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Gameplay changes you'd make to the Emblems


Jotari
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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Look, I know you're keen on Sol Katti, but overwriting Mani Katti is a big red line to cross. The Mani Katti is, like, the second or third-most important weapon in FE7 (after Durandal and, maybe, Armads). It actually has a plot presence and lore around it, unlike the vast majority of Rapier-type weapons (how did Hector get the Wolf Beil? Where did Eirika's Rapier come from? Who knows?). It represents Lyn's first big victory on her voyage to Caelin. It contains her Sacaean heritage, embodying the spiritual teachings of her people. And it selects her, as one who is destined to achieve great things. A version of Lyn without the Mani Katti would be naught more than a cheap imitator.

Oh I don't deny the importance of Mani Katti (and I love Glass). And yeah, Sol Katti sort of sucks in Blazing Blade because it is just needlessly and bizarrely heavy. But it does exist and actually is her ultimate weapon and should be featured in some way. And in practical gameplay effects I think would be more useful on her kit than Mani Katti. And if the Clones wiled it then it could be there in some form (course the other option would be to let the clones use Sol Katti and make their ability to chain attack with Lyn regardless of distance some kind of Sol Katti based ability and not just something innate to them).

Or just give Emblems four weapons. I certainly wouldn't mind Roy getting Durandal or Lucina getting Luna too.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Byleth now teaches in everything (except for knives), because... well, he's a teacher. He has one job. To compensate, there are fewer Luck+ skills (now just 3/6/9/12). Also, he now gives Freikugel to Backup units, the Lance of Ruin to Cavalry, the Fetters of Dromi (+1 Mov, free Canter) to Covert, and Thunderbrand to Dragons.

Why not let him teach Knives too? He obviously knows something about them as he always has one strapped onto his belt.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Corrin's first weapon is the Yato (base form). At level 10, she adds the Moon Festal (1-2 range Recover), and the Yato becomes the Noble Yato. At level 15, she gains the Dragonstone (a 1-range Smashing art that does magical damage), and the Yato becomes the Blazing Yato. Finally, at level 20, the Yato becomes the Omega Yato. This is all true... for even-numbered turns. On odd-numbered turns, the Moon Festal is replaced by Lightning (1-2-range brave tome), the Noble Yato by the Grim Yato, and the Blazing Yato by the Shadow Yato. Likewise, Corrin now teaches Tomes, Staves, and Arts, in addition to Swords. One last thing: while Dragon Vein can still be used while not Engaged, it will only affect one tile at a time - and not the one the user is standing on (sorry, Coverts). While Engaged, Dragon Vein is as effective as the version in the base game.

This would radically change what's considered one of the best Emblems in the game, but I'd be down for it. Corrin's tome and staff facets aught to be represented more.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The "Night and Day" command changes which Azure Twin you Engage with. If you Engage with Ephraim, you get the Reginleif, Short Spear (lv 10), and Siegmund (lv 15). You still have the "Twin Attack", but joined by Eirika instead this time.

I was so expecting it to work this way I was actually surprised and thought I was doing something wrong when I tried to Engage multiple times and didn't get Ephraim.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Leif now starts with the Light Brand, gains the Brave Bow at level 10, and finally gets the Rescue Staff at level 15 (because no FE4 Leif experience is complete without the Rescue Staff). Quadruple Hit stil uses the same weapons as before, but when a Cavary unit does it, they have a Luck% chance of proccing a movement star...I mean, moving again.

Movement stars in general could just be a really great skill for Leif to bring to the table.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Celica now offers "Favorite Food+" at level 15 onward. Eating a Packed Lunch will fully restore the unit's HP, and remove any status conditions. It can also be inherited, for 500 SP. Also Beloved Zofia > Ragnarok.

I brought up Beloved Zofia, but there are some questions about how it would actually work given you're probably going to be using Celica on a magic unit. I think maybe it's Renewal skill and Golden Knife Plentitude skill could justify turning Beloved Zofia into a Nosfeartu weapon.

 

 

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On the subject of The Great Emblem Theft, I have very mixed feelings, though I think that ultimately I'm more negative than positive.

On the good side of things, yeah, pretty much what other people have said. It makes sure that all (or at least most) of the Emblems have their time in the sun and really get to shine, and it also ensures that there's a nice constant drip feed of interesting new (or returned) toys coming in through the whole game.

On the negative side, I don't like the way that it interacts with the skill inheritance system or the weapon engraving system. I was especially burned by this on my first playthrough when I'd made various plans for what I was going to do with skills, engravings, and reclassing. Getting suddenly told that all my plans were for nothing was deflating, and made me just not want to engage with the game's systems beyond a superficial surface level.

But beyond that, I'm partway through my second playthrough now, and I don't really like how it's playing out there either. Having a hard limit for when you inherit certain skills wasn't something that I enjoyed. If I want a skill but don't have the SP for it yet, do I leave it until after I get the ring back, or do I grind for it? If I'm not sure whether I'll need a skill or not, do I buy it anyway just in case or do I keep the SP? Yeah, there's something to be said for requiring longterm planning, but even on my second time through the game, I don't feel equipped to make those decisions optimally.

The weapon engravings are also weird. Since you keep your engraved weapons and have no way of moving the engravings to other weapons, that typically means that the best weapons you can get are going to be by forging your existing engraved weapons up as much as possible. This in turn means that getting new weapons is less rewarding and exciting than it would otherwise be.

And I've already spoken about the negative effects on weapon proficiencies, so I'll not repeat myself there.

I also don't think that I particularly enjoy the way the game plays when you only have a small number of Emblems. They're so powerful that they create a situation where you just have two or three characters who are flat out better than everyone else in your army. Which I generally find to be one of the least interesting ways to play Fire Emblem. Most games in the series are fairly easy to break in half by building one or two superpowered characters who can steamroll everything, and only having two or three emblems seems to be gently pushing me towards that way of doing things. On the other hand, when I have enough Emblems for my full team, that's encouraging me to really make use of everyone because if I don't use everyone then I'm missing out on so much.

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I brought up Beloved Zofia, but there are some questions about how it would actually work given you're probably going to be using Celica on a magic unit. I think maybe it's Renewal skill and Golden Knife Plentitude skill could justify turning Beloved Zofia into a Nosfeartu weapon.

If we're looking at the Golden Dagger for inspiration even though it's Saber's signature weapon, it could have had Earth's Boon as well or instead. Let it create a food item that works with Favorite Food and you'd have the potential for it to cycle off itself, leading to an Emblem with very strong uptime on its Engage.

54 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Or just give Emblems four weapons. I certainly wouldn't mind Roy getting Durandal or Lucina getting Luna too.

I think it would have been fine if different Emblems had different numbers of weapons. Let some have four if they warrant it, or let others only have two if there aren't enough good choices. In general, I'd have liked to see more variance between how Emblems are built, rather than it always being three weapons, two Engage abilities, etc.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Byleth now teaches in everything (except for knives), because... well, he's a teacher. He has one job. To compensate, there are fewer Luck+ skills (now just 3/6/9/12). Also, he now gives Freikugel to Backup units, the Lance of Ruin to Cavalry, the Fetters of Dromi (+1 Mov, free Canter) to Covert, and Thunderbrand to Dragons.

This is one of those situations where the existence of the DLC makes things weird. If he's offering a smorgasbord of different relics to different unit types, it would be weird if the three house leader relics weren't among them. Until and unless you have the DLC, at which point it becomes weird if they are included, since that means they're doubled up.

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1 hour ago, lenticular said:

This is one of those situations where the existence of the DLC makes things weird. If he's offering a smorgasbord of different relics to different unit types, it would be weird if the three house leader relics weren't among them. Until and unless you have the DLC, at which point it becomes weird if they are included, since that means they're doubled up.

Maybe it would have been better to just leave the weapon master ability off Byleth (that's meant to be Leif's job anyway) and just give him things based on his actual profencies. Some magic, some gauntlets and the Sword the Creator. I honestly thought it was kind of weird (but understandable) when he first brought the house leaders weapons to Smash, because that's just not how you play Three Houses. These weapons have specific users for them and they're not Byleth.

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8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Reposition, Speed+X, plus what you said. Maybe some other stat skills situationally according to taste. And that's just the low-priced options, you can also do heavy investment like Draconic Hex or Hold Out or Speedtaker. Nobody lacks for good skill options.

My point is that none of these abilities feel like they are intended to help mages do what they are intended to do in the game.  Speedtaker can be nice, but I get the feeling it wouldn't be nearly as good on multiple units (can you guarantee you'd be able to feed enough kills to the right units to be a better option than a middling flat speed boost?).  Draconic Hex doesn't seem like a great fit for mages, since they tend to be big damage dealers to begin with on mooks, while the ability doesn't stack on bosses.  Mages should be able to do enough damage to a mook to make Draconic Hex irrelevant (if not killing the enemy outright), or you should have access to Corrin to land a Draconic Hex.  And I think Hold Out on a mage feels more like a meme than a plan.  You should be able to plan around a mage ever taking a serious hit after you get past the first handful of chapters.

But if you don't want to make Echo an inheritable skill, there are other options.  What about bringing in the Magic Range+1 abilities from Three Houses?  If that's too strong, maybe attach the rider as with Claude's ring in the game, where the unit has to be at full health to get the extra +1 range.  Or maybe you make it such that it's an elemental mastery ability.  There can be a Wind Magic +1 range, Fire Magic +1 Range, Ice Magic+1 Range, and maybe even a Thunder Magic +1 range (which would have to be the most SP intensive).  This provides extra utility, and can also allow for a bit of specialization between mages (e.g. one primarily deals with Fire magic while another uses Wind).  Or maybe you have a series of elemental buff abilities for each element type, something like Mt+2/4/6 and Hit+5%/10%/15% for a single element of spells.  Or maybe there's an ability that says attacking with a magic spell that an enemy can't counter gets some stat benefit (Mt+5, Crit+10%, Hit+10%, whatever you like), akin to the No Distractions class ability for Sniper.

I think there are plenty of interesting potential abilities they could have done, but all they did was generic tome mastery to slightly improve hit chance, which feels weak to me.

Edited by SumG
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2 minutes ago, SumG said:

My point is that none of these abilities feel like they are intended to help mages do what they are intended to do in the game.  Speedtaker can be nice, but I get the feeling it wouldn't be nearly as good on multiple units (can you guarantee you'd be able to feed enough kills to the right units to be a better option than a middling flat speed boost?).  Draconic Hex doesn't seem like a great fit for mages, since they tend to be big damage dealers to begin with on mooks, while the ability doesn't stack on bosses.  Mages should be able to do enough damage to a mook to make Draconic Hex irrelevant (if not killing the enemy outright), or you should have access to Corrin to land a Draconic Hex.  And I think Hold Out on a mage feels more like a meme than a plan.  You should be able to plan around a mage ever taking a serious hit after you get past the first handful of chapters.

Oh Speed Taker is definitely great on multiple units. Killing five enemies for a +10 speed boost is immense, even killing three enemies grants a huge advantage. And this game isn't exactly short on enemies to kill (nor are they easy to do so). But you're point very much stands Speed Taker is great on anyone not using a knife, but it's not something actually designed for mages to make use of. It's like Canter in that regard. It's great generally, but not great synergy.

2 minutes ago, SumG said:

But if you don't want to make Echo an inheritable skill, there are other options.  What about bringing in the Magic Range+1 abilities from Three Houses?  If that's too strong, maybe attach the rider as with Claude's ring in the game, where the unit has to be at full health to get the extra +1 range.  Or maybe you make it such that it's an elemental mastery ability.  There can be a Wind Magic +1 range, Fire Magic +1 Range, Ice Magic+1 Range, and maybe even a Thunder Magic +1 range (which would have to be the most SP intensive).  This provides extra utility, and can also allow for a bit of specialization between mages (e.g. one primarily deals with Fire magic while another uses Wind).  Or maybe you have a series of elemental buff abilities for each element type, something like Mt+2/4/6 and Hit+5%/10%/15% for a single element of spells.  Or maybe there's an ability that says attacking with a magic spell that an enemy can't counter gets some stat benefit (Mt+5, Crit+10%, Hit+10%, whatever you like), akin to the No Distractions class ability for Sniper.

I think there are plenty of interesting potential abilities they could have done, but all they did was generic tome mastery to slightly improve hit chance, which feels weak to men.

Those are all great ideas in general, but wouldn't really work for Engage. At least, not with how few magic Emblems it provides (a HP threshold would also work counter to Celica's HP cost ability, which is minor, but makes for a nice reference I wouldn't want to see removed). Though as has been pointed out, Byleth and Corrin could have been turned into demi mage Emblems too. Along with Celica and Micaiah that would make for Emblems to provide those elemental abilities for (though aside from Celica being fire, they might feel a bit randomly assigned).

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44 minutes ago, SumG said:

My point is that none of these abilities feel like they are intended to help mages do what they are intended to do in the game. 

What skills do you consider to be the ones that help physical fighters do what they do in the game? Because for me I have my mages and fighters equipped with very similar skills (outside of Staff Mastery). I don't really see much difference.

While I haven't actually inherited it myself, it seems to me that Draconic Hex is more useful on mages because compared to fighters because (a) they are one the classes who can activate it from range 3, along with bow-users, and (b) Echo exists from Celica as a way for them to apply it twice.

46 minutes ago, SumG said:

And I think Hold Out on a mage feels more like a meme than a plan.  You should be able to plan around a mage ever taking a serious hit after you get past the first handful of chapters.

I feel this is the wrong way of thinking about it. Planning around your mage never taking a hit should not be a goal.

By your own words, your mages generally do a lot of damage to mooks, right? Maybe even one-round them? Therefore, every hit a mage can take on enemy phase is one they are doing huge counter damage, possibly even one-rounding counter damage, back. Anything that increases their hit-taking is therefore valuable for this reason, in addition to the usual positioning flexibility it offers (e.g. you can find more places for your mage to attack if you're able to leave them in range of 2 enemies instead of 1).

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41 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I feel this is the wrong way of thinking about it. Planning around your mage never taking a hit should not be a goal.

By your own words, your mages generally do a lot of damage to mooks, right? Maybe even one-round them? Therefore, every hit a mage can take on enemy phase is one they are doing huge counter damage, possibly even one-rounding counter damage, back. Anything that increases their hit-taking is therefore valuable for this reason, in addition to the usual positioning flexibility it offers (e.g. you can find more places for your mage to attack if you're able to leave them in range of 2 enemies instead of 1).

Right, but if you're doing this you likely can never plan around your mages taking more than one hit in combat.  Realistically, you're only every going to get the base level Hold Out on a unit during a campaign (and even that is 2000 SP).  That only provides protection if you're above 30% HP.  Given a mage's typical low bulk and the strength of enemies, I would expect most physical attack enemies on higher difficulties to be able to get a mage below that threshold with a single round of combat, even if they are fast enough to avoid follow-up attacks.  And after that single round of combat, they are going to require a heal from a healer to get back above that threshold (i.e. you may not be able to get back above from an incidental heal from something like Quality Time).  To me, a 'frontline' unit that can only handle a single round of combat before a heal is a terrible frontline unit.  I want them to have enough defenses (whether that be defense/resistance, avoid, raw HP, or some combination thereof) that they have a good chance of handling multiple rounds of combat before requiring assistance (barring bosses).

53 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

What skills do you consider to be the ones that help physical fighters do what they do in the game? Because for me I have my mages and fighters equipped with very similar skills (outside of Staff Mastery). I don't really see much difference.

There are plenty of abilities that are present to help out different styles of physical fighters.  It's debatable whether the abilities are worth the SP cost it takes to pick them up and the benefit received, but the abilities are there.  You have your classic Vantage/Wrath combo, Resolve to help physical tanks, Avoid+ abilities for dodgetanks, Pair Up if you have a single point-person, Dual Assist for Backup class units, and Alacrity for fast flankers.  There's a difference between defaulting to consensus strong abilities despite alternative options and not having other options at all.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Those are all great ideas in general, but wouldn't really work for Engage. At least, not with how few magic Emblems it provides (a HP threshold would also work counter to Celica's HP cost ability, which is minor, but makes for a nice reference I wouldn't want to see removed).

I don't see why this is an issue.  There's only one emblem to give avoid, or bow accuracy, or axe power, or whatever else and there's no problems there.  The benefit of the abilities would be that they can be inherited, so any number of units can pick them up if they want to.

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2 hours ago, SumG said:

Right, but if you're doing this you likely can never plan around your mages taking more than one hit in combat.  Realistically, you're only every going to get the base level Hold Out on a unit during a campaign (and even that is 2000 SP).  That only provides protection if you're above 30% HP.

It should not be hard to reduce enemy damage to <=70% to any mage except Citrinne and Hortensia. Mages generally don't actually have that much less HP/def than other characters in this game, it's closer to GBA in that regard. If you find you're falling just short, tonics exist. Obviously various emblems give significant boosts to bulk as well (Corrin, Leif, Ike) though how well-suited they are to mages varies from "extremely" to "not at all".

It's true that mages aren't likely to be your dedicated tank characters (unless you stick Ike on them, but that's not really an efficient use of the rest of Ike's kit), and yes, someone who isn't a dedicated tank character will likely need healing between multiple rounds of frontlining. But that's the price you pay for having a frontliner who high 1-2 offence. And frankly they results aren't too different from trying to use e.g. a typical hero or warrior to frontline, or even your dodgetanks when the RNG doesn't cooperate (single RN means even displayed 10% chances are something you have to keep in mind, and on Maddening at least, enemies ignore 0 hit). Though obviously dodgetanks are useful for usually not requiring that healing, don't get me wrong.

2 hours ago, SumG said:

There are plenty of abilities that are present to help out different styles of physical fighters.  It's debatable whether the abilities are worth the SP cost it takes to pick them up and the benefit received, but the abilities are there.  You have your classic Vantage/Wrath combo, Resolve to help physical tanks, Avoid+ abilities for dodgetanks, Pair Up if you have a single point-person, Dual Assist for Backup class units, and Alacrity for fast flankers.

I'd rank Staff Mastery as at least as useful as any of these (with the possible exception of Vantage/Wrath), and that one's pretty specific to mages. I guess you can say purely offensive mages (i.e. Mage Knights) don't really have something specific to them, but neither do archers, for example.

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Honestly, one major change I would make for the Leif Emblem is have him give weapon proficiency in the main triangle at C rank to any class similar to how Micaiah gives Staff Rank to any class. Maybe Boost it to B rank if it's a base proficiency for the character like classes do.

All the classes in the game are either mono weapon or only have 2 weapons. And I believe it will make Arms Guard feel way way better as well as give the chosen unit more choice in their inventory. Having access to  the entire weapon triangle or a load of weapon types.

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8 hours ago, SumG said:

I don't see why this is an issue.  There's only one emblem to give avoid, or bow accuracy, or axe power, or whatever else and there's no problems there.  The benefit of the abilities would be that they can be inherited, so any number of units can pick them up if they want to.

One Emblem for each of those abilities. The issue that I'm pointing out is that we have all of one offensive magic Embleml, so those various abilities would be crowded all on Celica, with possible a few for Micaiah (and Celica in particularly wouldn't be able to use them with her HP cost ability).

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On 2/19/2023 at 5:23 AM, Jotari said:

Why not let him teach Knives too? He obviously knows something about them as he always has one strapped onto his belt.

My rationale was that Knives aren't usable at all in his own game. Plus, if Micaiah is post-10 now, then she can be a source of Knife proficiency. But Leif teaches Knives, even though they don't exist in Jugdral, so... sure why not.

On 2/19/2023 at 5:23 AM, Jotari said:

(course the other option would be to let the clones use Sol Katti and make their ability to chain attack with Lyn regardless of distance some kind of Sol Katti based ability and not just something innate to them).

That would be my preferred approach. Could still feature the Sol Katti, without displacing the Mani Katti.

On 2/19/2023 at 5:23 AM, Jotari said:

This would radically change what's considered one of the best Emblems in the game, but I'd be down for it. Corrin's tome and staff facets aught to be represented more.

I've interpreted Corrin's high power level as being more a product of Dragon Vein being OP than anything else. So if that's nerfed, or else made an Engage skill, then Corrin wouldn't be as game-breaking - even if her weapons are made better and more interesting. 

On 2/19/2023 at 5:23 AM, Jotari said:

Movement stars in general could just be a really great skill for Leif to bring to the table.

Could be a really fun element, in line with the proposed "Galeforce on Lucina".

On 2/19/2023 at 5:23 AM, Jotari said:

I brought up Beloved Zofia, but there are some questions about how it would actually work given you're probably going to be using Celica on a magic unit. I think maybe it's Renewal skill and Golden Knife Plentitude skill could justify turning Beloved Zofia into a Nosfeartu weapon.

That would be a cool effect. Celica will already have two tomes (via Seraphim and Warp Ragnarok), so it'd be nice to have a Sword in general, to break Axe enemies.

On 2/19/2023 at 4:15 AM, CompteSecours said:

And also have Luck% of not being able to act next turn because of fatigue 😅

Ah, but Leif is immune to Fatigue!

On 2/19/2023 at 6:29 AM, lenticular said:

This is one of those situations where the existence of the DLC makes things weird. If he's offering a smorgasbord of different relics to different unit types, it would be weird if the three house leader relics weren't among them. Until and unless you have the DLC, at which point it becomes weird if they are included, since that means they're doubled up.

I've thought about it, and I don't know if the Lord's Hero's Relics are actually more significant than those associated with other characters. Thunderbrand, for instance, is used to introduce the very premise of Hero's Relics to the player. And the Lance of Ruin serves as the basis for chapter 5, revealing the "dark side" of Relics and the Crest system at large. Areadbhar is kinda significant (being Dimitri's father's lance), but Failnaught is just... Claude's bow. It marks him as an heir of House Riegan, but that was already established pre-skip. And Aymr exists in a very weird spot, apparently being a creation of the Slithers, but still having the Hero's relic icon and enabling a unique combat art from Edelgard. It might be my bias as a Golden Deer fan, but if Byleth brings an Axe, I'd rather it be Freikugel (available on more routes, and representative of Hilda maturing and being recognized for her abilities).

22 hours ago, SumG said:

But if you don't want to make Echo an inheritable skill, there are other options.  What about bringing in the Magic Range+1 abilities from Three Houses?  If that's too strong, maybe attach the rider as with Claude's ring in the game, where the unit has to be at full health to get the extra +1 range.

This could've been a great skill on, say, Lysithea's S-rank Ring. Although, I'm of the mind that every S-rank Ring should've gotten a unique skill to offer.

 

On 2/19/2023 at 7:38 AM, Jotari said:

Maybe it would have been better to just leave the weapon master ability off Byleth (that's meant to be Leif's job anyway) and just give him things based on his actual profencies. Some magic, some gauntlets and the Sword the Creator. I honestly thought it was kind of weird (but understandable) when he first brought the house leaders weapons to Smash, because that's just not how you play Three Houses. These weapons have specific users for them and they're not Byleth.

I mean, technically speaking, Teach can use them without penalty. They just don't get the associated combat arts. A particularly bold take in the original 3H would've been for the "Crest of the Goddess" to contain the power of all other Crests, thus letting Teach use any of those arts. Would've made lore sense, too (as the "original" bearers of all other Crests are, narratively, the children of the Goddess). But that's not what they went for, and the game is better-balanced for it.

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete&#x27;s 1st Mate said:

I've interpreted Corrin's high power level as being more a product of Dragon Vein being OP than anything else.

Dragon vein is very good but it's not the strongest part of Corrin's kit IMO. I rarely use it and I still consider Corrin to likely be the strongest emblem.

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14 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Dragon vein is very good but it's not the strongest part of Corrin's kit IMO. I rarely use it and I still consider Corrin to likely be the strongest emblem.

The ability to shut down enemy movement is the main thing for me.

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