Gameplay changes you'd make to the Emblems

[Jotari]

So originally this was gpong to just focus in Leif as people are giving the kid a poor time in the tier list thread. But I have some other stuff to get off my chest regarding a few other Emblems. So why not discuss general gameplay changes for all of then.

First up Leif though. Everyone seems to like his idea, but the execution is awful. I have two solutions. One is a simple passove inheirable skill. Status immunity. Immunity to poison, freeze and entrap. Leif has status immunity in his own game to avoid soft lock and ut would make a great budget skill for him to pass on.

My second idea for Leif is S ranked weapon access. Broadly, I would like it if Emblems gave weapon type access when engaged instead of just specific weapons, but for Leif specifically, boosting all his weapon ranks to S when engaged would let him more fully utulize his gimmick. Sure it means carrying around weapons you don't use when not engaged, but it would be worth it to use all the best weapons in the game at once. Especially if your party composition means you have S ranked weapons you're just not using because you don't have the right classes.

I suppose just boosting all natural weapon ranks by 1 would be pretty useful too.

Of course an obvious fix for him would be to make Adaptability available without being engaged...only Adaptability isn't always good. And there's no real way to make it good without massively slowing down the game by asking you which weapon to use every time you're attacked. But maybe a perfect algorithms balancing avoid, hit, damage and ability to counter attack exists. I'll also add that he should have gotten a bow, as that's like the main times you want to be able to swap weapons on enemy phase.

Now, brief comments on some other Emblems.

Lyn should have got Sol Katti. I know everyone hates Sol Katti, but it just feels weaksauce to me that Lyn gets, effectively, a rapier for her level 10 weapon when Marth, Lucina and Eirika all get rapiers aa starting weapons. Hell I'm pretty sure Lucina's default rapier is better than Mani Katti. In other words, everyone has a rapier, give her dragon effectiveness, it'd be much more useful (assuming dragkn effectiveness even works on mosg dragons in the game, which people are saying it doesn't). Mani Katti can stay on the illusions. Or hell maybe have her dual wield them as a brave weappn with triple effectiveness. That would be ridiculously, but fun.

Speaking of those illusions,  they suck. Okay, not really, they are useful as body shields, but they suck in the way they're intended to be used. It's just not worth it to spend one of your enaged turns to summon them instead of killing something. Especially when it basically gaurantees you can't be danced that turn. Either have them not cost a turn to summon, or have them summoned automatically after using Astra Storm.

Micaiah, combine Shine and Thani. Look, Shine is a really great reference to the opening of Radiant Dawn, but there's three fog of war chapters in the gamd and you don't have Micaiah for one of them. Shine is getting nowhere on its own merits. Give the illumination effect to Thani and make it her default weapon. This would give a good tome option for non magical units using Micaiah and would give magic something that isn't just inferior to the tomes they already have outside of two maps. You then free up her final weapon space for Purge as another long range option (remeber she receoces Purge in 3-13).

I think Celica could actually ditch Ragnarok for Beloved Zofia. Ragnarok is already there in the form of warp Ragnarok, and by the time you unlock Ragnarok, there are basically only Corrupted Enemies left in the game, so lowly Seraphim is kind of better.

Ike, give luna effect to Great Aether. It seems to do the same ammount of damage as a regular hit? Meaning a lot of times you're better off just countering on enemy phase, especially if you're doubling.

[Acacia Sgt]

I know it will be controversial but...

I wouldn't have the starting Emblems be taken from you for the midgame.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[ra2bk]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Speaking of those illusions,  they suck. Okay, not really, they are useful as body shields, but they suck in the way they're intended to be used. It's just not worth it to spend one of your enaged turns to summon them instead of killing something. Especially when it basically gaurantees you can't be danced that turn. Either have them not cost a turn to summon, or have them summoned automatically after using Astra Storm.

The illusions are incredibly strong on a dodge tank. Doesn't matter if they have only 1HP if they can't be hit. And my dodgetank (Kagetsu) also had high crit, so they often killed in response. They also worked as intended as a juicy target for the AI. I didn't summon them every map, because sometimes things needed to die every turn, but I definitely used it more than I used a lot of other people's skills.

Demolish? Adaptable? I rarely used Blazing Lion or All For One. I don't think Divine Pulse triggered a single time in my run. I could see Instruct being just the thing you need that one time, but it was never really relevant for me. 

[CompteSecours]

Give Corrin a shuriken instead of a Wakizashi. And Dagger prof.

 

[SnowFire]

I think the Emblems are really well designed and I'd change very little about them.  Which is positive, but means I don't really agree with any of Jotari's suggestions, except for maybe giving Leif some minor power boost somewhere.  (But not weapon talent changing when engaged - keep something like that simple, it's dispiriting and complex to cart around a weapon and be told that surprise you can't use it anymore because you got disengaged.)

• Sol Katti is a bit troll in its home game where it doesn't really do anything aside from the minor Resistance boost.  Relevant weakness hitting weapons like Mani Katti are much more "interesting" and also useful.  And the reason why it's a level 10 weapon seems clear enough: Lyn is the "bow" Emblem, so she gets a bow first is all.
• Cloning doubles is well designed as-is and already plenty powerful.  First off, the Lyn user won't always be in range of enemies, and it's a safe turn to use them.  It's also not uncommon to know a big fight is coming next turn, engage just before and drop doubles, and be ready to brawl next turn.  Lastly, the "distraction" factor on the doubles is sufficiently large and potent that making it even easier to use would make it more centralizing.  Echoes style Invoke is powerful enough as a one-time action, making it "free" cuts out a decision the player has to make about what they're prioritizing.
• On Micaiah and Purge: I think that they made a conscious decision to greatly restrict "Siege Tome" style effects for the PC in-game without DLC, which makes Lyn's Astra Storm feel properly unique.  I feel like this would take up too much of Micaiah's "power budget"; I'm a little skeptical about DLC Soren getting Bolting, but it basically makes this long-range ability their "thing."  Shine is at least very flavorful for the Dawn Maiden.
• Ragnarok is probably too iconic to Celica to leave off, being her most powerful spell, her combat art on Beloved Zofia, and her base form's spell in FEH.  I agree that map design makes it much weaker than it should be, but I don't think that outweighs the flavor concerns of players expecting Ragnarok on Celica.  Oh well.  (Kinda like how Failnaught hits weakness on Dragons, an effect Claude can make use of all of twice, and only optionally at that.)
• Great Aether is already stylish and usable as-is.  Let Alcryst have his niche!

[Florete]

Just some quick ideas.

Leif's Adaptability could be something you set on player phase how it works. Choose from options like: damage (switches to what deals the most damage), defense (switches to what will let the user take the least damage), avoid (switches to what will reduce foe hit the most), etc. That way the game will (hopefully) prioritize the weapon you actually want to use instead of just going for weapon triangle, which is ironic since the primary use for weapon triangle in this game is player phase only. I know he has Arms Shield, but a lot of units don't get much/anything out of that.

Marth's Perceptive should also give the avoid whenever the user has WTA. This gives it value on enemy phase where avoid is usually more valuable.

Roy should get Advance+, moving the user 2 spaces, and perhaps also allows for 1 space movement with a ranged attack.

Some of Celica's kit really just seems poorly thought out. Holy Stance isn't the kind of skill you want to be getting much use out of at all, especially with Resonance on top of it. Resonance honestly needs to be better as it is; if you don't want to give it more power (which I would, personally), at least give it +hit/crit or something. I think Holy Stance would be better as some sort of riposte skill; perhaps it gives +avoid, maybe 15, and whenever the user dodges they do an extra attack at 50% damage (like Marth's Break Defenses).

[Scaramuccia]

4 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I know it will be controversial but...

I wouldn't have the starting Emblems be taken from you for the midgame.

Quite the opposite I would like to disable DLC emblems in the midgame.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, ra2bk said:

The illusions are incredibly strong on a dodge tank. Doesn't matter if they have only 1HP if they can't be hit. And my dodgetank (Kagetsu) also had high crit, so they often killed in response. They also worked as intended as a juicy target for the AI. I didn't summon them every map, because sometimes things needed to die every turn, but I definitely used it more than I used a lot of other people's skills.

Demolish? Adaptable? I rarely used Blazing Lion or All For One. I don't think Divine Pulse triggered a single time in my run. I could see Instruct being just the thing you need that one time, but it was never really relevant for me. 

But that's not how they're intended to be used. Their meant to perform chain attacks with Lyn. They're no doubt way better than intended for defense, but way worse than intended for offense.

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I think the Emblems are really well designed and I'd change very little about them.  Which is positive, but means I don't really agree with any of Jotari's suggestions, except for maybe giving Leif some minor power boost somewhere.  (But not weapon talent changing when engaged - keep something like that simple, it's dispiriting and complex to cart around a weapon and be told that surprise you can't use it anymore because you got disengaged.)

• Sol Katti is a bit troll in its home game where it doesn't really do anything aside from the minor Resistance boost.  Relevant weakness hitting weapons like Mani Katti are much more "interesting" and also useful.  And the reason why it's a level 10 weapon seems clear enough: Lyn is the "bow" Emblem, so she gets a bow first is all.

Sure, Sol Katti sucks because it's too heavy, but it still does exist and it is Lyn's legendary weapon. It should have been Mulagir from the start, but we live in the timeline where Sol Katti exists. And since dragons are so troublesome in this game, more options to take them down would have its uses.

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

• Ragnarok is probably too iconic to Celica to leave off, being her most powerful spell, her combat art on Beloved Zofia, and her base form's spell in FEH.  I agree that map design makes it much weaker than it should be, but I don't think that outweighs the flavor concerns of players expecting Ragnarok on Celica.  Oh well.  (Kinda like how Failnaught hits weakness on Dragons, an effect Claude can make use of all of twice, and only optionally at that.)

I don't think people would really complain as it's still there in her Emblem Attack.

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

• Great Aether is already stylish and usable as-is.  Let Alcryst have his niche!

I'm not suggesting removing the Sol effect. I'm suggesting making it straight up better and more like it is in the original game.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Jotari

[ra2bk]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But that's not how they're intended to be used. Their meant to perform chain attacks with Lyn. They're no doubt way better than intended for defense, but way worse than intended for offense.

Not sure why you say that. Flying units literally give +avoid to the images as their unit type bonus. illusions that go in the spaces around you are clearly at least partially made for defense. As mentioned in another comment, they chain attack from anywhere, so at times I would just deploy them at a random section of the map if I had nothing to do (and didn't need to Astra Storm that round), knowing they'd be around for the next 2 or 3 attacks.

Edited February 18, 2023 by ra2bk

[goodperson707]

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

(Kinda like how Failnaught hits weakness on Dragons, an effect Claude can make use of all of twice, and only optionally at that.)

Do you mean Failnaught (well falling star in 3H) in engage or 3H? Since in Engage it's not really used by just Claude. (I suppose it's not fully locked in 3H either )

 

I don't think that's true in either though, In 3h can't you use it on all the (non flying as redundant) demonic beasts and in engage you have wyrms (and fell dragons with some help) to use it on. 

[lenticular]

The big thing I'd want to do is get rid of the link between Emblems and weapon proficiencies for reclassing. There are big chunks of time when you don't have anyone available who can pass down various weapon types, with arts, staves, and tomes getting the worst of it. I don't think that this adds anything of substance to the game; it just creates some weird and arbitrary blocks to reclassing that I don't think are very fun.

As for what I'd change it to, I don't really mind. There are lots of other systems that could work. But I think that my choice would be to have completely free reclassing, but make being synced with an Emblem give bonuses to associated weapon level, similarly to how natural proficiencies currently do.

For individual Emblems:

For Leif, I think that my proposed change to weapon proficiencies would make him a little better, so that would be a start. But, honestly, I think I'd probably just scrap his overall design and start over. I just don't think that it works. I've never played Thracia 776, though, so I don't really know what to suggest as an alternative that would feel flavourful for him.

I think I'd probably nerf Corrin a little bit. Doesn't have to be much. Even something as small as reducing the avoid bonus from the fog Dragon Vein by 5%. I think Corrin is a lot of fun to use and I'm happy for her to stay very powerful, I'd just like to see it brought down by a notch.

I don't think that Lyn needs changing. I agree that the chain attack part of her illusionary doubles is pretty weak, but I'm OK with that. The rest of what she offers is so good that having one aspect of one of her abilities be a little bit clunky (but still useful at times) is absolutely fine.

For Byleth, I don't like a lot of the choices for Engage weapons. Aymr has turned from a fast-attacking weapon with Raging Storm in Three Houses into a slow and ponderous smash weapon in Engage. Blutgang is for Backup classes only, does magic damage, and has less range and damage than a levin sword, making it hard to imagine exactly who would want it. Rafail Gem gives Qi Adepts immunity to crits and effective damage, which is astonishingly worthless. I'd give Aymr the niche of being a smash weapon that can strike first (and cancels the opponent's retaliation if it works), I'd give the Feters of Dromi to Qi Adepts, and I'd give Thunderbrand to Backups.

A common complaint with Celica is that she's decent early on, but drops off a lot in the late game. So I'd tweak her so that she scales better. Either replace Ragnarok with something else or keep it but increase its stats. Give more scaling to Resonance. Instead of having Resonance+ at bond level 16, have Resonance+ at 11 (still giving +3) and then Resonance++ at level 16 (with either a +4 or +5 bonus).

[Dark Holy Elf]

9 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I wouldn't have the starting Emblems be taken from you for the midgame.

I actually think taking them away was an inspired choice, far moreso than I expected at first. I'm not going to talk about story here, just gameplay.

Like, let's say you never lost the emblems. I think the problem there is... would you really be excited about some of the later emblems? I suspect many players would virtually ignore some of the later ones, they'd already have an established team with established emblems they're happy with. Especially if they have the DLC.

Taking the first six away allows them to give you the second six while you have fewer options. This naturally makes getting every one of them much more exciting. And as you get the first set back, there's a familiarity and anticipation: you want to get Sigurd back so you can make someone super-mobile again (not to mentions get back to spreading Canter around), you want to get Micaiah back to do wacky things with your cool new staves. I think it's a good feeling overall.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

The big thing I'd want to do is get rid of the link between Emblems and weapon proficiencies for reclassing. There are big chunks of time when you don't have anyone available who can pass down various weapon types, with arts, staves, and tomes getting the worst of it. I don't think that this adds anything of substance to the game; it just creates some weird and arbitrary blocks to reclassing that I don't think are very fun.

Strongly agree with this. Heck, with how little it costs to raise bond those early bond levels, the cost to acquiring new proficiencies comes close to feeling nominal... except when you don't have access to an emblem with said weapon.

 

Also, count me among the folks who think the illusions are just fine, even for offence. You actually can dance for the Lyn-user the turn they summon, it just takes another action to reposition one of the clones. But even if you don't, yeah, it's the type of thing you pop the turn before you expect a tough fight. That makes it situational, you won't always have a free turn like that, but a free 40% of an enemy healthbar on all your attacks for the next 2-3 turns is certainly nothing to sneeze at, even ignoring its defensive applications.

Agreed that Mani Katti as a second engage weapon feels a touch disappointing especially when Lyn's most obvious direct comparison is Lucina who starts with her Noble Rapier - I'd prefer Sol Katti as well. Of course, Sol Katti would probably suffer from the same issue that afflcts other wyrmslaying weapons in this game, the choice to make fell dragons not be dragons.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

I suppose just boosting all natural weapon ranks by 1 would be pretty useful too.

 

This is a neat idea. It'd open up lots of options you might not otherwise have and would create a clear niche for the emblem that right now I feel it lacks. I also like status immunity, although it's not emblem-defining. I actually didn't know that about Leif from Thracia, but it explains a lot!

[Acacia Sgt]

13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Like, let's say you never lost the emblems. I think the problem there is... would you really be excited about some of the later emblems?

Yes. Why wouldn't I?

13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I suspect many players would virtually ignore some of the later ones, they'd already have an established team with established emblems they're happy with. Especially if they have the DLC.

On the contrary, it's more upsetting to have your established team disrupted and forced to start again from mostly scratch.

It's also why I'm not fond of RD's forced team changes outside Part 4 as well. The first Emblems feel they got treated like the Dawn Brigade. You get to use them at first... then get swept aside. More so when you consider the Emblems you get during the midgame are the more popular ones. Just like how the Greil Mercs are compared to the Dawn Brigade. If anything, the first Emblems needed to be the ones with the higher presence and relevancy to help them out, so missing out for the whole midgame hurts them. Like what I also feel should've been done with the DB.

Either way, the latter Emblems bring their own things to the table, it'd be foolish to ignore them. Even if you already have set things, you are also still getting new characters. So there's still room for experimentation without needing to change what you already have too much.

13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Taking the first six away allows them to give you the second six while you have fewer options. This naturally makes getting every one of them much more exciting. And as you get the first set back, there's a familiarity and anticipation: you want to get Sigurd back so you can make someone super-mobile again (not to mentions get back to spreading Canter around), you want to get Micaiah back to do wacky things with your cool new staves. I think it's a good feeling overall.

You're eventually getting all of them anyway. So it matters little since you're always going to get six while you have the other six already. I mean, I don't need to lose the rest to get excited to get new ones.

So I just don't see it as a good feeling at all. It's more distressing and stressful... but that's admittedly also counting the story aspects to it.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

I'd give Aymr the niche of being a smash weapon that can strike first (and cancels the opponent's retaliation if it works),

That would actually be a kind of cool way of implementing Raging Storm without actually implementing Raging Storm (course they actually did implement Raging Storm anyway on DLC).

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

I'd give the Feters of Dromi to Qi Adepts, and I'd give Thunderbrand to Backups.

Aas someone who has put Canter on all of my Qi Adepts I can confirm they would very much appreciate that. As far as Byleth's weapon choices go I've seen little to convince to stick him on anything other than a Sage.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I actually think taking them away was an inspired choice, far moreso than I expected at first. I'm not going to talk about story here, just gameplay.

Like, let's say you never lost the emblems. I think the problem there is... would you really be excited about some of the later emblems? I suspect many players would virtually ignore some of the later ones, they'd already have an established team with established emblems they're happy with. Especially if they have the DLC.

Taking the first six away allows them to give you the second six while you have fewer options. This naturally makes getting every one of them much more exciting. And as you get the first set back, there's a familiarity and anticipation: you want to get Sigurd back so you can make someone super-mobile again (not to mentions get back to spreading Canter around), you want to get Micaiah back to do wacky things with your cool new staves. I think it's a good feeling overall.

Agreed. Losing Emvlems ua great dor gameplay and story. And  much as I dislike fighting the same four enemies over and over, it does make boss battles more interesting. Celica Griss being a standout example. Without losing the Emblems they'd either have to stagger the rate acquisition a lot more pr just have you stop foghting Emblem enemies half way through.Agreed. Losing Emblems is great for gameplay and story. And  much as I dislike fighting the same four enemies over and over, it does make boss battles more interesting. Celica Griss being a standout example. Without losing the Emblems they'd either have to stagger the rate acquisition a lot more or just have you stop fighting Emblem enemies half way through. By giving them then taking them they effectively give you an emblem 18 times in the game (plus or minus 2/1 for acquiring two at once and the Fire Emblem), giving you a constant new stream of new ways of defining your team.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Of course, Sol Katti would probably suffer from the same issue that afflcts other wyrmslaying weapons in this game, the choice to make fell dragons not be dragons.

Yeah that's like an issue of its own that just needs fixing in general.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Jotari

[Technoweirdo]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Agreed that Mani Katti as a second engage weapon feels a touch disappointing especially when Lyn's most obvious direct comparison is Lucina who starts with her Noble Rapier - I'd prefer Sol Katti as well. Of course, Sol Katti would probably suffer from the same issue that afflcts other wyrmslaying weapons in this game, the choice to make fell dragons not be dragons.

Oh, Sol Katti wouldn't suffer from dragon slayers not killing fell dragons. It'd suffer from existing alongside 17 Mt, +5 Spd-giving Mulagir that also happens to be a dragon slayer. 😛 Marth's Falchion is 12 Mt by the way.  

But back to Mani Katti itself, its biggest issue is Mt in a game where Paladins are kind of tough, Great Knights are really tough, and Generals are "Don't do it". Rapiers in general suffer from it, but Mani Katti especially so. If you're expecting it to perform like it did in older games, you're in for a rude awakening.

...Incidentally, at 6 Mt, it does 1 more damage than just shooting the Paladin with Mulagir.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Technoweirdo

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, Technoweirdo said:

Oh, Sol Katti wouldn't suffer from dragon slayers not killing fell dragons. It'd suffer from existing alongside 17 Mt, +5 Spd-giving Mulagir that also happens to be a dragon slayer. 😛 Marth's Falchion is 12 Mt by the way.  

Wait, Mulagir has dragon effectiveness?  Huh. Well that makes sense given the lure. It would step on the toes of my Sol Katti hypothetical a but, but, being a sword and being available before her paralogue would still give it functionally.

[LukeB]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:00 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

I know it will be controversial but...

I wouldn't have the starting Emblems be taken from you for the midgame.

I think that the game is better for it. In my first playthrough, I was already thinking that I seemed to be rapidly approaching the point where everyone would be able to have a ring, and thought that that was bad from a strategic choice perspective. Losing your starting rings fixed that issue. The other alternatives like not giving you half the rings until the very end of the game, feels much worse then what is currently implemented. 

[LukeB]

Things that I would change:

-Give us arts proficiency from someone, somewhere, in the early parts of the game. Having the Martial Monk / High Priest / Martial Master line completely unavailable for reclass until Byleth feels bad. 

-Celica's self damage should happen when the Celica unit attacks, not at the start of combat. 

-Make Leif's Adaptability actual smart. 

-Not something I actually thought of, but I will second the person who said Byleth should give Fetters over Raphael Gem for Qi Adepts. If I actually sat and thought for a bit, I might have more thoughts on the weapon choices Byleth gives out.  

 

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, LukeB said:

Things that I would change:

-Give us arts proficiency from someone, somewhere, in the early parts of the game. Having the Martial Monk / High Priest / Martial Master line completely unavailable for reclass until Byleth feels bad. 

Need to retcon Roy into a punching machine in a Binding Blade remake!

[Acacia Sgt]

Oh yeah, something else I want to share. Going on the notion of the Emblem theft never happening, then that would require a small restructuring on when you get the Emblem themselves to compensate. One thing I thought up was: "What if you got the Emblems in game order"? Thus, I came up with this:

* Sigurd is also taken when the attack on Lythos happens.
* Micaiah is actually taken when the Elusians attack Firene, or alternatively, it's not in Firene to begin with. Perhaps even in Elusia with Lyn, so they get a head start of two instead of one. Point is, Micaiah is not first obtained when she is.
* Instead of Leif, it's Sigurd who Ivy uses in Chapter 8.
* King Morion does take Roy with him to fight King Hyacinth. So when he gets struck down, Roy is taken by Elusia.

So this means you get Marth then Celica then Sigurd... and that's it, by the time chapter 10 rolls by. With only three Emblems, Alear and company know better and flee when they do have the chance. Then again, on a separate matter, I've thought it would've been more interesting if Lumera had died at this point instead when she originally did. As a way to explain how they escaped, since we... don't really get explained how that happened despite the situation. In any case, after this:

* Ivy only managed to recover one ring, and it's Leif. Alternatively, it can still be two Rings, so it's also Roy alongside Leif.

Now, in order to keep it in game order, that means neither Corrin nor Ike can get acquired during the Solm chapters. Corrin is easy since, being in an isolated ruin, the Hounds could just get there first. Ike's harder, but perhaps during the Elusian attack on the castle they manage to take it... because turns out Timerra didn't had the Ring after all. When you hear stuff like "maybe it's in the doodad drawer or something", that just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen... and perhaps it will. So the Ring gets taken because of that. Then after this:

* If Ivy only recovers one Ring, then Hortensia brings Roy with her. If Ivy still brought two, then either Hortensia's Ring doesn't get recovered (with three Hounds present, it wouldn't be hard to justify it), or she brings Lyn with her and is recovered.
* Depending on the above, then Rosado and Goldmary are the ones to bring Lyn to the party, or simply bail out on their own to reunite with Hortensia.

After this the only changes would be who is carrying which Emblem when you fight them. So Corrupt Hyacinth would have Eirika and Veyle would toss Ike to Alear, and so on for the remaining Emblems.

Maybe not the most elegant of ways, but it's one.

[SumG]

The way Lyn's moveset is designed feels bad to me.  Summoning the doubles feels awful because in all likelihood you're only going to get benefit from them for 1 combat.  Assuming you have a standard 3 turn engage, one turn is likely to be the emblem attack (which the doubles don't chain on), one turn is summoning the doubles, and one turn is actually attacking with them.  You're liable to do more damage if you just basic attack both turns instead.  The doubles function better as a defensive wall than as attack support, and while from a gameplay perspective that's fine from a character representation perspective it sucks.  The doubles are supposed to represent the awesome crit animations from Lyn's game, and the best use of them is as a defensive wall?  Big miss.  I'd say make the doubles automatically summoned when the user engages, but the tradeoff is they are incorporeal, can be dispatched by an enemy simply moving into their square, and can't block off areas.

For Roy, I almost like the engage ability.  It can attack units in three adjacent squares, which can be nice, and the terrain control can be handy.  But the terrain control is much weaker because you can't use the emblem ability unless there is an enemy present on the square you want to use it on.  All to often, I found myself having to decide between either not using the engage ability or using it in a less than ideal position because that's where an enemy happened to be.  If you're giving us an AoE effect with terrain control, please just let us use it freely on any space.  Given how Roy is largely considered in the bottom half of the emblems, I think he can just be given this capability.

For Byleth, I wish you just got to choose what weapon you had access to when engaged instead of having it be class based.  There are a bunch of times where you'd really rather have a different Hero's Relic, and it feels bad when you're halfway through a mission and engage only to find out you don't have the weapon you thought you did.

And this is more of a general note, but one of Micaiah or Celica needs to have some sort of skill that an offensive mage actually wants to purchase.  Seriously, what are the best abilities for a Sage, Mage Knight, or Ivy/Hortensia to pick up in the game?  Canter?  Staff Mastery?  The Magic stat increases are comically overpriced.  Magic Resonance seems fun in the first couple of chapters, but becomes irrelevant halfway through the game.  My suggestion is to make Echo an inheritable ability.  At least there would be some utility to being able to finish off a unit, then get some chip damage in elsewhere.

Lastly, as a general idea, I would revisit the idea that you can't stack certain abilities when you've equipped the emblem ring.  I really don't see why you couldn't have Resolve x2 or Wrath x2 while holding Ike (or whatever else) if you're willing to commit the SP and emblem ring to it.  Maybe some abilities would be awkward to implement (e.g. Alacrity), but most should be fine.  (And as a side note, imagine this combined with my proposed Echo inheritable ability.  Stacking Echo would effectively allow a mage to attack twice at full power while engaged, which would definitely help with Celica's late game power issues.)

[LukeB]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

After this the only changes would be who is carrying which Emblem when you fight them. So Corrupt Hyacinth would have Eirika and Veyle would toss Ike to Alear, and so on for the remaining Emblems.

Maybe not the most elegant of ways, but it's one.

This would be a functional option, slowing down the ring acquisition. However, I think it would be worse.

I feel like how few chapters we would have access to Byleth/Corrin would feel pretty bad.

Of the options between:

Slowing down ring acquisition - so some rings are only avaliable for a very limited number of chapters

Same rate of acquisition but never lose them - so our ring to deployment slot is much higher

How it is, losing them half way

 

I think losing them is the best option.

There are likely other options that would [skip being robbed + allow limited rings avalaibke at once pre end game + let each ring be avaliable for enough chapters] but they would likely require massive overhauls of the narrative steucture [Like, a Alm/Celica situation where one party find half and another finds the other half], but anything like that is going to have more implications then just "let's not take away the rings"

 

Obviously, having the rings stolen does not *feel* good, but I think it is good for the game play of the game. And I don't think games owe it to us to feel good, when narratively we are suffering a set back.

[LukeB]

I do wish Alear was less whiney as it happened though. His reaction to being robbed was pretty badly done imo

Edited February 19, 2023 by LukeB
typo

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, SumG said:

The way Lyn's moveset is designed feels bad to me.  Summoning the doubles feels awful because in all likelihood you're only going to get benefit from them for 1 combat.  Assuming you have a standard 3 turn engage, one turn is likely to be the emblem attack (which the doubles don't chain on), one turn is summoning the doubles, and one turn is actually attacking with them. 

In fairness, you likely have a 4 turn engage for well over half of Lyn's existence, so that's an extra turn of offence. And another each time you dance, since "attack with extra 4 chain attacks" is probably one of the things most worth dancing for (it should erase an HP bar from most bosses, for instance). And there's no lost normal attack if there isn't anything in range the turn you summon the clones... granted this won't always come up and needs some forward planning. But I think the clones are honestly fine for offence.

Definitely agree about Roy. I generally think it's a bit annoying when you can't target an empty panel for AOE attacks.

3 hours ago, SumG said:

For Byleth, I wish you just got to choose what weapon you had access to when engaged instead of having it be class based.  There are a bunch of times where you'd really rather have a different Hero's Relic, and it feels bad when you're halfway through a mission and engage only to find out you don't have the weapon you thought you did.

You can certainly argue the game needs to be more obvious about which weapon goes with which class type, but I think just choosing your weapon does lose some of the tradeoffs you have yo consider. In particular, you'll notice Mystics (the weakest class of mages at base) tend to get stronger emblem bonuses than cavalry or fliers, and in Byleth's case this shows up in them getting Thyrsus, which I think is neat.

3 hours ago, SumG said:

And this is more of a general note, but one of Micaiah or Celica needs to have some sort of skill that an offensive mage actually wants to purchase.  Seriously, what are the best abilities for a Sage, Mage Knight, or Ivy/Hortensia to pick up in the game?  Canter?  Staff Mastery?

Reposition, Speed+X, plus what you said. Maybe some other stat skills situationally according to taste. And that's just the low-priced options, you can also do heavy investment like Draconic Hex or Hold Out or Speedtaker. Nobody lacks for good skill options. I do agree that Magic+X (And Strength+X) feels weirdly overpriced considering how inexpensive speed is.

37 minutes ago, LukeB said:

I do wish Alear was less whiney as it happened though. His reaction to being robbed was pretty badly done imo

Yeah I thought this scene was incredibly weak. From "I grabbed your rings while you weren't looking!" to Alear's reaction as you note to the completely unexplained escape after. Speaking of which...

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I've thought it would've been more interesting if Lumera had died at this point instead when she originally did. As a way to explain how they escaped, since we... don't really get explained how that happened despite the situation.

Definitely agree; I think that'd have worked much better. Also this would give us more than 1.5 chapters to get to know Lumera, so her death would have a bigger impact. (She'd still spend all her screentime with a big "doomed" sign hanging over her, such is the way of the Fire Emblem Parent Figure.)

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:23 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

It's also why I'm not fond of RD's forced team changes outside Part 4 as well. The first Emblems feel they got treated like the Dawn Brigade. You get to use them at first... then get swept aside. More so when you consider the Emblems you get during the midgame are the more popular ones. Just like how the Greil Mercs are compared to the Dawn Brigade. If anything, the first Emblems needed to be the ones with the higher presence and relevancy to help them out, so missing out for the whole midgame hurts them. Like what I also feel should've been done with the DB.

This might explain the different attitudes here. I personally love Radiant Dawn's structure, and am keenly awaiting the next game that has you play multiple parties. ...I guess that was Echoes, wasn't it.

Anyway, getting the lost rings back is really cool - just like getting to play as the Dawn Brigade again, in the middle of Part III. I think the game was strengthened, not weakened, by its "ensemble" format that gives multiple main characters their own opportunity to shine. Just as, in this case, the Rings that come in your hour of need mean so much more than just being the seventh and eighth to add to a growing collection.

On 2/17/2023 at 12:01 PM, Jotari said:

Lyn should have got Sol Katti.

Look, I know you're keen on Sol Katti, but overwriting Mani Katti is a big red line to cross. The Mani Katti is, like, the second or third-most important weapon in FE7 (after Durandal and, maybe, Armads). It actually has a plot presence and lore around it, unlike the vast majority of Rapier-type weapons (how did Hector get the Wolf Beil? Where did Eirika's Rapier come from? Who knows?). It represents Lyn's first big victory on her voyage to Caelin. It contains her Sacaean heritage, embodying the spiritual teachings of her people. And it selects her, as one who is destined to achieve great things. A version of Lyn without the Mani Katti would be naught more than a cheap imitator.

Anyway, some changes I have in mind:

Lyn and Micaiah swap places in the story, and in terms of when you obtain them. The difficulty of their paralogues is rescaled accordingly. 

Byleth now teaches in everything (except for knives), because... well, he's a teacher. He has one job. To compensate, there are fewer Luck+ skills (now just 3/6/9/12). Also, he now gives Freikugel to Backup units, the Lance of Ruin to Cavalry, the Fetters of Dromi (+1 Mov, free Canter) to Covert, and Thunderbrand to Dragons.

Corrin's first weapon is the Yato (base form). At level 10, she adds the Moon Festal (1-2 range Recover), and the Yato becomes the Noble Yato. At level 15, she gains the Dragonstone (a 1-range Smashing art that does magical damage), and the Yato becomes the Blazing Yato. Finally, at level 20, the Yato becomes the Omega Yato. This is all true... for even-numbered turns. On odd-numbered turns, the Moon Festal is replaced by Lightning (1-2-range brave tome), the Noble Yato by the Grim Yato, and the Blazing Yato by the Shadow Yato. Likewise, Corrin now teaches Tomes, Staves, and Arts, in addition to Swords. One last thing: while Dragon Vein can still be used while not Engaged, it will only affect one tile at a time - and not the one the user is standing on (sorry, Coverts). While Engaged, Dragon Vein is as effective as the version in the base game.

Roy's Wyrmslayer is replaced by a Killing Edge. The Binding Blade now does effective damage against Dragons. Also, his "Hold Out" skills have their cost to inherit cut in half, across the board.

Sigurd gives the character a "ghost horse" to ride (this is important), and also imparts a weakness to Ridersbane and similar weapons, while Engaged.

The "Night and Day" command changes which Azure Twin you Engage with. If you Engage with Ephraim, you get the Reginleif, Short Spear (lv 10), and Siegmund (lv 15). You still have the "Twin Attack", but joined by Eirika instead this time.

Marth now has the "Provoke" Sync skill, meaning foes will target his wearer if they are able to reach them with an attack. This skill can also be inherited, for 2000 SP.

Lucina's Dual Strike skill can be inherited, at a cost of 2000 SP. Also, when Bonded Shield is used by a Backup unit, it will provide +1 to all stats for adjacent allies, through the end of enemy phase.

Leif now starts with the Light Brand, gains the Brave Bow at level 10, and finally gets the Rescue Staff at level 15 (because no FE4 Leif experience is complete without the Rescue Staff). Quadruple Hit stil uses the same weapons as before, but when a Cavary unit does it, they have a Luck% chance of proccing a movement star...I mean, moving again.

Ike now gets Smite, rather than Reposition. Also, Laguz Friend grants Armor-type units immunity to being moved by a Smash attack.

Celica now offers "Favorite Food+" at level 15 onward. Eating a Packed Lunch will fully restore the unit's HP, and remove any status conditions. It can also be inherited, for 500 SP. Also Beloved Zofia > Ragnarok.

That's all I can think of now, but it's alreasy a lot.