Does Crimson Flower... make sense compared to the rest of Three Houses? SPOILERS, obviously.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

15 hours ago, lenticular said:

My assumption -- and I haven't examined this one, so if you want to argue that it's unjustified then please go ahead -- is that Edelgard is doing all the stuff with dissolving the Church alongside the war. So I don't view it as an either/or thing so much as a one/both thing. I find it hard to imagine that Edelgard is just letting all the existing priests and churches carry on as before, stirring up support and sympathy for the nation's war enemies. At best, I can see some sort of Protestant Reformed Church of Sothis taking the place of the previous Church of Seiros and anyone who refused to convert being put into internment camps.

So, I don't see the bolded part happening, for a few reasons:

1. The name "Sothis" itself is a closely guarded secret, one that only becomes known to Teach because Rhea reveals it to them. It's unlikely that most commoners know it, since Sothis is already called "the Goddess" or "the Progenitor God". I may be misremembering, but I can't even recall if Edelgard herself expresses knowledge of the name "Sothis".

2. At one point (I don't remember exactly when, sorry), Edelgard speaks critically of "the false Goddess". She can't be referring to Rhea here - Rhea never calls herself a Goddess, nor demands that the people of Fódlan treat her as such. Were she referring to Rhea, a moniker like "the false Prophet" or "the Archbishop of lies" would be far more suitable. Instead, she must be referring to "the Goddess" (i.e. Sothis) whom the Church of Seiros worships. Now, it's possible that she's fine with the Goddess abstractly, and is only calling the way she is represented by the Church to be "false". But I expect any "replacement faith" to at least change how the central deity is referred to.

3. Interning the recalcitrant faithful would be a major expense. Even if, at war's start, only 20% of the population were regular churchgoing believers. And of those, three-fourths "convert" (whether they mean it or not). That's still 5% of the Imperial population put into a camp. And you need to figure out who's guarding them, and how to get food to them. These are internal expenses that Edelgard can't afford, if she wants to focus on her war effort.

What do I think is more likely? Simple - individual church bodies can continue operating, they're just cut off ecumenically from the Central Church. If a church is found to be "aiding the enemy", they'll face severe reprisals (that's where imprisonment or expulsion would come in). But otherwise, people are allowed to continue practicing their faith. Kind of in the vein of how "atheist states", like the USSR and the PRC, "managed" their religions. It's repressive, but not to the point of impracticality. 

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

True. The Church didn't just kill Cristoph but also slandered him as being complicit in regicide. From that lens it makes a lot of sense that Lonato snaps and turns extremely hostile to the church.

Do they ever establish the truth of Christophe's involvement (or lack thereof)? Because it's not slander if what the Church is saying is true.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

And how long do you think they would have lasted if the Kingdom didn't protect them? They were routed at Garrak Mach. They had one strong hold and they lost it.

Hey, I've played enough Rout maps to know that everyone is supposed to die in them. Yet every named Knight of Seiros survived the attack, on all routes. Doesn't seem like Edelgard did a great job of it...

On non-CF routes, my suspicion is that, once Rhea was defeated and unconscious, Edelgard and her core allies (excluding any Slithers) fled with the Archbishop in tow. The Slithers and remaining Imperial troops still caused some trouble, but eventually made their own retreat. That explains why the Empire didn't hold onto Garreg Mach, despite its tactical position. The battle was still a "loss" for the Church, because they lost Rhea, as well as the Professor she put her trust in. And the Church didn't hold onto it, because Seteth was distraught by the search for both of them (which he spectacularly failed at).

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, I don't see the bolded part happening, for a few reasons:

1. The name "Sothis" itself is a closely guarded secret, one that only becomes known to Teach because Rhea reveals it to them. It's unlikely that most commoners know it, since Sothis is already called "the Goddess" or "the Progenitor God". I may be misremembering, but I can't even recall if Edelgard herself expresses knowledge of the name "Sothis".

2. At one point (I don't remember exactly when, sorry), Edelgard speaks critically of "the false Goddess". She can't be referring to Rhea here - Rhea never calls herself a Goddess, nor demands that the people of Fódlan treat her as such. Were she referring to Rhea, a moniker like "the false Prophet" or "the Archbishop of lies" would be far more suitable. Instead, she must be referring to "the Goddess" (i.e. Sothis) whom the Church of Seiros worships. Now, it's possible that she's fine with the Goddess abstractly, and is only calling the way she is represented by the Church to be "false". But I expect any "replacement faith" to at least change how the central deity is referred to.

3. Interning the recalcitrant faithful would be a major expense. Even if, at war's start, only 20% of the population were regular churchgoing believers. And of those, three-fourths "convert" (whether they mean it or not). That's still 5% of the Imperial population put into a camp. And you need to figure out who's guarding them, and how to get food to them. These are internal expenses that Edelgard can't afford, if she wants to focus on her war effort.

What do I think is more likely? Simple - individual church bodies can continue operating, they're just cut off ecumenically from the Central Church. If a church is found to be "aiding the enemy", they'll face severe reprisals (that's where imprisonment or expulsion would come in). But otherwise, people are allowed to continue practicing their faith. Kind of in the vein of how "atheist states", like the USSR and the PRC, "managed" their religions. It's repressive, but not to the point of impracticality. 

Do they ever establish the truth of Christophe's involvement (or lack thereof)? Because it's not slander if what the Church is saying is true.

Hey, I've played enough Rout maps to know that everyone is supposed to die in them. Yet every named Knight of Seiros survived the attack, on all routes. Doesn't seem like Edelgard did a great job of it...

That's Fire Emblem's definition, but really it means a forced retreat.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

On non-CF routes, my suspicion is that, once Rhea was defeated and unconscious, Edelgard and her core allies (excluding any Slithers) fled with the Archbishop in tow. The Slithers and remaining Imperial troops still caused some trouble, but eventually made their own retreat. That explains why the Empire didn't hold onto Garreg Mach, despite its tactical position. The battle was still a "loss" for the Church, because they lost Rhea, as well as the Professor she put her trust in. And the Church didn't hold onto it, because Seteth was distraught by the search for both of them (which he spectacularly failed at).

The fact that no one held Garreg Mach in the five year stalemate and that it was just sitting there unoccupied is probably the least realistic aspect of the story. Like, even if your headcanon of Edelgard just grabbing Rhea it is meant to be the case, it is still meant to be a defensible central location of tactical importance isn't it? But even Pallardo would rather hang out in the town than set himself up in a giant ass mansion.

[Acacia Sgt]

41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The fact that no one held Garreg Mach in the five year stalemate and that it was just sitting there unoccupied is probably the least realistic aspect of the story. Like, even if your headcanon of Edelgard just grabbing Rhea it is meant to be the case, it is still meant to be a defensible central location of tactical importance isn't it? But even Pallardo would rather hang out in the town than set himself up in a giant ass mansion.

It may be defensible, but not exactly good for setting up a supply/logistics route. Hence why any invasions (in either direction) are through the Empire-Kingdom or Empire-Alliance borders. Much easier for armies to march through than having go up and down the mountains. So it's actually not that tactical. The only reason to hold it would be for symbolic purposes, which is why Edelgard did. In the other routes with Rhea captured, there's no need... until the other factions decide to reoccupy it, hence why the second assault.

I can only guess that since no one was bothering to come knocking, Pallardo didn't felt the need. Taking DLC into account, the Abyss wasn't abandoned, so Pallardo likely kept his distance too, just in case.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

With half of the great Noble houses of the Alliance roundtable being pro Imperials they could easily deadlock the Alliance into neutrality,

That is fair, getting Alliance help would definitely the most up in the air

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

and the entire western half of the Kingdom are traitors just itching to depose the rest of their country, and seems to have been so since at least the times of Dimitri's father. 

But Faergus is just too indebted for me to see them refusing the Church's request. The Church was critical in suppressing those western rebels in Dimitri's time of regency, and the Holy Kingdom has always relied on the church's authority to legitimize their rule.

 

7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

There's also the implication that the loyalty of a lot of nobles towards the church is only surface level and that they'd turn on the church if it meant more power for themselves.

With Edelgard's stated reforms clearly reducing the power of many crested nobles, something a lot of these lords would get a better chance to see without the fog of war in this alternate scenario, I don't think that self interest would harm the church's chances of getting currently powerful crested allies.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

And how long do you think they would have lasted if the Kingdom didn't protect them?

Probably just as long, as they would have coerced some other lord into providing them a new stronghold, or simply taken a new fortress from one of the innumerable lords that are far weaker than they are.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

They were routed at Garrak Mach. They had one strong hold and they lost it

They lost that fortress only thanks to the element of surprise, and despite the loss of Garreg Mach were still fighting Edelgard 5 years into the war despite that.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Rhea had no intention of ever attacking Edelgard.

A conjecture which runs counter to how the Church are portrayed in White Cloud.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

In Three Hopes she literally doesn't even know why Edelgard is attacking her.

As someone that hasn't, and due to my dislike of the gameplay of the first FE Warriors game, wont ever play Three Hopes, I lack the context to know what Rhea meant by that, especially with much you distort the story to make the Church seem like harmless pacifists. There are plenty of things that could have been meant by this like:

Did Rhea simply mean she was too out of touch to understand why a human ever would want to fight to reform things instead of letting the motherly Nabateans rule over everyone?

Did Rhea means she simply mean she couldn't understand why anyone would bother attacking her, when Rhea is too powerful to ever be defeated?

Did she simply not know about Edelgard's ideas about reforming Fodlan yet, and was asking what Edelgard's causus belli was out of ignorance?

Did she simply not know why Edelgard would not give herself up to the church's just execution, instead of fighting for her survival?

Did she simply not know why Edelgard wouldn't wait until Rhea had sneak attacked the Empire before attacking the Church?

 

This brief summary could have multiple means depending on the context, and maybe it is as simple as Rhea not knowing why Edelgard and Rhea would have a reason to fight, although even then this belief could be cause by (or simply be) amajor retcon, or modification to the world to begin with.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

You only have the right to defend yourself when someone tries to attack you.

...Rhea orders Edelgard's death before Edelgard makes her surprise attack on Garreg Mach. Most people would consider a credible threat like that enough to justify defending themselves.

 

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

You don't have the right to defend yourself from someone who isn't a threat.

What are you talking about, the Church are a threat. The Knight of Serios are the best trained military force on Fodlan (there is a reason all the nations of Fodlan send their heirs to learn the ways of war from the Knights of Serios), with the most experience coordinating with other military forces. They are a standing army, and while smaller than an army you might try to muster, it lets them strike more rapidly if you let them take the offensive. Their stronghold is one of the most strategic positions in Fodland if left alone. They continue fighting on for 5 years after losing that stronghold. One of the routes even has you lead the church forces into winning this conflict despite that early defeat. Heck, Rhea is personally the final boss of multiple routes.

 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

The church wasn't invading anyone.

A factually inaccurate statement, see Lord Lonato's invaded home of Gaspard for the most recent example, see the King of Liberation's Kingdom in the north for the largest example.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That is fair, getting Alliance help would definitely the most up in the air

 

But Faergus is just too indebted for me to see them refusing the Church's request. The Church was critical in suppressing those western rebels in Dimitri's time of regency, and the Holy Kingdom has always relied on the church's authority to legitimize their rule.

 

With Edelgard's stated reforms clearly reducing the power of many crested nobles, something a lot of these lords would get a better chance to see without the fog of war in this alternate scenario, I don't think that self interest would harm the church's chances of getting currently powerful crested allies.

 

Probably just as long, as they would have coerced some other lord into providing them a new stronghold, or simply taken a new fortress from one of the innumerable lords that are far weaker than they are.

 

They lost that fortress only thanks to the element of surprise, and despite the loss of Garreg Mach were still fighting Edelgard 5 years into the war despite that.

 

A conjecture which runs counter to how the Church are portrayed in White Cloud.

 

As someone that hasn't, and due to my dislike of the gameplay of the first FE Warriors game, wont ever play Three Hopes, I lack the context to know what Rhea meant by that, especially with much you distort the story to make the Church seem like harmless pacifists. There are plenty of things that could have been meant by this like:

Did Rhea simply mean she was too out of touch to understand why a human ever would want to fight to reform things instead of letting the motherly Nabateans rule over everyone?

Did Rhea means she simply mean she couldn't understand why anyone would bother attacking her, when Rhea is too powerful to ever be defeated?

Did she simply not know about Edelgard's ideas about reforming Fodlan yet, and was asking what Edelgard's causus belli was out of ignorance?

Did she simply not know why Edelgard would not give herself up to the church's just execution, instead of fighting for her survival?

Did she simply not know why Edelgard wouldn't wait until Rhea had sneak attacked the Empire before attacking the Church?

 

This brief summary could have multiple means depending on the context, and maybe it is as simple as Rhea not knowing why Edelgard and Rhea would have a reason to fight, although even then this belief could be cause by (or simply be) amajor retcon, or modification to the world to begin with.

 

...Rhea orders Edelgard's death before Edelgard makes her surprise attack on Garreg Mach. Most people would consider a credible threat like that enough to justify defending themselves.

 

What are you talking about, the Church are a threat. The Knight of Serios are the best trained military force on Fodlan (there is a reason all the nations of Fodlan send their heirs to learn the ways of war from the Knights of Serios), with the most experience coordinating with other military forces. They are a standing army, and while smaller than an army you might try to muster, it lets them strike more rapidly if you let them take the offensive. Their stronghold is one of the most strategic positions in Fodland if left alone. They continue fighting on for 5 years after losing that stronghold. One of the routes even has you lead the church forces into winning this conflict despite that early defeat. Heck, Rhea is personally the final boss of multiple routes.

 

A factually inaccurate statement, see Lord Lonato's invaded home of Gaspard for the most recent example, see the King of Liberation's Kingdom in the north for the largest example.

You're wrong about pretty much every one of those points but we've been over them a million times. So let's try another soon on this. If the USA launched a surprise attack on Saudi Arabia in the morning would you celebrate it?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

...Rhea orders Edelgard's death before Edelgard makes her surprise attack on Garreg Mach. Most people would consider a credible threat like that enough to justify defending themselves.

Are you referring to the one in Chapter 11 or 12?

[Eltosian Kadath]

19 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If the USA launched a surprise attack on Saudi Arabia in the morning would you celebrate it?

How is this weird what-about-ism relevant?

Sigh, whatever. How I would feel about it would be fact specific, because I do not live in a fantasy world where everything is black and white with morality instantly determinable by a single sentence. I could imagine scenarios where I would, and far, far more where I wouldn't, and if you literally mean the cartoonish scenario where nothing else is changed, then no I wouldn't.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Are you referring to the one in Chapter 11 or 12?

After the fairly scuffed heist of chapter 11 Rhea orders Edelgard's death, declaring that she will set the entire Church's armies against her, before Edelgard's surprise attack on Garreg Mach in chapter 12.

[Jotari]

19 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

How is this weird what-about-ism relevant?

Sigh, whatever. How I would feel about it would be fact specific, because I do not live in a fantasy world where everything is black and white with morality instantly determinable by a single sentence. I could imagine scenarios where I would, and far, far more where I wouldn't, and if you literally mean the cartoonish scenario where nothing else is changed, then no I wouldn't.

If it were a surprise attack launched by a leader who has just seized control of the government and was framing it as a way to "liberate" the people from an "evil" idealogy that has involved itself with politics for centuries. Ie exactly the Edelgard situation but with real countries and real people.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Eltosian Kadath]

You really are trying to justify some righteous fury against me aren't you...

I am tempted to just call it quits here as being too off topic, but you do pretend this could be relevant, so I will indulge this nonsense one more time.

I probably wont continue if you continue trying to contrive a justification for hating me enough to form a lynch mob.

 

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ie exactly the Edelgard situation but with real countries and real people.

No, it really isn't.

 

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If it were a surprise attack launched by a leader who has just seized control of the government

As first thing I would probably oppose is someone just seizing control of the government, without some input from my vote. Edelgard's takeover has far more legitimacy attached to it as the rightful heir of a hereditary monarchy.

Now to play devils advocate a little, and suppose a more similar scenario, that the President stepped down allowing the Vice President to take over, that would be far more similar, and be far less instantly egregious (although I will have some pointed question about the President stepping down).

 

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

was framing it as a way to liberate the people from an evil idealogy that has involved itself with politics for centuries.

This is where things hit a snag with regards to your attempt to link these two scenarios, as I really can't think of an "evil ideology" that would both resemble the politics of Fodlan, and the politics between the USA and Saudi Arabia.

Ignoring how this attempted analogy immediately breaks down here, the specifics of what the "evil ideology" is would be important, for instance If that "evil ideology" is the mass genocide of a group of people, and there is some credible proof of Saudi Arabia enacting that, I could see myself applauding that quick and decisive action taken to save people (don't get me wrong, there are definitely other factors that could put a wrench in that as well). If that "evil ideology" was something like Islam, or literally just a vague nondescript "evil ideology", no I wouldn't.

The analogy breaks down even further with even the slightest bit of context included. The issue is politically the USA fits the Church far better than it does the Empire of Adrestia. The USA's policing the globe nonsense is far more analogous to how the Church behaves militarily in Fodlan, I don't think either really have the influence over the politics of their neighbors that the Church does over Adrestia's, but the USA is far closer by trying to exert that kind of influecn at time, but aren't very successful at it, and one could perhaps make an argument with the influence of OPEC in the other direction, but that is a stretch, and far too indirect to really match. The presence of such a desired resource as oil also complicates things a fair bit, as it makes justifications for war in the region far more suspect. I could probably keep going, but I tire of this

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

You really are trying to justify some righteous fury against me aren't you...

I am tempted to just call it quits here as being too off topic, but you do pretend this could be relevant, so I will indulge this nonsense one more time.

I probably wont continue if you continue trying to contrive a justification for hating me enough to form a lynch mob.

 

No, it really isn't.

 

As first thing I would probably oppose is someone just seizing control of the government, without some input from my vote. Edelgard's takeover has far more legitimacy attached to it as the rightful heir of a hereditary monarchy.

But Edelgard's entire policy is to dismantle the hereditary heirarchy. She doesn't gain her leigitimacy from the monarchy. She gains it from "the most capable leader is the one who should lead, and that just happens to be me."

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

This is where things hit a snag with regards to your attempt to link these two scenarios, as I really can't think of an "evil ideology" that would both resemble the politics of Fodlan, and the politics between the USA and Saudi Arabia.

Ignoring how this attempted analogy immediately breaks down here, the specifics of what the "evil ideology" is would be important, for instance If that "evil ideology" is the mass genocide of a group of people, and there is some credible proof of Saudi Arabia enacting that, I could see myself applauding that quick and decisive action taken to save people (don't get me wrong, there are definitely other factors that could put a wrench in that as well). If that "evil ideology" was something like Islam, or literally just a vague nondescript "evil ideology", no I wouldn't.

But Rhea hasn't committed any genocides. As far as her evil goes it's just backing up feudal hierarchy with divine support (which Saudi Arabia is doing itself with an absolute monarch and an aristocracy).

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The analogy breaks down even further with even the slightest bit of context included. The issue is politically the USA fits the Church far better than it does the Empire of Adrestia. The USA's policing the globe nonsense is far more analogous to how the Church behaves militarily in Fodlan, I don't think either really have the influence over the politics of their neighbors that the Church does over Adrestia's, but the USA is far closer by trying to exert that kind of influecn at time, but aren't very successful at it, and one could perhaps make an argument with the influence of OPEC in the other direction, but that is a stretch, and far too indirect to really match. The presence of such a desired resource as oil also complicates things a fair bit, as it makes justifications for war in the region far more suspect. I could probably keep going, but I tire of this

 

So Edelgard isn't policing Fodlan by invading and then annexing the places that don't agree with her ideal society?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Jotari

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

1. The name "Sothis" itself is a closely guarded secret, one that only becomes known to Teach because Rhea reveals it to them. It's unlikely that most commoners know it, since Sothis is already called "the Goddess" or "the Progenitor God". I may be misremembering, but I can't even recall if Edelgard herself expresses knowledge of the name "Sothis".

2. At one point (I don't remember exactly when, sorry), Edelgard speaks critically of "the false Goddess". She can't be referring to Rhea here - Rhea never calls herself a Goddess, nor demands that the people of Fódlan treat her as such. Were she referring to Rhea, a moniker like "the false Prophet" or "the Archbishop of lies" would be far more suitable. Instead, she must be referring to "the Goddess" (i.e. Sothis) whom the Church of Seiros worships. Now, it's possible that she's fine with the Goddess abstractly, and is only calling the way she is represented by the Church to be "false". But I expect any "replacement faith" to at least change how the central deity is referred to.

hmmm, maybe Edelgards oh so secret emprah book knows about Sothis as the og goddess and is thus referring to Seiros as false goddess? I seem to remember something about Seiros setting herself up as the prophet of the goddess.

 

[Samz707]

A theory I've seen around (and I can't remember if the game confirms it as it's been several years) is that Edelgard doesn't believe in the Goddess due to her being experimented on, with the goddess never coming to rescue her or her siblings.

 

[Jotari]

46 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

hmmm, maybe Edelgards oh so secret emprah book knows about Sothis as the og goddess and is thus referring to Seiros as false goddess? I seem to remember something about Seiros setting herself up as the prophet of the goddess.

 

Edelgard as the Flame Emperor does have a strange reaction to Thales calling Nemesis a thief. It's hard to describe. The line is "Thief? Hm" which makes it seem inquisitive, but the voice action is more like "Huh" as if she doesn't believe him or just finds it a strange turn of phrase. Either way it suggests that the information Edelgard got from her father doesn't include any information on what Nemesis did to Sothis. On the other hand, she must know where the relic weapons comes from. She raids the holy tomb for that reason and manages to create Aymr. So why would she be surprised that the guy who literally stole the bones from people's flesh and ripped out their hearts would be called a thief?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Edelgard as the Flame Emperor does have a strange reaction to Thales calling Nemesis a thief. It's hard to describe. The line is "Thief? Hm" which makes it seem inquisitive, but the voice action is more like "Huh" as if she doesn't believe him or just finds it a strange turn of phrase. Either way it suggests that the information Edelgard got from her father doesn't include any information on what Nemesis did to Sothis. On the other hand, she must know where the relic weapons comes from. She raids the holy tomb for that reason and manages to create Aymr. So why would she be surprised that the guy who literally stole the bones from people's flesh and ripped out their hearts would be called a thief?

I mean, going by what the Adrestian Emperors could have written in there... Nemesis seems more like a rival, an opposing king, sure enough with his special glowy sword but not much reason for Wilhelm or any of his successors to call him a thief, unless for reasons of legitimacy. I don´t know/wouldn´t be certain that Wilhelm knew of Nemesis meatcarving tendencies, and it´d also be kind of weird for Seiros to tell Wilhelm "anyway that guy killed god and made a sword out of her 😞"

As for Aymr, I think with it being repaired with Agarthium the implication is that the Slitherers made it for her?

I honestly can´t tell from what I´m reading, but Wilhelm should have lived close enough to the times to still know of Sothis? Or at the very least it´d be kinda weird to just... not know the name of the deity that 1) wipes out a seemingly not insignificant amount of people and 2) tries to rebuild or "heal" everything. Sure she goes to sleep for any amount of time but also the destruction nessecary to completely wipe out any and all memory of Sothis herself, I would presume whorshipped as the prime deity of the Fodlandian Pantheon (if such a thing existed and it isn´t monotheism) at the time Wilhelm lived seems unlikely? 

And I would assume a crest stone and a dragons heart would look very different - crest stones notably don´t seem to have a place for blood flow. Metodey distinctly refers to the crest stones themselves, the bones seem more like eh it´s here, take em too. And she did potentially watch a guy transform in a Lance of Ruin fuelled monster, though reading the script of Miklans chapter it sounds like she was aware ahead of it.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I mean, going by what the Adrestian Emperors could have written in there... Nemesis seems more like a rival, an opposing king, sure enough with his special glowy sword but not much reason for Wilhelm or any of his successors to call him a thief, unless for reasons of legitimacy. I don´t know/wouldn´t be certain that Wilhelm knew of Nemesis meatcarving tendencies, and it´d also be kind of weird for Seiros to tell Wilhelm "anyway that guy killed god and made a sword out of her 😞"

I'd find it weird for her not to tell him. Like, they were meant to be pretty close allies, right? You don't think she'd confide in him her trauma and give him a clearer idea as to exactly why she's fighting?

14 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

As for Aymr, I think with it being repaired with Agarthium the implication is that the Slitherers made it for her?

They definitely made it for her, as in Three Hopes she doesn't canonically ever get Aymr as a result of betraying the Agarthans early on (the player can still get it, but it's more via a late game chapter prize disconnected from the narrative).

14 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

And I would assume a crest stone and a dragons heart would look very different - crest stones notably don´t seem to have a place for blood flow. Metodey distinctly refers to the crest stones themselves, the bones seem more like eh it´s here, take em too. And she did potentially watch a guy transform in a Lance of Ruin fuelled monster, though reading the script of Miklans chapter it sounds like she was aware ahead of it.

People turning into  crest beasts does seem to be common knowledge. At least among the nobility. I think they do explain it to Byleth for the sake of the player eve though Byleth as a traveling mercenary should know these things, so perhaps it's not something a commoner would have any cause to discover but anyone actually around people with crests are duefully informed.

[Acacia Sgt]

7 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

After the fairly scuffed heist of chapter 11 Rhea orders Edelgard's death, declaring that she will set the entire Church's armies against her, before Edelgard's surprise attack on Garreg Mach in chapter 12.

Then Rhea's actions are not preemtive, they're reactive. It wasn't just a heist, Edelgard brought actual soldiers, with the intention to kill if needed. Also, this is where she outs herself as the Flame Emperor, also outing herself as being in cahoots with the people behind stuff like the Remire Tragedy. Lastly, in Rhea's eyes, she's gonna do the very thing Nemesis did, and it's a personal matter since it's the remains of her people. So just because Edelgard failed means she gets to go unpunished? Rhea certainly doesn't think so.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd find it weird for her not to tell him. Like, they were meant to be pretty close allies, right? You don't think she'd confide in him her trauma and give him a clearer idea as to exactly why she's fighting?

I think it´d be supremely stupid telling even just the higher echelons of allied leadership what amounts to essentially "Nemesis killed most of the gods of this land and is using their spines to fight you. Also, he´s using my mom, the literal creator of my race, as a swordwhip."

As far as Wilhelm + successors and Seiros relationship goes... she does declare herself a Prophetess, fighting against a Nemesis that brings darkness over Fodlan or something to that effect and she can back her prophetess schtick up by becoming a big fucken dragon. Good enough if you ask me. 

As per her S-support she had 2 motivations and that´s keepin the peace (for Sothis to take over at some point) and reviving Sothis, the latter House Hraesvelg doesn´t need to know and the former... she did legitimize his house as the founders/rulers of the new Empire.

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

People turning into  crest beasts does seem to be common knowledge. At least among the nobility. I think they do explain it to Byleth for the sake of the player eve though Byleth as a traveling mercenary should know these things, so perhaps it's not something a commoner would have any cause to discover but anyone actually around people with crests are duefully informed.

Hm, the Tower of Black Winds script is ambiguos I´d say - it´s clear with Rheas quote about the commoners, but Sylvains reaction to Miklans finished transformation is kinda... y´know. It would also require the crest-having parts of the nobility to keep silent about the negative consequences of a crest-less person wielding a relic, unless Miklan specifcally doesn´t care, but at the same time he seems a bit surprised about getting sludged.

Then again it´s Sylvain. Bro don´t pay attention if it ain´t a woman.

The wiki also has this:

Spoiler

Tomas: Stories of misfortune have followed the Heroes' Relics since ancient times.
(The librarian had been near Byleth & Claude all along, and they're startled by his sudden appearance.)
Claude: Tomas! You've caught me by surprise. That's not easy to do. Though I suppose I should've expected to see our librarian in his library.
Tomas: I am sorry to intrude. I simply heard you speaking of the Heroes' Relics. I can tell you more about them, if you'd like.
Tomas: The story goes that Nemesis was corrupted by evil because of the Sword of the Creator. Other Heroes also lost themselves by continuing to use the Relics...transforming into Black Beasts with twisted souls.
Tomas: There used to be a great many records regarding the dark history of the Relics.
Claude: Used to be?
Tomas: They have been destroyed, across all of Fódlan. Stripped from their shelves, including those that resided at this very library.
Claude: You make it sound like the church is covering up the truth. But now that you mention it, Rhea was very specific about not wanting anyone to find out what happened at Conand Tower.
Claude: Hey Tomas... why are you telling us all this?
Tomas: It seemed like you were searching for answers about the Relics. What is a librarian if not a guide in the search for knowledge. And not only have you been searching, but you have been doing so through the night. I would suggest you stop before the knights notice.
Tomas: And that is enough meddling for today. Please excuse me.

 

 

 

Now that I think about it...... why does Sothis know how to fight the Beasts? She wasn´t... alive? conscious? when she and her people were repurposed into these weapons. so I´d assume it´s her first time fighting these two, unless she gives us strats that worked against her own kin.

[Samz707]

40 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I think it´d be supremely stupid telling even just the higher echelons of allied leadership what amounts to essentially "Nemesis killed most of the gods of this land and is using their spines to fight you. Also, he´s using my mom, the literal creator of my race, as a swordwhip."

As far as Wilhelm + successors and Seiros relationship goes... she does declare herself a Prophetess, fighting against a Nemesis that brings darkness over Fodlan or something to that effect and she can back her prophetess schtick up by becoming a big fucken dragon. Good enough if you ask me. 

As per her S-support she had 2 motivations and that´s keepin the peace (for Sothis to take over at some point) and reviving Sothis, the latter House Hraesvelg doesn´t need to know and the former... she did legitimize his house as the founders/rulers of the new Empire.

Hm, the Tower of Black Winds script is ambiguos I´d say - it´s clear with Rheas quote about the commoners, but Sylvains reaction to Miklans finished transformation is kinda... y´know. It would also require the crest-having parts of the nobility to keep silent about the negative consequences of a crest-less person wielding a relic, unless Miklan specifcally doesn´t care, but at the same time he seems a bit surprised about getting sludged.

Then again it´s Sylvain. Bro don´t pay attention if it ain´t a woman.

The wiki also has this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Tomas: Stories of misfortune have followed the Heroes' Relics since ancient times.
(The librarian had been near Byleth & Claude all along, and they're startled by his sudden appearance.)
Claude: Tomas! You've caught me by surprise. That's not easy to do. Though I suppose I should've expected to see our librarian in his library.
Tomas: I am sorry to intrude. I simply heard you speaking of the Heroes' Relics. I can tell you more about them, if you'd like.
Tomas: The story goes that Nemesis was corrupted by evil because of the Sword of the Creator. Other Heroes also lost themselves by continuing to use the Relics...transforming into Black Beasts with twisted souls.
Tomas: There used to be a great many records regarding the dark history of the Relics.
Claude: Used to be?
Tomas: They have been destroyed, across all of Fódlan. Stripped from their shelves, including those that resided at this very library.
Claude: You make it sound like the church is covering up the truth. But now that you mention it, Rhea was very specific about not wanting anyone to find out what happened at Conand Tower.
Claude: Hey Tomas... why are you telling us all this?
Tomas: It seemed like you were searching for answers about the Relics. What is a librarian if not a guide in the search for knowledge. And not only have you been searching, but you have been doing so through the night. I would suggest you stop before the knights notice.
Tomas: And that is enough meddling for today. Please excuse me.

 

 

 

Now that I think about it...... why does Sothis know how to fight the Beasts? She wasn´t... alive? conscious? when she and her people were repurposed into these weapons. so I´d assume it´s her first time fighting these two, unless she gives us strats that worked against her own kin.

The same mechanics are used for fighting Dragon Rhea in CF.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

I think it´d be supremely stupid telling even just the higher echelons of allied leadership what amounts to essentially "Nemesis killed most of the gods of this land and is using their spines to fight you. Also, he´s using my mom, the literal creator of my race, as a swordwhip."

As far as Wilhelm + successors and Seiros relationship goes... she does declare herself a Prophetess, fighting against a Nemesis that brings darkness over Fodlan or something to that effect and she can back her prophetess schtick up by becoming a big fucken dragon. Good enough if you ask me. 

As per her S-support she had 2 motivations and that´s keepin the peace (for Sothis to take over at some point) and reviving Sothis, the latter House Hraesvelg doesn´t need to know and the former... she did legitimize his house as the founders/rulers of the new Empire.

Well I guess that depends on how much you view it as a partnership of equals vs a master pawn situation.

1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

Hm, the Tower of Black Winds script is ambiguos I´d say - it´s clear with Rheas quote about the commoners, but Sylvains reaction to Miklans finished transformation is kinda... y´know. It would also require the crest-having parts of the nobility to keep silent about the negative consequences of a crest-less person wielding a relic, unless Miklan specifcally doesn´t care, but at the same time he seems a bit surprised about getting sludged.

Then again it´s Sylvain. Bro don´t pay attention if it ain´t a woman.

The wiki also has this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Tomas: Stories of misfortune have followed the Heroes' Relics since ancient times.
(The librarian had been near Byleth & Claude all along, and they're startled by his sudden appearance.)
Claude: Tomas! You've caught me by surprise. That's not easy to do. Though I suppose I should've expected to see our librarian in his library.
Tomas: I am sorry to intrude. I simply heard you speaking of the Heroes' Relics. I can tell you more about them, if you'd like.
Tomas: The story goes that Nemesis was corrupted by evil because of the Sword of the Creator. Other Heroes also lost themselves by continuing to use the Relics...transforming into Black Beasts with twisted souls.
Tomas: There used to be a great many records regarding the dark history of the Relics.
Claude: Used to be?
Tomas: They have been destroyed, across all of Fódlan. Stripped from their shelves, including those that resided at this very library.
Claude: You make it sound like the church is covering up the truth. But now that you mention it, Rhea was very specific about not wanting anyone to find out what happened at Conand Tower.
Claude: Hey Tomas... why are you telling us all this?
Tomas: It seemed like you were searching for answers about the Relics. What is a librarian if not a guide in the search for knowledge. And not only have you been searching, but you have been doing so through the night. I would suggest you stop before the knights notice.
Tomas: And that is enough meddling for today. Please excuse me.

 

 

 

Now that I think about it...... why does Sothis know how to fight the Beasts? She wasn´t... alive? conscious? when she and her people were repurposed into these weapons. so I´d assume it´s her first time fighting these two, unless she gives us strats that worked against her own kin.

But Balthus also knows people turn into black beasts, if I recall. Monica's father would be in the same boat as Miklan where it would be in character to do it anyway knowing the risk.

Linhardt also mentions it in a support and even cautious about handling a weapon even though he does have a crest. Finally Marianne is suggested to have outright suffered discrimination for having the Crest of the Beast, so people must be at least somewhat aware that Inappropriate Crest+Relic use = giant monsters.

[Armchair General]

10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

As someone that hasn't, and due to my dislike of the gameplay of the first FE Warriors game, wont ever play Three Hopes, I lack the context to know what Rhea meant by that, especially with much you distort the story to make the Church seem like harmless pacifists. There are plenty of things that could have been meant by this like:

Basically, shit that the house leaders had to deal with was popping up in just about everywhere due to Kostas being killed by an completely random mercenary and Team Slither's cover accidentally being blown wide open. So the albino freaks accelerated their plans for taking over the Kingdom while Edelgard and Hubert decided to straighten out the ruling houses of the Empire. Some random Alymran prince notices that the Fodlan is going through an revolution and decides that it's an good time to invade. Naturally, everyone panics and asks for an Knight of Seiros to help them.

I forgot why Edelgard got Jeritza, but anyways, the Imperials have more or less got shit done and set up the long defunct "Southern Church" to proclaim that the archbishop is lying about something. Between this and the random shit that's happening elsewhere, Rhea gets pissed off and closes her academy. Note that she does absolutely nothing of note over the course of the 2-3 year timeskip while Catherine is the only one who actually stayed with her. Edelgard gives her rousing speech and invades the monastery without the implicit backing of Team Slither

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well I guess that depends on how much you view it as a partnership of equals vs a master pawn situation.

It is Seiros and the four Saints bestowing their blood to the noble families (presumably so they could use any relics falling to the new empire?) and with Seiros herself publicly assuming the form of the Immaculate One I don´t see how a relationship between any of the Adrestian Emperors, but specifically Wilhelm I. and Seiros could be anything but a master-pawn relationship? And between the beginning and the end of the War of Heroes are what 45 years? 45 years and Seiros looks presumably no different, is one of the founding members of the empire, can and has transformed into a dragon...... yeah, no relationship between her and any human as rulers could ever be equal.

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

But Balthus also knows people turn into black beasts, if I recall. Monica's father would be in the same boat as Miklan where it would be in character to do it anyway knowing the risk.

Only done a cursory glance through his supports but he talks about kerfuffling with monsters. Oh, it´s his paralogue when fighting Ochs. Either way, he is in the abyss, quite outside where most people are. The Baron is trying to save his kid no matter the price, and Balthus telling him that he´s gonna turn into a monster could also be interpreted as a low effort attempt at peacfully resolving the situation.

39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Linhardt also mentions it in a support and even cautious about handling a weapon even though he does have a crest.

Linhardts support with Catherine seems to firmly take place after Miklans death - the school could have taken the opportunity to give a lecture on the relation relic+beast and given a favorable explanation, but that´s just thought exercise - and he does have an interest in Crests to begin with. He also mentions that it´s less likely you´ll be transformed when having a crest, with no report of transformation taking place with mismatched crests. Technically Catherine cautions against it.

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Finally Marianne is suggested to have outright suffered discrimination for having the Crest of the Beast,

So far all I could find is that she´s been a loner as per her fathers, I guess, internalized orders, because her crest gives "bad luck"? There is the crest scholar that "attacks" her in her paralogue... but the whole thing with Maurice is weird because allegedly his name was wiped from history just like his bloodline but Hanneman & Linhardt and the crest scholar just know about it.

What´s more confusing is why there´s just a wild demonic beast lurking ~1.2k years - that shit should have set off the churches alarm lights like nothing else.

[vikingsfan92]

15 hours ago, Jotari said:

But the piles of corpses aren't the "dead horrible people". They are the innocents of war. The farmers and the mill workers. Those are the people Edelgard is killing with the justification of "liberation". She isn't embarking on a terrorist campaign and assassinating Rhea and Seteth. She's killing everyone who stands in her way indiscriminately and is creating a chaos where bad people can thrive and prey on the defenseless. Has your life ever been under direct threat of war? Have you ever went to sleep not knowing if you'll wake up in the morning because someone you don't know will inadvertently kill you for reasons that don't relate to you at all? Edelgard knowing kills innocent people with forethought.

You love ignoring Duscar and Remire don't you. Situations like those were bond to continue if the world kept on keeping on exactly as it was. Because spoiler alert Thales, Solon and Kronya were horrible people. War isn't great but it can actually end actively bad situations that can actually be worse than war because you don't have to be at war to commit horrific acts. Also Haneman sister's situation shows that not all horrible acts are direct murder.  She died as a result yes but it wasn't simple murder either.  The larger fodland situation is a damned if you damned if you don't situation not nearly cut and dry.  If you don't do something then Thales and other horrible people continue exploiting church systems to do human atrocities like human experimentation or using people like cattle because of crest status. And no the chruch isn't going to let reforms happen when they break the facade of the narratives that they established to make their religion work. The whole point is to get people to revere Sothis and to do that they needed people to believe Sothis was responsible for the crest system despite not being true and that's where Edelgard wants to reform most. Which directly impedes Rhea wanting her mother to be seen as all powerful and the one true goddess.

 

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

Should we not have third parties to mediate conflicts? Is it better to just keep killing each other until everyone is dead?

You are naive if you think any party isn't going to insert their own self interest in it.  Looking for mediators is fine but choosing a mediator who doesn't have a ton to gain from one side winning or losing isn't easy.  The church happened to have more investment/ gain from the kingdom winning so I would say they were not an objective mediator and fall more on the lines of people who used mediation position to their advantage rather than proper ones.

Its more of the church were not the right mediators for the conflict thing rather than they should not have looked for mediation thing.

 

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

You're just denying the existence of morality now. Well sure, anyone can do anything if you use the excuse that the world is flawed to justify anything. My point is that Edelgard's war was unjustified, not that the world was perfect (though Fodlan from what we see is a far better place to live than Earth was even four hundred years ago). She had other options she could have done to accomplish her goals peacefully, but she chose not to. She chose to to start a war that killed countless people because she literally wanted to force her idealogy on people who didn't want it.

You sure like spouting words. You are trying to make this situation into bigger than it actually is and I am not going to indulge in this. Also you bury your head in the sand about other terrible things happening in the world and tunnel on just one and acting like it exists in a vacuum when it doesn't and just magically accepting that other options wouldn't result in the same conflict when there is Thales and other corrupt nobles who wants bloodshed.

 

Quote

But Rhea hasn't committed any genocides. As far as her evil goes it's just backing up feudal hierarchy with divine support (which Saudi Arabia is doing itself with an absolute monarch and an aristocracy).

You do realize that she was part of the wars for the establishment of the kingdom and Alliance right?  If anything promoted future tragedies it was the dividing up of Fodland to begin with. The church did exactly what Thales and co wanted them to do to make their lives easier to cause mayhem.  Things going differently back then could have prevented multiple conflicts and massacres much more so than anything else.

Edited June 8, 2023 by vikingsfan92

[Eltosian Kadath]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

But Edelgard's entire policy is to dismantle the hereitary heirarchy. She doesn't gain her leigitimacy from the monarchy. She gains it from "the most capable leader is the one who should lead, and that just happens to be me."

Fine, the better comparison would be to add the stipulation that the new administration was converting the old Electoral College system to a more popular vote one, while having won both the Electoral College, and Popular vote originally.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

But Rhea hasn't committed any genocides. As far as her evil goes it's just backing up feudal hierarchy with divine support.

Lets put aside Rhea's behavior with anyone even slightly associated with the Agarthans here for a moment (as there are definitely messy arguments to be made that this conflict can get into some genocide like territories), I will point out that I specifically mention that I didn't find an "evil ideology" that I was satisfied with being a proper comparison between both modern politics between these two, and Fodlan politics. Also simplifying things to Divine support of feudal hierarchy is missing an import aspect of how it uncomfortably interplays with the self determination of humanity, and how Rhea's ideology would clearly result in violence against Edelgard. Rhea has used her position in the church to ensured that only the humans that have been modified to be more like Nabateans are able to rule over humanity, while being violently paternalistic with Humanity as a Nabatean, in a way that Edelgard accurately predicts would include violence against her once her views and associations were known.

 

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

So Edelgard isn't policing Fodlan by invading the places that don't agree with her ideal society?

She is waging a far more conventional war, whereas the church was a lot more into military intervention in far flung conflicts that don't directly involve them all across Fodlan, which is the behavior I was comparing.

 

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Then Rhea's actions are not preemtive, they're reactive.

I am not necessarily going to disagree with you here, as more my comment is about how the attack the took Garreg Mach wasn't preemptive, but reactive, both a continued step in the escalation of conflict between these two. Edelgard's element of surprise coming from

 

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Also, this is where she outs herself as the Flame Emperor, also outing herself as being in cahoots with the people behind stuff like the Remire Tragedy. Lastly, in Rhea's eyes, she's gonna do the very thing Nemesis did, and it's a personal matter since it's the remains of her people.

Edelgard accurately predicting from Rhea's previous actions that Rhea would declare full scale war when her association with Agarthans was revealed, and Edelgard prepared accordingly.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I am not necessarily going to disagree with you here, as more my comment is about how the attack the took Garreg Mach wasn't preemptive, but reactive, both a continued step in the escalation of conflict between these two. Edelgard's element of surprise coming from

Eh, did it cut off there?

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Edelgard accurately predicting from Rhea's previous actions that Rhea would declare full scale war when her association with Agarthans was revealed, and Edelgard prepared accordingly.

I mean, yeah. If it took Rhea so long it was because Edelgard was in disguise, which means Edelgard was long doing stuff to merit the declaration. Specially since by the time of the Holy Tomb Edelgard had already dragged the Empire itself into it. The Empire had essentially committed the first strike by raiding the Holy Tomb.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

You do realize that she was part of the wars for the establishment of the kingdom and Alliance right?  If anything promoted future tragedies it was the dividing up of Fodland to begin with. The church did exactly what Thales and co wanted them to do to make their lives easier to cause mayhem.  Things going differently back then could have prevented multiple conflicts and massacres much more so than anything else.

This comes across as ahistorical. The Kingdom was formed out of Loog's rebellion, and Seiros negotiated the division between the two countries. Without anyone facilitating this, it's likely that more people would have perished on either side of the conflict.

Dividing up Fódlan meant there were opportunities to experiment with different cultures and styles of governance, rather than the existing "one-size-fits-all" of the Empire. That means less internal struggle, and less need to supress upstart movements.

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

The fact that no one held Garreg Mach in the five year stalemate and that it was just sitting there unoccupied is probably the least realistic aspect of the story. Like, even if your headcanon of Edelgard just grabbing Rhea it is meant to be the case, it is still meant to be a defensible central location of tactical importance isn't it? But even Pallardo would rather hang out in the town than set himself up in a giant ass mansion.

Yeah, that's one of the few areas where CF comes across as better in the storytelling department than the other routes. Perhaps it would've been better if the Church stayed there on non-CF routes. Without Rhea, though, they're a shell of their former selves. Their influence suppressed, Edelgard turns her focus to reinforcing the borders with the Kingdom and Alliance, while putting out fires at home. That would comport with her trying to reconquer the Monastery once Teach returns, since now its inhabitants pose more of a threat.