Lapis in comparison to Chloe and Kagetsu. Why I think Lapis is better or at least just as good.

[Anathaco]

3 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

See I get what your saying but I just don't think it apply's. Especially cause with Lapis she like you mention with different match ups or works better with different play styles does matter. Has Benefits over Kagestu, earlier Wyvern, Part 1 emblem access, more chapters to help. Also has benefits over Chloe, high base strength on average, better defenses, and doesn't need any training.  Which of course the reveres is true but that just shows that redundancy isn't a factor for them. Also when it comes to redundancy I don't think its a big deal, it doesn't matter if Yang is redundant he is still good. If Yun is S tier does it make sense for Yang to be D tier when they are so similar? Does it make more sense for Yang to suddenly jump from D to S tier if Yun was removed or banned or whatever, or does it make more sense for Yang to just already be in A or S tier (below Yun in this case.) 

Cause we don't like the fighting game example will just use FE. Does it make sense for Kagetsu to be S tier and Lapis to be D tier? Just for Lapis to jump into S tier if Kagetsu was removed? I know everyone will say "but chloe is in the game to" So okay then if Chloe was gone does lapis suddenly Jump up 5 whole tiers? Or does it make more sense for her to just already be close to them in the first place. Which becomes even crazier when you do factor in that Lapis does have benefits over both of them. This is what makes this insane to me, units should always assume they are being used to their fullest potential and to me these 3 are very similar when used that way. 

For the sake of curiosity (and at the risk of going completely off topic) how do you feel about, say, Framme vs Hortensia? Both of them are dedicated staff bots, but Hortensia has her own unique advantages that lead to her being put in S in a lot of tier lists, where I usually see Framme around C. The availability discrepancy is even larger between these two than it is between Lapis/Kagetsu, but even still Framme gets almost no love.

Lapis may have the availability advantage, but her main issue is simply that not enough people see that as enough to compete with Kagetsu’s… everything else. Same with the healer comparison- Framme is a good healer who does her job when you get her, yet Hortensia’s advantages completely outweigh that on most tier lists.

I’m not saying that Lapis/Framme should always be benched as soon as their stronger counterparts join, but that using those counterparts is more likely to make the game (overall) easier for you.

And yeah if your personal play style results in Lapis becoming a monster to surpass even the mighty Kagetsu then that’s totally valid. It’s just that the fact that it is seemingly a play style thing makes it harder to generalise Lapis as top tier in the same way that Kagetsu is universally seen as god.

RE: redundancy and the fighting game stuff, I believe since most tier lists account for placings in tournaments, removing a similar character from the game would bump them up. Consider Marth vs Lucina in more recent smash games. Marth has his tipper mechanic that can make his attacks hit harder, whereas Lucina’s damage is more balanced along her entire blade. AFAIK (and keep in mind I don’t play too much smash) they’re played basically the same way, but Marth has a greater emphasis on spacing to get his best results. Some players prefer Marth’s greater damage potential, others prefer Lucina’s consistency. But if you look at the most recent tier list (I just used the smash wiki tier list), Lucina is a whole two tiers above Marth. Lucina gets better results because more top players prefer her consistency, so Marth gets used less and hence he drops tiers. Get rid of Lucina and many of these players would pick up Marth and raise his ranking (or so I’d guess).

So, yeah I’d argue redundancy can totally exist on fighting game tier lists- something like your Yun/Yang scenario could totally happen, even if most of the time the similar characters do end up in similar spots.

(Disclaimer that I am not as familiar with competitive smash as I’d like to appear, there may be other reasons for the Marth/Lucina differences I’m not aware of, but yeah)

[samthedigital]

24 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

RE: redundancy and the fighting game stuff, I believe since most tier lists account for placings in tournaments, removing a similar character from the game would bump them up. Consider Marth vs Lucina in more recent smash games. Marth has his tipper mechanic that can make his attacks hit harder, whereas Lucina’s damage is more balanced along her entire blade. AFAIK (and keep in mind I don’t play too much smash) they’re played basically the same way, but Marth has a greater emphasis on spacing to get his best results. Some players prefer Marth’s greater damage potential, others prefer Lucina’s consistency. But if you look at the most recent tier list (I just used the smash wiki tier list), Lucina is a whole two tiers above Marth. Lucina gets better results because more top players prefer her consistency, so Marth gets used less and hence he drops tiers. Get rid of Lucina and many of these players would pick up Marth and raise his ranking (or so I’d guess).

I'm not completely confident about smash, but Pokemon "ratings/tiers" (not really the best word to use for that game though =P) are completely based off of their usage rate rather than a tier list, and a lot of the concepts you're describing apply there.

Edited March 22, 2023 by samthedigital

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

You again missed the point. This is comparing Lapis A to Lapis B and not Kagetsu to Lapis.

If you haven't already done the run why are you adamant that you're right? In any case when we tier characters in a fighting game we do not base it off of how the average player plays the game in much the same way that we wouldn't do it for Fire Emblem.

Except for the early game, and you value it for Lapis over Kagetsu, but not for Chloe over Lapis.

That was never the point I was trying to make so I guess you "missed" my point. More accurately id say its a mix of both of us missing the point and also not doing a great job at explaining our points.

Because unlike fighting games I don't think LTCs are the only metric we should consider. Also even when we are focusing only on top level play characters are again rated assuming they are being used the whole time. So characters that are both good are still both placed high because they are both good.

Its mainly cause I don't think Chloe is all that great early game she isn't really doing all that much to help until she can promo. she just grabbing kills when she can not real doing anything to help do anything faster. At least not in any crazy way, from everything iv seen its much more Celine, Loius, Vander speeding things up Chloe just grabs a kill here and there. 

[samthedigital]

1 minute ago, Skyteppelin said:

That was never the point I was trying to make so I guess you "missed" my point. More accurately id say its a mix of both of us missing the point and also not doing a great job at explaining our points.

You were responding to the point I made; not yours.

2 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Its mainly cause I don't think Chloe is all that great early game she isn't really doing all that much to help until she can promo. she just grabbing kills when she can not real doing anything to help do anything faster.

I implore you to watch ColonelM's playthrough. If I can't change your mind that might.

Quote

Because unlike fighting games I don't think LTCs are the only metric we should consider. Also even when we are focusing only on top level play characters are again rated assuming they are being used the whole time. So characters that are both good are still both placed high because they are both good.

This goes back to the point I made that you still seemingly don't understand. Anathaco made the same point though, so maybe if it comes from someone else's mouth you might find it to be more agreeable:
 

Quote

And yeah if your personal play style results in Lapis becoming a monster to surpass even the mighty Kagetsu then that’s totally valid. It’s just that the fact that it is seemingly a play style thing makes it harder to generalise Lapis as top tier in the same way that Kagetsu is universally seen as god.

 

[Skyteppelin]

37 minutes ago, Anathaco said:

For the sake of curiosity (and at the risk of going completely off topic) how do you feel about, say, Framme vs Hortensia? Both of them are dedicated staff bots, but Hortensia has her own unique advantages that lead to her being put in S in a lot of tier lists, where I usually see Framme around C. The availability discrepancy is even larger between these two than it is between Lapis/Kagetsu, but even still Framme gets almost no love.

Lapis may have the availability advantage, but her main issue is simply that not enough people see that as enough to compete with Kagetsu’s… everything else. Same with the healer comparison- Framme is a good healer who does her job when you get her, yet Hortensia’s advantages completely outweigh that on most tier lists.

I’m not saying that Lapis/Framme should always be benched as soon as their stronger counterparts join, but that using those counterparts is more likely to make the game (overall) easier for you.

And yeah if your personal play style results in Lapis becoming a monster to surpass even the mighty Kagetsu then that’s totally valid. It’s just that the fact that it is seemingly a play style thing makes it harder to generalise Lapis as top tier in the same way that Kagetsu is universally seen as god.

RE: redundancy and the fighting game stuff, I believe since most tier lists account for placings in tournaments, removing a similar character from the game would bump them up. Consider Marth vs Lucina in more recent smash games. Marth has his tipper mechanic that can make his attacks hit harder, whereas Lucina’s damage is more balanced along her entire blade. AFAIK (and keep in mind I don’t play too much smash) they’re played basically the same way, but Marth has a greater emphasis on spacing to get his best results. Some players prefer Marth’s greater damage potential, others prefer Lucina’s consistency. But if you look at the most recent tier list (I just used the smash wiki tier list), Lucina is a whole two tiers above Marth. Lucina gets better results because more top players prefer her consistency, so Marth gets used less and hence he drops tiers. Get rid of Lucina and many of these players would pick up Marth and raise his ranking (or so I’d guess).

So, yeah I’d argue redundancy can totally exist on fighting game tier lists- something like your Yun/Yang scenario could totally happen, even if most of the time the similar characters do end up in similar spots.

(Disclaimer that I am not as familiar with competitive smash as I’d like to appear, there may be other reasons for the Marth/Lucina differences I’m not aware of, but yeah)

Its tough Framme is fine heal bot when she is around but she tends to get merced by anything that touch's her. She isn't really helping with anything outside of healing unless you really feed her kills (which I do cause I like Framme). But outside of her staff which is nice she really isn't doing anything else, so like I think she is C tier at best mainly cause she really doesn't have anything going for her outside of staffs but staffs are good. 

But with Hortensia she has a lot of things going for her that isn't just staff use, she is one of the two flying tomes which is very unique utility that can't be replicated outside of ivy. Which lets her to some unique useful things like have corrin on thunder tome user that can fly, of course she has her personal skill that can save free staff uses which is god like. She has really high spd as well so you can even do fun lyn stuff on her which I digress. 

Lapis is different cause she can pretty much do everything kagetsu can with some things that he does better and she does better here and there. Lapis also isn't combat liability when you get her basically the exact opposite. So when you look at the comparisons side by side Lapis and Kagestu are a lot closer in what they can do then Framme and Hortensia can. But like if you want to use Framme as just a staff bot the whole game it works fine and can help you like any other staff bot can jsut don't expect much more from her (unless you are like me and give her all the kills like I did on my first run). I hope that answers your question. 


Your Pretty on point with the Marth vs Lucina. Id say the reason that happens is cause that difference ends up meaning a lot in the long run. While something like Yun and Yang the differences matter less cause there individual strengths are just so overwhelming compare to the rest of cast. It comes down much more to how they do vs the rest of cast not so much how they do vs each other. Although there is also tons of cases of characters who are top tier but don't actually win all that much. A lot of BB characters come to mind but I won't get into all that.  
 

[Skyteppelin]

9 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

You were responding to the point I made; not yours.

I implore you to watch ColonelM's playthrough. If I can't change your mind that might.

This goes back to the point I made that you still seemingly don't understand. Anathaco made the same point though, so maybe if it comes from someone else's mouth you might find it to be more agreeable:
 

 

Idk where we are at anymore.

I am in fact I talk to him about it every time he post about it cause he is my friend on discord. 

I think if more people actually used Lapis they would feel similar which is why I wanted to show that like hey its worth using her. 

[samthedigital]

20 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

I am in fact I talk to him about it every time he post about it cause he is my friend on discord.

If you're watching it you'll notice that some of his LTC strats can actually be pretty consistent and can totally apply to efficiency runs. If you develop some slightly different strategies that are a little slower you might even find ways of making them more consistent than having to rely on a few rewinds. Those are still pretty fast though.

Quote

Idk where we are at anymore.

To put it another way: The point that I am making is that Lapis is going to be a completely (loose definition of the word) different character depending on exactly how we play the game. This is a large reason why you disagree with me on her compared to Kagetsu. Should I change my perspective on the unit because she doesn't match Kagetsu by his join time? Conversely I'm not changing your mind, but that doesn't mean that I've played the game any worse, and there's a reason to compare Lapis to other characters in the context I've provided earlier.

20 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

I think if more people actually used Lapis they would feel similar which is why I wanted to show that like hey its worth using her.

As I said before I have no problem with what characters you use or suggest that others use, or even the methodology. I have also used her in my playthroughs several times because I like her as a character. What I don't find agreeable is to say that she's better than Kagetsu or Chloe; that's what the title implies and it's not universally true.

Edited March 22, 2023 by samthedigital

[asm335]

23 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Lapis is different cause she can pretty much do everything kagetsu can with some things that he does better and she does better here and there.

What exactly is Lapis better at than Kagetsu? He has higher HP, Strength, Speed, Defense, Luck, and Build while having basically the same Res and Magic. There isn’t much left outside of personals and Kagetsu wins that one too.

[Skyteppelin]

55 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

If you're watching it you'll notice that some of his LTC strats can actually be pretty consistent and can totally apply to efficiency runs. If you develop some slightly different strategies that are a little slower you might even find ways of making them more consistent than having to rely on a few rewinds. Those are still pretty fast though.

To put it another way: The point that I am making is that Lapis is going to be a completely (loose definition of the word) different character depending on exactly how we play the game. This is a large reason why you disagree with me on her compared to Kagetsu. Should I change my perspective on the unit because she doesn't match Kagetsu by his join time? Conversely I'm not changing your mind, but that doesn't mean that I've played the game any worse, and there's a reason to compare Lapis to other characters in the context I've provided earlier.

As I said before I have no problem with what characters you use or suggest that others use, or even the methodology. I have also used her in my playthroughs several times because I like her as a character. What I don't find agreeable is to say that she's better than Kagetsu or Chloe; that's what the title implies and it's not universally true.

Indeed they are quite good and neat, don't really think Chloe is carrying them seems more Celine and Loiuse are though but yea CM is great. 

Right and I don't think she would be nor do I think its the only thing that matters (which I will do the run to see how exactly it plays out). But no I don't think your playing the game worse. 

my title does have two parts to it, I called her the queen of maddening on reddit and that got a ton of negative response. So I did change this title to better OR at least just as good. Maybe it would be even better to say or just as good rather then at least just as good but then we are really getting into the weeds of it. 

 

 

1 hour ago, asm335 said:

What exactly is Lapis better at than Kagetsu? He has higher HP, Strength, Speed, Defense, Luck, and Build while having basically the same Res and Magic. There isn’t much left outside of personals and Kagetsu wins that one too.

She can do early wyv, is around for longer, and access to part 1 skills  (earlier DLC access if you want to add that as well which changes a lot of things). Also that her stats even if slightly worse depending on how its been done don't change what they can do all that much.  Also stat boosters but I never mention those cause talking about them tends to never go over well. 

[samthedigital]

18 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Indeed they are quite good and neat, don't really think Chloe is carrying them seems more Celine and Loiuse are though but yea CM is great. 

It's not necessarily about carrying so much as doing work that Lapis can't do because she doesn't exist yet, and she's more useful relatively speaking because there aren't as many units. During the warp chapters anyone can use warp, and there are multiple setups to kill bosses where neither unit is required, so their contributions aren't as valuable. Chapter 11 is much the same without warp. Chapter 13 is the only one where they're going to hard carry the run where Kagetsu doesn't have wings, and then I'm not sure on the reliability.

edit: naming error

Edited March 23, 2023 by samthedigital

[asm335]

9 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Indeed they are quite good and neat, don't really think Chloe is carrying them seems more Celine and Loiuse are though but yea CM is great. 

Right and I don't think she would be nor do I think its the only thing that matters (which I will do the run to see how exactly it plays out). But no I don't think your playing the game worse. 

my title does have two parts to it, I called her the queen of maddening on reddit and that got a ton of negative response. So I did change this title to better OR at least just as good. Maybe it would be even better to say or just as good rather then at least just as good but then we are really getting into the weeds of it. 

 

 

She can do early wyv, is around for longer, and access to part 1 skills  (earlier DLC access if you want to add that as well which changes a lot of things). Also that her stats even if slightly worse depending on how its been done don't change what they can do all that much.  Also stat boosters but I never mention those cause talking about them tends to never go over well. 

Yes. If you just give Lapis 2 energy drops, 1 Seraph Robe, 5 secret books, 2 speedwings, 5 goddess icons, and 2 dracoshields, boom, she’s just as good as Kagetsu.

[Colonel M]

Since my run was mentioned I kind of want to note a couple things.

Most of Chloe saving turns is more that she's mobile enough to help in maps such as Chapter 6. Hell it is actually a little more questionable if she needed Boots right now, but I think later on it'll still be worth it.

I'm just going to detail everything here ONLY because I want this more noted for LTC discussion and not necessarily for other styles of play, but I'll talk about that in detail here as well.

This is not me asking to be part of the horse race. This is just me slinging information.

- Chapter 4, Chloe does not necessarily save turns; however, her and Louis are integral for getting the 1000 Gold. We also believe there may be a way to squeeze another kill into Chloe here that we all missed - something with the AI, but would need testing to confirm.

- Chapter 5, Chloe for the most part is just helping keep people alive at most. This is probably more an EXP Chapter. Though, bear in mind that the process doesn't really cost turns and IIRC resource wise wasn't too bad with DLC in mind. The detriment to Alear's EXP has been inconsequential so far and I believe won't be affected in the end.

- Chapter 6, while Louis Vander and Celine are doing a lot of the work, Chloe and Alfred do help because they're the most mobile. Her being able to double that Barbarian is nice to have, but as I said in the video a Defense Tonic should allow Louis to brace impact. Though I am not sure if you can reach afterwards without Canter and moving all the way. Alfred has the bush that inhibits his movement a bit, so there is that.

- Jean Paralogue is really where Chloe technically saves some turns because she can contribute a lot to the action with some inheritance. Doing this map is mandatory if you want to 1 Turn Chapter 7. Yunaka can do some things, and actually Vander can be an alternative here if Im understanding Adyline's clear.

- Chapter 7 1 Turn demands having Chloe at the forefront. Rewarping Alfred, Alear, Celine, and Chloe to the front to have Alear kill the Greataxe Cavalier, Alfred and Celine kill Hortensia once, and then Chloe Raging Storms an Archer (with Boots) and House Unite for the second bosskill.

So let me explain a few problems here from an efficiency standpoint only because I want to make it clear my metric is not just LTC, though as I've noted in my Reddit Post I will heavily consider it. While I'll give you that Chloe does not save turns and, in some ways, does not make major impacts to 4, 5, and 6, she still helps a lot with these in other ways. The other thing is investing in her early does also give some breathing room for your army and makes that Jean 2 Turn more reliable. You're probably going to point to Alear in that chapter, but bear in mind as I said that I needed her to do what she did for now because I was uncertain on some skill book usage. Consider that to 2 Turn I have to already put 500 SP into a "dead slot" (Yunaka) and Chloe would take a great deal to replicate roughly what she did here. I have to check the math but if you don't give her Energy Drop I think (emphasis think) she needs Level 16 Edelgard to 2HKO the Axe Fighter in Turn 1. That bush is a huge block to other units - I think only Vander can reach that Axe Fighter and he fails to double with Hand Axe.

So back to efficiency, Chloe is probably a bigger help here if she's invested in early. Chapter 6 for example has a lot of enemies that you'd rather kill as quickly as possible to keep people alive. If Chloe is up there in Chapter 5 she just gets more exp in the process, so she probably saves you some Arena work which opens up using the Arena for Alear. Basically her savings come in other ways.

I'll just stop there for now since there isn't anything else to add here. If you want my opinion, I'm considering an educational video discussing it. It probably will be after Chapter 8 since the gacha rings will tie me up a lot. 7 I just got Warp, so Anna Paralogue is my next stop for another Warp.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Colonel M

[Skyteppelin]

14 hours ago, samthedigital said:

It's not necessarily about carrying so much as doing work that Lapis can't do because she doesn't exist yet, and she's more useful relatively speaking because there aren't as many units. During the warp chapters anyone can use warp, and there are multiple setups to kill bosses where neither unit is required, so their contributions aren't as valuable. Chapter 11 is much the same without warp. Chapter 13 is the only one where they're going to hard carry the run where Kagetsu doesn't have wings, and then I'm not sure on the reliability.

edit: naming error

I guess more what I meant is that Chloe isn't really doing all that much cause she is just grabbing XP where she can. 
 

10 hours ago, asm335 said:

Yes. If you just give Lapis 2 energy drops, 1 Seraph Robe, 5 secret books, 2 speedwings, 5 goddess icons, and 2 dracoshields, boom, she’s just as good as Kagetsu.

This is why I said what I said lol. I find it strange that the idea of giving any unit the stat boosters is bad thing, like Lapis with a energy drop basically turns into a earlier second kagetsu. And idk what world getting a earlier version  of the "best" unit in the game is some how seen as a bad thing but most people seem to think it is. Like in any other game iv ever played if i was just trying to win as easily as I could, being offered a chance to get another copy of what was considered the best thing would be a no brainer choice.  But yes this is exactly why I don't bring it up cause people come out it with like "oh yea just give X unit a resource that is meant to be used and make unit stronger to any unit makes them worse" I really don't get the logic but cause its such a common response and an annoying one at that I don't bring it up. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Colonel M said:

Since my run was mentioned I kind of want to note a couple things.

Most of Chloe saving turns is more that she's mobile enough to help in maps such as Chapter 6. Hell it is actually a little more questionable if she needed Boots right now, but I think later on it'll still be worth it.

I'm just going to detail everything here ONLY because I want this more noted for LTC discussion and not necessarily for other styles of play, but I'll talk about that in detail here as well.

This is not me asking to be part of the horse race. This is just me slinging information.

- Chapter 4, Chloe does not necessarily save turns; however, her and Louis are integral for getting the 1000 Gold. We also believe there may be a way to squeeze another kill into Chloe here that we all missed - something with the AI, but would need testing to confirm.

- Chapter 5, Chloe for the most part is just helping keep people alive at most. This is probably more an EXP Chapter. Though, bear in mind that the process doesn't really cost turns and IIRC resource wise wasn't too bad with DLC in mind. The detriment to Alear's EXP has been inconsequential so far and I believe won't be affected in the end.

- Chapter 6, while Louis Vander and Celine are doing a lot of the work, Chloe and Alfred do help because they're the most mobile. Her being able to double that Barbarian is nice to have, but as I said in the video a Defense Tonic should allow Louis to brace impact. Though I am not sure if you can reach afterwards without Canter and moving all the way. Alfred has the bush that inhibits his movement a bit, so there is that.

- Jean Paralogue is really where Chloe technically saves some turns because she can contribute a lot to the action with some inheritance. Doing this map is mandatory if you want to 1 Turn Chapter 7. Yunaka can do some things, and actually Vander can be an alternative here if Im understanding Adyline's clear.

- Chapter 7 1 Turn demands having Chloe at the forefront. Rewarping Alfred, Alear, Celine, and Chloe to the front to have Alear kill the Greataxe Cavalier, Alfred and Celine kill Hortensia once, and then Chloe Raging Storms an Archer (with Boots) and House Unite for the second bosskill.

So let me explain a few problems here from an efficiency standpoint only because I want to make it clear my metric is not just LTC, though as I've noted in my Reddit Post I will heavily consider it. While I'll give you that Chloe does not save turns and, in some ways, does not make major impacts to 4, 5, and 6, she still helps a lot with these in other ways. The other thing is investing in her early does also give some breathing room for your army and makes that Jean 2 Turn more reliable. You're probably going to point to Alear in that chapter, but bear in mind as I said that I needed her to do what she did for now because I was uncertain on some skill book usage. Consider that to 2 Turn I have to already put 500 SP into a "dead slot" (Yunaka) and Chloe would take a great deal to replicate roughly what she did here. I have to check the math but if you don't give her Energy Drop I think (emphasis think) she needs Level 16 Edelgard to 2HKO the Axe Fighter in Turn 1. That bush is a huge block to other units - I think only Vander can reach that Axe Fighter and he fails to double with Hand Axe.

So back to efficiency, Chloe is probably a bigger help here if she's invested in early. Chapter 6 for example has a lot of enemies that you'd rather kill as quickly as possible to keep people alive. If Chloe is up there in Chapter 5 she just gets more exp in the process, so she probably saves you some Arena work which opens up using the Arena for Alear. Basically her savings come in other ways.

I'll just stop there for now since there isn't anything else to add here. If you want my opinion, I'm considering an educational video discussing it. It probably will be after Chapter 8 since the gacha rings will tie me up a lot. 7 I just got Warp, so Anna Paralogue is my next stop for another Warp.

Thank you thank you CM, I do wonder if it has to be Chloe or  couldn't be some other units but I get it. I do find it funny how much Chloe needs to be given to be considered useful but I understand that it serves a good purpose but it is funny cause me suggestion Lapis to get favorable treatment is seen as the biggest slight on her viability. Can't say I fully agree with the mind set 

[asm335]

3 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

I really don't get the logic but cause its such a common response and an annoying one at that I don't bring it up. 

It’s not that you’re not supposed to use them or anything like that. You certainly are and if you are using Lapis, for example, she is an excellent candidate for an energy drop. It’s just that when you’re comparing units, you can’t just assume that you give stat boosters to one and not the other. Plus, there’s opportunity cost to giving them to any unit. Any stat booster given to unit x is a stat booster not given to unit y.

[Skyteppelin]

37 minutes ago, asm335 said:

It’s not that you’re not supposed to use them or anything like that. You certainly are and if you are using Lapis, for example, she is an excellent candidate for an energy drop. It’s just that when you’re comparing units, you can’t just assume that you give stat boosters to one and not the other. Plus, there’s opportunity cost to giving them to any unit. Any stat booster given to unit x is a stat booster not given to unit y.

Right but then I think of something like jill in fe 9 or 10 who everyone says to give stat boosters and BP xp to cause she is the best return on investment. So is it not fair to make similar argument for Lapis? 

[asm335]

9 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

Right but then I think of something like jill in fe 9 or 10 who everyone says to give stat boosters and BP xp to cause she is the best return on investment. So is it not fair to make similar argument for Lapis? 

No, because Lapis isn’t bringing anything unique to the table. You can make anyone a flier in this game if you want and anyone can use any weapon.
 

Look, this is nothing against Lapis. She’s a fine unit. However, she doesn’t have anything that differentiates her from others. Her personal isn’t good like Panette’s for example. She doesn’t have access to a unique class or ability like Ivy, Hortensia, or even Alcryst. So at that point, it’s mostly just a stats race. And she fares pretty well in that! Being Diet Kagetsu is far from the indictment you make it seem like simply because Kagetsu is absurd. Plenty of units in this game would love to be Diet Kagetsu (poor Rosado).

[BloodRonin]

57 minutes ago, asm335 said:

poor Rosado

F in chat for our boy.

[Skyteppelin]

1 hour ago, asm335 said:

No, because Lapis isn’t bringing anything unique to the table. You can make anyone a flier in this game if you want and anyone can use any weapon.
 

Look, this is nothing against Lapis. She’s a fine unit. However, she doesn’t have anything that differentiates her from others. Her personal isn’t good like Panette’s for example. She doesn’t have access to a unique class or ability like Ivy, Hortensia, or even Alcryst. So at that point, it’s mostly just a stats race. And she fares pretty well in that! Being Diet Kagetsu is far from the indictment you make it seem like simply because Kagetsu is absurd. Plenty of units in this game would love to be Diet Kagetsu (poor Rosado).

Nah I ain't the one who thinks its an indictment that's why iv been arguing this for so long cause I think opposite I think it makes her just as amazing. Everyone else seems to be one that thinks its an indictment I won't be sitting her arguing she is just as good if I thought her being "diet" Kagestu was bad thing.   As for the whole stat boosters thing I don't having a unique class matters all that much just cause the speed stars are just like the best combat units so any one of them getting Stat boosters is what you want to do. I favor Lapis the most cause she is actually amazing from min one, while Chloe def needs to get level 10 before she really starts shinning and Kagetsu just comes after 2 E drops that I could have already used. That's my logic anyway, stat boosters need to be used on someone and while you need to considered every unit when I look at it if stat boosters on Lapis make her better then the best unit in the game to most people I think that's a pretty worth wild investment. 

[samthedigital]

17 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

I guess more what I meant is that Chloe isn't really doing all that much cause she is just grabbing XP where she can. 

That's effectively what Lapis is doing too until chapter 12/13.

edit: I'm going on vacation for a week and I won't be looking at this while I'm gone (you can probably find me on discord if you care; I'm not that difficult to find there), so a few more things to outline before I go.

1. A lot of units can help kill bosses in the warp skip chapters from 8-10. The only reason we'd prefer one over the other early on is for future investment.

2. Units should get credit for any positive thing they can do as long as it's not a detriment to the team. This means that Chloe killing enemies is for her benefit, but it also helps with chapter clears. It also means that she is better than a unit who doesn't exist yet in the same way that Lapis is over Kagetsu for a few chapters. ColonelM outlined a few things that Chloe does in the context of his playthrough, so I won't go further into it.

Quote

Kagetsu just comes after 2 E drops that I could have already used.

3. That's also the case for Lapis (it's an argument a lot of people would make for Chloe>Lapis), but Kagetsu is basically a fully fed Lapis/Chloe that we get for free.

Edited March 24, 2023 by samthedigital

[asm335]

2 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

That's my logic anyway, stat boosters need to be used on someone and while you need to considered every unit when I look at it if stat boosters on Lapis make her better then the best unit in the game to most people I think that's a pretty worth wild investment. 

The problem with this logic is that you could do this with a lot of different units. Go ahead and pump Framme full of stat boosters, promote her to Wyvern at level 10, and see what happens. You'll end up with a unit shockingly similar to the Lapis you've been creating.

[ciphertul]

43 minutes ago, asm335 said:

The problem with this logic is that you could do this with a lot of different units. Go ahead and pump Framme full of stat boosters, promote her to Wyvern at level 10, and see what happens. You'll end up with a unit shockingly similar to the Lapis you've been creating.

But how is that a problem? While the title here is misleading, nothing wrong with experimenting.

[Zanarkin]

35 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

But how is that a problem? While the title here is misleading, nothing wrong with experimenting.

I think the problem is making unfair comparisons.

Realistically, if you are giving x amount of stat boosters to a unit, you should compare the other unit with the same amount of stat boosters. Yes they can't both get it on one play through, but that's the point. The best units, will always be the ones that use the resources you give them to great effect. So if you find Lapis to still be worse than Chloe or Kagetsu when given the same amount of resources, then Lapis is still worse (in terms of stats) to Chloe or Kagetsu.

Note that just because a unit is worse, doesn't mean they are bad or you are wasting time using them.

Also, I have trouble with the moving goal-posts going on here. The title claims that Lapis is as good or better than Kagetsu, when thats proven wrong, all of a sudden it was just about experimenting and trying stuff out? You know, it is ok to be wrong, as long as you can admit you were wrong and call it a day.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Zanarkin

[SSJDennis]

Just got to the point Lapis joins my army. In chapter 7 she was very squishy and couldn't make a big impact. Chloe just got to level 10, so I am able to promote both if I wanted too.

Chloe had some fair use of the Marth emblem ring, so got to level 8 naturally. Lapis would still require some bond fragments (but we have plenty anyway).

Even though I play on fixed growths, I am not sure if the stats I see are a good comparison. Chloe has better stats in all but atk(-1) and res(-2). By this comparison I would just keep using Chloe. But if I didn't use her up until this point, I guess Lapis would be a good substitute. But if I didn't, why would I want a flyer by now...

I would agree both are "the same" stat wise. But Chloe gets more chapters to be good at. If Chloe is S, Lapis would be A in my book. If Chloe is A, guess Lapis is bottom A. If Chloe is mid A, I guess that makes Lapis B.

Seeing her "poor" contribution in chapter 7, I am not sure how she would dominate the enemy phases. But if she can, so can Chloe, who has 2 more speed, so would double faster (also more bld).

At the moment I don't need another growth unit and don't have a spare master or second seal. Why would I turn Lapis into my Wyvern instead of Chloe?

In proving your point, you should calculate the expected stats of Chloe by the end of chapter 7 (level 10). Compare both in the same class (Wyvern) and highest stats (both have similar growths, right?) would win.

If Lapis had superior stats, I would switch Chloe out without problem. Will give Lapis some time to help out, but not sure who not to deploy, especially now also Citrine joined. Next chapter is a two turn for me, even when playing casually.

I think Lapis could potentially be a (very) good unit, but joins just a bit too late. But I agree her and Chloe are interchangeably. She is definitely better if Chloe can't make it to lv10 by the end of chapter 7.

Just my two cents.

[Skyteppelin]

4 hours ago, samthedigital said:

That's effectively what Lapis is doing too until chapter 12/13.

edit: I'm going on vacation for a week and I won't be looking at this while I'm gone (you can probably find me on discord if you care; I'm not that difficult to find there), so a few more things to outline before I go.

1. A lot of units can help kill bosses in the warp skip chapters from 8-10. The only reason we'd prefer one over the other early on is for future investment.

2. Units should get credit for any positive thing they can do as long as it's not a detriment to the team. This means that Chloe killing enemies is for her benefit, but it also helps with chapter clears. It also means that she is better than a unit who doesn't exist yet in the same way that Lapis is over Kagetsu for a few chapters. ColonelM outlined a few things that Chloe does in the context of his playthrough, so I won't go further into it.

3. That's also the case for Lapis (it's an argument a lot of people would make for Chloe>Lapis), but Kagetsu is basically a fully fed Lapis/Chloe that we get for free.

1. indeed just Lapis is one of the best long term options cause she the spd to stay ahead of the curve just making it easier overall.

2. I talked with CM extensively about this last night and I don't want to speak for the guy so CM can correct me on anything. But with what he showed me and what we discussed. We basically came to the agreement that the only turns that Chloe herself helps save is a turn on Jean chapter. She doesn't actually do anything to help save turns on any chapter before that, she's just around gathering XP. Then on chapter 7 there is a turn 1 clear with Chloe but there from what I understand are other turn 1 clears that don't involve her (this I might be wrong about not 100%). Then from then on Lapis can replace Chloe, Lapis can also OHKO the boss of Anna chapter while Chloe can't idk if this changes anything about doing the chapter but is something there.  CM was telling me that the only reason to keep using Chloe is the sunk cost of having already got edelgard to bond 12 with her.  So if bond isn't a problem then Lapis will play the exact same as Chloe from then on just slightly stronger. Also mentioned how there very will could be other ways to turn 2 jean chapter.  Which all being said at least proves to me that they really shouldn't be any different in a tier list setting unless you just really really really vaule that 1 turn that Chloe saves (Which from what I understand Lapis might be able to get back on Anna chapter but not sure) 

 3. Lapis comes before 1 E drop Chloe comes before 2, not counting the 3rd DLC one.  But again this is why I didn't want bring up stat boosters cause it just gets into this messy water that no one is going to agree on. Like if you asked me I think giving them to Lapis is better cause she already has higher Str then Chloe and can get things that kagetsu can't so her middle ground in this case works out well for her. BUt most people won't agree.

Have fun on your vacation btw!! 
 

3 hours ago, asm335 said:

The problem with this logic is that you could do this with a lot of different units. Go ahead and pump Framme full of stat boosters, promote her to Wyvern at level 10, and see what happens. You'll end up with a unit shockingly similar to the Lapis you've been creating.

Framme will not, I can tell you right now as someone who uses her she will not. Lapis also only needs 1 stat booster while Framme would need like literally all of them and even then would prob only match Lapis let alone kagetsu. 
 

2 hours ago, Zanarkin said:

I think the problem is making unfair comparisons.

Realistically, if you are giving x amount of stat boosters to a unit, you should compare the other unit with the same amount of stat boosters. Yes they can't both get it on one play through, but that's the point. The best units, will always be the ones that use the resources you give them to great effect. So if you find Lapis to still be worse than Chloe or Kagetsu when given the same amount of resources, then Lapis is still worse (in terms of stats) to Chloe or Kagetsu.

Note that just because a unit is worse, doesn't mean they are bad or you are wasting time using them.

Also, I have trouble with the moving goal-posts going on here. The title claims that Lapis is as good or better than Kagetsu, when thats proven wrong, all of a sudden it was just about experimenting and trying stuff out? You know, it is ok to be wrong, as long as you can admit you were wrong and call it a day.

Again why I didn't want to bring up stat boosters. Although for me I don't find Lapis to be a worse kagetsu or Chloe with stat boosters I find her to be better but I digress.

Is that the case? Cause most people seem to think otherwise.

As for goal post moving I agree that its been happening but I don't think its me who is doing it at least mostly Iv def done it a little bit. I have no problems with being proven wrong CM has done it a bunch. But I'm also not going to say I have been proven wrong when I felt I haven't been, its not about being afraid to be proven wrong its simply feelinng that I haven't and I could extend to same sentiment to anyone else. I won't cause to me this really was never about proving someone wrong just showing how good Lapis was. 

2 hours ago, SSJDennis said:

Just got to the point Lapis joins my army. In chapter 7 she was very squishy and couldn't make a big impact. Chloe just got to level 10, so I am able to promote both if I wanted too.

Chloe had some fair use of the Marth emblem ring, so got to level 8 naturally. Lapis would still require some bond fragments (but we have plenty anyway).

Even though I play on fixed growths, I am not sure if the stats I see are a good comparison. Chloe has better stats in all but atk(-1) and res(-2). By this comparison I would just keep using Chloe. But if I didn't use her up until this point, I guess Lapis would be a good substitute. But if I didn't, why would I want a flyer by now...

I would agree both are "the same" stat wise. But Chloe gets more chapters to be good at. If Chloe is S, Lapis would be A in my book. If Chloe is A, guess Lapis is bottom A. If Chloe is mid A, I guess that makes Lapis B.

Seeing her "poor" contribution in chapter 7, I am not sure how she would dominate the enemy phases. But if she can, so can Chloe, who has 2 more speed, so would double faster (also more bld).

At the moment I don't need another growth unit and don't have a spare master or second seal. Why would I turn Lapis into my Wyvern instead of Chloe?

In proving your point, you should calculate the expected stats of Chloe by the end of chapter 7 (level 10). Compare both in the same class (Wyvern) and highest stats (both have similar growths, right?) would win.

If Lapis had superior stats, I would switch Chloe out without problem. Will give Lapis some time to help out, but not sure who not to deploy, especially now also Citrine joined. Next chapter is a two turn for me, even when playing casually.

I think Lapis could potentially be a (very) good unit, but joins just a bit too late. But I agree her and Chloe are interchangeably. She is definitely better if Chloe can't make it to lv10 by the end of chapter 7.

Just my two cents.

 While of course Id swap Chloe and Lapis parring cause I think other units are worth raising over Chloe in the early game (mainly Celine and Alear) I think this is a fair analysis. Personally I always use both cause both are very flex able so one can be my marth user and the other my sigurd user. 

Also yea they both dominate EP with promo onto swordmaster or griffen knight, and marth. Also they have the sae build just for clarity's sake. But yea overall I vibe with what you are saying.

[Zanarkin]

2 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Is that the case? Cause most people seem to think otherwise.

You can enjoy the game using op units, units that need a lot of babying, or using a mix of them. It is your game, and if someone says you are playing wrong, they missed the point of something being a game.  It is also important to see the context of tier lists. They are typically done in the sense of which units will lead you to most easily beat the game, often with LTC in mind for fire emblem. That doesn't mean you have to value that. It also not impossible to accomplish 'good' runs with non S-tier units. The run wouldn't be as easy, but it should still be possible to get 'good' results.