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Whats up with: FE10 Chapter 2-E: Elincia's Gambit?


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Copied from FEU to broaden the opinions:

Hey y'all! Hope you are doin' well!
So recently, I just beat Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. It was truly an experience unlike any other. Though going into such a interesting game, I had a certain interest in one of it's many chapters.

Meet **Chapter 2-E: Elincia's Gambit.** A widely popular chapter in the broad FE Community. Up there with Conquest Chapter 10, FE6 Chapter 11A. Even the Manster Arc if that counts! So, regarding such a chapter (Elincia's Gambit), what do you think about it? From a narrative perspective? A gameplay perspective? A design perspective? Whatever you've got!
Alright, see ya!

-MegaCowsamMan

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I'm a big fan! It was always a challenge for me in the past, and for new players, its easy to get overwhelmed (with breakable terrain being... y'know, breakable). By now, I've pretty much settled on "Haar guards one chokepoint, Brom and Mordecai tag-team the other". But even with that, there's a lot of midfield play that can go on, especially with your fliers. Also a few rewards, like Nullify and the Dracoshield, worth extending yourself for. Finally, while I love sitting back and riding out the enemy waves, having the option to end it sooner by challenging Ludveck directly is very nice for player freedom. If there's any gripe, it's with the yellow units sometime getting in the way of my preferred plays. Still, it's probably my favorite map in RD.

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I thought it was epic when I first played Radiant Dawn as my first Fire Emblem game. But now it feels like a pretty straightforward chapter where you just have to get Elincia in position to one round Ludveck.

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Since others haven't talked much about the narrative side, I'll just say that I found the narrative did the Hollywood thing of insisting on fancy "tactics" for both sides when playing it by the book would maybe make more sense.  Bastian intentionally lets the rebellion fester to better put it out dramatically.  Ludveck intentionally lets his home base fall with a token garrison so that he can move around with his main army.  Elincia retreats from the castle to her hideaway because...  I'm really not sure why she does this, but the narrative thinks it's a reasonable play if Ludveck had attacked the capital (wait, what?  Wouldn't she want to be at the capital then?).  I guess a rebellion that arose despite best efforts to stop it, that protected its main territory tenaciously, and that Elincia met head-on rather than ingloriously abandoning the capital would have been too vanilla or something?  But almost all of these "gambits" seem counterproductive to me.  They could certainly be justified, but they kinda aren't, really.  Imagine if President Zelensky of Ukraine had abandoned Kiev/Kyiv in 2022 - the result is probably the Ukrainian government collapsing.  (I guess, from the writer's perspective, they didn't want to devalue the final battle of Path of Radiance by doing another battle in a nearby spot but with the sides reversed?  idk.)

Also, the narrative doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but Bastian is kinda equally guilty as Ludveck here.  After the battle, Elincia criticizes Ludveck for gambling with innocent civilian lives for his little ploy, but Bastian really does the same thing if he knew Ludveck was rebellious and intentionally let him start his rebellion so it could be defeated, which, uh, also will get innocent lives killed.  A dangerous game, especially if more of the unnamed background nobles had thrown their lot in with Ludveck, something hard to predict.  And what's the point?  I would have been much happier if Bastian had tried to do something about it, but Ludveck had been too canny.  "Yeah, we tried offering Ludveck the position of Ambassador to Goldoa or something to get him very far from here, but he declined.  Then we tried to invite him to the capital with the offer of a high government position, but he said he was busy ruling his own lands and happy there.  Then we tried blah blah blah, but by then he'd already declared his rebellion and it was too late."  That would have the effect of making both Bastian and Ludveck look more competent.

It's not a huge criticism or anything, I do like that RD Chapter 2 grapples with a rebellion from the side of the government for once, and also more seriously explores the idea that a medieval monarch isn't all-powerful if they lose the trust of their nobility, who are doing a lot of the real managing of a kingdom, and only obey the king/queen because they trust them and have confidence in them.  If that trust is broken...

Edited by SnowFire
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2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Since others haven't talked much about the narrative side, I'll just say that I found the narrative did the Hollywood thing of insisting on fancy "tactics" for both sides when playing it by the book would maybe make more sense.  Bastian intentionally lets the rebellion fester to better put it out dramatically.  Ludveck intentionally lets his home base fall with a token garrison so that he can move around with his main army.  Elincia retreats from the castle to her hideaway because...  I'm really not sure why she does this, but the narrative thinks it's a reasonable play if Ludveck had attacked the capital (wait, what?  Wouldn't she want to be at the capital then?).  I guess a rebellion that arose despite best efforts to stop it, that protected its main territory tenaciously, and that Elincia met head-on rather than ingloriously abandoning the capital would have been too vanilla or something?  But almost all of these "gambits" seem counterproductive to me.  They could certainly be justified, but they kinda aren't, really.  Imagine if President Zelensky of Ukraine had abandoned Kiev/Kyiv in 2022 - the result is probably the Ukrainian government collapsing.  (I guess, from the writer's perspective, they didn't want to devalue the final battle of Path of Radiance by doing another battle in a nearby spot but with the sides reversed?  idk.)

Also, the narrative doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but Bastian is kinda equally guilty as Ludveck here.  After the battle, Elincia criticizes Ludveck for gambling with innocent civilian lives for his little ploy, but Bastian really does the same thing if he knew Ludveck was rebellious and intentionally let him start his rebellion so it could be defeated, which, uh, also will get innocent lives killed.  A dangerous game, especially if more of the unnamed background nobles had thrown their lot in with Ludveck, something hard to predict.  And what's the point?  I would have been much happier if Bastian had tried to do something about it, but Ludveck had been too canny.  "Yeah, we tried offering Ludveck the position of Ambassador to Goldoa or something to get him very far from here, but he declined.  Then we tried to invite him to the capital with the offer of a high government position, but he said he was busy ruling his own lands and happy there.  Then we tried blah blah blah, but by then he'd already declared his rebellion and it was too late."  That would have the effect of making both Bastian and Ludveck look more competent.

It's not a huge criticism or anything, I do like that RD Chapter 2 grapples with a rebellion from the side of the government for once, and also more seriously explores the idea that a medieval monarch isn't all-powerful if they lose the trust of their nobility, who are doing a lot of the real managing of a kingdom, and only obey the king/queen because they trust them and have confidence in them.  If that trust is broken...

On this narrative side, much like Lang in Mystery of the Emblem, I would have really liked it if Ludveck was even a token character in Path of Radiance, much like how Izuka is. But I guess Part 2 really is just filler and they had no plans for it when they made Path of Radiance.

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Gameplay: my thoughts basically mirror @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate. Good, fun defence map, which rewards pushing forward well. Going for a quick boss kill feels deeply anticlimactic to me (as it basically always does on defence maps that allow the option) but I don't think it's bad that the option for players who want (even if it makes unit rating conversations more annoying).

 

On story: I think both Elincia and Ludveck wanting to not have their clash in Melior does in fact make sense? From the point of view of both, it spares the citizenry of the city to have their clash at a military location. And from the point of view of Ludveck... it depends. If the people of Melior would welcome him with open arms, then yeah it would make sense just to head straight to Melior and crown himself king. But if he fears popular resistance should he do that, it does make more sense for him to capture Elincia and force her to abdicate the throne, forestalling any possibility of Crimeans rallying arround her as queen-in-exile. Especially since at this point he has Lucia as a trump card to try to force this abdication whatever the outcome of their battle.

I do agree that Bastian's plan to let the rebellion come to a head is completely reckless.

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

On this narrative side, much like Lang in Mystery of the Emblem, I would have really liked it if Ludveck was even a token character in Path of Radiance, much like how Izuka is.

It'd have been cool, but it's okay that he's not. If you've ever written anything you know that stories evolve in the telling, and sometimes you conceive of characters or arcs mid-storytelling, especially for longer stories like the PoR-RD duology. I imagine the specifics of Ludveck weren't ironed out until PoR was near release, or perhaps even later. Same with Jarod. I do appreciate the cameos of Izuka and Lekain though.

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1 minute ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It'd have been cool, but it's okay that he's not. If you've ever written anything you know that stories evolve in the telling, and sometimes you conceive of characters or arcs mid-storytelling, especially for longer stories like the PoR-RD duology. I imagine the specifics of Ludveck weren't ironed out until PoR was near release, or perhaps even later. Same with Jarod. I do appreciate the cameos of Izuka and Lekain though.

Oh yeah it's perfectly understandable that he just wasn't invented yet. Not saying his lack of inclusion ruins the story, just that it would have been nice. And Path of Radiance in particular was a game very much doing stuff like that. Zelgius's role in it is pretty much a cameo too (Kurthnaga a little bit too). Though Path of Radiance does mention a handful of Crimeian nobles we never see or get any information on when Lucia first shows up. They could have used the Ludveck character concept for General Tagio, Silok or Marquis Mitnala. I don't think Radiant Dawn gives us any indication as to what Ludveck was actually doing during the war, nor do I think Path of Radiance gives us any information on his territory Felirae.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah it's perfectly understandable that he just wasn't invented yet. Not saying his lack of inclusion ruins the story, just that it would have been nice. And Path of Radiance in particular was a game very much doing stuff like that. Zelgius's role in it is pretty much a cameo too (Kurthnaga a little bit too). Though Path of Radiance does mention a handful of Crimeian nobles we never see or get any information on when Lucia first shows up. They could have used the Ludveck character concept for General Tagio, Silok or Marquis Mitnala. I don't think Radiant Dawn gives us any indication as to what Ludveck was actually doing during the war, nor do I think Path of Radiance gives us any information on his territory Felirae.

Yeah, that makes sense, and I agree.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Elincia's Gambit is my favourite map of the whole series, simply because it's a defend chapter how it should be.

Two entrances to protect which might not be a bad deal, but there's more like killing the boss to get the tomahawk and stealing the one or other goodie. 

Sure, Haar and Elincia (unless she's in range of a crossbow) can trivialize this map, and it's pretty much a memo chapter once beating it once, but it still offers its fun for me.

The only downside might be that this chapter can be easily beaten before the Crimean Knights appear, so they kinda don't have a role here.

Also the cutscene before the end of this part is also the BEST of the whole series (althogh the voiceacting of a few people isn't the best).

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38 minutes ago, Lady Hortensia said:

Elincia's Gambit is my favourite map of the whole series, simply because it's a defend chapter how it should be.

Two entrances to protect which might not be a bad deal, but there's more like killing the boss to get the tomahawk and stealing the one or other goodie. 

Sure, Haar and Elincia (unless she's in range of a crossbow) can trivialize this map, and it's pretty much a memo chapter once beating it once, but it still offers its fun for me.

Memo chapter? Do you mean meme chapter?

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Memo chapter? Do you mean meme chapter?

oooh sorry, wasn't clear enough

I meant "memo" for memorizing.

I guess I watched too many Touhou videos to use this abbreviation.

Once this chapter is beaten once, the placement of the allies in every turn is obvious.

I know it applies to pretty much most chapters, lol, unless certain units don't have the expected stats.

Though in this chapter the carriers (Haar, Elincia) start with default stats.

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1 hour ago, Lady Hortensia said:

oooh sorry, wasn't clear enough

I meant "memo" for memorizing.

I guess I watched too many Touhou videos to use this abbreviation.

Once this chapter is beaten once, the placement of the allies in every turn is obvious.

I know it applies to pretty much most chapters, lol, unless certain units don't have the expected stats.

Though in this chapter the carriers (Haar, Elincia) start with default stats.

Oh yeah, that makes sense, I said something to similar effect. I was thinking even meme wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

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