Does Fire Emblem Nostalgia get Toxic?

[DarkSage861]

A little bit ago I found a very interesting video called "When Nostalgia gets toxic" by J Reviews. The points he provided included how very idiotic, pointless and very hurtful nostalgia can get when it comes to franchises, when I watched I thought that (not all) Fire Embpem fans are very very VERY guilty of this too. One of the things I noticed back lets say the 3DS era was the countless "back in my day" arguements about game difficulty, waifu stuff or stories, etc or will say shit like "if you haven't played Tharica, Tellius or FE7, you're not a real fan" and it seems like that stupid mentality is still very much around

 

Things like these were very frustrating during that time so of course when Echoes came out, people really felt like the "golden age" of FE came back...only for people to forget about it. Tbh I really didnt like Echoes and I used to get a lot of flack for saying that and get labeled as a "new fan casual waifu lover" even though I played the GBA games, Tellius and even Shadow Dragon before that. 

 

On the topic of old games, it's also weird how FE fans love to switch up a lot. Radiant Dawn back then wad considered the worst FE game ever but it's now deems as the best and other games should take note of it. It's a never ending cycle, that's not to say newer stufd is safe too i think 3H fans get really defensive when people don't like the game and while I never played it (I stopped consuming FE media after Echoes) I just decided to not stick around for anything new because it's not worth it. 

 

It's easy for me to complain about how the old age of FE is so grand and golden when in reality I can just not buy the new stuff, which is what I did. FE fans will talk about how Camilla needs to stop showing up in FE spinoffs but will continue to buy the games anyway. 

Nostalgia is great for rediscovering things but it can also be a curse for people to the point where hiveminds are created. 

 

But enough of my thoughts, what do you guys think? Here's the video in question 

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I remember people saying "If you didn't play FE5, what are you even doing posting here?". The context? A FE5 Tier list thread. I think they had a point to be tbh.

Yeah, gatekeeping is not cool. But it's not unique to this or any fandom. Fire Emblem's old. It's many generations of fans by this point. And a lot of the folks that stuck around this long can be as insufferable as the newbies. Like goddamn, have you people ever heard the word "sorry" before? I don't really attribute that behavior to Fire Emblem or nostalgia though. Just general close minded-ness that can happen anywhere, anytime. 

Life's too short to be getting upset over a video game. When Engage came out looking like Engage, I decided that 60 hours/60 dollars ought to be spent elsewhere. I did something I said I never thought I'd do six months ago. I played FE3. The least appealing Fire Emblem game by my estimate. And yeah it's the odd one out among the Kaga Five by lacking in heart and making nearly no effort to re-invent itself. Kind of a disrespectful "demake" of FE1 too if you ask me. But man, the feeling of dragging and dropping units. This rules. Better than other SRPGs I've played for sure. I think FE is gonna be okay. And if not, the games we love are still here. Because Video games are forever.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Safy]

I see toxicity the other way around too, like you're called an "elitist" and unwanted around the hoods if you say you like series staples such as permadeath or weapon durability. Or if you genuinely enjoy chilling with the laid-back pace of Genealogy's maps.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'd say the toxicity is all around, and for understandable reasons. It really is a zero-sum game, and one person getting what they want does delay or prevent someone else from getting what they want. The resources spent on a remake could have been put to a new game. A new game in the new style could have been done in a more traditional style. Three Hopes quite literally replaced a game that started as Fire Emblem Warriors 2.

 

I think, as ever, that there is a balance to be struck, and I don't think it's impossible to please both crowds. Dating sim mechanics have a place, but engaging with them should be totally optional, and easy to avoid. We can have a more serious story AND good map design, and it's unfortunate that we haven't been getting both. We can have spinoffs that respect all eras of FE, and we don't need nostalgia baiting in future mainline games. An artstyle can be colorful, majestic, and possible to take seriously all at once - you don't have to turn FE into a literal clownshoes farce just to add some color.

[Samz707]

5 hours ago, Safy said:

I see toxicity the other way around too, like you're called an "elitist" and unwanted around the hoods if you say you like series staples such as permadeath or weapon durability. Or if you genuinely enjoy chilling with the laid-back pace of Genealogy's maps.

I have definitely seen this with the Tomb Raider fandom.

If you don't like the new games, you are by default biased and nostalgia blinded.

[Fabulously Olivier]

58 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

If you don't like the new games, you are by default biased and nostalgia blinded.

I see this prevailing attitude a lot, and it is more toxic than almost anything the nostagic side of any fanbase can possibly throw out.

Almost anything, anyway. The nostalgia side of the Star Wars/Marvel/Disney discourse is beyond poisoned.

[Skyteppelin]

Its def a problem but Iv seen it go both ways sadly, As someone who loves smash melee its really annoying to be called all manner of things just cause I enjoy a older game more. But yes normally its people hating on newer stuff, Like trails from mister olivier here

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Skyteppelin said:

Like trails from mister olivier here

Mmm, well, Trails honestly has as big of an old/new split as Fire Emblem does. Maybe moreso. Much like Fire Emblem, I enjoy both eras well enough, prefer the old, and mourn that improvements to gameplay came at a significant cost to writing quality.

 

(Absolutely cannot wait for the localization of the new arc with Kuro no Kiseki though. The new combat system looks great, and I like the new cast based on first impressions).

[Skyteppelin]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Mmm, well, Trails honestly has as big of an old/new split as Fire Emblem does. Maybe moreso. Much like Fire Emblem, I enjoy both eras well enough, prefer the old, and mourn that improvements to gameplay came at a significant cost to writing quality.

 

(Absolutely cannot wait for the localization of the new arc with Kuro no Kiseki though. The new combat system looks great, and I like the new cast based on first impressions).

It does have a bigger old new spilt yea, I get to view it from a interesting perspective cause I started from the beginning but like Cs3 and 4 the most. (Kuro is really good having played it myself)  

[Dark Holy Elf]

19 hours ago, DarkSage861 said:

A little bit ago I found a very interesting video called "When Nostalgia gets toxic" by J Reviews. The points he provided included how very idiotic, pointless and very hurtful nostalgia can get when it comes to franchises, when I watched I thought that (not all) Fire Embpem fans are very very VERY guilty of this too. One of the things I noticed back lets say the 3DS era was the countless "back in my day" arguements about game difficulty, waifu stuff or stories, etc or will say shit like "if you haven't played Tharica, Tellius or FE7, you're not a real fan" and it seems like that stupid mentality is still very much around

Fans can be pretty bad. "If you haven't played ___, you're not a real fan" is an awful thing to say. I like to think we're getting to the point where most of us recognize this and call people on it, but I'm sure it still exists uncontested in some fandom spaces (which at this point I've learned to avoid).

19 hours ago, DarkSage861 said:

Tbh I really didnt like Echoes and I used to get a lot of flack for saying that and get labeled as a "new fan casual waifu lover" even though I played the GBA games, Tellius and even Shadow Dragon before that. 

And then we started to see thing like CYL numbers and AO3 numbers and even the post counts for the respective forums on this very website and it became very clear that your opinion was actually the overwhelming majority one (at least in comparison to the other 3DS games), but I agree there was an attempt to discredit it.

There's nothing wrong with preferring certain games in the series; certainly Awakening and Fates have some tone differences which would give anyone a valid reason not to like them. But yes there's definitely some bad toxicity that came along with that; I certainly experienced some of it too despite loving GBA/Tellius. If the Fire Emblem fanbase could never use the word "waifu" again that'd be pretty awesome honestly... but that's probably a topic for another thread.

20 hours ago, DarkSage861 said:

On the topic of old games, it's also weird how FE fans love to switch up a lot. Radiant Dawn back then wad considered the worst FE game ever but it's now deems as the best and other games should take note of it.

I think it's important to recognize that the people who considered RD one of the worst then and the people who consider it one of the best now are largely not the same. Radiant Dawn always had a lot of fans, but it also had some loud detractors. It's interesting how different voices can be amplified at different times, though. I generally think we could do with amplifying the detracting voices less in general.

7 hours ago, Safy said:

I see toxicity the other way around too, like you're called an "elitist" and unwanted around the hoods if you say you like series staples such as permadeath or weapon durability.

So the thing about permadeath is that, anecdotally, it was a major obstacle for a lot of people getting into Fire Emblem; many people find it too stressful. The introduction of Casual Mode was an incredibly important step in building the big fanbase Fire Emblem has now. So I think that if you call for future games to get rid of casual mode (which I have seen, albeit rarely), then you're absolutely an elitist.

That said since it's such an easy option to choose or not as you desire, I would definitely say it's unreasonable if anyone calls others "elitists" just for personally choosing to play on Classic. In general nobody should be criticizing how other people choose to play one-player games. People do have the right to be concerned if elements of games they enjoyed disappear entirely, though.

[Yexin]

21 hours ago, DarkSage861 said:

"if you haven't played Tharica, Tellius or FE7, you're not a real fan"

the way i see it about these kinds of arguments is: take movies, major directors in particular, like Kubrick, Spielberg and the likes; if you go and tell some Kubrick fans (and you know they're Kubrick fans) that you've just watched The Shining, then you might expect them not to call you a "real Kubrick fan" if you've never watched 2001 A Space Odissey, A Clockwork Orange or Full Metal Jacket
i don't really know if your problem with this is people not accepting your "fan" lable about something, or just a principle thing, but in any case my opinion is that people in general should pick the people they decide to tell things more wisely

of course you shouldn't always expect other fans or "experts" to judge you, and i'm not saying they're right if they do: all i'm just saying is that it happens, in potentially any fandom, and if people care/feel personally attacked/hurt about it so much and they can't take such trivial and totally ignorable opinions (because that's what they are, opinions), then they should understand when and where to keep their mouths shut, or else be ready to engage in an absolutely pointless and time-consuming argument in case the worst happens (read as: some people just so happen to not be in agreement with you)

aside from that, yeah, nostalgia can be a beast, but i personally live with it by interpreting it as "past experiences that i appreciated and are very precious to me, that caused me to have certain tastes and opinions", tl;dr "i know what i like"
tastes and opinions can definitely change with time, and that's normal, but in general, as long as it doesn't actually cause you to not be able to live in the present, i don't think nostalgia is inherently a bad thing

Edited March 13, 2023 by Yexin

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

So the thing about permadeath is that, anecdotally, it was a major obstacle for a lot of people getting into Fire Emblem; many people find it too stressful. The introduction of Casual Mode was an incredibly important step in building the big fanbase Fire Emblem has now. So I think that if you call for future games to get rid of casual mode (which I have seen, albeit rarely), then you're absolutely an elitist.

That said since it's such an easy option to choose or not as you desire, I would definitely say it's unreasonable if anyone calls others "elitists" just for personally choosing to play on Classic. In general nobody should be criticizing how other people choose to play one-player games. People do have the right to be concerned if elements of games they enjoyed disappear entirely, though.

This right here. Why exclude this or that player? That was my response to the "Here's how permadeath ought to change" thread. Which was more accurately "Here's how I would remove permadeath, and also you're wrong for liking it". I agree that the Casual/Classic split is insufficient for most FE games, but I'd rather let the player curate their experience rather than having no choice at all like we did pre-2010. And along with Difficulty, let them adjust their choice in the middle of their playthrough. Nobody goes into a new fire emblem game knowing exactly which setting will best fit their preferred level of challenge - they haven't played the game yet after all. 

I envision three settings: Casual, Classic, Ironman. But alongside more settings to tweak other individual mechanics: reducing exp/gold gain, Amount of Turnwheel charges, tweaking Fatigue, stat growths. Then you can have the highest difficulty setting "Maddening Mode" with all of the toughest options locked in. So that when somebody says they're playing Maddening, everybody knows what settings are selected and can be sufficiently impressed. But beyond the most daring of challenge runners, there's so many more avenues to explore than Enemy Strength and an On/Off switch for permadeath. Fire Emblem has barely begun "appealing to broader audiences" 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Sunwoo]

Eh. Toxic people will always exist. In the FE fandom, sometimes they'll be fans of the older games. And other times they'll be fans of the newer games. No one group has a monopoly on being terrible.

Nostalgia is a weird drug, but it's fine as long as you acknowledge that your nostalgia makes you biased and not impartial to certain things.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Yexin said:

the way i see it about these kinds of arguments is: take movies, major directors in particular, like Kubrick, Spielberg and the likes; if you go and tell some Kubrick fans (and you know they're Kubrick fans) that you've just watched The Shining, then you might expect them not to call you a "real Kubrick fan" if you've never watched 2001 A Space Odissey, A Clockwork Orange or Full Metal Jacket

My feelings are basically the same there. If someone watched The Shining and thought it had the best direction of any movie they had ever seen, do they not have the right to call themselves a fan of the director? And yes, if someone has only played Three Houses but is hugely invested in it and has created art/fiction/merchandise for the community, do they not have the right to call themselves a Fire Emblem fan? If not, how many movies/games are needed? The way I see it, being a fan is a self-identified label. Nobody has the right to gatekeep that.

Instead of being jerks about who is or isn't a "true fan", fans who have played and enjoyed many games in the series (I'm one, hi) should focus on recognizing the positive feelings of fans who have only played a small number of games and encouraging them to play other games, or at least the ones we think they'd like. (It's also okay if some fans love some of the Fire Emblem games I love, but not all of them. I certainly have friends whom I would not recommend certain Fire Emblem games to based on knowing their interests, including Fire Emblem games I personally very much like.)

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

This right here. Why exclude this or that player? That was my response to the "Here's how permadeath ought to change" thread. Which was more accurately "Here's how I would remove permadeath, and also you're wrong for liking it". I agree that the Casual/Classic split is insufficient for most FE games, but I'd rather let the player curate their experience rather than having no choice at all like we did pre-2010. And along with Difficulty, let them adjust their choice in the middle of their playthrough. Nobody goes into a new fire emblem game knowing exactly which setting will best fit their preferred level of challenge - they haven't played the game yet after all. 

I envision three settings: Casual, Classic, Ironman. But alongside more settings to tweak other individual mechanics: reducing exp/gold gain, Amount of Turnwheel charges, tweaking Fatigue, stat growths. Then you can have the highest difficulty setting "Maddening Mode" with all of the toughest options locked in. So that when somebody says they're playing Maddening, everybody knows what settings are selected and can be sufficiently impressed. But beyond the most daring of challenge runners, there's so many more avenues to explore than Enemy Strength and an On/Off switch for permadeath. Fire Emblem has barely begun "appealing to broader audiences" 

Completely agree with all of this.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

But beyond the most daring of challenge runners, there's so many more avenues to explore than Enemy Strength and an On/Off switch for permadeath. Fire Emblem has barely begun "appealing to broader audiences" 

Dark Deity is a phenomenal example of what could be done for Fire Emblem. Imagine an FE game that allows you to turn on things like random recruitment order. It would exponentially increase replay value and open FE to the roguelike audience.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

There's toxicity everywhere, if you look for it. Old school FE fans can certainly be toxic in their nostalgia, just as new school FE fans can be. I don't think one group is any more or less toxic than the other, and then I don't think toxicity itself is prevalent throughout the FE community. Certainly not to the same enormous degree as other franchises, at least.

[Yexin]

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

My feelings are basically the same there. If someone watched The Shining and thought it had the best direction of any movie they had ever seen, do they not have the right to call themselves a fan of the director? And yes, if someone has only played Three Houses but is hugely invested in it and has created art/fiction/merchandise for the community, do they not have the right to call themselves a Fire Emblem fan? If not, how many movies/games are needed? The way I see it, being a fan is a self-identified label. Nobody has the right to gatekeep that.

Instead of being jerks about who is or isn't a "true fan", fans who have played and enjoyed many games in the series (I'm one, hi) should focus on recognizing the positive feelings of fans who have only played a small number of games and encouraging them to play other games, or at least the ones we think they'd like. (It's also okay if some fans love some of the Fire Emblem games I love, but not all of them. I certainly have friends whom I would not recommend certain Fire Emblem games to based on knowing their interests, including Fire Emblem games I personally very much like.)

the meaning of the word "fan" is an incredibly broad and dispersive (just like the term itself) topic from which no one can truly claim to come out as being right
the way i personally see it, what makes you a "fan" or "potential fan" of something bigger than a single production or piece of media is your attitude towards it:  if you liked 3H a lot and created art/fanfiction/merchandise to show your love for it, but you have no intention to go back and experience other FE games because you're content with just having played 3H, then my opinion on the matter is that you're not a FE fa, you're just a FE3H fan; similarly, if someone only watched and greatly enjoyed The Shining but isn't interested in experiencing other Kubrick movies is simply a fan of that specific movie, rather than of Kubrick in general
also, when you understand that you actually want to experience a franchise (for instance) as a whole, what allows you to bear the "real" fan label, is dedication

i had this doubt myself when i first watched Evangelion and The End of Evangelion in like 2 days: even though i really liked those works, i didn't really know if i would've called myself a "fan" of Evangelion, having only passed 2 days since i actually decided to get into the franchise, when probably there are people who watched it when it first aired in 1995, bought tons and tons of merchandise, DVDs, figures, manga and the likes
my conclusion is that i felt no need to label myself as a "fan", and let the passing of time decide it for me: now that i own a limited edition of the series and the movies (Rebuild aside), and 2 (yes, 2, but this is a story for another time and topic) different editions of the manga adaptation, in retrospective i think i can say i'm an Evangelion fan, because the way i express my appreciation for pieces of media, aside from talking about it with other fans or people who're trying to get into it themselves, is by spending money for its ... "physical memorabilia", i guess? i don't like Eva's figures, but i don't think i know how to express this with less words

Edited March 14, 2023 by Yexin

[Jotari]

No. Fire Emblem fans are perfect and I love you all. Never change.

[Safy]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:58 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

So the thing about permadeath is that, anecdotally, it was a major obstacle for a lot of people getting into Fire Emblem; many people find it too stressful. The introduction of Casual Mode was an incredibly important step in building the big fanbase Fire Emblem has now. So I think that if you call for future games to get rid of casual mode (which I have seen, albeit rarely), then you're absolutely an elitist.

That said since it's such an easy option to choose or not as you desire, I would definitely say it's unreasonable if anyone calls others "elitists" just for personally choosing to play on Classic. In general nobody should be criticizing how other people choose to play one-player games. People do have the right to be concerned if elements of games they enjoyed disappear entirely, though.

Casual mode is a good addition and having freedom with options is great in general. Hopefully the devs keep providing options for different kinds of players in the future as well. They could even introduce more customization to the current modes, like different sliders for how much more EXP the players would like to get so leveling different units is easier and more viable, or give us a real Ironman mode that players could toggle on in the options when starting a new file.