Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[Skyteppelin]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I was originally responding to this:

Everything after but isn't relevant to that.

I never said that my runs were faster than yours because I didn't used Lapis. I'm pretty sure what I actually said was that clearing chapters more quickly means that units get less experience; that's regardless of who is playing the game.

If you want to move the conversation forwards you really have to address the experience issue which is what I've been focusing on for a while now. This is one of the first things you'll notice in Vykan's FAQ:

and this is posted a little later:

The main point of contention is the benchmarks that you claim Lapis hits require that she be at a level I find to be too high for that point in the game when playing efficiently.

The thing is that your criteria is pretty vague. Efficiency is not the greatest term either, but at least there are a few things that we can objectively measure.

EXP if you rewarp to skipp everything then yes will be bad. However Again iv done lots of testing its pretty easy and affiant to get Lapis enough XP cause she is so insanely good at combat so she clears the path at an amazing pace.  This is who I feel about getting her XP it doesn't slow you down to do it, I play until i reach the boss then the boss dies I don't sweep clear maps I just got to boss and kill them. And on those runs her stats on average where 2 str and 1 spd less then him, not counting stat boosters or star sphere. 

If you find it to high then go test yourself I guess? Cause it worked for me but really idk what the big diffrenece between the runs do you want? or heck give me the way you want me to play and Ill go do it. I have saves at that point in the game for this exact reason. 

You have also given vague criteria, you just point to someone else work which I have read and took into account. I personally like CMs definitions more cause I think they are clearer 

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

EXP if you rewarp to skipp everything then yes will be bad.

Now that we've established this we can then move onto the next point.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

However Again iv done lots of testing its pretty easy and affiant to get Lapis enough XP cause she is so insanely good at combat so she clears the path at an amazing pace.

I'm going to assume that affiant=efficient; spending more time to train Lapis is not efficient.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

or heck give me the way you want me to play and Ill go do it. I have saves at that point in the game for this exact reason. 

If you want a more objective measurement you'd want to clear maps quickly and consistently (which means you'll still likely want to abuse staves) while also feeding Lapis as much as possible if that's what you want. You don't really need to do the work if you don't want though. If you're comfortable using an LTC run as a baseline they have Chloe at level 5 compared to Kagetsu's level 2 by chapter 14. An "efficient" playthrough is going to look slightly different, and this run used DLC to it's advantage (looks like XS used the Edelgard stuff to get extra turns with Chloe; again, I'm not familar with the DLC), but it should be a reasonable baseline. If we substitute Chloe's levels with Lapis then we get Kagetsu leading with 6 HP, 3 strength, 3 speed (more when she's weighed down), and 5 defense. Lapis might be able to close the gap with most of it if you choose to give her stat boosters, but it's hard to see her winning on the defensive stats, and Kagetsu should at least have that lead for the rest of the game.

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You have also given vague criteria, you just point to someone else work which I have read and took into account.

Why do you feel that turn counts are a vague criteria compared to "strongest" or "easiest"? If you tell me exactly how long it takes you to give Lapis extra levels we can go from there; we can't do that with your descriptors.

Edited March 19, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

26 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Now that we've established this we can then move onto the next point.

I'm going to assume that affiant=efficient; spending more time to train Lapis is not efficient.

If you want a more objective measurement you'd want to clear maps quickly and consistently (which means you'll still likely want to abuse staves) while also feeding Lapis as much as possible if that's what you want. You don't really need to do the work if you don't want though. If you're comfortable using an LTC run as a baseline they have Chloe at level 5 compared to Kagetsu's level 2 by chapter 14. An "efficient" playthrough is going to look slightly different, and this run used DLC to it's advantage (looks like XS used the Edelgard stuff to get extra turns with Chloe; again, I'm not familar with the DLC), but it should be a reasonable baseline. If we substitute Chloe's levels with Lapis then we get Kagetsu leading with 6 HP, 3 strength, 3 speed (more when she's weighed down), and 5 defense. Lapis might be able to close the gap with most of it if you choose to give her stat boosters, but it's hard to see her winning on the defensive stats, and Kagetsu should at least have that lead for the rest of the game.

Why do you feel that turn counts are a vague criteria compared to "strongest" or "easiest"? If you tell me exactly how long it takes you to give Lapis extra levels we can go from there; we can't do that with your descriptors.

I literally said that forever ago but alright.

Okay dude I swear to god at no point did I say I was spending more time training Lapis. What I'm saying is she naturally gets kills becasue she is good at doing just that while moving forward strong and fast. Just like Milady, Seth, Jill, Palla, Rutger, etc etc. I am not slowing down to trainer her okay?

Again please stop treating me like I'm a idiot, its rude and annoying. And sure, just like you said that is one LTC run what if there is other LTC or efficient runs that can do the same with Lapis? By your own logic we should be focusing on more then just what select people have done. 

Turn count is one metric not all metrics. Idk how long do you want it to take? Like just give me some god damn turn counts and Ill go do them, better then doing this back and forth that's going no were. 

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

Again please stop treating me like I'm a idiot, its rude and annoying.

Why do you get that impression exactly? I've had to point out when you've misinterpreted my arguments, but I'm not trying to treat you like an idiot, and if I wanted to I could point out instances where I feel that you have been rude; it just doesn't bother me though.

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Just like Milady, Seth, Jill, Palla, Rutger, etc etc.

The difference between the units you listed and Lapis is that they dominate all of their games while also factoring in all of the broken tools available to the player. There's no need to avoid things like warp, bonus experience, or whatever when talking about how good they are.

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And sure, just like you said that is one LTC run what if there is other LTC or efficient runs that can do the same with Lapis?

I'm not comparing Lapis to Chloe there. I just think that Chloe is a good substitute for Lapis when there's not a whole lot to go on at the moment, so we can use those as a baseline for comparison.

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

By your own logic we should be focusing on more then just what select people have done. 

Turn count is one metric not all metrics. Idk how long do you want it to take? Like just give me some god damn turn counts and Ill go do them, better then doing this back and forth that's going no were. 

If there was more to go on I'd gladly share. The only other run I'm aware of doesn't use either Chloe or Lapis, so it's not a good comparison to Kagetsu. If you want to do an efficiency run yourself I can't really offer you much. LTC turn counts (you can find those yourself if you want) are really the only thing to go by at the moment. Efficiency runs aren't as popular and take more of a collaborative effort to do. I don't think that they will look too different from LTCs though.

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I literally said that forever ago but alright.

Somewhere in this mess I've probably also mentioned that you don't necessarily have to assume warps every map, but that you can't give a unit credit for playing through a map more slowly (aka not taking advantage of things like rewarp, 2 turn clears, cheese, etc). This is why things like "What I'm saying is she naturally gets kills becasue she is good at doing just that while moving forward strong and fast." don't really matter. If she's doing that while completing chapters as quickly as possible that's to her benefit, but otherwise it's not fair to give her any credit for self improvement when playing a map at a slower pace.

Edited March 19, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

8 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Why do you get that impression exactly? I've had to point out when you've misinterpreted my arguments, but I'm not trying to treat you like an idiot, and if I wanted to I could point out instances where I feel that you have been rude; it just doesn't bother me though.

The difference between the units you listed and Lapis is that they dominate all of their games while also factoring in all of the broken tools available to the player. There's no need to avoid things like warp, bonus experience, or whatever when talking about how good they are.

I'm not comparing Lapis to Chloe there. I just think that Chloe is a good substitute for Lapis when there's not a whole lot to go on at the moment, so we can use those as a baseline for comparison.

If there was more to go on I'd gladly share. The only other run I'm aware of doesn't use either Chloe or Lapis, so it's not a good comparison to Kagetsu. If you want to do an efficiency run yourself I can't really offer you much. LTC turn counts (you can find those yourself if you want) are really the only thing to go by at the moment. Efficiency runs aren't as popular and take more of a collaborative effort to do. I don't think that they will look too different from LTCs though.

Somewhere in this mess I've probably also mentioned that you don't necessarily have to assume warps every map, but that you can't give a unit credit for playing through a map more slowly (aka not taking advantage of things like rewarp, 2 turn clears, cheese, etc). This is why things like "What I'm saying is she naturally gets kills becasue she is good at doing just that while moving forward strong and fast." don't really matter. If she's doing that while completing chapters as quickly as possible that's to her benefit, but otherwise it's not fair to give her any credit for self improvement when playing a map at a slower pace.

I'm getting it cause you are reiterating arguments that I already understand. Cause iv also been trying to point out where I think you have misinterpreted my arugments, that's why where in this never ending circle. Also I know iv been rude and I apologize for it, it just has been a frustrating conversation.

you don't have to avoid warp to make Lapis good, she is going to be worse with warp as most units will be. But she still helps with rewrap strategy's and helps even more with out them. But she doesn't need to avoid them. 

Id be fine with doing LTC but I don't have the expertise to really view a run long term cause that's a big part of LTCs not what saves you the most turns in one chapter but what saves the most turns overall through out the whole game. Also LTC really shouldn't be the only thing to measure how efficient something is cause they often require RNG abuse and other things that can make them a little shacky which is why they are different from speed runs or other types of good runs like rank runs (although those aren't a thing in this game) because sometimes they require lots of trail and error. 

I do think she clears it very fast I don't think she is slowing down the pace in all the runs iv done its everyone else that is holding her back not the other way around. But ill do a full warp run to see how it goes if that will make this a lot clearer to both of us. But cause we don't want to focus on LTCs why don't you give me some turn counts you want me to complete chapter X-X in (lets say chapter 8-11 or 13) then I can see what I can do. Sounds fun anyway 

[samthedigital]

11 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

I'm getting it cause you are reiterating arguments that I already understand.

The thing is that we're  going in circles when we don't have to.

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you don't have to avoid warp to make Lapis good, she is going to be worse with warp as most units will be. But she still helps with rewrap strategy's and helps even more with out them. But she doesn't need to avoid them. 

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I do think she clears it very fast I don't think she is slowing down the pace in all the runs iv done its everyone else that is holding her back not the other way around.

Are the kinds of things you've said multiple times that don't really add to the discussion or refute what I'm saying. I could continue to tell you that Lapis is not comparable to the best units in games like FE8, 9, 10, etc, but it doesn't really change anything. The fact that Lapis can help out with rewarp strategies is not relevant to her stats when Kagetsu joins or when he can be reclassed into a wyvern, etc. Your argument that Lapis is as good as Kagetsu hinges on the claim that she can get enough levels to match him, and then there's the rest of the game to consider where he's going to enjoy defensive leads even in the worst case scenario for him.

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Also LTC really shouldn't be the only thing to measure how efficient something is cause they often require RNG abuse and other things that can make them a little shacky which is why they are different from speed runs or other types of good runs like rank runs (although those aren't a thing in this game) because sometimes they require lots of trail and error. 

There are a lot if similarities between efficiency runs and LTCs than you'd think. Speedruns are a completely different beast (they're often done on normal mode for starters), so I won't dig into that much further. In an "efficient" playthrough we would still be doing many LTC strats as long as they're consistent enough; it's hard to beat a 1-2 turn clear even if it relies on a killer item crit especially with all the rewinds available in the game. There are some instances where consistency might be an issue, but I couldn't tell you what chapters those are because it would require more research. My guess would be that the maps without Micaiah would tend to have more variance (chapter 13 is probably most relevant to our discussion in terms of turn counts, but that's just a guess, chapter 11 and 12 won't play out very differently).

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But cause we don't want to focus on LTCs why don't you give me some turn counts you want me to complete chapter X-X in (lets say chapter 8-11 or 13) then I can see what I can do. Sounds fun anyway

Chapter 8 can be completed in 2 turns reliably. I'm not sure if chapter 9 can be completed in 1 turn reliably (might need a crit on Ivy), but I would assume that a 2 turn is reliable enough since we have more units available to rewarp. If not then it would be a matter of seeing whether the consistency of a slower clear would outweigh the speed of a faster clear, and that's not work that I want to do. I'm not as familiar with chapter 10 strategies whatsoever. Chapter 11 should be completed in at most 3 turns, but I'm not sure if there are faster available strategies now; you'd want to look into that. Chapter 12 can be completed in at most 4 turns reliably, and potentially less; that is again something that you would have to test out. Chapter 13 is far more complicated and I have no idea how that would play out, but my guess is that exp in chapter 12 and 13 is a little more even because Kagetsu also exists there and can kill enemies.

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Id be fine with doing LTC but I don't have the expertise to really view a run long term cause that's a big part of LTCs not what saves you the most turns in one chapter but what saves the most turns overall through out the whole game.

You could always try it out; it's not as if it's a big deal to lose a few turns while experimenting to see what works better next time. Even then it's mostly a matter of routing chapters without Micaiah, and there's a lot of work you can borrow from.

[Skyteppelin]

37 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The thing is that we're  going in circles when we don't have to.

Are the kinds of things you've said multiple times that don't really add to the discussion or refute what I'm saying. I could continue to tell you that Lapis is not comparable to the best units in games like FE8, 9, 10, etc, but it doesn't really change anything. The fact that Lapis can help out with rewarp strategies is not relevant to her stats when Kagetsu joins or when he can be reclassed into a wyvern, etc. Your argument that Lapis is as good as Kagetsu hinges on the claim that she can get enough levels to match him, and then there's the rest of the game to consider where he's going to enjoy defensive leads even in the worst case scenario for him.

There are a lot if similarities between efficiency runs and LTCs than you'd think. Speedruns are a completely different beast (they're often done on normal mode for starters), so I won't dig into that much further. In an "efficient" playthrough we would still be doing many LTC strats as long as they're consistent enough; it's hard to beat a 1-2 turn clear even if it relies on a killer item crit especially with all the rewinds available in the game. There are some instances where consistency might be an issue, but I couldn't tell you what chapters those are because it would require more research. My guess would be that the maps without Micaiah would tend to have more variance (chapter 13 is probably most relevant to our discussion in terms of turn counts, but that's just a guess, chapter 11 and 12 won't play out very differently).

Chapter 8 can be completed in 2 turns reliably. I'm not sure if chapter 9 can be completed in 1 turn reliably (might need a crit on Ivy), but I would assume that a 2 turn is reliable enough since we have more units available to rewarp. If not then it would be a matter of seeing whether the consistency of a slower clear would outweigh the speed of a faster clear, and that's not work that I want to do. I'm not as familiar with chapter 10 strategies whatsoever. Chapter 11 should be completed in at most 3 turns, but I'm not sure if there are faster available strategies now; you'd want to look into that. Chapter 12 can be completed in at most 4 turns reliably, and potentially less; that is again something that you would have to test out. Chapter 13 is far more complicated and I have no idea how that would play out, but my guess is that exp in chapter 12 and 13 is a little more even because Kagetsu also exists there and can kill enemies.

You could always try it out; it's not as if it's a big deal to lose a few turns while experimenting to see what works better next time. Even then it's mostly a matter of routing chapters without Micaiah, and there's a lot of work you can borrow from.

Id say the same to you. 

and I could keep telling you she is and give me reason but that also doesn't change anything. My arugment doesn't just hinge on that its just part of it and not at all the deciding factor. Cause I'm purposefully ignoring alll the other ways she can better cause everyone gets up in arms when you start bringing in stat boosters, skills, DLC, other things like that. Like I think the enegry drops you get before kagetsu are all better used on lapis cause they help you more for more of the game which is what I believe. But then will get even more into the weeds of investment. 

watching people like CMs run there is a lot low percent crts that need to happen or just some sketchy dodges that need to happen same goes for other runs iv seen, like is getting a 3% crt to get a turn 2 really all that good epsically if it cause a bunch of resets. Like there is so many game overs we don't see for LTC runs cause we only see the finished product never all the trail and error it took to get to that point. Its one metric but a misleading one at times. Also for speed runs it doesn't have to be normal per say that's often what's done cause that's most inclusive but harder difficult speed runs are just as valid. 

so ill do chapter 8 2 turns, chapter 9 1-2 turns, chapter 10 ill try to get the lowest I can figure out, chapter 11 3-4 turns, chapter 12 4 turns, and chapter 13 ill also try to figure out the lowest I can get I already have some ideas. 

Any other things you want me to keep in mind? Like do I need to get every side objective, and how many stat boosters or DLC am I allowed to use (i'm cool with doing no DLC but I don't mind ether way) 

  

Edited March 19, 2023 by Skyteppelin

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

My arugment doesn't just hinge on that its just part of it and not at all the deciding factor.

Your argument can be summed up as this: Lapis contributes more during chapters 9-13 and is the same for the rest of the game besides the defense and personal. If she does not match Kagetsu then it does indeed hinge on that given the fact that Kagetsu would be the better unit for a far more significant portion of the game.

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watching people like CMs run there is a lot low percent crts that need to happen or just some sketchy dodges that need to happen same goes for other runs iv seen, like is getting a 3% crt to get a turn 2 really all that good epsically if it cause a bunch of resets. Like there is so many game overs we don't see for LTC runs cause we only see the finished product never all the trail and error it took to get to that point. Its one metric but a misleading one at times.

If you're trying to argue that there's a big difference between an LTC and an efficiency run consider that most if not all of the paralogues and maps past chapter 19 will look almost identical and several chapters before then will also look identical; the low reliability strategies you are talking about do not apply in every instance. When they do the difference might only be a turn or two to set up a reliable clear.

 

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

Id say the same to you. 

and I could keep telling you she is and give me reason but that also doesn't change anything.

If it doesn't change anything then why mention it and ask me to give you more reasons if you're not just trying to be rude? I'm specifically not responding to everything you have to say because it's often off-topic at best, so I'm not sure where the similarities are.

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Any other things you want me to keep in mind? Like do I need to get every side objective, and how many stat boosters or DLC am I allowed to use (i'm cool with doing no DLC but I don't mind ether way)

In the context of this you'll probably want to avoid DLC since it was not originally assumed. You'll want to share video evidence so that other people can analyze your gameplay. It's more useful than trying to convince me, but I would have a hard time believing you otherwise.

Edited March 19, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

38 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Your argument can be summed up as this: Lapis contributes more during chapters 9-13 and is the same for the rest of the game besides the defense and personal. If she does not match Kagetsu then it does indeed hinge on that given the fact that Kagetsu would be the better unit for a far more significant portion of the game.

If you're trying to argue that there's a big difference between an LTC and an efficiency run consider that most if not all of the paralogues and maps past chapter 19 will look almost identical and several chapters before then will also look identical; the low reliability strategies you are talking about do not apply in every instance. When they do the difference might only be a turn or two to set up a reliable clear.

 

If it doesn't change anything then why mention it and ask me to give you more reasons if you're not just trying to be rude? I'm specifically not responding to everything you have to say because it's often off-topic at best, so I'm not sure where the similarities are.

In the context of this you'll probably want to avoid DLC since it was not originally assumed. You'll want to share video evidence so that other people can analyze your gameplay. It's more useful than trying to convince me, but I would have a hard time believing you otherwise.

Match is the key here though one to two stat difference are really small in the long term for two units that can do so many different things. If Lapis does end up equal or surpassing him then she is just better. If she ends up slightly worse then she will still preform pretty much the exact same with that added benefit of what she did before this and access to part 1 emblems for longer. Even if Kagetsu does end up being the better one I hardly think that would warrant any tier difference in them cause they are basically the same.  Given all the benefits she can do that will put her over him.

Not that there is a big difference just that as you tell me my runs can't judge for everything. The one playstyle that is LTC can be used to judge everything for fire emblem games ether, it is one way but it is a narrow way that often has a lot of extra variables and things that are never considered like the time it takes to come up with a strategy or how reliable as you say it is to do.  

I feel the same off you, your saying things that iv  already established that I understand which is contributing to why this is going in circles. I'm guilty as well but I find it rude that your seemingly pinning all the "blame" one me.  If you don't agree fine but then will never reach a satisfying end to this. 

I will although idk exactly when Ill be able to get around to it at all cause of school.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Skyteppelin said:

If she ends up slightly worse then she will still preform pretty much the exact same with that added benefit of what she did before this and access to part 1 emblems for longer.

Can you list everything she does that you feel is significant before Kagetsu joins in an efficiency context? I'm talking about things that no other unit can do that would warrant her being rated as a top tier unit.

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Not that there is a big difference just that as you tell me my runs can't judge for everything. The one playstyle that is LTC can be used to judge everything for fire emblem games ether, it is one way but it is a narrow way that often has a lot of extra variables and things that are never considered like the time it takes to come up with a strategy or how reliable as you say it is to do.  

We're not judging based off of several different kinds of playthroughs unless I'm mistaken. Ranking units would be even more pointless if we factored in every style of play into one. I suggested using an LTC because it gives us some numbers rather than having nothing as we do now if we're ranking based off of efficient play. If you feel that the levels are going to be too different then there isn't really much to add as far as that goes. If you want to discuss some other kind of playthrough please indicate that, but the rules have to be clear.

[Skyteppelin]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Can you list everything she does that you feel is significant before Kagetsu joins in an efficiency context? I'm talking about things that no other unit can do that would warrant her being rated as a top tier unit.

We're not judging based off of several different kinds of playthroughs unless I'm mistaken. Ranking units would be even more pointless if we factored in every style of play into one. I suggested using an LTC because it gives us some numbers rather than having nothing as we do now if we're ranking based off of efficient play. If you feel that the levels are going to be too different then there isn't really much to add as far as that goes. If you want to discuss some other kind of playthrough please indicate that, but the rules have to be clear.

She's your best combat unit she is one of the two units (other being a trained Chloe) that can double sword based enemy's which also means she is one of the best if not the best boss killer as she can one round any boss. She is one of the best users of marth and merc cause she can even one round enemy's on EP with it so she can gain a lot more XP per enemy. She is also one of the most flexible unit pretty much being able to make good use of each emblem at this point in the game, so she can fill basically any rolls you need her to. Is easily the best dodge tank, cause even if you want to go the sword master direction, you can make her a wolf knight and forge her an amazing knife and make it so you can breeze through the game. All this also means she can be easily used with warps cause she is the best combat unit you have because of her ability to double everything she can take out anything you need her to.  Any damage given to her through forges like a trained Chloe basically counts as 2 extra damage because of the doubling. Same goes for any stat boosters, other units like Dia, Amber, and Yunaka can EP some units but not all the things that Lapis can. Also of course to top it all of she can do all this right out the box with just one promo into a swordmaster (then change to whatever you want). She can also now thanks to well gain access to pretty much any skill you want her to have, be that canter, Str up, Sword power, Avoid, Build. Whatever you want her to have which is something that kagetsu won't get access to. Then as iv said before she can become a wyv before kagetsu can making her the best choice for lyn once you get her, which lets her snowball with other maps you can put her in.  

Everything I can think of at the moment, of course that's not say you can't still use kagetsu like I said she is very flexible. She doesn't need Lyn just as kagetsu doesn't they can use Luc instead and then Roy, Leif, Marth, SIgurd later. She like Kagetsu can work great with any of these so they aren't stealing anything from each each other.

Iv already said that I don't think she is better in a LTC context (for now anyway as iv said I belive she is still quite good and some things worth looking into) And I don't like focusing on LTC anyway cause I feel its way to narrow. Its often a very specific strategy that resets a lot and use a lot of RNG manipulation among other things to get its results. Its a cool and awesome way to play but Just doesn't really reflect the game as a whole and just one very specific strategy. If we did based on LTC id want to focus on how good would a unit be if you did use them not just if they can be replaced by someone else as that's how I believe tier list should work to actually get the point across of why people make them in the first place.  

[samthedigital]

47 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Iv already said that I don't think she is better in a LTC context (for now anyway as iv said I belive she is still quite good and some things worth looking into) And I don't like focusing on LTC anyway cause I feel its way to narrow. Its often a very specific strategy that resets a lot and use a lot of RNG manipulation among other things to get its results. Its a cool and awesome way to play but Just doesn't really reflect the game as a whole and just one very specific strategy. If we did based on LTC id want to focus on how good would a unit be if you did use them not just if they can be replaced by someone else as that's how I believe tier list should work to actually get the point across of why people make them in the first place.  

None of what I said relates to rating characters in an LTC context, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to repeat yourself.

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She's your best combat unit she is one of the two units (other being a trained Chloe) that can double sword based enemy's which also means she is one of the best if not the best boss killer as she can one round any boss. She is one of the best users of marth and merc cause she can even one round enemy's on EP with it so she can gain a lot more XP per enemy. She is also one of the most flexible unit pretty much being able to make good use of each emblem at this point in the game, so she can fill basically any rolls you need her to. Is easily the best dodge tank, cause even if you want to go the sword master direction, you can make her a wolf knight and forge her an amazing knife and make it so you can breeze through the game. All this also means she can be easily used with warps cause she is the best combat unit you have because of her ability to double everything she can take out anything you need her to.  Any damage given to her through forges like a trained Chloe basically counts as 2 extra damage because of the doubling. Same goes for any stat boosters, other units like Dia, Amber, and Yunaka can EP some units but not all the things that Lapis can. Also of course to top it all of she can do all this right out the box with just one promo into a swordmaster (then change to whatever you want). She can also now thanks to well gain access to pretty much any skill you want her to have, be that canter, Str up, Sword power, Avoid, Build. Whatever you want her to have which is something that kagetsu won't get access to. Then as iv said before she can become a wyv before kagetsu can making her the best choice for lyn once you get her, which lets her snowball with other maps you can put her in.  

Maybe I should clarify: What specific things doe she do that is significant before getting Kagetsu? Things like her chance of killing the boss of chapter 8 and 9 as a 10/1 unit (and with what loadout), etc. Those would be tangible benefits that Lapis has if you could provide them. Killing random enemies on EP when maps can be completed in 2 turns even in an efficiency context isn't significant, so we can move away from those kinds of examples.

Edited March 20, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

None of what I said relates to rating characters in an LTC context, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to repeat yourself.

Maybe I should clarify: What specific things doe she do that is significant before getting Kagetsu? Things like her chance of killing the boss of chapter 8 and 9 as a 10/1 unit (and with what loadout), etc. Those would be tangible benefits that Lapis has if you could provide them. Killing random enemies on EP when maps can be completed in 2 turns even in an efficiency context isn't significant, so we can move away from those kinds of examples.

You said we should use a LTC metric and I said why I disagree.

I don't agree I think that is significant for any sort of run aside from 1 turns obviously. She can one round every boss with marth in swordmaster (or griffin knight) or with a forged steel sword. Or with roy after she gets one Spd level.  Goes for all sub bosses to like Kagetsu and Zelkov or Goldmary and Rosado. What this is really boiling down to is which just have very different ideas of what makes a unit good in any different context. Which id how to reconcile your the only person iv went this far with everyone else iv come to somewhat of a understand with so it is what it is I guess.  Ether way I'm going to do this run we talked about cause it sounds fun. 

[samthedigital]

3 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

You said we should use a LTC metric and I said why I disagree.

No, I said that we could use the LTC levels as a baseline to compare the units through an efficiency lens unless you thought that there was too much of a disparity between the levels between that and an LTC run. The assumption was always about evaluating the units in an efficiency context.

3 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

What this is really boiling down to is which just have very different ideas of what makes a unit good in any different context.

I said this earlier:

9 hours ago, samthedigital said:

If you want to discuss some other kind of playthrough please indicate that, but the rules have to be clear.

Finishing a map in a low amount of turns is not the same as doing an LTC run, but regardless of that if you don't specify there's no point; if you want to talk about the efficiency runs as described above the turn counts are still going to matter. If it's in a speedrunning context (tier lists are pretty lame there) it usually revolves around soloing the game with Alear, so there's nothing to discuss. If you want to talk about her during an ironman setting that's also completely different, etc.

[Colonel M]

Maybe some philosophy might help with the topic here. I probably won't be peeking too much at this because there's... a lot to the discussion.

LTC is what I like to call a floor. You can also call it a ceiling if you will. Assuming fairly decent chances of success, you can use this as a basis to help determine what is good and what is bad. From there, you can try to go with more lax assumptions on the player and their clears.

When you evaluate a character under the circumstances, you first can see what they contribute to an LTC clear. The reason I like this is because there is factual evidence (usually) behind what is going on. There are direct 1:1 measurements of what a character can contribute in the tightest of settings and worked out from there.

Then, if say a unit doesn't work in those settings, you can then evaluate what it takes to either get them to that point or, if you're going a little bit slower, what they can do in direct comparison with other units. This is why Tier Lists have worked for many years IMO. Of course, it has been riddled with silly things here and there like PEMN (Personal Experience Means Nothing), which is fairly ironic when you think about it because the best way to sometimes rank a character is through... personal experience. If you have the factual information to back up these statements, then it's more credible than paper analysis which was what was often done waaaay back in debates with Reikken and co.

(Forgive me this is from a Discord):

Spoiler

Truth be told I do rank efficiently, which means not strictly LTC in mind
However
The thing is that LTC, you could say, can be used as a method of measurement of some capacity
Think of it like this
LTC is your "ceiling"
So you can obviously use units otherwise without having to go all the way for low turns because, yes
There are a multitude of ways to approach it
So then you go in a sense like so
If you use X unit:

- What do they contribute
- Can they contribute more with resources
- Is there a cost associated with it

Asked by another user: "does what they contribute include does another unit do the same they do but better
or how unique they are in said role"

Myself: Can be both
But long story short
You can make a tier list with multiple parameters
That also includes LTC, mind
Even though LTC has to have more defining arguments
tl;dr
Boucheron is S in my heart

There's a lot of criteria a tier list can have, and the reason why some people just don't like them is because their favorite character (*cough* Anna *cough*) is often in the gutter tiers (where she belongs). There's almost no criteria that players often use with their games and tier lists (LTC, Efficiency, Ironman, etc) that makes her good.

There's also something I really want to talk about because it kind of irks me that this is often brought up into discussion with stuff like LTC, and I really want to nip the rose in the bud:

13 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Its often a very specific strategy that resets a lot and use a lot of RNG manipulation among other things to get its results.

Take it from the person who not only did Chapter 5 like multiple times in different ways, but also from many others who have. There is often more than one way to scratch a cat.

If I followed exactly what was done early on, I would've used Amber like everyone else in Jean Paralogue if I had to clear all Paralogues. XS and co discovered like 3 different ways to do this map now before Chapter 7, and some of these have fairly reasonable chances of success.

Lolo, who granted was doing Hard, was focusing on her playthrough to be all about 100% Chance of Success in her Low Turn count. She went as far as documenting everything one-to-one on it and is yet another dent to this argument. This is arguably more reliable than your average Fire Emblem player who is taking risks (sometimes very reckless) or not paying attention to what's going on in the map.

The other thing is - and I'm just doing this as a natural callout to everyone - everyone does this if they aren't Iron Manning. I cannot name how many times I've watched over the years of people resetting because their level ups were awful, because they missed a critical crit that probably could have been prevented if they just mapped out the map more carefully, resetting because their one strategy that they devised or watched from someone like, I don't know, Iced Coffee Gaming didn't work the same way it did for them. You know why I reset sometimes?

Because I get opportune crits that I don't like to assume in strategies.

Prior to my Chapter 6 record that I did, I had one almost ready and Celine got a crit on Turn 2 against the Axe Bandit. The thing is that it's extra EXP that I'd rather not assume, because I do actually look at things like Chance of Success and probability. Many LTC players do this as well, and I am sure Speedrunners and Iron Manners alike also look for this. XS's clears are impressive, and Iove seeing turn floors (ceilings) because I think they are interesting to see if, from a chance of success standpoint, if there is a way to replicate that or find a new strategy in the process. That's really the beauty of LTC to me.

How it applies to here is like so - I don't think under most circumstances Lapis will contribute a lot to LTC. That's fine. If the player is going at a somewhat efficient pace, then it's possible Lapis can be good. But even then there are still varying factors here, because Lapis's jointime is basically 2 maps away from Rewarping 9 and 10. Lapis can help in these circumstances, but the process of course is that by going faster, your levels are decreasing for the entire party (and likely your unit) as well. So it's important to find a good metric of measurement regardless when you're doing tier lists, because you can only napkin math so much before you run into how we used to do tiering back in the dinosaur era.

I can make Anna good for example if I assume the following criteria. It's not to say you should use this criteria, but it's a criteria nevertheless:

- She can sometimes nab you 500 Gold

- She's "easy to raise" if you use Micaiah on her

- She feels fun to use because after she promotes and gets Chaos Style it's not terribly difficult to keep her rolling.

- If you go heavier on Cavalry she can be protected by Bonded Shield Cavs

- She has a rewarding experience as a growth unit

Do any of these things matter to me in a vacuum? No, they don't But it is true that it does to some. They'll say Anna is better than Boucheron because Anna has growth potential and Boucheron doesn't (even though I'd probably argue that's false).

Edited March 20, 2023 by Colonel M

[Skyteppelin]

7 hours ago, samthedigital said:

No, I said that we could use the LTC levels as a baseline to compare the units through an efficiency lens unless you thought that there was too much of a disparity between the levels between that and an LTC run. The assumption was always about evaluating the units in an efficiency context.

I said this earlier:

Finishing a map in a low amount of turns is not the same as doing an LTC run, but regardless of that if you don't specify there's no point; if you want to talk about the efficiency runs as described above the turn counts are still going to matter. If it's in a speedrunning context (tier lists are pretty lame there) it usually revolves around soloing the game with Alear, so there's nothing to discuss. If you want to talk about her during an ironman setting that's also completely different, etc.

same difference, point was I don't think its the best metric. 

As have I

Its not but you have been posting LTC numbers id personally up those numbers in a "efficiency" run because easy of execution is more important to me then low turn counts are. speed running tier list are lame to you that's fair I def don't agree cause they aren't any different then any FE tier list, FE is already not really a game franchise where tier list really work. But ether way if we both agree that we are getting nowhere then Ill just do that run at some point and go from there.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, Colonel M said:

 

There's a lot of criteria a tier list can have, and the reason why some people just don't like them is because their favorite character (*cough* Anna *cough*) is often in the gutter tiers (where she belongs). There's almost no criteria that players often use with their games and tier lists (LTC, Efficiency, Ironman, etc) that makes her good.

There's also something I really want to talk about because it kind of irks me that this is often brought up into discussion with stuff like LTC, and I really want to nip the rose in the bud:

Take it from the person who not only did Chapter 5 like multiple times in different ways, but also from many others who have. There is often more than one way to scratch a cat.

How it applies to here is like so - I don't think under most circumstances Lapis will contribute a lot to LTC. That's fine. If the player is going at a somewhat efficient pace, then it's possible Lapis can be good. But even then there are still varying factors here, because Lapis's jointime is basically 2 maps away from Rewarping 9 and 10. Lapis can help in these circumstances, but the process of course is that by going faster, your levels are decreasing for the entire party (and likely your unit) as well. So it's important to find a good metric of measurement regardless when you're doing tier lists, because you can only napkin math so much before you run into how we used to do tiering back in the dinosaur era.

 

While I agree that there is defiantly a factor of someone being upset that there favorite characters is often trash tier. I think that doesn't really tell the whole story. When you use a unit if they turn out good and made your run a lot easier you will naturally think of them as good. So its not just that its there favorite its just that they had a really positive experience using that character so it makes perfect sense they will think of them as good. You can throw all the different criteria you want at someone, it doesn't change the fact that every time they use that unit it works out for them based on the way they play. Which really gets into the core that makes fire emblem so weird to make tier list for. Its not a game where everything is a even playing filed, there is no right or wrong way to play the game. We can come up with all the "best" ways to play the game we want but in the end those are just created by us. It isn't like a fighting game where there is one clear goal so once you see how well each character can get that goal its much easier to come to a consensus on what is good. Which isn't to say you can't do that per say, I just wanted to highlight that it often comes from a place that is more then just favorite unit being "bad." 

indeed, I agree but it is funny that anything that does require a reset or two is in most peoples eyes failure. I think if most people streamed then entire LTC process including all the failures and game overs. Most people would think LTC are far less impressive then they do now for how often they game over or reset.  It reminds me of yu-gi-oh videos on youtube that do these like crazy combos and blow the F out of whoever they are playing. But what they don't show is the 50 games they lost to just find that one good game (idk if LTC are this drastic but I think you get my point). Anyone who knows about that process would never call that deck good. 

As for Lapis, this is the part I get so weirded out by you say possible good but for my experience iv never had a easier time playing this game then promoting Lapis then watching her kill everything. In any other game that would be the hall mark of a good unit, and while I understand that LTC is a criteria that is unique to fire emblem and is a interesting one. I really think it fails in a lot of ways to actually inform a player as tier list are meant to do in what is actually good and will make there time a lot easier. Like yes rewarping is one way to make the game easier, as is having a unit that never dies and kills everything. Getting the lost turn count is one way to show the game is easier, but having units that never die and just win you the game is just as vaild away to make the game a cake walk. 

Which brings me into the other thing, I think any tier list no matter what should always assume you are using that unit/character/item whatever. You even wrote so yourself in your tier list post, and going by that metric if Lapis can do basically the same things as Chloe after she joins or similar to what kagetsu can do, even if it is worse. If the turn difference is ether not existent or maybe 1 or 2 turns off give or take the chapter. Then Lapis should still be good, because her performance when used is similar to the best. Ill use a fighting game example, if the best character in the game is a fast rush down that beats everyone in the cast. Then there is another fast rush down that beats everyone in the cast minus the best character and maybe like one or two others. That second character would still be considered high or even top tier, because it doesn't matter if there is a better choice then them. Cause all tier list assume you are actually using the given character, and not that there is just a better version of them. This is where I personally feel a lot of tier list for fire emblem fail at doing. Which imo should be done cause that's really what the point of a tier list is.  

[samthedigital]

4 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Its not but you have been posting LTC numbers id personally up those numbers in a "efficiency" run because easy of execution is more important to me then low turn counts are.

Ease of use is a subjective way of tiering units. Do we rate Seadall lower because he's harder to use than a unit that doesn't need protection? What about if you find Lapis easy to use while someone else doesn't? Using turn counts is an objective way of telling us what strategy is faster/better/etc.

 

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same difference, point was I don't think its the best metric.

It's not the same difference. An LTC run is not the same thing as clearing a map in a low amount of turns.

4 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

As have I

You've said the words that I quoted?

Edited March 20, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Ease of use is a subjective way of tiering units. Do we rate Seadall lower because he's harder to use than a unit that doesn't need protection? What about if you find Lapis easy to use while someone else doesn't? Using turn counts is an objective way of telling us what strategy is faster/better/etc.

 

It's not the same difference. An LTC run is not the same thing as clearing a map in a low amount of turns.

You've said the words that I quoted?

It is one way of doing so, and easy of use can be measured you can pretty easily give people the same build for a character see how the use it then go from there its not nebulas.

Why do you need to clear maps in a low amount of turns? Why is that the way to view something as good? Why can't it be what clears maps the easiest with out need for resets? Or who gets the best stats? Or how fast can you get the most supports? Or who is the best at doing side objectives? Or who is the best at killing a boss? there are lots of other ways a good unit can be defined you are just choosing to focus primarily on getting a low turn count. Which is fine but is only one way to look at it and ignores a lot of other factos that can go into it. Epsically cause what might give you a low turn count now might not give you lowest overall turn count. 

indeed, although I don't care who said it first the point is we both agree on that. 

[samthedigital]

10 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Why do you need to clear maps in a low amount of turns? Why is that the way to view something as good? Why can't it be what clears maps the easiest with out need for resets?

If you want to differentiate two strategies that clear the map easily without the need for resets you need to take into account what strategy does so more quickly. If we used fighting games as an example turn counts would be analogous to the amount of damage a combo does and the strategy would be the button combo in the fighting game. The difference is that manual dexterity is not required in a turn based strategy game.

30 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Epsically cause what might give you a low turn count now might not give you lowest overall turn count.

This isn't of much concern in an efficiency setting. We're not so much trying to be meticulous about the turn count so much as having a general idea of what's better; a turn here and there is not going to have a drastic impact on rankings.

[Skyteppelin]

10 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

If you want to differentiate two strategies that clear the map easily without the need for resets you need to take into account what strategy does so more quickly. If we used fighting games as an example turn counts would be analogous to the amount of damage a combo does and the strategy would be the button combo in the fighting game. The difference is that manual dexterity is not required in a turn based strategy game.

This isn't of much concern in an efficiency setting. We're not so much trying to be meticulous about the turn count so much as having a general idea of what's better; a turn here and there is not going to have a drastic impact on rankings.

What happens when lower damage combos lead to better Oki? Or taking the meter spent into account that would be better for RCs in neutral? What about the combo starters? Some do way more damage but are way less likely to hit and might get you punished just as hard for missing it. Doing good damage or in this case getting a low turn count does show one good thing about it. But does it set is up better for the long run, what if I "waste"  2 turns on chapter X to get items or level up let me clear Chapter Y in 4 less turns. I don't disagree that low turn count means something is working better, but there is more to being good in fire emblem then getting a low turn count at least imo. 

If that's the case why is someone like Lapis who can easily get a ton of bonus for maybe taking 1 extra turn considered far worse then someone like Kagetstu epsically when she can actually save turns over him when they are both around? Among other bonus she can have over him. 

[samthedigital]

57 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Doing good damage or in this case getting a low turn count does show one good thing about it. But does it set is up better for the long run, what if I "waste"  2 turns on chapter X to get items or level up let me clear Chapter Y in 4 less turns.

It's not that complicated. Unless you mismanage staff use to a hilarious degree there shouldn't be that much of a difference. Experience management is another thing, but it's still not going to result in a lot of turns over the course of the run. Consistency might take a hit depending, but experience management is more of a concern in a strict LTC.

57 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

If that's the case why is someone like Lapis who can easily get a ton of bonus for maybe taking 1 extra turn considered far worse then someone like Kagetstu epsically when she can actually save turns over him when they are both around? Among other bonus she can have over him.

Here is the most simple example I can come up with: Suppose Kagetsu saves 3 turns over the course of a run just to throw out a number. Then suppose that training Chloe saves 4 turns over course of the game when Kagetsu isn't a wyvern. Then suppose that we can take 2 turns to train Lapis to save those 4 turns as an alternative to using Chloe. You have to count that against Lapis (it's important to note that just using her in a map isn't what's counted against her; it's taking those 2 turns to save the 4 that is), but this doesn't affect Kagetsu at all because he's still saving 3 turns regardless. We don't just have to use Kagetsu as an example here though; you can extend that logic to some other units that I've mentioned already.

Edited March 21, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

29 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

It's not that complicated. Unless you mismanage staff use to a hilarious degree there shouldn't be that much of a difference. Experience management is another thing, but it's still not going to result in a lot of turns over the course of the run. Consistency might take a hit depending, but experience management is more of a concern in a strict LTC.

Here is the most simple example I can come up with: Suppose Kagetsu saves 3 turns over the course of a run just to throw out a number. Then suppose that training Chloe saves 4 turns over course of the game when Kagetsu isn't a wyvern. Then suppose that we can take 2 turns to train Lapis to save those 4 turns as an alternative to using Chloe. You have to count that against Lapis (it's important to note that just using her in a map isn't what's counted against her; it's taking those 2 turns to save the 4 that is), but this doesn't affect Kagetsu at all because he's still saving 3 turns regardless. We don't just have to use Kagetsu as an example here though; you can extend that logic to some other units that I've mentioned already.

I don't really see how this goes against my point. 

 

OKay but then what if Kagetsu saves those 3, Lapis loses 2 but then saves 6 making her total saved 4? Obviously these aren't accurate numbers. but as iv said to some other people there is no world where being compared to what most see as the best character in the game bad. epsically when they actually do have arguments for and against them 

[samthedigital]

6 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

OKay but then what if Kagetsu saves those 3, Lapis loses 2 but then saves 6 making her total saved 4?

If a unit that saved those extra turns didn't exist it would make her the better unit. In our example Chloe can instead save those turns without losing them. We would evaluate Lapis based on how much she contributes when Chloe saves those turns instead of assuming that Lapis is losing time over the course of a run.

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I don't really see how this goes against my point. 

It was further addressed in the second example, but the point is that in a practical sense you're overthinking it.

[Skyteppelin]

45 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

If a unit that saved those extra turns didn't exist it would make her the better unit. In our example Chloe can instead save those turns without losing them. We would evaluate Lapis based on how much she contributes when Chloe saves those turns instead of assuming that Lapis is losing time over the course of a run.

It was further addressed in the second example, but the point is that in a practical sense you're overthinking it.

But that still wouldn't make Lapis bad if she can compare to the best if Lapis and Chloe save the same turns when they are both around then both should be basically the same tier. In a LTC setting anyway. 

I don't think I am, I think that any game is about far more then one aspect of it. Everything comes as a whole, focusing on only one metric no matter how important only surveys to narrow are view and not give us the full picture.