Saizo from Fates simply carry magic weapons on them making tanking with armor units pointless. They never get enough resistance to stop those or spells usually without talisman usage or reclass support. So even with the new "Break" system someone can still ignore a general with weapon advantage and probably double them enough to kill them because being slow isn't the problem. It's trying to face tank a fire ball or thoron.

Does anyone feel these classes should be scrapped and recreated from scratch in a new game? I have not had great luck with them and found that even the characters Louis and Jade lauded for being pretty good in this class still feel like trash to me unless reclassed. Both have now died and I've completely given up on the class as a result because my only remaining general option without reclass training may be... Saphir.

 

I think they are situational in engage.  I make Louie a Great Knight on my 2nd maddening run, only because I wanted better movement. (but he can now get broken)

Jade was a general for me in my first run, and I had great success with her. I gave her Ike, and taught her the corrin skill to not take damage from chain attacks. That in combination with vantage, made her a true tank not to be messed with. That being said, without the chain attack skill from corrin learned, she would have died so many times.
I like they can't be broken, and it has actually really saved me a lot in the game. But I also could have had her a great knight and probably had the same success. IMO, they should have let them had a damage reduction skill build in, instead of giving those to unique classes only. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by BloodRonin

[Scaramuccia]

Armors are good enemy units that complicate many fights this is enough reason to keep them in the game. And I think that you underestimate them in Engage - fully invested General could do a lot of tanking. 

[know_naim]

2 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

because being slow isn't the problem. It's trying to face tank a fire ball or thoron.

Yeah, but come on - this is like saying "fliers should be scrapped, because they die from arrows". I'm not the biggest armoured tank fan either but I think the emblem mechanic actually does a good job of levelling the field a bit. Using Sigurd to run away feels bad but, well, works. Made a Tiki-tank recently and the amount of HP healed in late game is no joke. Roy has "Hold Out". There are quite a few ways to mitigate the problem. I had more fun with tanks in Engage than in previous games at least.  

[scigeek101]

I feel like the engage rings let you essentially mix and match your classes a bit without actually re-classing. Arguably I'd say Armor knights are better than ever in this one between that and the new break mechanic. 

That said I still do feel they are one of the overall worst unit class types but mostly that's because their utility is somewhat limited in this and most games. They are amazing in the early game when you need to protect squishy units, but if you're playing Fire Emblem optimally they start to fall off in the late game due to their low move range and your other units gaining levels and being able to play more aggressively. I typically don't bother fielding more than one armor Knight for choke point defense and late game they start to really lag behind. 

I think, Awakening was the one game where I basically never bothered with them, mostly due to the open map design largely rendering their main utility useless and the low MV making them feel really slow in a game where your high MV units paired up start clearing up the map before the armor Knight can even get in there. 

I guess they are even worse in genealogy. 

Three Houses it was pretty great to have one though the rechargeable warp spell charges helped a lot there to get them where you needed them to be and not feel like you were wasting your warp staves. 

[goomoonryong]

I feel they should at least buff the movement range of General to 5. At early game when everyone have 4 movement, Louis feels great as he move with the same speed as everyone. But later on, when everyone move faster and some characters can stack avoid to ridiculous level, he feels like a liability in the General class.  Great Knight feel much better in Engage due to having the same movement as Paladin, but sadly the General doesn't get the same treatment

[Armchair General]

4 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

Ambush reinforcements are ever present in larger numbers than before and a lot of enemies like Saizo from Fates simply carry magic weapons on them making tanking with armor units pointless.

Yeah, I'm filing this under "operator error."

 

4 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

They never get enough resistance to stop those or spells usually without talisman usage or reclass support.

If they've actually addressed this, then you would have an nearly invincible juggernaut; is this something that you really want?

4 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

So even with the new "Break" system someone can still ignore a general with weapon advantage and probably double them enough to kill them because being slow isn't the problem. It's trying to face tank a fire ball or thoron

Yeah, I can't really see how yours are dying, outside of.effective weaponry and being exposed to magic. But this is why I have someone else accompanying Louis...Usually. My last fight with him had an Royal Knight armed with an Ridersbane and Louis also had the same weapon...So yeah. The AI on Hard is cleverer, but suicidal.

 

20 minutes ago, goomoonryong said:

I feel they should at least buff the movement range of General to 5.

Well, this is one of the biggest drawbacks of Engage, unfortunately. However, the reduced movement is actually kind of helpful in the sense that you can't be simultaneously rushed by cavalry and infantry

Edited February 6, 2023 by Armchair General

[LukeB]

I feel like armored knights are actually in a pretty good spot in this game, given they have lost their old movement drawbacks since all infantry base classes have the same amount of move. -- And then they have the highest Defense by A LOT (They are + 8 over second place!), and then 2nd highest HP and 2nd highest Strength. 

They take no damage and they hit hard in return. 

On the other hand, I have not used any generals because that move penalty comes back, and you they only have 1 defense over a great knight. I think that generals getting the "immune to chain attack damage" as their class skill, instead of it being an Emblem skill would have given then a niche, but as it stands I don't see the need to ever run one

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

Ambush reinforcements are ever present in larger numbers than before

Reinforcements are one thing, but ambush spawns are another, as the latter generally don't give you a turn to react to their appearance.

5 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

a lot of enemies like Saizo from Fates simply carry magic weapons on them making tanking with armor units pointless.

To say magic weapons are that common is a blatant exaggeration. Because Saizo is literally the only enemy with a magic weapon on both of the maps he appears in.

5 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

They never get enough resistance to stop those or spells usually without talisman usage or reclass support.

Sounds like you want a nigh invulnerable juggernaut. Personally, though, this is literally talked about in the same chapter where you get Louis and Chloe. The game literally spells out that in general, you want units to work together. Or would you rather have fliers scrapped as well because arrows kill them easily? Also, Pure Water is a thing.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[joevar]

FE always had counterbalance in mind in almost many things. just because it cant tank on ethings doesnt make it bad. Try thinking in reverse: if a General can tank also spells, and a map is full of enemy generals, that would be like the game giving you a middle finger because now you can hardly kill one, let alone a map full of them.

theres always gonna be a counter to a class when they are too good at something, and that a good thing. just like how now a class can benefit more from avoid tile, spell can ignore that. so when the reverse situation happen, you can still deal with it without feeling unfair.

only bosses like final boss should ever have strong defense against anything. and even that would feel like a bad design

[Armchair General]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, Pure Water is a thing.

I'm not entirely sure if this will work if your General is being doubled, though. Honestly, I'd rather have someone be entirely immune to magic than trying to gamble with the RNG. I might use one with an Berserker or an Warrior, though.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The game literally spells out that in general, you want units to work together

Aside from being an nice piece of dialogue, we might need to go back to the days of playing through an scripted tutorial if people can't pick up on in-game context.

 

 

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

Yet ever since FE 10 unless they are raised from the villager class or given a specific personal skill that helps reduce extra damage they feel useless to have.

Effie is your literal brick to bash someones skull in with and Sedgar/Wolf are top tier men of steel.

What armors exist pre 10 that are good? Tauroneo before he leaves to become weak?

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

Ambush reinforcements are ever present in larger numbers than before

Which does not appear to be in itself a point against armored units. In fact, Gilbert suiciding on the reinforcements in TH chapter 5 and not aggroing the entire fucken map is a boon.

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

Saizo from Fates simply carry magic weapons on them making tanking with armor units pointless.

This is extra funny once you realize in CQ chapter 12 he´s paired with Kagero, wielding a Sting Shuriken. Which is effective against armors. And the games alos indicates with a warning sign.

By that logic we should also scrap Xander because he can get 1rko-ed by a Shining Bow Adventurer in chapter 16. Bad unit.

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

They never get enough resistance to stop those or spells usually without talisman usage or reclass support.

A very obvious flaw, and with the exception of SoV´s wonky Witch AI easily remedied by not putting the armor in front of the mage.

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

So even with the new "Break" system someone can still ignore a general with weapon advantage and probably double them enough to kill them because being slow isn't the problem.

I think there is a lesson to be had in Louis and Chloe joining at the same time in the same place, with physical enemies on the one side and mages on the other side, easily separating into two groups for the two to handle. I also think that not-Breaking of armors is a neat bonus, kinda like how fliers don´t need to give a shit about most terrain.

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

It's trying to face tank a fire ball or thoron.

I´m not far enough into Engage for Thoron yet, but doesn´t Lightning magic disallow follow-ups?

15 hours ago, Tacticslost said:

Does anyone feel these classes should be scrapped and recreated from scratch in a new game?

On the contrary, the class that needs to go is Fliers, specifically Wyverns. They have the same stats as any other physical class if not just plain more (TH Wyvern as the most blatant example), need not concern themselves with the soil of the common unit, can just outmove their only real counter, have good weapon types (Hand Axes, Javelins) etc. etc. Same goes for all the strong horsies like Titania, Seth.

Armors are balanced if not a dash underpowered throughout the series.

1 hour ago, Armchair General said:

I'm not entirely sure if this will work if your General is being doubled, though.

Justice for the Barrier staff! I dunno if they stack tho (in the games they exist).

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Armchair General said:

I'm not entirely sure if this will work if your General is being doubled, though. Honestly, I'd rather have someone be entirely immune to magic than trying to gamble with the RNG. I might use one with an Berserker or an Warrior, though.

Fair enough. Though in a pinch, 14 less damage taken can be the difference between life and death. I will admit, though, it might not be enough later on...

Edited February 6, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Speedy]

I actually find good use of armored unit in this game than any other FE title. Partialy because almost every unit movement sucks so I feel they dont fall behind that much, unless you go full on cav and fliers. But you really need to pay attention for the enemies, not only the mages, obviously, but also the backup units, cause those are the real pain of defensive unit.

[Armchair General]

22 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

but doesn´t Lightning magic disallow follow-ups?

Yeah, it doesn't do that kind of stuff in exchange for the extra range. In fact, Thoron is slightly stronger than Bolganone if your mage is naturally slow; otherwise you'll be missing out on an lot with your damage output

[DaveCozy]

Generals might not be as good as initially thought in Engage, but they still have situational uses that make them worth fielding imo. Their low move is what holds them back, and they do demand some kind of Warp or Rescue staff support to get where they need to be.

Some key e.g. for me being Ch15 and Ike's Paralogue. Maps that have chokepoints which let you keep them in key spots to avoid being overwhelmed and surrounded.

As for magic, I mean... they do need a weakness in terms of taking them down lol. Imagine if they were very magic resistant on top of being able to survive physical crits (and they can do the latter in Engage). That'd be an infuriating enemy to face.

I think Great Knight > General though in terms of overall usefulness, but it's handy to reclass to General when needed.

Edited February 7, 2023 by DaveCozy

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Actually, I think the last few games have proven something of a "turnaround" for the Armor Knight and General classes. In Fates, they excel in the stats they need to, aren't as hurt by "Javelins can't double" as most classes, and get a strong new option in Wary Fighter, to overcome their greatest weakness. In 3H, being able to defense-stack is a valuable niche on Maddening, as high speed, mid-Might classes (Swordmasters, Assasins, and Grapplers) abound. And in Engage, their low movement is shared by most other unpromoted classes, while they also enjoy immunity to the game-defining Break mechanic.

On 2/5/2023 at 11:21 PM, Tacticslost said:

Ambush reinforcements are ever present in larger numbers than before and a lot of enemies like Saizo from Fates simply carry magic weapons on them making tanking with armor units pointless.

Enemies with magical weapons are actually quite rare. You're unlikely to face more than one or two per map in most games that have them. Mages, and in some cases anti-Armor weapons, are actually more common of a threat.

On 2/5/2023 at 11:21 PM, Tacticslost said:

So even with the new "Break" system someone can still ignore a general with weapon advantage and probably double them enough to kill them because being slow isn't the problem. It's trying to face tank a fire ball or thoron.

I've found that, in Engage, while you can double enemy Armors with lighter tomes, their HP is high enough that you're often not one-rounding. And the higher-Might tomes that do over half per hit are either too heavy to do so (Bolganone), or contractually obligated not to double (Thoron, Warp Ragnarok). An Elsurge tome might get it done... ah, but then you're facing a melee counterattack. Without a crit, one-rounding enemy Armor Knights and Generals is a tall order.

On 2/6/2023 at 3:15 PM, Imuabicus said:

What armors exist pre 10 that are good? Tauroneo before he leaves to become weak?

Oswin more like Bosswin amirite?

[Scaramuccia]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:53 PM, LukeB said:

On the other hand, I have not used any generals because that move penalty comes back, and you they only have 1 defense over a great knight.

Don't forget better strength and S weapon access. It is an extreme case, but maxed Louis will have 10 more damage as a General than a Great Knight. 5 from max str, 5 from S weapon over A weapon.

[SumG]

I think generals are pretty great in this game, and I pity anyone who changed Louis into a Great Knight.  High physical defense is actually a thing in this game to reduce enemy attacks to 0, and health is high enough you likely won't get one-rounded by a single non-boss mage.  There's also a huge number of tools for units to improve their resistance.  Obviously there's Pure Water, though I think that's a poor option.  You can buy more resistance for SP if you're desperate.  You can get Resolve/Resolve+ for a healthy boost as well.  And if you're using Ike, which is an obvious synergy for a general, his Great Aether will also provide an extra 5 resistance the turn you use it.  You can use this to provide a bit of extra defense on the turn a mage is approaching you.

 

And the fact that Generals can't be broken is a huge benefit for enemy phase play.  I've found that my most consistent damage dealers on enemy phase are either generals or evasive, knife-wileding units (thieves/wolf knights).  Other units are too easily broken, preventing counterattacks, and enemies are bulky enough that dealing 20-30 damage to them on enemy phase is a big benefit.  Just slap a Spear/Tomahawk or Silver Greatweapon on them as the situation requires and let them go to town.  Then the rest of the party can clean up the scraps.

[LukeB]

18 hours ago, Scaramuccia said:

Don't forget better strength and S weapon access. It is an extreme case, but maxed Louis will have 10 more damage as a General than a Great Knight. 5 from max str, 5 from S weapon over A weapon.

I don't think that comparing max strength is very useful, given Louis seems unlikely to hit max strength before the end of the game. So, it is a strength difference of 2. Which I found the 2 move way more beneficial then I think that 2 damage on a unit that will never double could ever be.

Once you get the S tier weapon, that is probably a different story? At that point, the damage difference might be enough to consider

18 hours ago, SumG said:

I think generals are pretty great in this game, and I pity anyone who changed Louis into a Great Knight. 

Do you realize that most of what you said about General Louis is also true about Great Knight Louis? lol

Pure waters, Resolve, Ike - they all work on a great knight

The def difference between the two is...1. The Def growth rate is a difference of 0.05%, in other words, at level 20...1 point in defense.

 

So the real difference between the two, for most of the game, is : cannot be broken vs 2 move

I have found that with Great Knights getting two weapon types, avoiding getting broken is not usually too hard. Although, I can see this being a distinction in this game from hard to maddening. 

In Maddening, you cannot send even a great knight louis into a hoard of enemies in the late game, just because enemy damage is so damn high. He can bait a couple, but that is it. Making it easier to account for at most 2, maybe 3, units' weapon types. If as you say, in hard,  you can send him into a hoard of enemies, then the unbreakable passive might be more valuable then my experience on maddening

[SumG]

1 hour ago, LukeB said:

So the real difference between the two, for most of the game, is : cannot be broken vs 2 move

I have found that with Great Knights getting two weapon types, avoiding getting broken is not usually too hard. Although, I can see this being a distinction in this game from hard to maddening. 

In Maddening, you cannot send even a great knight louis into a hoard of enemies in the late game, just because enemy damage is so damn high. He can bait a couple, but that is it. Making it easier to account for at most 2, maybe 3, units' weapon types. If as you say, in hard,  you can send him into a hoard of enemies, then the unbreakable passive might be more valuable then my experience on maddening

I agree that this where the difference between the classes is.  I figure the raw stats and class abilities are similar enough.  My point is that in many previous Fire Emblem games, if a mage so much as looks at a general funny, the general explodes.  That is not the case in this game.

But I disagree with how useful having unbreakable is and think you are are vastly underselling it.  First, I find that even on hard a unit without unbreakable, even with access to two weapon classes, is going to end up getting broken significantly often in the situations you actually care about (i.e. situations where you're facing a wave of enemies of mixed weapon types simultaneously, not just baiting one or two isolated units).  If a unit gets broken, that means not only do they likely not counterattack (unless they managed to dodge the first hit but get hit by the follow-up, which sounds equally unlikely for both generals and great knights), but they can't counterattack during during the subsequent combat either.  That means that for those encounters, the great knight's strength isn't 1 lower than a general's.  It means that their strength is effectively 0.  Getting broken is a huge reduction in damage capability on enemy phase.  There is a significant difference in cleaning up enemies on the front line during the ensuing player phase when all the enemies are missing 20-40 HP and when they are all at full health because you didn't manage to attack due to being broken.

It goes beyond that, though.  I've not used Great Knight much to this point, but the little I've played with has left me deeply unsatisfied.  You're extremely dependent on matching the right weapon to the right situation.  That means you likely need both a Silver weapon (or similar) and a 1-2 range weapon for each of your weapon types (let's assume lance and axe, since that seems strongest and there isn't a good 1-2 range option in swords for Great Knights).  That means you're going to be switching between 4 weapons pretty regularly, which makes it much less profitable to commit to any engraving for any of those weapons.  Why waste one of your extremely scarce engravings, particularly one of the more valuable ones, on a weapon that's only going to be used ~25% of the time when the situation allows? 

But then that feeds into other issues as well.  Now, if you want to use the heavier weapons (i.e. a Tomahawk instead of a Hand Axe), you're going to be dealing with a ton of accuracy issues.  Hand Axes aren't accurate to begin with, and base Tomahawks are even worse.  Are you going to go with the stronger tier weapons, and deal with hit rates in the 50-60% range and the inconsistent damage that comes from that even with Fire Emblem's characteristic fudging of Hit Rates?  Or are you going to go with the more accurate weapons, and cede another 6-7 (or more) Mt to generals?  Moreover, because generals are constantly in combat, never get broken, and are able to use whatever weapon type they want, they make for fantastic use of your engravings.  My general Louis uses only two weapons for 90+% of his combat and nearly all of his tanking, a Silver Greatlance and a Spear.  Because he only uses two weapons, it's easy to have them engraved, and using engravings that most of the other units don't want to begin due to their Wt penalties (Academy and Binding, respectively).  Sure, nominally a Great Knight can use these engravings as well, but much less effectively, since presumably a Great Knight would only be able to use them 50% of the time for fear of being broken.

Yes, in terms of raw stats Great Knight is going to be on a similar level of damage output.  But I've found in practice that effective damage output of a general is so much higher than a Great Knight.  You never get broken and get completely blanked for two combats.  You're always able to use an amazing weapon with good accuracy to score significant damage to enemies.  Yes, when you get to maddening, I'm sure the effectiveness of this type of enemy phase play will be reduced due to an increase in enemy stats.  But I'd wager the difference in expected damage output between the classes (taking into account things like missed attacks due to being broke, misses due to lower accuracy, not being able to take as much advantage of engravings, and perhaps even voluntarily using weaker weapons to patch hit rate issues) is upwards of 10-15 damage/combat.  That's a huge amount.

The stats don't tell the whole story here.  Being unbreakable is an extremely strong ability.

Edited February 8, 2023 by SumG

[LukeB]

I am exclusively talking about maddening, because that is the only difficulty which I have played. I am happy to concede that on all lower difficulties, the unbreakable feature will be much more beneficial, and therefore the balance between generals and great knights is going to be very different. 

 

Just to offer some in play notes, I am on Chapter 17. 

From the starting positions There are 4 units to the north, and there are 3 units to the west. The 4 units to the north, have 40-45 physical attack. Louis dies to 3 hits. He can only safely go into the enemy range of TWO units. The 3 units to the west all have 47 physical attack, and all double regardless of his weapon. He can only safely go into the range of ONE unit. Being a general WOULD NOT allow me to take on more units then being a great knight. 

It is fairly easy, in my opinion, to make sure that Louis is not getting broken in either situation, because he is not facing down a ton of different weapon types. Also, units tend to be broken up into pairs/triples with the same weapon type. In this example, the west units all have axes, while the northern units have 2 lance fighters, whose ranges largely over lap and then 2 axe fighters a couple of squares behind. Either way that I go, I will only be facing a single weapon type on the baiting round of combat.

1 hour ago, SumG said:

since presumably a Great Knight would only be able to use them 50% of the time for fear of being broken.

This is not a fair assessment of how often they can use their best weapon. You can use your best weapon against 2 of the 3 weapon types as a great knight, meaning you are using it 66% of the time. 

 

Once again, I am happy to admit that not being broken is strong, but I also find a 2 move difference to be fairly large, so I am willing to make that trade to have to keep up with 2 weapons on him.