Maddening DLC Tier List - Because I like arguing on the internet

[Colonel M]

Tier Lists are like assholes - everyone has one.

- Sun Tzu or Napoleon idk

Basic Tier List rules. If you need like some summary of the rules, you can re-refer to the rules in here.

(Not ordered atm btw).

Also keep in mind that some units are ranked higher because what they offer early on is invaluable and difficult to replicate / replace. That's why Vander is B folks.

Criteria is efficiency / LTC. Face it folks - Jean and Anna suck. Rewind and Bond Rings are assumed (within reason). Reliability is preferred, but not necessary (because Entrapping is kind of a shaky scenario but it's often at the first or second turn).

What would a non-DLC Tier List Look Like?

I think it would be roughly the same to be honest. Maybe some units like Chloe lose a little and maybe Celine is a bit more in C, but that's all I can think of at the moment. Basically, it'd look like the DLC Tier list, probably, like below.

Finally, putting some of my current thoughts in the Spoiler tag but keep in mind that I am still evaluating a lot and want to also watch over some playthroughs. I'd also like to get another run or two of my own.

Spoiler

Zelkov re-evaluation.

Merrin re-evaluation.

Amber "evaluation".

I'd like to test more with Mauvier and see if he sticks on some other classes. His bases are pretty well-rounded. Royal Knight isn't bad, but he has things like B Staves as Griffin Knight for example.

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Colonel M

[Scaramuccia]

Feels so wrong on so many levels.

I suppose difficulty is maddening, but what is the criteria for it? Endgame potential, overall potential, how critical is the unit/emblem to finish the game, do you care about team composition or evaluate units based on their own power, are you comparing invested units or underinvested units, ltc/non-ltc etc.

 

[SSJDennis]

I think you shouldn't blend in Emblem Rings in the same tier. Looks rather confusing (me thinks).

Also kind of confused about the title. Title is DLC tier list, on topic text: non-DLC. But the third picture is Edelgard, right?

[samthedigital]

47 minutes ago, Scaramuccia said:

Feels so wrong on so many levels.

I suppose difficulty is maddening, but what is the criteria for it? Endgame potential, overall potential, how critical is the unit/emblem to finish the game, do you care about team composition or evaluate units based on their own power, are you comparing invested units or underinvested units, ltc/non-ltc etc.

 

You'll want to read the spoiler in the link he provided for details on how he evaluates characters. There's also a link there to Vykan's tier list FAQ which further explains things.

The tl;dr is that every unit is ranked based on how valuable they are for clearing the game quickly and reliably (using turn counts as a metric, but favoring reliability over pure LTC when applicable), so units like Vander get a bump up even though he doesn't scale very well into the endgame while a unit like Anna takes a lot of time to get going, so she's not a good unit.

It might be worth clarifying if RNG abuse (I'm thinking about bond rings in particular) and the rewind mechanic are factored in at all though. I'm not sure if they would impact rankings a whole lot, but they do have an effect on what constitutes as reliable.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by samthedigital

[Speedy]

I'm wating for my tier list after I finish maddening, but I already disagree with placement of Jean, Anna and Vander. 😄 There is definetly more, but these are the most obvious ones.

[Scaramuccia]

I don't see that huge difference between Chloe and Lapis if you value units on their own. Yes Chloe comes earlier, but by around ch 10 they could be built very similar and work in a very similar role. I could understand a rank or two difference, but S vs C is confusing.

Also there is a strong argument for Etie - you probably want to run a dedicated archer as there are many many fliers in the game and she could be built as a reliable solution to enemy fliers problem.

[Colonel M]

15 hours ago, Scaramuccia said:

Feels so wrong on so many levels.

I suppose difficulty is maddening, but what is the criteria for it? Endgame potential, overall potential, how critical is the unit/emblem to finish the game, do you care about team composition or evaluate units based on their own power, are you comparing invested units or underinvested units, ltc/non-ltc etc.

 

Efficiency / LTC. I suppose it's been a hot minute, but if you know me I don't assume anything else.

14 hours ago, SSJDennis said:

I think you shouldn't blend in Emblem Rings in the same tier. Looks rather confusing (me thinks).

Also kind of confused about the title. Title is DLC tier list, on topic text: non-DLC. But the third picture is Edelgard, right?

I just did it for a crack because some people were always kind of like "how would you rank them", but to be honest I'm thinking about just scrapping it because I think the majority of the rings have a fairly even playing field except Byleth / Micaiah / sort of Sigurd / sort of Edelgard.

The 2nd statement "non-DLC" is basically if the person asked "what would a non-DLC tier list look like instead of the one presented." The answer would likely be - I don't think a ton changes.

14 hours ago, samthedigital said:

You'll want to read the spoiler in the link he provided for details on how he evaluates characters. There's also a link there to Vykan's tier list FAQ which further explains things.

The tl;dr is that every unit is ranked based on how valuable they are for clearing the game quickly and reliably (using turn counts as a metric, but favoring reliability over pure LTC when applicable), so units like Vander get a bump up even though he doesn't scale very well into the endgame while a unit like Anna takes a lot of time to get going, so she's not a good unit.

It might be worth clarifying if RNG abuse (I'm thinking about bond rings in particular) and the rewind mechanic are factored in at all though. I'm not sure if they would impact rankings a whole lot, but they do have an effect on what constitutes as reliable.

 

They wouldn't really impact rankings a ton. Rewind is just part of the game you might as well use it.

A lot of people would probably assume Bond Rings as is for stuff like Citrenne, so I just kind of kept it there. That said, you are right that it probably should be clarified.

12 hours ago, Speedy said:

I'm wating for my tier list after I finish maddening, but I already disagree with placement of Jean, Anna and Vander. 😄 There is definetly more, but these are the most obvious ones.

Anna and Jean are terrible in efficiency and LTC. I don't think I really need to evaluate how one of them can go as far as costing a turn and a Rewarp use just to be recruited. Jean is like a little less offensive, but he's not good.

I detailed a lot about Vander in Reddit, but I'll post it here:

"

- Vander is B because in terms of efficiency he saves a crapload of turns throughout the earlygame chapters. He is one of your best units and is one of the better Engage Ring options because of his bases.

Obviously when the game gets going further, Vander will fall off like any other Jeigan. I think that Vander does contribute a ton early on and saves quite a few turns in the process. Being a promoted unit and having 6 Mov (also being Cavalry) makes him the best Sigurd candidate in Chapter 4, and he's one of the better users of Marth Engage Ring in Chapter 5."

"...If you look at the amount of turns that Vander can save with some Emblem Rings, it's actually quite a bit. I peeked Chapter 10 and Verve used Vander with Sigurd even on that run as a Wyvern Knight, and I know that in Chapter 6 you can use Vander quite a bit. Same with Chapter 7. The thing is Vander has slightly better raw combat stats than most units (save Louis, but Louis has less Movement even with Sigurd). I at least have physical proof on that Chapter 4 and 5 that Vander is useful in a multitude of scenarios, and I know other LTCers on YouTube do as well.

https://youtu.be/gD5wRq58YEc

https://youtu.be/UCpQQPqY37I

https://youtu.be/QRvSRCIuyTQ

I told people I want to wait for Chrom and Veronica to continue so that's why this has not been done in a little while. But as you can see in the videos, it is hard to replicate what Vander can do even with DLC available.

In Chapter 4, Vander is one of the few units who can reach roughly that far while being able to survive / clear what is necessary. I don't remember if Alfred can do this, but he's still a significant reason this map is very easy to clear so quickly.

In Chapter 5, one of the strats some LTCers have done is use Marth on Vander to help with getting through Nealucci's health bar and killing the Ridersbane Armor Knight. He also has Hand Axe to chip at the door and is able to travel pretty far without Sigurd, which means it can be used on Louis instead for luring. The chip damage that he provides against Nealucci is important in both strats - and the one strat that had the double evade has a few cleaner options that I didn't recognize. Even then, Vander alone is doing quite a bit of work here.

Vander's contributions from 1-10 mostly are very positive, and cuts a lot of turns in the long run. Vander does have an expiration, but like many Jeigans he can last a lot longer than people credit him for. He's still a good enough Jeigan to hold down the fort for a while. Furthermore, if I were to drop Vander I would also be inclined to drop Louis. Louis has roughly the same departure time as Vander, is available for a smaller amount of time, and while you can argue that you can continue using him - mostly the question is why bother?"

12 hours ago, Scaramuccia said:

I don't see that huge difference between Chloe and Lapis if you value units on their own. Yes Chloe comes earlier, but by around ch 10 they could be built very similar and work in a very similar role. I could understand a rank or two difference, but S vs C is confusing.

Also there is a strong argument for Etie - you probably want to run a dedicated archer as there are many many fliers in the game and she could be built as a reliable solution to enemy fliers problem.

Chloe comes earlier and can be used in some different variations of clears if you want to, and she's still the only flying unit which matters for a few specific chapters such as Lapis's join chapter, of which Lapis is doing squat in. XS has mostly been using Chloe with a bunch fed into her and she's basically outscaling everything. Chloe being around earlier means she can make use of the resources sooner too to help her climb some levels. I basically looked at most of Lapis's stuff and she just doesn't do anything relevant in LTC and her contributions in efficiency are a bit more middling too. 

At absolute worst Chloe would probably be A before Lapis would be B.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Colonel M

[samthedigital]

The only thing that seems off to me is Bunet. I don't know if his combat will ever be useful, but I'd imagine that he can do some random repositioning/staff/whatever utility throughout the game because he's promoted and starts with 1200SP. I can't imagine the rest of the units in the tier being able to do nearly as much without work and time spent self improving.

[Colonel M]

22 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The only thing that seems off to me is Bunet. I don't know if his combat will ever be useful, but I'd imagine that he can do some random repositioning/staff/whatever utility throughout the game because he's promoted and starts with 1200SP. I can't imagine the rest of the units in the tier being able to do nearly as much without work and time spent self improving.

For sure. Bunet definitely is a unit I kind of want to look at more, but honestly his utility is fairly limited from what I can tell right now.

I think if Reposition was a bit more expensive I'd definitely sell off that he has a fair amount of SP, but Reposition is 200 SP as is. Dual Assist requires a reclass, and he's not getting anything with Speed+. He might actually improve a little bit with Hector on the table, though. There is also Geosphere, which he can inherent. Him being promoted is definitely a plus - it means he can do it over units like Etie / Boucheron who have to be promoted, though Etie makes Chapter 3 and Chapter 7 a little easier.

I'll keep him on the radar for now. KrashBoomBang wanted Bunet higher too, but I felt kind of a bit too indifferent to really raise him and wanted to see if there were a few things I could spin with from the DLC side that might put him up. In vanilla, he's probably High D / low C.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Colonel M

[Dark Holy Elf]

Honestly I think this list looks pretty great. There is of course the odd thing here and there that I'm not 100% certain I'd agree with but really nothing major at all, which is impressive.

46 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The only thing that seems off to me is Bunet. I don't know if his combat will ever be useful, but I'd imagine that he can do some random repositioning/staff/whatever utility throughout the game because he's promoted and starts with 1200SP.

I feel like Bunet is the worst unit in the game, honestly (setting aside the paralogue characters entirely for the moment). At the very least he's very close. You get him right when you get a bunch of PCs who are also promoted with 1000+ SP and have stats that are not only better, but in most cases much better. Realistically he's never getting deployed. There's nothing he can do that other can't do. Other PCs towards the low end of the list at least contribute in early chapters before getting benched, like Etie one-shots fliers on her joining map and Clanne has perfectly serviceable filler combat for a few maps.

True base stats of the midgame-joining PCs which highlight nicely how bad Bunet is:.

[samthedigital]

13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I feel like Bunet is the worst unit in the game, honestly (setting aside the paralogue characters entirely for the moment). At the very least he's very close. You get him right when you get a bunch of PCs who are also promoted with 1000+ SP and have stats that are not only better, but in most cases much better. Realistically he's never getting deployed. There's nothing he can do that other can't do. Other PCs towards the low end of the list at least contribute in early chapters before getting benched, like Etie one-shots fliers on her joining map and Clanne has perfectly serviceable filler combat for a few maps.

The idea is that he can provide some combat utility early on and use his promoted status and SP to some tangible benefit; it might also help so that we don't waste it on more important units especially. Even if it's just using a staff and cantering if he's swapping classes, using reposition, providing some temporary combat etc; he can do it. The other units on that table you showed are better to be clear, but the question is whether they do a lot more than him if/when we're not using them as long term units when he's in consideration for deployment.

The real comparison is between a unit like Etie or Clanne though. You're right; they can do things early on like weaken an enemy or kill an enemy here and there, but I would imagine that Bunet can see more utility than that provided he gets fielded over the course of a run. He has had a few small roles in some LTCs by the way; it's just that you can't expect him to remain relevant for combat in the long term or to do the most important task on any given map.

[Dark Holy Elf]

37 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Even if it's just using a staff and cantering if he's swapping classes, using reposition, providing some temporary combat etc; he can do it.

Cantering and staff use are things he can't do until the emblems start rejoining (unless Soren changes the latter? Not sure how the DLC emblems work). Otherwise... he's presumably not getting used in Chapter 13 since that has very small deployment. Chapter 14 has 12, that's his best bet. But even then, you have Alear forced, and Ivy, Kagetsu, Zelkov, Fogado, Pandreo, Merrin, Timerra, and Panette all have 1000+ SP and access to relevant promoted classes, along with better combat. That's nine deployment slots already. And then after 14 you get Hortensia and Seadall.

I suppose if you really just want a 6-move Reposition bot who doesn't need a Master Seal or Second Seal to have said move, that's fair. He's one of the best for that. (Vander and Merrin are the only other PCs who have 6 move without a seal until Rosado, and Vander has fallen off by now of course.) I just think that niche is pretty comparable to the marginal contributions of the early joiners. It's possible that an LTC might place more value on this, though: LTCs often have very specific constraints.

[samthedigital]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Cantering and staff use are things he can't do until the emblems start rejoining (unless Soren changes the latter? Not sure how the DLC emblems work). Otherwise... he's presumably not getting used in Chapter 13 since that has very small deployment.

The LTC that I referred to used him in chapters 13 and chapter 17 from what I remember, but to be fair he didn't snowball Chloe and wasn't doing paralogues as far as I know, so he would have likely have had less of a reason to reappear otherwise.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But even then, you have Alear forced, and Ivy, Kagetsu, Zelkov, Fogado, Pandreo, Merrin, Timerra, and Panette all have 1000+ SP and access to relevant promoted classes, along with better combat. That's nine deployment slots already. And then after 14 you get Hortensia and Seadall.

Quote

It's possible that an LTC might place more value on this, though: LTCs often have very specific constraints.

Zelkov starts at 17, so he has to wait a bit before reclassing, and Timerra needs at least a Master Seal to promote. I don't remember if she needs a Second Seal to pick her second class or not, but anyway... If he has to be strictly better than those units to actually be deployed and we're evaluating his contributions with absolute best play then maybe I would agree with a D tier placement more strongly, but as far as I know that's not the case; if it's best for him to never be deployed then he would belong in E tier in that situation. I'm not arguing for the dude to go in like B tier or anything like that either, so comparing him to most of those units is a losing battle anyway.

Edited March 5, 2023 by samthedigital

[Colonel M]

In fairness I don't even know if a unit like Zelkov is really a B Tier unit. It's hard to really determine that at the moment, but I think he's probably C like Yunaka. It's just his "wait out" is a bit shorter than Yunaka's (as in there is a potential future), but Dagger proficiencies are kind of a mixed bag.

As far as Staves - If you go that route, Soren does give Staff proficiency... at Level 12. Still, I think the big benefit with Bunet is that he's an automatic 6 Mov unit with Reposition after Chapter 13 (Drag Back in Chapter 13 with Eliwood gacha ring). I'd say the issue is Etie does also help a bit in Chapter 3 and Chapter 7 with how she is. Alfred also is useful in Chapter 5, and units like Boucheron are mildly useful in 3 and can be helpful in 5 (he can lure a Mage and survive if he busts the door open). Still, in the end I think Bunet would win those comparisons. Barely, but I think he'd win it. I know Alfred had some mild use too just because he's a Cav and he can actually survive a few things. Think the issue is I don't know if I'd put Alfred in the same tier as Celine. Celine I originally had at B, but I sort of backed away from it and put her in C for safety's sake.

[samthedigital]

29 minutes ago, Colonel M said:

In fairness I don't even know if a unit like Zelkov is really a B Tier unit. It's hard to really determine that at the moment, but I think he's probably C like Yunaka. It's just his "wait out" is a bit shorter than Yunaka's (as in there is a potential future), but Dagger proficiencies are kind of a mixed bag.

How did you build Yunaka in your playthrough? If I remember correctly you've been using her in your latest one.

Edited March 5, 2023 by samthedigital

[Colonel M]

34 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

How did you build Yunaka in your playthrough? If I remember correctly you've been using her in your latest one.

Sniper.

She was uh...

Something.

And honestly in efficiency play this would never fly.

The only thing that really made this good in the end was Draconic Hex and Astra Storm give the best of both worlds on what you want, and having access to Covert makes her range a lot better. Mulagir in Endgame obviously helps too. I didn't really try thinking of ways to skip chapters until I got Micaiah back, but a lot of that was fear of a blind playthrough. Even today, I barely beat Endgame in 3 turns. Which isn't bad, honestly, but you get where I'm coming from. Speedtaker is a funny skill though in slower play. I think I gave her Speedwing and boy was she bad. I did have a real deadweight here and there though, but for blind they did what I needed them to do at least. Poor Celine. She just scales terribly.

Trust me when I say that I love Yunaka as a character, but I know in the efficiency world this stuff would never fly. To show how kind of slow I was - Kagetsu promoted because he hit a Level cap.

For Zelkov - I think he would try to be a shadow of Kagetsu, which alone is a big problem because he doesn't have Sword proficiency (though him missing stuff like Georgios is whatever). I'll have to see how EXP goes midgame, but XS and I have been talking and it does not sound very good so far in a very extreme vacuum for LTC at least. For efficiency play, he's probably fine and that's why I still want to explore Warpskip-less later on.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Colonel M

[Speedy]

Oh I see I missed the sentence, where you consider LTC criteria for maddening tier list. I'm not fan of LTC and don't necessary think it's the best indicator if unit is maddening viable.

[Colonel M]

Anyway, after thinking more on Bunet, I'm probably okay with bumping him up to C. The question is if I bump Alfred up to C as well.

Perks:

- Mounted makes him useful earlygame regardless of circumstance.

- He's durable - not quite Louis or Vander built, but he'll soak a hit here and there.

- He's at least got 1-2 range, which Etie / Alear don't have.

Cons:

- No real potential outside of those circumstances.

- The maps he contributes in they are still small contributions.

- Etie also contributes in some of these maps, like 3, but trades 5 for 7 and maybe 8? She also has pretty strong 2 range with Steel Bow.

Basically it's about figuring if Alfred's contributions are a tier better than Etie and co, and I think the answer is "no" but I could see someone persuade me that it is.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Colonel M

[Skyteppelin]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:02 PM, Colonel M said:

 

Chloe comes earlier and can be used in some different variations of clears if you want to, and she's still the only flying unit which matters for a few specific chapters such as Lapis's join chapter, of which Lapis is doing squat in. XS has mostly been using Chloe with a bunch fed into her and she's basically outscaling everything. Chloe being around earlier means she can make use of the resources sooner too to help her climb some levels. I basically looked at most of Lapis's stuff and she just doesn't do anything relevant in LTC and her contributions in efficiency are a bit more middling too. 

At absolute worst Chloe would probably be A before Lapis would be B.

This seems to me like a weird way to look at it, Casue if Lapis was given the same preference you give Chloe she would do just as well if not better. Like  I def agree that cause Chloe is around longer with DLC she can be off more use. But then it seems so weird that kagetsu would basically fall under the same reasoning would be way higher and even above Chloe. In this case it seems really like weird difference to draw as the point after Lapis joins she can effectively be a second Chloe if you wanted her to. Not to mention other things she would share over katgestu like getting access to all the DLC maps whenever you want to do them which just pushs any EP unit into the god tier. I say as someone who is doing a DLC run myself and doing the DLC maps right after you get them or roy (I prefer roy cause I think it  makes them easier but that's just me) like totally blows the game in half and if lapis can basically be a chloe in that situation I don't see a wolrd where she can be that much lower.     

[DaveCozy]

Wow, this list is super similar to mine honestly, not much to argue from me in an efficiency / LTC context.

I do have a few nitpicks, but overall, super solid list in general.

Ivy S -> A; the more I use Ivy, the less I'm impressed by her honestly. She is prone to randomly blowing up to enemy crits, due to her low Dodge, and her speed is pretty suspect without help. None of these things are impossible to fix, and mind you she's still incredibly useful as a flying mage / staff user too. But I feel she is more A than S due to these issues.

Louis B -> A; I think Louis is pretty underrated as a unit, supposedly because he falls off, but I hardly find that to be true myself. Tanking falls off indeed, but Louis himself has a lot of raw strength to pull out OHKOs with a refined Silver Greatlance (as an e.g.) and enemy phase with that. Alternatively he has good enough stats to also pull off a Vantage & Wrath build, much like Panette minus the personal. Also an easy fit into Halberdier for just pure player phase with a Brave Lance and Pincer Attack. He is a good unit through and through, I think his transition to another role is a bit slept on, and I feel he's a solid A tier myself.

Fogado B -> A; he is the least commitment user of Radiant Bow, outside Mauvier, but he's also available sooner. Fogado's unique class also gives him really good speed, on top of his already good personal speed stat too, which makes him a solid Eirika Brave Bow user too for late-game. I'd say he's solidly A tier, if anything his bad bulk and having useless skills holds him back somewhat, but he player-phases well enough for me to forgive that.

Goldmary C -> B; one thing I like about her is very low comitment access to Brave Assist, only needing 2 levels. Same with 1800 SP being just 2 levels away with an emblem to get Dual Assist+ from Lucina. Granted, you still deal with 80% accuracy of chain attacks and activation of Dual Assists, but that's not a unique issue to her. Any unit can be a chain attack bot, true, but only Goldmary has that little investment to pull it off. She's also pretty solid in other classes, Great Knight and Halberdier (with Eirika for the latter) coming to mind, so it's not her only option either. I say B.

Timerra C -> D; I don't get the hype with her. Sandstorm is really good, if it activates. Key phrase being, if it activates. Outside Sandstorm, her damage is very underwhelming. While her unique class is a ball of stats, she's still foot locked with only Lances as a weapon choice, and I don't feel it's enough to really justify raising her. Outside of Picket, her stats just plummet, and it's a sad thing to look at... say Hero Timerra vs Hero Goldmary. I would actually argue that Alfred is a better unit than she is, I say D.

I could also argue for Celine to B, and probably Lapis to B as well, but I feel like I'm really nitpicking at that point, and I don't feel strongly enough to argue beyond that.

Solid list and thanks for sharing!

Edited March 7, 2023 by DaveCozy
Removed excess spacing

[Viberum]

I agree! Ivy’s low dex and low luck makes her prone to missing alot / getting crit so engraving patch that is absolutely required. 

I also feel Eirika’s skillset really makes Fogado shine.

Timerra’s lack of str+bld, middling spd+def is very annoying i could never deal a ton of dmg on her unless she procs sandstorm. In the end I only used her for the dual assist I had her inherit(which I guess is not a good skill on her)

[Colonel M]

23 hours ago, Skyteppelin said:

This seems to me like a weird way to look at it, Casue if Lapis was given the same preference you give Chloe she would do just as well if not better. Like  I def agree that cause Chloe is around longer with DLC she can be off more use. But then it seems so weird that kagetsu would basically fall under the same reasoning would be way higher and even above Chloe. In this case it seems really like weird difference to draw as the point after Lapis joins she can effectively be a second Chloe if you wanted her to. Not to mention other things she would share over katgestu like getting access to all the DLC maps whenever you want to do them which just pushs any EP unit into the god tier. I say as someone who is doing a DLC run myself and doing the DLC maps right after you get them or roy (I prefer roy cause I think it  makes them easier but that's just me) like totally blows the game in half and if lapis can basically be a chloe in that situation I don't see a wolrd where she can be that much lower.     

Have to look at Chapter 7, but I think the issue is that Lapis doesn't really do anything extra in her initial jointime that Chloe isn't.

- Chapter 7 Lapis is likely doing squat.

- XS had a 1 turn with Chloe, though that was with Boots. It's basically a question of how practical it is to get her to Level 10 without screwing Alear.

- One of Lapis's small advantages, other than her Str lead, that I found was that she has access to Georgios later in the game, but I think her Str stat will lack far too much and Kagetsu sort of has that reign better.

The one thing I'll say is I might be more open to dropping Chloe to A or maybe raising Lapis to B, but I think I need to see more of the environment before I go all the way with it. I'll mostly keep tabs on it because Zelkov is another unit I have to keep a tab on.

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Wow, this list is super similar to mine honestly, not much to argue from me in an efficiency / LTC context.

I do have a few nitpicks, but overall, super solid list in general.

Ivy S -> A; the more I use Ivy, the less I'm impressed by her honestly. She is prone to randomly blowing up to enemy crits, due to her low Dodge, and her speed is pretty suspect without help. None of these things are impossible to fix, and mind you she's still incredibly useful as a flying mage / staff user too. But I feel she is more A than S due to these issues.

Louis B -> A; I think Louis is pretty underrated as a unit, supposedly because he falls off, but I hardly find that to be true myself. Tanking falls off indeed, but Louis himself has a lot of raw strength to pull out OHKOs with a refined Silver Greatlance (as an e.g.) and enemy phase with that. Alternatively he has good enough stats to also pull off a Vantage & Wrath build, much like Panette minus the personal. Also an easy fit into Halberdier for just pure player phase with a Brave Lance and Pincer Attack. He is a good unit through and through, I think his transition to another role is a bit slept on, and I feel he's a solid A tier myself.

Fogado B -> A; he is the least commitment user of Radiant Bow, outside Mauvier, but he's also available sooner. Fogado's unique class also gives him really good speed, on top of his already good personal speed stat too, which makes him a solid Eirika Brave Bow user too for late-game. I'd say he's solidly A tier, if anything his bad bulk and having useless skills holds him back somewhat, but he player-phases well enough for me to forgive that.

Goldmary C -> B; one thing I like about her is very low comitment access to Brave Assist, only needing 2 levels. Same with 1800 SP being just 2 levels away with an emblem to get Dual Assist+ from Lucina. Granted, you still deal with 80% accuracy of chain attacks and activation of Dual Assists, but that's not a unique issue to her. Any unit can be a chain attack bot, true, but only Goldmary has that little investment to pull it off. She's also pretty solid in other classes, Great Knight and Halberdier (with Eirika for the latter) coming to mind, so it's not her only option either. I say B.

Timerra C -> D; I don't get the hype with her. Sandstorm is really good, if it activates. Key phrase being, if it activates. Outside Sandstorm, her damage is very underwhelming. While her unique class is a ball of stats, she's still foot locked with only Lances as a weapon choice, and I don't feel it's enough to really justify raising her. Outside of Picket, her stats just plummet, and it's a sad thing to look at... say Hero Timerra vs Hero Goldmary. I would actually argue that Alfred is a better unit than she is, I say D.

I could also argue for Celine to B, and probably Lapis to B as well, but I feel like I'm really nitpicking at that point, and I don't feel strongly enough to argue beyond that.

Solid list and thanks for sharing!

I'll just break it down via bolding.

Ivy I think is the easier unit to fix, sometimes the easiest. The thing is that she's mostly a low investment unit with still a lot helping her keep up with Staves and Magic. She can Dire Thunder if you want, she's a great user of Lucina and Lyn - the former because she flies, the latter because Lyn patches one of her weaker stats, she can transition to Celica later on. I do kind of get what you mean because she can sort of rollercoaster along the way more than say Kagetsu can, but I think she just has way too many positives to drop down.

Fogado I think is one I want to see if he can sort of get around. Cupido is still pretty good for a class just because the bases are just good enough, and Bow access is still powerful. I think Fogado's problem is no one really uses him a lot long-term or he needs a few extra things to patch him up. I know Warrior was good for a while, but I wouldn't do Warrior again because you can just do Cupido for Bow shenanigans.

Goldmary is a weird one. Goldmary and Rosado were like the two I had a hard time ranking because Goldmary has better defensive bases, but Rosado is slightly ahead offensively (but it is very miniscule, mind). I'm a little leery on her initial class too - Lance proficiency is nice and you could swap to Wyvern without a lot of issues, but Hero just has the Movement problem that I think will just sink her if she stays Hero. If she was better at bosskilling like Panette it might be a little easier to excuse.

Timmera is just there because she's a midgame "growth" unit and that's it. I didn't put her in D because I saw that her Wyvern stats are pretty salvageable. To compare - she's about equal in terms of stats to a 10/6 Chloe (and Lapis):

Chloe - HP 37.95 | Str 15.65 | Mag 6.35 | Dex 18.50 | Spd 18.60 | Def 11.70 | Res 9.90 | Lck 12.90 | Bld 7.70

Lapis - HP 34.75 | Str 17.25 | Mag 4.00 | Dex 15.25 | Spd 18.00 | Def 12.75 | Res 10.75 | Lck 9.50 | Bld 6.50

Timmera - HP 36 | Str 15 | Mag 6 | Dex 20 | Spd 20 | Def 14 | Res 12 | Lck 10 | Bld 7

Celine I'm kind of just torn on. She's probably B by contributions, but they feel more limited than Vander and even Louis.

Louis's problem is more he needs a Master Seal to be like... somewhat better Bunet? I know that sounds really weird but to compare a 10/1 Louis performs worse short-term vs Bunet, and Louis has to sort of fight around for Second / Master Seals. Kind of reluctant to put him A overall.

===

Long story short I'd consider Lapis up maybe and Fogado / Goldmary as very soft "maybes".

Read the above message but mostly seemed to go further on Timmera / Ivy / Fogado which I read and did take into consideration. Mostly just wanted to acknowledge it since I didn't quote it.

Also after some debating with myself and kind of looking at some comparisons with others, I think I'm raising Bunet to C. I'll update that later.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Colonel M

[DaveCozy]

Hmm, I'll have to give Timerra a fairer shake next time in Maddening. Most likely I just didn't notice because my Chloe had 20 strength by the time Timerra joined.  To be fair though, Chloe consumed both energy drops pre-Kagetsu (Jean's paralogue, and ch10's drop from Goldmary), so I did clearly invest in her and didn't see the point in putting any work on Timerra.

Louis at IL 10/1 in ch12 seems really low, even for Maddening and efficiency contexts. Is it really fair to compare him at that level to Bunet?

Even in non-DLC efficiency contexts, Louis has 9 chapters + 2 paralogues from his join map, which he joins at level 6 Lance Armor. Even if say 7, 8 and 9 can be skipped or done in ~3 turns with smart boss baits, 4 levels over the course of 11 maps still seems pretty low to me.

This might also be me having a bias though, because I did not invest in neither Citrinne nor Amber in that playthrough. It's possible I just didn't notice the competition for seals with him.

EDIT: btw, I also endgamed Louis into a Halberdier in that run, in case you're curious. Halberdier having Pincer Attack, and engaged with Eirika, means you don't even need speed to quad enemies and ORKO them. You just need to stack enough true damage (25 per hit vs the final boss). Louis in particular fits great in the class because at most what you need is enough bulk to survive a counterattack, which he has. I'm particularly fond of running 1 Eirika!Halberdier for endgame maps myself (around chapter 23) as it's a class that just doesn't depend on offensive stats at all to ORKO bosses.

Edited March 9, 2023 by DaveCozy
Halb edit

[Colonel M]

16 minutes ago, DaveCozy said:

Hmm, I'll have to give Timerra a fairer shake next time in Maddening. Most likely I just didn't notice because my Chloe had 20 strength by the time Timerra joined.  To be fair though, Chloe consumed both energy drops pre-Kagetsu (Jean's paralogue, and ch10's drop from Goldmary), so I did clearly invest in her and didn't see the point in putting any work on Timerra.

Louis at IL 10/1 in ch12 seems really low, even for Maddening and efficiency contexts. Is it really fair to compare him at that level to Bunet?

Even in non-DLC efficiency contexts, Louis has 9 chapters + 2 paralogues from his join map, which he joins at level 6 Lance Armor. Even if say 7, 8 and 9 can be skipped or done in ~3 turns with smart boss baits, 4 levels over the course of 11 maps still seems pretty low to me.

This might also be me having a bias though, because I did not invest in neither Citrinne nor Amber in that playthrough. It's possible I just didn't notice the competition for seals with him.

It's just more sometimes Sigurd has to (or can go to) other areas which can affect how he approaches things. I was just using 10/1 as an example and not much else. With a few levels on Louis they're still a little more comparable in base stats than you'd think. The issue is if even Bunet isn't really using a lot later on, it's hard for Louis to keep up. I just don't think it's good to use him later on because enemy phasing is kind of a touch-and-go situation and, especially in LTC, it's sometimes useful but not always.

I'll keep an eye on it because it's not impossible for him to reach higher.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Colonel M

[Skyteppelin]

2 hours ago, Colonel M said:

Have to look at Chapter 7, but I think the issue is that Lapis doesn't really do anything extra in her initial jointime that Chloe isn't.

- Chapter 7 Lapis is likely doing squat.

- XS had a 1 turn with Chloe, though that was with Boots. It's basically a question of how practical it is to get her to Level 10 without screwing Alear.

- One of Lapis's small advantages, other than her Str lead, that I found was that she has access to Georgios later in the game, but I think her Str stat will lack far too much and Kagetsu sort of has that reign better.

The one thing I'll say is I might be more open to dropping Chloe to A or maybe raising Lapis to B, but I think I need to see more of the environment before I go all the way with it. I'll mostly keep tabs on it because Zelkov is another unit I have to keep a tab on.

I agree that like when you compare them directly with DLC then Chloe is better even if imo its really just cause she gets the favoritism for all the stat boosters you have at this point. But the part that I'm a little lost on is how this makes Lapis worse? In a bubble sure if put them against each other then Chloe would come out on top but Lapis is the same as Chloe if you gave her the same treatment even if its just giving her the energy drop you get from chapter 10 or Para 1. Which would make Lapis just as good as her and they can even make benefits or different emblems so its not like they are eating into each other in that regard.

Lapis has a mediocre join chapter although I wouldn't call her useless cause she kills things and does good vs all 3 boss enemy. 

Idk what XS is.

She will be behind Kagetsu in Str although its not really all that big a difference even if there is one. Although once again factoring in DLC maps its stupid how much farther ahead you can get anyone that has access to tiki right away.