Leif should have been the first Staff Lord

[Jotari]

Leif should have had staves in his base Genealogy class and his promoted Thracia class. My reasons for saying this are many.

1. His class already has it! At least, the female version of it does. So why is Leif any different? Well the answer is that Jugdral had this slightly odd female association with staves (despite the most powerful staff going to Claude and his male heir). Not only does the female version of the prince class get staves, but so too do female paladins!

2.Its what he ends up doing anyway. Let's face it, despite getting all the weapons, Master Knight is a glorified Valkyrie. Sure, it can kill stuff, but you have holy weapons and other characters doing that already (and better). Master Knight's use is for that high move warp strats. So since this is ultimately his gameplay niche, let's have him get started earlier.

3. It mitigates the grind to Master Knight. Because staff use =  free exp.

4. His mom is Ethlyn, and he's already (narratively) coded to take after her while his sister takes after Quan. So might as well give him Ethlyn's main weapon type, which also should be good for his inheritance.

5.His promotion in Thracia is lame. Okay, it's cool from the perspective that it's the same as his base class in Genealogy and you get it at the same time the continuity links up, but visually and mechanically it's lame. Basically just a level reset. It needs something to spice it up and make promoting mean something. Him being sword locked as a lord in Thracia and then sword-staff as a prince in both Genealogy and Thracia would fix that without messing with the narrative realization of continuity (I'm sure I could have phrased that better).

6. It would make him top tier in Thracia. Because staves are god in Thracia. And what's more, because Leif doesn't suffer from stamina issues, he would be one of the best staff units in the game, provided you can get his rank up. And I don't think giving him the ability to use rewarp to seize castles would be any broken than it already is having another unit warp him.

7. He's a Trickster in Awakening. Which is a sword staff class with thief skills (which is cool since mugging people for their weapons is the main source of income in Thracia). That's not hugely relevant, but it does feel right to mention. Does it suggest they've seen the light and will make him a sword staff prince in a Thracia remake? No, course not. His promotion will be underwhelming again and then they'll sell us Master Knight as DLC to compensate (and we'll buy it like the addicts we are).

Edited March 26 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

4. His mom is Ethlyn, and he's already (narratively) coded to take after her while his sister takes after Quan. So might as well give him Ethlyn's main weapon type, which also should be good for his inheritance.

That's already a thing. Despite being able to use Staves, Ethlyn is still a child of Baldr's bloodline. Her main weapon type are Swords. That's why Dierdre gives her a Light Brand and not a staff, despite being what both women can wield. And said Light Brand is already Lief's inheritance, being his Prf in Thraccia... and Engage reinforces this by being his final Engage weapon.

53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

5.His promotion in Thracia is lame. Okay, it's cool from the perspective that it's the same as his base class in Genealogy and you get it at the same time the continuity links up, but visually and mechanically it's lame. Basically just a level reset. It needs something to spice it up and make promoting mean something. Him being sword locked as a lord in Thracia and then sword-staff as a prince in both Genealogy and Thracia would fix that without messing with the narrative realization of continuity (I'm sure I could have phrased that better).

I agree with this, but I disagree it should be staves. If anything, he should gain Lances upon promotion. That would reflect better he descends from both Baldr and Njörun, embracing both parts of his bloodline.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's already a thing. Despite being able to use Staves, Ethlyn is still a child of Baldr's bloodline. Her main weapon type are Swords. That's why Dierdre gives her a Light Brand and not a staff, despite being what both women can wield. And said Light Brand is already Lief's inheritance, being his Prf in Thraccia... and Engage reinforces this by being his final Engage weapon.

I meant mechanically his inheritance. Ethlyn can't pass down her staves to him, as parents can only pass down weapons their children can use in their base class, if I recall correctly.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I agree with this, but I disagree it should be staves. If anything, he should gain Lances upon promotion. That would reflect better he descends from both Baldr and Njörun, embracing both parts of his bloodline.

I would not object to Sword-Lance infantry Leif, as that is a startlingly rare combo in the series. And while it would be better than sword lock, it wouldn't be as good as staves for the reasons I've mentioned. Then again, it would give you another option to use lances in the final few chapters, as the only options available (promoted Dalsin or Xavier) are a bitch to make any use of.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I meant mechanically his inheritance. Ethlyn can't pass down her staves to him, as parents can only pass down weapons their children can use in their base class, if I recall correctly.

Parents also pass down legendary weapons, even if they cannot be used. So, if you pair Tiltyu with Claud, Arthur will inherit a Valkyrie Staff... that he can never use.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

1. His class already has it! At least, the female version of it does. So why is Leif any different? Well the answer is that Jugdral had this slightly odd female association with staves (despite the most powerful staff going to Claude and his male heir). Not only does the female version of the prince class get staves, but so too do female paladins! This isn't readily noticable as Oifey is the only playable paladin.

There's an interesting sort of "balance" here - male Paladins get B in Swords and Lances, while female Paladins get B Swords, C Lances, and C Staves. This means that a promoted Alec or Naoise can use the Brave Lance, whereas a promoted Ethlyn... cannot. Likewise for War Mages - Amid promotes into B Swords, while Linda gets C Swords and B Staves.

Broadly speaking, I'd say the female versions of these classes get the longer end of the stick, but it's not a unilateral advantage.

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

3. It mitigates the grind to Master Knight. Because staff use =  free exp.

Counter-point: Leif is supposed to suck when you get him. His piss-poor performance in first-tier "balances out" his overwhelming utility, mobility, and combat prowess upon promotion. By making him hard to train, getting him to promotion becomes all the more rewarding.

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

I would not object to Sword-Lance infantry Leif, as that is a startlingly rare combo in the series. And while it would be better than sword lock, it wouldn't be as good as staves for the reasons I've mentioned. Then again, it would give you another option to use lances in the final few chapters, as the only options available (promoted Dalsin or Xavier) are a bitch to make any use of.

Giving the Prince class C Lances (B with minor Njorun blood) would be a flavorful little buff to FE4 Leif. He'd still have a rough time before promotion, but he'd have extra options to stand out from Seliph and the Sword Twins. I wouldn't be opposed to that at all.

[Acacia Sgt]

22 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Likewise for War Mages - Amid promotes into B Swords, while Linda gets C Swords and B Staves.

Looking up, male Mage Fighters still have C Swords, not B.

Also, for its worth, the Prince class does have the advantage of base A Swords over the Princess' B. Thing is, this doesn't matter in-game since Lachesis has her Holy Blood.

Likewise Ethlyn, and Nanna for that matter, get to have A Swords also due to Holy Blood. But yeah, that's a somewhat different matter altogether.

I'd say, that thing about female classes and staves is quite interesting. I had noticed some of those, but I had missed it went further than that. Since, as mentioned, female Mage Fighters also get staves while the male ones don't. And then you have the Falcon Knights which also get staves in this game.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Looking up, male Mage Fighters still have C Swords, not B.

Interesting: the page on male Mage Fighters in general gives them C-rank Swords, but Amid's page says he has B Swords upon promotion. You know what, I'm doing an FE4 subs run as we speak. So I'll probably have definitive proof, one way or the other, in the next few days.

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Also, for its worth, the Prince class does have the advantage of base A Swords over the Princess' B. Thing is, this doesn't matter in-game since Lachesis has her Holy Blood.

Ah, quite the technicality. I could see this making a difference in a randomized playthrough, though.

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Likewise Ethlyn, and Nanna for that matter, get to have A Swords also due to Holy Blood. But yeah, that's a somewhat different matter altogether.

I think that makes Jeanne the only Troubadour - and the only potential female Paladin - who is held down at B Swords.

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And then you have the Falcon Knights which also get staves in this game.

That one's not a gendered thing, though, since all playable fliers are female in FE4. Arion can be NPC'd in the last map, but that's it.

Honestly, though, Falcon Knight's ranks are just cracked. An automatic A in both Swords and Lances, plus C Staves? That's perhaps the best line among all playable classes, aside from the renowned Master Knight, and possibly Sage and General.

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Interesting: the page on male Mage Fighters in general gives them C-rank Swords, but Amid's page says he has B Swords upon promotion. You know what, I'm doing an FE4 subs run as we speak. So I'll probably have definitive proof, one way or the other, in the next few days.

More curiously, checking the class page says they only have C Swords. Perhaps someone made a mistake in Amid's page? But yes, it'd be best to check in-game.

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That one's not a gendered thing, though, since all playable fliers are female in FE4. Arion can be NPC'd in the last map, but that's it.

The class itself is still female only, which goes back to the original statement that:

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well the answer is that Jugdral had this slightly odd female association with staves

Considering that pegasi riders having Staff access isn't something that happened before or after (not for a long while at least), it does gives credence to the idea.

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly, though, Falcon Knight's ranks are just cracked. An automatic A in both Swords and Lances, plus C Staves? That's perhaps the best line among all playable classes, aside from the renowned Master Knight, and possibly Sage and General.

No wonder they lost Staff usage in Thraccia.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Counter-point: Leif is supposed to suck when you get him. His piss-poor performance in first-tier "balances out" his overwhelming utility, mobility, and combat prowess upon promotion. By making him hard to train, getting him to promotion becomes all the more rewarding.

This is true, and I was expecting someone to say it. But if it truly is such an integral part of the class, then Lachesis shouldn't have staves either.

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Looking up, male Mage Fighters still have C Swords, not B.

Also, for its worth, the Prince class does have the advantage of base A Swords over the Princess' B. Thing is, this doesn't matter in-game since Lachesis has her Holy Blood.

Likewise Ethlyn, and Nanna for that matter, get to have A Swords also due to Holy Blood. But yeah, that's a somewhat different matter altogether.

I'd say, that thing about female classes and staves is quite interesting. I had noticed some of those, but I had missed it went further than that. Since, as mentioned, female Mage Fighters also get staves while the male ones don't. And then you have the Falcon Knights which also get staves in this game.

This is why I'd really like to see reclassing in Genealogy. As the classes have a lot of elements like this that just aren't appreciable because the small cast size means there's basically one of each class (if even) and their native traits are just lost in the mix with the class. If we had reclassing we could actually see native weapon ranks better and holy blood could influence classes they wouldn't be paired with normally (it'd be pretty cool if holy blood let you use weapons at a low rank a class couldn't normally use, like Lex's axe rank would give him D axes in any non axe class like swordmaster or mage).

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

More curiously, checking the class page says they only have C Swords. Perhaps someone made a mistake in Amid's page? But yes, it'd be best to check in-game.

The class itself is still female only, which goes back to the original statement that:

Considering that pegasi riders having Staff access isn't something that happened before or after (not for a long while at least), it does gives credence to the idea.

No wonder they lost Staff usage in Thraccia.

They pulled a Leif on the pegasus Knight's in Thracia too, where the promoted Thracia class is the base Genealogy class. So Falcon Knights are like secret third tier units in Genealogy.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

This is why I'd really like to see reclassing in Genealogy. As the classes have a lot of elements like this that just aren't appreciable because the small cast size means there's basically one of each class (if even) and their native traits are just lost in the mix with the class. If we had reclassing we could actually see native weapon ranks better and holy blood could influence classes they wouldn't be paired with normally (it'd be pretty cool if holy blood let you use weapons at a low rank a class couldn't normally use, like Lex's axe rank would give him D axes in any non axe class like swordmaster or mage).

If I recall, Engage did this to a degree. Characters have innate weapon affinities (those they already have without needing to be granted by the Emblems), where if they reclassed to certain classes, they'd gain 1 weapon rank depending on the affinity. So basically same effect as Minor Holy Blood in that sense.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

They pulled a Leif on the pegasus Knight's in Thracia too, where the promoted Thracia class is the base Genealogy class. So Falcon Knights are like secret third tier units in Genealogy.

Amusingly enough, there is an unused Pegasus Rider class in Genealogy, with C weapon ranks compared to the Pegasus Knight's B. Which... yeah, makes it a three tiered progression.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

This is true, and I was expecting someone to say it. But if it truly is such an integral part of the class, then Lachesis shouldn't have staves either.

Counter-counter-counterpoint: Lachesis joins later within her generation (less time to grow), with no item or weapon inheritance, and even worse combat than Leif. Without staff access, she'd be "functionally impossible", rather than merely "difficult and time-consuming", to promote.

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Considering that pegasi riders having Staff access isn't something that happened before or after (not for a long while at least), it does gives credence to the idea.

For some reason, I tend to associate Falcon Knights with staves... even though, before Awakening, the only game where that was true was Genealogy. Huh. I'm a fan of them being a hybrid combat/support class, but there are situations where it makes the class "too good".

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

This is why I'd really like to see reclassing in Genealogy. As the classes have a lot of elements like this that just aren't appreciable because the small cast size means there's basically one of each class (if even) and their native traits are just lost in the mix with the class. If we had reclassing we could actually see native weapon ranks better and holy blood could influence classes they wouldn't be paired with normally (it'd be pretty cool if holy blood let you use weapons at a low rank a class couldn't normally use, like Lex's axe rank would give him D axes in any non axe class like swordmaster or mage).

D-ranks don't exist in FE4, C is the minimum. But yeah, that could be neat. I do worry if something like "Swordmaster Arden", while goofy, would take too much away from unit uniqueness?

Another option would be to do Branched promotions, either via a direct choice, or via a unit-specific event. I.e. if Jamke fights Sandima, he'll promote to Warrior instead of Sniper. Some could be parent-specific, too: like Claud!Arthur going High Priest instead of Mage Knight, or Dew!Scathach going Rogue rather than Hero.

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

For some reason, I tend to associate Falcon Knights with staves... even though, before Awakening, the only game where that was true was Genealogy. Huh. I'm a fan of them being a hybrid combat/support class, but there are situations where it makes the class "too good".

Taking into account only the recent games, yeah, it makes sense. Since one way or another, Magic Fliers became much more common only recently. If not staff wielding Falcon Knights, it's Tome wielding (Dark Flier), or even magic using wyvern riders (Malign Knight). And then Engage replaced the Falcon Knight with Griffon Knight, but still wielding Staffs, and then gave us two pure magic flying classes with the Elusian Royal Prf's.

But yeah, before that it was just Genealogy Falcons. Well, they and Elincia, who was most likely a throwback as a lot of stuff in Tellius.

14 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Another option would be to do Branched promotions, either via a direct choice, or via a unit-specific event. I.e. if Jamke fights Sandima, he'll promote to Warrior instead of Sniper. Some could be parent-specific, too: like Claud!Arthur going High Priest instead of Mage Knight, or Dew!Scathach going Rogue rather than Hero.

Was going to say, but then I remember the children having different class options depending on the parent was only in hacks.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

51 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Counter-counter-counterpoint: Lachesis joins later within her generation (less time to grow), with no item or weapon inheritance, and even worse combat than Leif. Without staff access, she'd be "functionally impossible", rather than merely "difficult and time-consuming", to promote.

For some reason, I tend to associate Falcon Knights with staves... even though, before Awakening, the only game where that was true was Genealogy. Huh. I'm a fan of them being a hybrid combat/support class, but there are situations where it makes the class "too good".

D-ranks don't exist in FE4, C is the minimum. But yeah, that could be neat. I do worry if something like "Swordmaster Arden", while goofy, would take too much away from unit uniqueness?

Another option would be to do Branched promotions, either via a direct choice, or via a unit-specific event. I.e. if Jamke fights Sandima, he'll promote to Warrior instead of Sniper. Some could be parent-specific, too: like Claud!Arthur going High Priest instead of Mage Knight, or Dew!Scathach going Rogue rather than Hero.

Well as I've said in the past Iike Fate's "single alternate class" mechanic best, as it aside from providing most of the benefits of class changing (usually there's only one or two alternate classes you want for a unit, or there's just one objectively fantastic class you put every unit you can in if you're not playing for fun) it actually says something about their character. Like of Brigid had pirate as her class change. So we wouldn't need to have sometimes like sword master Arden (obviously he'd suddenly be top tier as a wyvern knight!).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:59 PM, Jotari said:

Well as I've said in the past Iike Fate's "single alternate class" mechanic best, as it aside from providing most of the benefits of class changing (usually there's only one or two alternate classes you want for a unit, or there's just one objectively fantastic class you put every unit you can in if you're not playing for fun) it actually says something about their character. Like of Brigid had pirate as her class change.

That would be good stylistically. Although, I wonder if anyone would actually use that class for her? It would mean losing Pursuit, after all. On the flip side, she'd get Yewfelle back (assuming she promotes to Warrior), while being able to challenge either Arena.

On 5/9/2023 at 10:59 PM, Jotari said:

So we wouldn't need to have sometimes like sword master Arden (obviously he'd suddenly be top tier as a wyvern knight!).

Myrmidon is actually a perfect reclass for Arden. He's obsessed with "the Power of Pursuit", so getting into a class where he doesn't need a specific ring to double would be a dream come true.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 5/9/2023 at 2:55 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

More curiously, checking the class page says they only have C Swords. Perhaps someone made a mistake in Amid's page? But yes, it'd be best to check in-game.

Quick update: I just got Amid to promote (took a mere two months, haha), and he indeed had C-rank Swords. Seems that his page on the wiki was mistaken. Also, that the male War Mage is strictly inferior to the female variant. Shame, that.

Only way for a War Mage to have B Swords would be with Sword-boosting Holy Blood. In practice, this can only be minor Odo blood from Chulainn. Motivation to do Tiltyu x Chulainn in a future playthrough? Who knows...

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 5/9/2023 at 5:54 PM, Jotari said:

(it'd be pretty cool if holy blood let you use weapons at a low rank a class couldn't normally use, like Lex's axe rank would give him D axes in any non axe class like swordmaster or mage).

That would conflict with the existing mechanics, so you might have to make adjustments to that. It mostly matters for children, I guess.