[complete] A small Maniac play log

[Vicious Sal]

2 hours ago, Uscari said:

I get your point about rules and restrictions, maybe cheating was a harsh word.

I think from a balance and difficulty evaluation standpoint, it makes sense to play the game the way the developers intended, and not abuse exploits/glitches. I don't think it's valid to say "This difficulty is easy because I can use this glitch/exploit to beat it" when it's clear that the difficulty was built around what tools the developers intended to be available to the player.

That's rather hypocritical, why are you talking about Maniac Mode then, since that was literally a mode removed in the final version of the product and thus was clearly not intended to be played. 

As has been said above, those playthroughs, even if they don't allign with your moral code, can still prove valuable insights and can still be learned from to apply to other playthroughs. The Typhoon Carter playthrough plays with 100% growths, which is just the same as rigging without all the resets. The chili one is 0% growths with critforges, because it uses existing game mechanics -intended or not- to play around the loss of stats. 

Playing 0% with critforges is still a lower power level than with growths but without critforges. And they completed the game in 149 turns. There is a lot to be learned from that. If you cannot acknowledge that you can still enjoy playing the game your way, but you can't expect people to take your advice and tiering seriously, as it is incredibly linear and close minded. 

[Uscari]

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

That's rather hypocritical, why are you talking about Maniac Mode then, since that was literally a mode removed in the final version of the product and thus was clearly not intended to be played. 

As has been said above, those playthroughs, even if they don't allign with your moral code, can still prove valuable insights and can still be learned from to apply to other playthroughs. The Typhoon Carter playthrough plays with 100% growths, which is just the same as rigging without all the resets. The chili one is 0% growths with critforges, because it uses existing game mechanics -intended or not- to play around the loss of stats. 

Playing 0% with critforges is still a lower power level than with growths but without critforges. And they completed the game in 149 turns. There is a lot to be learned from that. If you cannot acknowledge that you can still enjoy playing the game your way, but you can't expect people to take your advice and tiering seriously, as it is incredibly linear and close minded. 

Well I don't think it's fair to say the localized version is really the "final version". Yes it was the last version to be released, but that doesn't mean the japanese-exclusive difficulty is "outdated". I think they honestly just felt that western gamers unfamiliar with fire emblem needed the game to be easier.

It's not so much about a moral code, we're talking about a single player game, you don't hurt anyone by cheating or using exploits, but I just think you learn less about the game when you don't play it as intended. The maps, enemies, and mechanics of this game are built on the premise that certain constraints apply, such as your units having limited growth rates, and that critical hits are rare, not certain.

I'm not saying you can't learn from these variations to the game, like you can certainly learn from 0% growth rates, and you can learn how effective units would be if they 1-rounded everything with crits, but I just don't think you can learn as much as you would playing normally. I don't think you would base tiers and balance on abnormal or adjusted playthroughs.

[ping]

Chapter 15

Spoiler

• Support: Lethe/Jill (C)
• Soren: Master Seal (at Lv. 18.13), picking Staves, to everybody's surprise.
• BEXP: Marcia (2.87->3, 20 BEXP) - HP, Skl, Spd, Def
• 130 BEXP remaining.
• Forge: Hand Axe with 12 (+5) Might, 75 (+20) Hit - 5621 gold

Genocidal approach. Surviving Laguz only give 20 BEXP, according to FEWOD, which even their kill XP for Marcia matches or exeeds, so I think this map is best done full pacifist for the additional BEXP that gives, or full murderhobo for the ease of it.

I've actually beaten the map three times - first time I overwrote because I made a character usage decision that made the forge superfluous, second time I just straight forgot to forge anything. On the plus side, both overwritten clears were done in 8 turns, while this third was was done in seven, which is to say barely within the BEXP limit.

Generally speaking, Lethe, Jill, Volke, and Mordecai moved towards the east, with the first three doing combat as appropriate. Since I haven't been using him, Volke's damage output was pretty pathetic, even against untransformed Laguz, but he managed to get one or two kills in. I was a bit lucky that these three were able to get all the treasure in seven turns - Volke got the Physic and then the White Gem before the Statue Frag while the tiger guarding it was still alive, and Mordecai couldn't take/drop him from Jill on turn 6 because the tiger attacked him from the wrong side, blocking his path. Luckily, Mordecai managed to grab the Statue Frag on T7, otherwise I would've had to wait for Volke on T8.

On the western part of the map, Sothe grabbed the majority of the treasure (Ike randomly grabbed the nearest coin, Soren got the Shine tome, and I didn't get the second coin), plus two of the one-use Laguz Stones and a Vuln. He had to survive two rounds of combat to do so (getting healed in between, ofc), but at least he's fast enough to avoid being doubled.

Bosskill went to Soren, who ended up doing only three heals, but a fair amount of combat. Marcia could've gotten the kill, too, but I was too tempted to leave her very close to a BEXP-able level-up.

The Team:

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20.00	  39   16   5  17  17  16  15   9   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/4.97	  40   19   7  20  23  12  20  14   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	19.81	  31   17   0  14  15   7  16   7

Boyd	21/3.72	  47   22   2  19  19  11  13   6
Volke	12.75	  27   27   0  15  13   8   8   4
Sothe	1.23	  base

Mordy	2.91	  base
Lethe	4.69	  36   13   4  11  13  15   9   7

Soren	18/2.48	  37    2  18  22  15   9   8  23
Rhys	15.57	  23    1  16  11   9  11   5  20*

Kieran	unchanged
Titania unchanged
Zihark	unchanged
Neph	unchanged
Stefan	base

Zihark and Nephenee were useful as shove bots, Titania and Kieran are only here to advance their supports. Didn't really have anyone else who really wanted to be fielded.

I have been bashing my head against chapter 16 a bit - with the thieves in the NW corner appearing before turn 4, one or two turns earlier than on hard, it's kinda tricky to get both the Bolting and the Physic, unless you're willing to just murder Devdan. If Marcia could just go ahead killing everything on enemy phase with a Javelin +5, getting the first thief would be easy, but she (or Jill) needs to unequip to lure Devdan into Soren's range, so that enemy phase is very unproductive, which leads to a lot of enemies between our team and the thief inside the treasure chamber.

Of course, I could say fuck it and be satisfied with just the Bolting tome, but that would be admitting defeat.

Edited May 29, 2023 by gnip

[Aircalipoor]

One unit alone is unlikely to get the thief without murdering Devdan. But if a second unit is in his range and has lesser defense, it should work. Next turn,that second unit can beat one enemy so that no one is in the way bwteen Marcia and the thief.

The physic isn't needed, especially if you got the two that were possible obtained beforehand.

Have fun for chapter 17. Let your reinforcements carry items because you can run out. 17-4 can be hell. A Super Marcia can theoretically 1-Turn it, but she needs to be beefy (Advantage and Guard helps) and 23 Str. (or 22 Str and Spear, but hit rates suck). You will love 17-4s reinforcements.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Aircalipoor

[Uscari]

2 hours ago, gnip said:

I have been bashing my head against chapter 16 a bit - with the thieves in the NW corner appearing before turn 4, one or two turns earlier than on hard, it's kinda tricky to get both the Bolting and the Physic, unless you're willing to just murder Devdan. If Marcia could just go ahead killing everything on enemy phase with a Javelin +5, getting the first thief would be easy, but she (or Jill) needs to unequip to lure Devdan into Soren's range, so that enemy phase is very unproductive, which leads to a lot of enemies between our team and the thief inside the treasure chamber.

Of course, I could say fuck it and be satisfied with just the Bolting tome, but that would be admitting defeat.

With your team, I don't see any way to get the Bolting, Physic, and recruit Devdan. You don't have enough strong units or 1-2 range weapons to create a path for someone to recruit Devdan safely.

I think you should just go in with Marcia and a forged javelin, just kill Devdan, he's a bad unit anyways. Not worth the trouble.

The Physic alone is worth more than Devdan as a unit. Still it might be good to let Titania and Jill tag along with Marcia, because there are a couple of archers on this map that could be threatening to her even with her impressive 20 defense. Also if Jill gets enough experience she might be able to get a free heal from her promotion.

[Shadow Mir]

How much speed does the thief have? Because you can just steal it back.

[ping]

8 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

The physic isn't needed, especially if you got the two that were possible obtained beforehand.

Yeah, I got both and I've only used four charges thus far. I don't need it, but it's a challenge.

6 hours ago, Uscari said:

With your team, I don't see any way to get the Bolting, Physic, and recruit Devdan. You don't have enough strong units or 1-2 range weapons to create a path for someone to recruit Devdan safely.

That, too, is a challenge.

Also incorrect, though - the last attempt only failed because I had traded Marcia's forged Steel Lance away and she didn't quite have the strength to one-round the Sniper in that top left treasure room. So it's definitely doable, I just need to play better (and maybe be a bit lucky with hit rates and enemy movement).

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

How much speed does the thief have? Because you can just steal it back.

15, I think, so Volke is three points short.

[ping]

Chapter 16:

 

Spoiler

• Support: Ike/Soren (B). Titania/Rhys (A) is available, but I think I want the Titania/Boyd A support.
• Titania: Energy Drop. Screw it, Titania comes to endgame. If Old Man Marcus can kill Zephiel, then Titania can kill... well, not Ashnard, don't get me started about that, but this is explicitly not a meme decision. I do believe that Titania, while not a carry, will remain a decent pick for the rest of the game.
• Jill: Boots. Since she's very close to promoting, too, and I think she'll be a better user than Marcia in the long run.
• BEXP: Kieran (18.65->19, 47 BEXP) - Str, Spd, Lck, Res
• BEXP: Marcia (4.97->5, 5 BEXP) - Str, Mag, Def
• BEXP: Jill (19.81->20, 26 BEXP) - HP, Str, Spd
• BEXP: Astrid (7.24->10, 138 BEXP) - +2 HP, +3 Str, +1 Mag, +1 Skl, +3 Spd, +1 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res
  • I swear I didn't reset for Str/Spd/Def levels, but I *was* rigging and her levels were either really good or really bad. But don't worry, she balanced this out with an empty level and a Spd/Lck level in combat.
• 64 BEXP remaining.
• Forge: Steel Axe with 16 (+5) Might, 80 (+15) Hit - 3844 gold

Step one: Smite Marcia so she can one-round the Sniper from melee range. Jill then swaps her over to a (forged) Javelin, while chipping (or in this case, critting) one of the Myrmidons. The enemies generally go for Jill on EP, too, so she gets a fair bit of chip XP here.

Step two: Marcia and Jill keep charging forward. Jill gets attacked by the mages because of her lower Res, which gains her enough XP to get a very well-timed promotion on enemy phase. Everybody else just cleans up as well as possible, although i had a number of misses in this particular attempt, leaving that Myrm and the Javelin Halbadier alive. Luckily, they didn't team up on Astrid, with the Halbadier attacking Volke, who's out of the Myrm's range.

Step three: Laugh at x2 effectiveness and watch Jill kill four Knights with a +5 Steel Axe forge. The Jav Knight also attacked her from melee range, but I don't know why. Useful, though, since Jill needs the higher might of a Steel forge instead of a Hand Axe to one-round the Knights.

You see Titania carry Soren - she's going to loop around the southern path to get him close enough to Devdan, although he's still going to need a shove. Giving him to Jill (Marcia is busy killing the Sniper since Jill can't double him) instead so that she could carry him ahead further probably would've worked just as well. Jill and Marcia stay out of Devdan's range on turn 4...

...and Marcia then unequips her weapon and draws him on turn 5. From a corner with two attack spots instead of next to Jill because I wasn't entirely sure about the turn order. Devdan moves early, before the reinforcements do, but I wasn't sure about that other Soldier next to him.

Marcia positions herself to counter-kill the two Myrmidons in the room, but outside the Killer Bow Sniper's range. Titania and Devdan completely block the second thief, who just turns around and leaves as a result. I want the first one to open one chest, but Titania has a one-use key for the other one.

With a +5 forge, Marcia easily one-rounds the Sniper the next turn with a +5 Forge (2 x 21 damage vs. 33 HP, 91 disp. hit). Titania chips the thief, Soren (shoved by Devdan) takes the kill.

This ends up being a 9-turn clear, losing me 15 BEXP, because I had Volke do some minor combat before heading to the central treasure room. Boyd and Astrid got the one to the right, immediately using the chest key from the Halbadier. Kieran and Astrid did get some final kills against the first wave of Soldier reinforcements from the starting location, so I suppose that does make up for the lost BEXP. No stolen Mend staves either, but I think I'll manage.

Oh right, forgot about the boss kill. Very dangerous foe, indeed!

The Team:

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20.00	  39   16   5  17  17  16  15   9   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/6.32	  40   21   8  21  23  12  22  14   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	21/3.16	  38   22   3  17  19   8  18   8   (+2 Move)

Kieran	20.00	  33   14   2  14  16  11  14   3
Titania */8.83	  39   15   7  16  18  15  15  11   (+2 Str)
Astrid	12.88	  22   12   4  11  15   7  10   6

Boyd	21/4.13	  48   23   2  20  19  12  13   6
Volke	13.28	  28   13   1  16  13   8   8   4

Soren	18/3.12	  37    3  18  23  15  10   8  23
Rhys	16.01	  23    1  17  11   9  11   5  20*

Mordy	2.98	  base
Devdan	*/4.00	  base

e: I forgot the battle report for the desert map. It's edited in now, but for those interested but not that much that they would scroll up:

Spoiler

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by gnip

[Aircalipoor]

2 hours ago, gnip said:

Since she's very close to promoting, too, and I think she'll be a better user than Marcia in the long run.

Blasphemy to deny Super Marcia. Of course, Jill has a few benefits in a slow-paced run, but you will truly learn about her shortcomings when you are bombarded with enemy seize magic.

Hopefully Kieran and Astrid catch up on str, otherwise its fine, Titania can easily acompany the main group for the rest of the game, she is unlikely to ever get doubled aside from weak Swordmasters.

 

Good news from the general maniac discussion abbreviating this thread: The ltc-record-history provided the Efficiency Emblem Informative and Useful Clears Repository and among them the NTSC-J MM Glitchless Speedrun Route by Fionordequester.

While Speedrunning has a few quirks differentiating itself from other runs, this is a segmented run that focuses highly on reliability. It has fixed mode and no glitches. It also mandants Ike to defeat the Black Knight, which doesn't change the game tremendously, but it's noteworthy that over 700 BEXP is "wasted" for a 10/1 Mist just for 27 and Ike gets the precious Adept Scroll only for that fight, when it could heavily booster better units chapter 18 onwards.

The biggest "flaw" I would attribute to the run is the usage of abusing the fixed BEXP. There is a trick to save BEXP by raising it to 99 and then to 99 again instead of raising it from the next level at 0. Then the BEXP is used subsequently instead of everything at once to allow for higher stats. This is used a dozen times and is a bit questionable, but 99% of the run is extremely viable, helpful insight in case of speed and reliability.

And around two times the map is reseted so that Sleep Users have less Magic (= less range). Overall it still extremely reliable.

Here were some notes with some benchmarks: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PoumZCKrQiYVP42sp68JqvPxsyEcmDI6xvlq0UXlZwY/edit

Maybe I make topic for this run. It boils down to Ike and Oscar getting the first BEXP (they still can level while Titania ltcs the early game), so that Oscar emerges chapter 9 promoted. The chapter 10 stealth is exactly my strategy (either they came to the same conclusion, or they adopted it, I'd be cool with it) and the bexp goes for a 18/1 Kieran. Marcia grinds to 21 in chapter 12, surprisingly, that chapter is the closest where it spends turns just grinding. Super Marcia shreds the rest of the game, Ike, Oscar and Kieran are the other top 3 unit that survive everything due to supports and have good stats to ORKO. Other units help occasionally, obviously Reyson and Tanith, the Laguz for showing (also Janaff for flying) but also Calill to Meteo three enemies, Stefan, Tauroneo and Haar to tank occasionally. No mages are trained, they are just not worth it, elixirs and dodging through earth-supports or Marcias raw stats is the key.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by Aircalipoor

[Uscari]

10 hours ago, gnip said:

That, too, is a challenge.

Also incorrect, though - the last attempt only failed because I had traded Marcia's forged Steel Lance away and she didn't quite have the strength to one-round the Sniper in that top left treasure room. So it's definitely doable, I just need to play better (and maybe be a bit lucky with hit rates and enemy movement).

Well, it looks like I stand corrected, well done. I definitely underestimated how useful Jill with a forged steel axe would be after promotion. Based on your stats now it looks like your Jill is +4 strength than average, very blessed indeed. I think you were wise to give her the boots, as she will absolutely be a stronger endgame unit than Marcia.

You grabbed the dracoshield and fullguard on this map right? I would give the dracoshield to Kieran or Boyd if I were you. It looks like your Marcia is already on track to cap defense. Full guard probably would be best on Jill except for when you want Marcia to tank blizzard siege tomes.

4 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

Good news from the general maniac discussion abbreviating this thread: The ltc-record-history provided the Efficiency Emblem Informative and Useful Clears Repository and among them the NTSC-J MM Glitchless Speedrun Route by Fionordequester.

Thanks for linking this, I'll have to check it out. Could be worth its own thread.

[ping]

7 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

when you are bombarded with enemy seize magic.

Good point. I'll have to trust in the power of the Ward staff.

Interesting to see a speedrun on the highest difficulty - I'm not at all an expert in the field, but I think I've mostly seen speedruns picking the lowest difficulty. To be honest, the BEXP maximisation seems pretty mild as far as mechanic abuse goes because it's so easily available, but stuff like that is obviously always a matter of opinion.

2 hours ago, Uscari said:

You grabbed the dracoshield and fullguard on this map right? I would give the dracoshield to Kieran or Boyd if I were you. It looks like your Marcia is already on track to cap defense. Full guard probably would be best on Jill except for when you want Marcia to tank blizzard siege tomes.

I haven't used the Dracoshield yet, but I'm actually leaning towards Jill. With higher mobility comes more enemy phase combat, so I think that she'll get the most value out of the +2 Def. Kieran seems like a reasonable pick, too, though. Boyd I'm a bit more sceptical about, since Def scales better on units that already have a bunch of it (...but not enough to tink every attack, obviously) and Boyd's initially great Def growth has mostly normalised at this point. Plus, less mobility means less EP combat.

[ping]

Chapter 17:

Spoiler

• BEXP: Titania (8.83->9, 34 BEXP) - HP, Str, Spd, Lck
• BEXP: Mordecai (2.98->3, 3 BEXP) - +2 HP, Str, Skl, Def, Res
• BEXP: Astrid (12.88->15, 119 BEXP) - +2 HP, +2 Str, +2 Skl, +3 Spd, +3 Lck, +2 Def, +2 Res
  • 93 BEXP remaining.
• Support: Kieran/Rhys (B)
• Forge: Javelin with 11 (+5) Might, 75 (+15) hit - 7809 gold
• Jill: Speedwing (19->21 Spd)

First segment: 5 turns.
Pretty standard, push upwards, get crit by the "boss" with the Killer Lance, survive that crit, kill the reinforcements. The Swordmaster reinforcing from the south wasn't doubled by Marcia, which is pretty impressive. No steals with Volke yet, he's only around so that he's on the next map without delay. I managed to set up two kills for him, though, which is nice, considering he doesn't double archers. Ike was helpful in for that, actually.

Second segment: 7 turns.
Reinforcements: Boyd and Lethe.
Kieran promotes with this very first round of combat. I don't think the weapon type matters for him, but I go for lances for the authentic Mini Titania experience. Plus, WTA against what's otherwise his worst match up seems marginally useful.

And I know, I know, you don't have to actually play this map out, but there's a certain satisfaction in beating a map head on. Plus, after the effort I've made last chapter to get that Physic staff before that blasted thief did, I couldn't *not* steal another one (plus 37 uses worth of Mend) on this map, now could I? Not much else to say - once the second priest was moving into my direction, Jill moved east to make sure that I would be able to end the map right after Volke did his thing, but otherwise, it really was a pretty normal clear.

Third segment: 10 turns (duh).
Reinforcements: Stefan and Muarim.
Jill (boosted by Ward) and Marcia make a bit of a bloodbath among the mages to the east and southeast of the starting location, while everybody else clears out the immediate surroundings. Afterwards, some movement southwards to rout that part of the map and then some movement back northwards to farm the reinforcements. Complete rout, not really any particularly dangerous spots during the map.

Fourth segment: 6 turns
Reinforcements: Makalov, Oscar (no particular use, Oscar relieves Volke of two stolen staves, is all)

The first two turns were spent clearing the right part of the map and position myself outside of the Tibarn-spawning zone. Not everything could be killed on turn 1, but Marcia (after Modecai smiting) killing the furthermost Paladin made the enemy phase safe after all. This is also when Astrid gained enough XP for her promotion - obviously picking axes, as much as I like the sword-and-bow aesthetic.

The Meteor mage decided to cooperate and move down a tile to attack Kieran, which allowed Jill to kill him from a save tile. And as a happy little accident - somebody (I think Boyd) missed their attack, leaving one of the enemy Paladins alive, which drew Tibarn east, right where Mordecai could swoop him up immediately. Ulki and Janaff also got picked up, by Lethe and Jill/Oscar, the latter taking Janaff off Jill on turn 5.

I'm quite happy to report that Volke managed to get two value steals in - the Silver Lance from one of the Generals after Jill lured him into using his Javelin, and the Physic staff (not the Mend, but eh) from the priest. And speaking of Physic staves, Soren reached C staves on this map.

A six-turn clear means that the enemy reinforcements didn't really do anything. The horsies spawning at our own starting location didn't reach anybody, and there's a group of five Paladins spawing in the southwest corner on turn 6, which is to say that they didn't get to act at all. One of them drops an Armourslayer, which Boyd (with an Iron Bow crit) secured.

Bosskill was done by Marcia, who can't quite kill thorugh Nosferatu healing, and Jill. Oliver had 1% crit on her, or she could've missed two 77%s, so it unfortunately wasn't an entirely safe boss kill, but it turned out fine.

The Team:

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/1.00	  43   19   7  19  19  16  18  11   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/9.57	  42   23*  9  24  24  12  23  15   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	21/7.75	  41   23   3  18  22   9  19   8   (+2 Spd, +2 Mov)

Astrid	21/2.74	  33   18   6  16  22  14  17  13
Kieran	21/3.67	  37   17   4  16  20  11  16   6
Titania  */10.32  41   17   7  18  20  16  15  12   (+2 Str)

Volke	15.41	  30   14   1  16  14   8   8   4
Soren	18/6.12	  39    3  20  23  16  11   9  24
Rhys	18.72	  24    1  19  12  10  13   5  20*
Mordy	4.24	  45   17   2   9   8  11  15   6

Boyd	21/6.37	  50   24   2  21  20  12  15   6
Lethe	5.51	  37   14   5  11  14  16   9   8

Stefan	 */8.33	  base
Muarim	9.35	  base
Makalov 10.01	  base
Oscar	11.88	  31    9   3   9   9   9  12   2

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by gnip

[Uscari]

Impressive, I didn't realize how much easier stage 4 is when you are able to clear it before the southwest paladins spawn in. Clearly having 2 high level flyers served you well on that map.

Did you get the Adept scroll from the sniper next to Oliver? I think that would be a good skill for Jill.

You probably would be right to give the dracoshield to Jill for the reasons you stated, I guess I just felt like if Boyd didn't get that extra defense he might fade into obscurity due to squishiness despite your significant exp investment, but maybe you just have to limit his use to key player phase targets. It's noting that he has 3 more defense than average.

I generally give Kieran bows because it allows him to 1-round Wyvern lords on player phase without having to use forges. It comes in real handy in the later maps, but lances are a reasonable choice as well. Swordmasters are genuinely threatening against Kieran due to his already average avoid and weapon triangle disadvantage, and in maniac mode they send quite a few threatening sword masters your way, the weapon triangle advantage actually makes a big difference due to their high accuracy and avoid.

[ping]

On 5/30/2023 at 1:20 AM, Uscari said:

I generally give Kieran bows because it allows him to 1-round Wyvern lords on player phase without having to use forges. It comes in real handy in the later maps, but lances are a reasonable choice as well. Swordmasters are genuinely threatening against Kieran due to his already average avoid and weapon triangle disadvantage, and in maniac mode they send quite a few threatening sword masters your way, the weapon triangle advantage actually makes a big difference due to their high accuracy and avoid.

Good point about bows, although you do need a D rank or a forged Iron to actually outdamage unforged Steel Axes vs. Wyverns. My main reasoning was that I'm not too likely to actively train his secondary weapon rank, so I went with a weapon type that might have its uses even at E rank. Javelins are E rank, after all, even if Kieran probably won't be able to use Steel for a while, if ever. But with Boyd on the team, it might actually be worthwhile to forge an Iron Bow anyway, which they then could've shared.

[Aircalipoor]

The only good Bow User is Astrid, since she trains it while being unpromoted. Brave Bow on Wyvern Lords is pretty dope and she has no competition.

Weapon EXP is low in this game. Axe users have the benefit that Steel Axes are E-Rang, so the Paladins and Jill are more likely to reach A-Rank once forged Silver Axes are a thing. I also chose Lances on Kieran to be save in case a few Swordmasters swarm him, but I never even get him to D-Rank.

[Uscari]

I guess it's just a matter of playstyles. I don't have issue building weapon ranks, but then I play slowly and take my time. If you're trying to limit the number of turns you take, going for lances to have immediate access to forged javelins is a good play.

[ping]

Chapter 18:

Spoiler

• Support: Marcia/Kieran (B)
• BEXP: Kieran (3.67->4, 53 BEXP) - HP, Spd, Lck, Def, Res
  • Astrid (2.74->3, 20 BEXP) - Str, Spd, Lck
  • Jill (7.75->8, 48  BEXP) - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def, Res
  • Rhys (18.72->19, 37 BEXP) - HP, Mag, Skl, Spd, Lck
  • Volke (15.41->17, 197 BEXP) - +1 HP, +2 Str, +1 Mag, +2 Skl, +2 Spd, +1 Def
• 88 BEXP remaining.
• Skill: Kieran removes Gamble, learns Sol
• Forge: Steel Axe with 16 (+5) Might, 80 (+15) Hit - 3844 gold
• Jill: Dracoshield (20->22 Def)

Ehh, not the most graceful clear. But honestly, I just don't like this map at all. It's literally one big corridor, with *all* of the challenge coming from those long-ranged bastards, although I have to appreciate that they're actually kiting you. The first two aren't much of a problem - Marcia goes just barely into their range, then kills them afterwards, easy enough. But the next stop is three siege tome sages with very similar ranges (two identical, one slightly further back) is really annoying to deal with. I ended up having to rely on Jill dodging multiple siege tomes because I couldn't hack a direct path for Marcia to snipe one of them, which meant that I also couldn't send Jill ahead to snipe another because that would've put her in range of *three* siege tomes... It worked out in the end, not as well as it probably could have (11 turns and no notable steals from Volke), but I'm not really inclined to replay the map over it.

Also, reinforcements from all the way back and all the way past the corridor? On a rout map? Piss off. It wasn't as bad in this particular case because I played slowly enough that the ravens just took one additional turn to clearn up, while the paladins only required Titania, backed by Astrid for the second wave.

On the plus side, the Rolf Training Arc is starting very nicely. (there won't be a Rolf Training Arc, I just needed to disrespect the map when given the chance) This, of course, also means that we're on course for full recruitment, with Shinon joining the bench at the end of the chapter. I had a brief moment of thinking that Rolf might be Actually Useful by baiting a siege tome while also luring the sage in question forward - with a fresh Barrier boost, he actually survives a Meteor or Blizzard hit. But, of course, he only *doesn't* get doubled by the Bolting sages, who I believe do one-shot him. New meta: base level Rolf w/ Speedwing

The Team:

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/4.07	  45   20   7  20  20  17  19  11   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/10.98  43   23*  9  25  25  12  23  15   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	21/9.85	  42   24   3  19  23  10  22   9   (+2 Spd, +2 Def, +2 Mov)
Tanith  */10.60	  base

Astrid	21/7.00	  35   20   8  18  27* 16  20  13
Kieran  21/6.47	  40   19   4  16  22  13  18   7
Titania */10.97	  41   17   7  18  20  16  15  12   (+2 Str)
Mordy	4.24	  45   17   2   9   8  11  15   6

Volke	17.78	  31   16   2  18  16   8   9   4
Rolf	3.26	  19    5   1  10   8   5   8   3
Soren	18/8.12	  39    3  21  25  17  12   9  25
Rhys	19.83	  25    1  20* 13  11  14   5  20*

Reyson	4.10	  22    1  11  12  14  15   2  21
(Shinon */2.06	  33   10   7  16  14   9   9   6 )

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by gnip

[Uscari]

On that map, I find the best course is to take Marcia (or Tanith) and just fly her outside of the walls on the right side, pulling all siege tomes at once. Siege tome ranges go through walls, so you can pull them without fighting anyone else. Her high resistance and avoid, paired with a pure water, means she can drain their tomes at minimal risk without having to deal with any of their friends. Dealing with the siege tomes while advancing normally is just a pain and very tedious.

Apparently you get a Brave Bow from Shinon if you kill him and don't recruit him. So probably better to not even recruit Shinon at all, unless you just have a personal desire to get all the characters or maybe have a niche support plan.

On the plus side, your Astrid is quite formidable. +2 strength and a whopping +5 defense compared to average. Also already capped speed, very nice. She could shape up to be a key unit in the late game, a good candidate for another Occult scroll.

[Aircalipoor]

1 hour ago, Uscari said:

Apparently you get a Brave Bow from Shinon if you kill him and don't recruit him. So probably better to not even recruit Shinon at all, unless you just have a personal desire to get all the characters or maybe have a niche support plan.

Since you need to beat him to recruit him, he drops the Brave Bow. Heck, since this is a route map, you always get the Brave Bow.

 

If you bought a couple of Pure Waters, the Seize Magic can be negated just a little, but its difficult to ascertain that, since its not clear who they target etc.

This map establishes the rest of the game, almost only prepromotes. Your own team shouldn't be unpromoted anymore and has stats around 20 to properly double and 2HKO, not that your teams lacks this.

I would give Astrid Occult just like Kieran, their skills are the only usefull aside from Ike's Aithir, but he likely gets less and less action.

What are you plans on Adept?

Edited June 1, 2023 by Aircalipoor

[Uscari]

1 hour ago, Aircalipoor said:

Since you need to beat him to recruit him, he drops the Brave Bow. Heck, since this is a route map, you always get the Brave Bow.

Item Locations - Serenes Forest

According to the wiki, you only get the Brave Bow on Chapter 18 with the following condition:

"Shinon (if not re-recruited)"

I think talking to him with Rolf actually changes the status of Shinon's Brave Bow from a drop to a non-drop item. Kind of silly though, why would you be punished for putting in more effort.

[Shadow Mir]

13 minutes ago, Uscari said:

Item Locations - Serenes Forest

According to the wiki, you only get the Brave Bow on Chapter 18 with the following condition:

"Shinon (if not re-recruited)"

I think talking to him with Rolf actually changes the status of Shinon's Brave Bow from a drop to a non-drop item. Kind of silly though, why would you be punished for putting in more effort.

That's an error. I've gotten him back, and he has nothing on him because he drops the weapon he had on him.

[ping]

RE: Astrid: I'll probably keep Paragon on her for now, but I'll definitely save an Occult scroll for her. It's not like they're in super high demand. Titania would obviously get Sol, too, but she's less likely to do big enemy phase combat, I think.

RE: Adept: It's probably going to be Ike, I think, for the Adept+Wrath combo against the BK. With my team mostly set up, it shouldn't be an issue to BEXP+Seal Mist to 10/1, and Ike's stats seem to be decent enough, even though his first post-promotion levels were a bit underwhelming. He's at -1 HP, +1 Str, +1 Skl, -1 Spd, +3 Lck, +2 Def right now.

[ping]

Chapter 19:

Spoiler

• BEXP: Marcia (10.98->11, 4 BEXP) - Skl*, Spd, Lck, Res
  • Titania (10.97->11, 7 BEXP) - Str, Skl, Spd, Def
  • Rhys (19.83->20, 23 BEXP) - HP, Def
  • Kieran (6.47->7, 96 BEXP) - Str, Spd, Def, Res
  • Jill (9.85->10, 32 BEXP) - Spd, Def
  • Volke (17.78->18, 28 BEXP) - HP, Str, Skl, Spd
• 33 BEXP remaining.
• Support: Marcia/Tanith (C), Rolf/Shinon (C), Shinon/Gatrie (C)
• Forge: Steel Axe with 16 (+5) Might, 80 (+15) Hit - 3844 gold

Tanith immediately goes into Naesala's range, protected by the Full Guard and a Ward spell and pushed ahead two tiles by Mordecai. Jill also charges ahead, boosted by Reyson, to kill the closest ballista, but she can just canto out of Naesala's reach. Janaff talks to him on turn 2 (and manages to finish off a Wyvern that Tanith weakened on enemy phase), Reyson is in range to be talked to on enemy phase, and three ravens are immediately killed by the Daein troops. The rest manage to escape, though.

After the first turn (which wasn't 100% safe, I'm quite certain, but Tanith and Jill, who probably both needed some dodges, got some dodges), the map is pretty straightforward. I'm rather surprised that the boss still doesn't move on Maniac, actually, which makes him pretty much a lame duck who's just waiting to be one-rounded by... whoever, really, Astrid in this case, since she had 93 disp. hit on Homasa with her ol' reliable Steel Bow forge.

I was a bit surprised seeing Ike as the MVP, but I suppose he did earn about 100 XP this map, which is a fairly big piece of the overall very small pie. Mostly self-improvement, though, he hasn't really caught up with the higher-leveled, more mobile, more BEXP-massaged, 1-2-range using folks. Doesn't help that I still haven't made a single sword forge, of course, but it's not too hard to find kills from him regardless and other units can do more actual work with their forges.

Also, I'm filthy rich now. I'd forge a Thunder +5 for Soren in celebration if his Spd wasn't so atrocious.

The Team:

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/5.04	  46   20   7  21  21  17  19  11   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/11.26  43   23*  9  26* 26  13  23  16   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	21/10.97  42   24   3  19  24  10  23   9   (+2 Spd, +2 Def, +2 Mov)
Tanith   */11.01  33   17  10  19  24  19  16  14

Astrid	21/8.96	  35   21   8  19  27* 17  20  14
Kieran	21/7.53	  40   20   4  16  23  13  19   8
Titania  */11.46  41   18   7  19  21  16  16  12   (+2 Str)
Boyd	21/6.78	  50   24   2  21  20  12  15   6

Soren	18/8.65	  39    3  21  25  17  12   9  25
Rhys	20.72	  26    1  20* 13  11  14   6  20*

Mordy	4.34	  45   17   2   9   8  11  15   6
Janaff  8.23	  39   13   5  15  17  16  11  10   (base)
Reyson  4.60	  22    1  11  12  14  15   2  21
(Volke  18/1.00	  34   19   3  22  19   8  11   6 )

Volke got three Str/Spd BEXP levels the last two chapters, so his thieving stats aren't too much worse than that of a 20/1 Volke are supposed to be. Unfortunately, he hadn't hit his Spd growths previously, so he's two points behind his 20/1 average there, but his HP, Str, and Def are all on par.

[Aircalipoor]

I never trained Volke. Damage output is weak and his base stats+promotion allow him to survive a hit in chapter 21. No need to deploy him afterwards.

The only remaining chapters with chests are 21 (22 is skipped) and 27. Chest Keyes exists.

Stealing in the endgame doesn't seem appealing to me. The first 2-3 Physics staves are all you need, you can also steal Mend staves before chapter 18 if you want to save money. Stealing Seize magic is a hassle and not worth it.

[Uscari]

Tanith is so good on this map, her high speed, high magic, and sonic sword make quick work of the wyverns, even bringing the wyvern lord to near death after 1 exchange. She is perfect for clearing a path to meet Naesala.

Having said that, I rarely go in right away to recruit Naesala on turn 1, especially with a full guard, it's a little risky and the worst part is if you lose Tanith, you lose the full guard as well. Ultimately this isn't an ironman run so it doesn't really matter, but still. I tend to send Jill or Marcia to the right side unequipped to distract the crows so I can take my time clearing the field to pull Naesala safely.

I think you are wise to level Volke, he comes in very handy around this point in the game.

3 hours ago, Aircalipoor said:

I never trained Volke. Damage output is weak and his base stats+promotion allow him to survive a hit in chapter 21. No need to deploy him afterwards.

The only remaining chapters with chests are 21 (22 is skipped) and 27. Chest Keyes exists.

Stealing in the endgame doesn't seem appealing to me. The first 2-3 Physics staves are all you need, you can also steal Mend staves before chapter 18 if you want to save money. Stealing Seize magic is a hassle and not worth it.

His stealing alone is worth leveling him. In my experience you need all the Physic staves you can get not just for heals, but to level your sages faster. Stealing siege magic is a hassle but absolutely worth it. It allows you to deal with particular types of enemies in the endgame so much easier if you have a good mage. Even if you don't level a strong mage, just bringing Calil at base stats with Soren each with a siege tome, followed up by a dance with Reyson can snipe pretty much any enemy from safety.