Rate the Pokemon, Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald Edition

[ZemZem]

Rules (adapted from Fire Emblem RTUs)

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already quote them explicitly. You can troll a bit, but no WURMPLE HAS STRING SHOT 10/10.

+/- ≤1 point extra regarding personality/appearance is encouraged, but no more. If you exercise your bias privileges, please do so explicitly.

- Votes are made out of 10. You cannot rate a pokemon above 10 or below 0.

- The rating topic will be updated whenever I feel like it, but I will try to allow at least 24 hours for each topic. They will generally be updated at around 10 PM CST.

- A pokemon being inferior relative to another pokemon does not explicitly reduce their rating.

- We are rating ingame performance only, up until the Elite 4 is beaten the first time.

- Evolution lines get condensed, so treat Treecko/Grovyle/Sceptile all as one pokemon.

- Pokemon that evolve through trades are accounted for.

- A Pokemon's performance is to be judged by the game they are most prominent in (Example: Zangoose is to be judged by Pokemon Ruby standards.).

Averages:

Nosepass: 0.93

Wurmple/Cascoon/Dustox: 1.67

Skitty/Delcatty: 1.71

Goldeen/Seaking: 2.01

Surskit/Masquerain: 2.88

Mawile: 3.08

Wurmple/Silcoon/Beautifly: 3.50

Nincada/Shedinja: 3.69

Poochyena/Mightyena: 3.95

Nincada/Ninjask: 4.13

Illumise: 4.50

Plusle: 4.75

Volbeat: 5.17

Doduo/Dodrio: 5.25

Aron/Lairon/Aggron: 5.31

Slakoth/Vigoroth/Slaking: 5.36

Minun: 5.38

Geodude/Graveler/Golem: 5.64

Lotad/Lombre/Ludicolo: 5.69

Wingull/Pelipper: 5.70

Whismur/Loudred/Exploud: 5.81

Sableye: 6.14

Seedot/Nuzleaf/Shiftry: 6.36

Zigzagoon/Linoone: 6.43

Zubat/Golbat/Crobat: 6.71

Azurill/Marill/Azumarill: 7.00

Voltorb/Electrode: 7.33

Oddish/Gloom/Vileplume: 7.33

Tentacool/Tentacruel: 7.36

Makuhita/Hariyama: 7.50

Magnemite/Magneton: 7.50

Abra/Kadabra/Alakazam: 7.56

Oddish/Gloom/Bellossom : 7.67

Machop/Machoke/Machamp: 7.80

Electrike/Manectric: 7.88

Magikarp/Gyarados: 8.25

Shroomish/Breloom: 8.27

Treecko/Grovyle/Sceptile: 8.36

Taillow/Swellow: 8.38

Ralts/Kirlia/Gardevoir: 8.39

Meditite/Medicham: 8.50

Tochic/Combusken/Blaziken: 9.00

Mudkip/Marshstomp/Swampert: 9.77

From now on, all ratings for R/S/E Pokemon will happen in this thread, as requested from Tangerine to avoid thread clutter. I will ask that NO ONE post in this tread until the 28 ratings for each Pokemon already tallied are all posted in a post.

EDIT: You may post now. And the links in this OP link to Pokemon ratings in posts.

Edited October 1, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Treecko/Grovyle/Sceptile: 8.36

Treecko is awesome, 'nuff said. It destroys the first gym and doesn't really waver until the fourth gym and sixth gyms. Aside from those, and maybe Glacia (though a good portion of her Pokemon are part Water), Drake, and Steven in RubySapphire, it's pretty damn awesome. It's performance in Emerald is even better due to Wallace being the champion instead of Steven, so bonus.

Leaf Blade will remain my favorite Pokemon move of all time.

9.5/10

EDIT: Changed to 9.5/10, since even if it isn't Emerald, moves like Earthquake exist.

To quote The Insane One, can solo the game, 10/10.

Comes early and stays strong; definitely a solid Pokemon. Sadly, it's lackluster in two of the most difficult battles (Brawly; under Bicycle Road!Rival). That said, it's still a gem, and it's even more valuable in Emerald. However, I'm going to have to dock it for only being around for one trilogy, effective though it is there.

EDIT: In other news, I'm too dumb to read a thread title.

8/10

8/10

Its fast and has good Sp. Atk. Does good throughout the game. But honestly I just don't really like it for some reason which is weird because in every other gen the grass starter is my favorite. So yeah.

8/10 nice stats , but crappy movepool

Eh, Treecko starts off pretty bad due to not getting very many high power moves, though Bullet Seed can help. Doesn't even get very many support moves like Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. Leaf Blade is the only real power move running off of its Special Attack, and that comes after Norman most likely... It does, however, clean up very nicely against Juan and Wallace, though you have to watch out for Ice moves. A pity that it's terrible midgame, though... Locking you out of the other starters doesn't really do it very many favors either. Great EXP group, though!

So... 7/10, with no bias.

I have a hard time not holding it against him that he's so outclassed by other Grass starters like Bulbasaur or Turtwig, but he's quite good anyways. Very high Sp Atk and Spd, but he has a weak movepool with which to take advantage of the stats. No Leech Seed? Really? Early on his offense is bolstered by the Bullet Seed TM, but it's still nothing particularly special. Leaf Blade rapes later, but it's still annoying when it's pretty much your only good move.

I sound kind of pedantic about the Treecko line, but I really like their awesome designs and they're still definitely high up in the more useful half of RSE's dex. Besides, he/she/it/their (idk anymore) availability exceeds that of any other Pokemon, and Hoenn is general is pretty Water-heavy, so they have a lot of general use potential despite sometimes weak gym performance.

8.5/10

Starter/10

Which is 10/10

It's a solid mon that gets the job done.

Nice idea is nice.

[spoiler=What my scale of ratings actually means]Ratings are from zero to ten. Battle utility is considered, availability's influence on the rating is weak.

0/10: Zero utility. Either never exists or is of no value.

1/10: Almost useless. I would advice against using this unless you have no other options.

2/10: Terrible. If you really want to use it, go ahead, but your fondness of the pokemon may be ruined.

3/10: Unserviceable. May find a place on a specialised team but you aren't going to find it very helpful most of the time.

4/10: Poor. May have a niche in which you'll find it briefly useful, but aside from that there are always far superior options.

5/10: Average. Can't be called bad, but is likely to have a crippling problem that always holds them back.

6/10: Decent. Nothing's really wrong with it, but it doesn't excel either.

7/10: Above average. The kind of pokemon that you'll always be happy to have on your team.

8/10: Strong. Not perfect, but capable of carrying any team.

9/10: Exceptional. Will typically make a significant impact even in a disadvantageous situation.

10/10: God tier. Nigh-infallible, and expect its weaknesses to have workarounds.

Normal play:

As a starter, the Treecko line requires no babying, which is a really good trait to have. Outspeeds everything and does great damage when Leaf Blade comes along. Falls short in a few areas due to a lack of coverage and a tendency to have bad matchups at the worst times, but you need to level your other party members at some point, right? 9/10

Zero experience:

Treecko carries your team until Rustboro and makes the gym a hell of a lot easier with Bullet Seed, then stops existing for the rest of the game. Grovyle and Sceptile don't exist. Recommended.

It has good speed, but it's other stats are kind of smelly. Grovyle enters a brief period of amazing when it gets Leaf Blade, but once everyone else gets moves like Surf around the same time, it's nothing special.

7/10

So, Treecko is alright. The stats aren't super fantastic, and the movepool isn't too wonderful, but it's definately workable, and you can't make the complaint that Treecko isn't around too often. Kind of meh for most of the game, but Treecko does have strong points. A lot of the gyms aren't catered to grass types though, unfortunately for Treecko. However, there is always Juan/Wallace, and in the case of Emerald, E4 Wallace.

7/10

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Torchic/Combusken/Blaziken: 9.00

When evolved into Combusken, beats Roxanne almost easily, does well against Brawly and Wattson, okay against Flannery, and does very well against Norman, but Winona (though, her Skarmory is easy to take down) , Tate and Liza, and Wallace/Juan kick its ass. Still, you should have Pokemon that can cover those types.

8/10, +.5 bias for being my first ever Pokemon. 8.5/10

EDIT: I'm stupid, I forgot about her water heavy Hoenn is. I'm taking a full point off.

Best availability, etc. etc. In terms of raw offensive stats it mops the floor with the other two starters, it pretty much mops the floor with them. It has the most rocky gym performance by far; only having a type advantage against Roxanne (if evolved), Norman, and partially Wattson, and making little-to-no contribution at the last three gyms. It lies squarely in the middle with movepool; Ember, Double Kick, Blaze Kick, Slash, and Sky Uppercut are the only things of note it learns naturally, along with Overheat, Brick Break, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast in TMs. The thing is, these are all spread kind of thin; most of these moves come late in its lifespan: Ember, Double Kick, and probably Overheat are the only things it learns before reaching its final evolution stage. It's not Sceptile, Hoenn's official one-hit wonder, and it should still have a pretty good moveset by the time you're staring down the Elite 4. But it doesn't have that much to take advantage of, and that hurts. Let's not forget how Water-heavy this entire region is (the entirety of it is 50% sea!), which brings it down a lot.

Blaziken is still a pretty strong Pokemon, though it takes a while for it to realize its full potential. Its design is pretty cool but it's outmatched by Sceptile's suave demeanor, and in terms of ability it can't even compete with Swampert. Blaziken's just my least favorite Hoenn starter, so I'm taking off of its score for bias.

7.5/10

Torchic gets a 9.5/10 from me (it rates higher than Treecko by 0.5 because my Treecko vote included bias). Has a rocky endgame, but its early-midgame is almost on par with Mudkip, and its offensive stats are the best of the three starters.

Blaziken solos are the only way I play RSE now. :>

The hardest part about using this family is getting to the Combusken stage by Roxanne quickly. From there on out the game is easy. It's a solid performance against all of the early-mid game gyms. Winona's Swellow and Altaria are probably the first real obstacle to Blaziken, Tate and Liza roflstomp all of the starters, and Wallace is a little rough. Blaziken absolutely shines against the Elite Four though, hitting everything except for Drake's Altaria and Salamence for at least neutral damage with just its STABs. So in a nutshell, Blaziken only really stumbles at around the last third of the game, but it's awesome performance at the Elite Four is a good enough reason to persevere and continue using it.

10/10, which does include a full point of bias. One of the best starters in series history, right up there with Mudkip, Cyndaquil and Tepig.

Tepig was pretty good, but not something I call the best in history, it's a bit too slow for that. Did you mean Infernape?

Anyways, on to Torchic, which was my first Hoenn Pokemon! It hasn't aged the best, thanks to Hoenn being full of water. It's great throughout the first half, and it really shines at Norman... but after that it's rough sailing for a while. Fortunately for it, it happens to do great in the Elite Four, dominating Sidney and Glacia. Too bad it can't learn Shadow Ball...

8/10 in Sapphire and Emerald, 8.5 in Ruby.

Probably THE best Pokemon in the game, statswise! It might have difficulties but everything else has more difficulties.

I guess I might be a little biased because my Ruby playthrough was a Torchic/Combusken/Blaziken solo and I didn't have too much trouble.

10/10

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Mudkip/Marshstomp/Swampert: 9.77

This guy. Literally the only bad matchups he has all game are May's Grovyle and Wallace's Ludicolo. He is possibly the best starter (ingame) of all time. 10/10

Pretty awesome Pokemon. Outside of Grass guys (Winona's Tropius, May's Lotad/Treecko family, and whatever else exists). Other than the Grass-type weakness, 60 base speed sucks... majorly. Swampert is pretty much guaranteed to always go second, though thankfully it is bulky. Speed matters ingame though, and this is enough to warrant some deductions.

Those two weaknesses give it a fair score of 8.5. However, the stupid Mudkip meme makes me exert a full point of bias for 7.5/10.

10/10

I would give it higher if I could. Water/ground is actually pretty good typing, it has solid defensive stats and great attack(not the best for water but eh). Maybe not the most varied moovepool ever in terms of typing. Plus it looks awesome and I generally just like it a lot.

Oh god, Swampert is like one of the best walls in the game.

It can put itself in a role of a sweeper, learning Surf/EQ/Ice Beam, having great coverage.

In all honesty, I would put it as 15/10, but due to the cap, it is 10/10 imo

I love Swampert :3

That said, 10/10. It just wrecks face from beginning to end, and has only one weakness (though it is a quad weakness). Personally, I really don't get why people say Blaziken's better, as I don't see that to be the case at all. Also, while its quad weakness to grass hurts, aside from Wallace's Ludicolo, Winona's Tropius and the rival's Grovyle, grass is hardly a relevant attack type. And it also trivializes Wattson and Flannery, to say nothing of it generally being effective in Gyms.

Ow...my first starter when I play pokemon Sapphire at the first time. IMO, this is the best starter. You get water gun at level 10 which is very effective against Roxanne's Nosepass (yeah, it is )

The dual type after evolve at level 16 makes that pokemon really interesting. Water+Ground and has one weakness, Grass. Give Ice Beam, sooooo....goodbye Grass and Electric. You can't touch me.

One minus for this pokemon is the speed. That's it.

My score for this pokemon is 9/10. But, since it's so adorable (forget about the speed), 10/10.

Becomes a fantastic wall, has great dual typeing once it evolves and has a pretty good movepool to boot. The only real weakness I can think of is its speed, but even then it will still probably outspeed whatever it faces anyway.

10/10, + 1 bias point for being one of my favorite pokemon

These guys are amazing.

They only have trouble against grass types in the first 1/3 of the game, and then you get Ic Beam, and you kill the rest of the game.

Pretty much what many have said before me/

10/10

I liek Mudkipz. He tanks anything that isn't grass and dishes out heavy damage in return. His speed is a problem, but when you're this good it can be more than forgiven.

9.5/10, +.5 bias for a total of 10/10

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Poochyena/Mightyena: 3.95

Kinda got screwed over in this game. Dark-type moves are special, but Special Attack is Mightyena's lowest stat. 420 BST is terrible. It gets its first STAB, Bite, at Lv.13. Then it doesn't see another Dark-type STAB until freaking Lv.47 with Crunch. Theif is the only Dark-type TM, and it is even weaker than Bite. Mightyena's offense is pretty terrible until it can get Shadow Ball, which will be its strongest move even after factoring Crunch and STAB. But when 90 is your highest stat period, you're kinda doomed to be left behind after the early game is over and more Pokemon become available. It's a good thing it joins early, otherwise it would be pretty useless.

3.5/10 - Only advantageous at Tate&Liza, as well as Pheobe. But Mightyena's terrible stats make using it in the late game, where it finally gets a chance to shine, a chore.

Pros:

-Available early on

-Okay moveset, wide range of TMs

-Once second gym is beaten there aren't any areas where it will be particularly weak

-Helpful for first half of the elite 4

-Beats Wally's Gardevior (I really dont like wally after losing to him at the end of victory road once)

Cons:

-No real STAB bonuses

-Stats are meh

I'd give it a solid 6/10

Kinda got screwed over in this game. Dark-type moves are special, but Special Attack is Mightyena's lowest stat. 420 BST is terrible. It gets its first STAB, Bite, at Lv.13. Then it doesn't see another Dark-type STAB until freaking Lv.47 with Crunch. Theif is the only Dark-type TM, and it is even weaker than Bite. Mightyena's offense is pretty terrible until it can get Shadow Ball, which will be its strongest move even after factoring Crunch and STAB. But when 90 is your highest stat period, you're kinda doomed to be left behind after the early game is over and more Pokemon become available. It's a good thing it joins early, otherwise it would be pretty useless.

3.5/10 - Only advantageous at Tate&Liza, as well as Pheobe. But Mightyena's terrible stats make using it in the late game, where it finally gets a chance to shine, a chore.

This, but 4/10 plus a solid point of bias for looking awesome once evolved makes 5/10.

Poochyena shows up early and is willing to help the team out, especially when it learns Bite at level 13; there aren't many Psychic or Ghost types to test it out on, but getting STAB on a 60-power move is very impressive that early, even if you have bad Sp. Atk. It also evolves at level 18, right at the point where it needs a bit of a jump in stats to keep up.

Then it goes and doesn't learn another Dark move until level frickin' 47. That's a very long time to spend with poor stats and one STAB move for another attack that only ups the ante for 20 power. In the interim it gets natural moves like Odor Sleuth, Roar, Swagger, and Taunt. Plus Take Down at level 37. Totally worth it, right, man? Don't forget that it can learn TMs like Hyper Beam, Iron Tail, and Strength, all of which can be learned by about 100 other, more valuable Pokemon!

I really want to like Mightyena, since it looks awesome, but it just makes it so hard for me. I guess it can help out at Tate and Liza's gym and against Phoebe if you put up with it long enough for it to be around then. 90 Atk means it can deliver a decent Take Down once it finally learns it and stuff. 60 Sp Atk means it can deliver a not-so-mean Crunch once it finally learns it and stuff. I actually think it's being a bit overrated.

2.5 + .5 bias = 3/10

really, really over shadowed by 2nd/3rd gym

honestly, doesn't bring much effort to the battle, and even then zigzagoon is wayy better.(though better than skitty ^_^)

imo, I don't want to be too mean to him, as he is the only dark type you get(lol Idc about sableye) until absol.(might be wrong on this, confirm please)

Also, in xD he is just a total boss. poison fang and dig at recovery? heck yesh.

3/10(not counting xd, if you are, make it 5/10)

As mentioned before Dark-type is indeed Special, which doesn't help much with anything.

Does help defeat Tate and Liza, but will you be using a Mightyena by then?

Also Intimidate on Mightyena is pretty good.

Intimidate is overall a good ability.

However, stats aren't that great and again, Dark isn't that great either.

4/10.

Mightyena is awesome looking though.

Bias.

5/10.

2/10. Ugh, this thing really sucks. While it has decent atack and gets Bite early, Dark is a special type (and Dark's not that good anyhow). To make matters worse, it doesn't get another attack move naturally until Take Down, and Crunch isn't learned until level 47. Intimidate is about all it has going for it, which is a darn shame too.

Comes early, and stays viable for the early-game. STAB for a decent move is nice. Intimidate is useful. He also evolves early, which is a nice boost.

On the other hand, he's not exactly late-game material, and suffers from there being no physical/special split in Gen3.

5/10 with bias because dogs are awesome.

Shitty common pokemon who isn't even as good as Zigzagoon. Horrible movepool, pretty stupid typing, weak stats. 1.5/10

Average really.

5+1 bias for saving my ass by being an Intimidate bot in that one draft. = 6/10

Can be used for awhile until its late game comes where you'll see it really starts to become less and less useful. It does have an above average attack stat and a pretty good ability which saves it from a lower rating

4.5/10

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Zizagoon/Linoone: 6.43

Solid HM slave. Between it and Wingull's family, you get every HM except for Dive and Waterfall, both of which come late enough for a replacement to join. It's a good thing it has HM utility, because its combat is worse than Mightyenas (who had 90/60/70). Linoone's got (70/50/100). HM slaves are like FE Theives. Lol combat, but sweet utility.

6/10 - More useful lategame than earlygame. Cut isn't a requirement and Flash is optional, so you're not going to need it until you beat Wattson. The earlygame also isn't kind to it in terms of combat (Rock and Fighting both say LOL to Normal types). It can be replaced (albeit not as efficiently).

Zigzagoon can be caught really early, and despite lackluster stats it has a very strong STAB move in Headbutt, which it learns at LV9. It's really good and helps it a lot, but it ends up being the crux of its offense all the way until Slash at LV41, which... oh, has the exact same power. Well.

In terms of offense, Linoone's groan-inducing natural moveset and bleh stats (aside from its Spd, which is actually quite nice) hold it back from greatness. While far from optimal, it actually is pretty usable; or at least more so than Mightyena. It gets STAB off of common TM moves like Hyper Beam, Facade, and Strength, so it may be worth investing them on Linoone if you're using it frequently. Let's not forget its general versatility in off-the-wall moves like Shock Wave, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, and Surf, offering good type coverage even if Linoone's terrible Sp Atk offers little room to use them at max efficiency. It's definitely worth more combat-wise than Furret or Bibarel.

Mentioning Strength (which is actually an HM, silly me), Zigzagoon/Linoone's most useful purpose is in pure utility; that is, as an HM slave. Need someone to throw those annoying boulders around in Victory Road? Linoone's your guy. Don't want to waste Rock Smash on your precious Marshtomp? Linoone can learn it and punch rocks Schwarzenegger-style like nobody's business. Even need a loyal surfboard to exploit up and down the Hoenn coastline? Linoone won't like it, but he's a cool bro so he'll totally do it. Cut, Surf, Strength, and Rock Smash, the game's four most prominent TMs (well, perhaps Cut isn't that big a deal), can all be learned by it. It can't get Flash, Dive or Waterfall, but Flash isn't even essential, and since you need it out at sea it's not that hard to catch something for Dive or Waterfall if you don't want your Water-type learning it (actually, Dive would be nicer on Linoone since a Water-type will like Surf, making that HM unnecessary). Linoone's not great, but it can become a core of a rotating team in its own special way, especially since it's around pretty much forever, and I consider that important.

7.5/10 (may think about lowering this)

You gotta admit though, Zigzagoon's easier to raise than Poochyena is, considering it gets STAB Headbutt at level 9...

That being said... 6/10. Good HM slave, and it also has Pickup.

I love zigzagoon. Really, so awesome :D

But anyways, shows up fairly early, is kinda rare though, and makes a great hm slave. Pickup is pretty awesome, and it doesn't really have a late evolution.

7/10 + 1 for being the mvp of my emerald nuzlocke 8/10

Alright, another one of those differing version things!

Zigzagoon is pretty bad at combat, what with its terrible Attack. But, it's the only Pokemon in Hoenn with Pickup, and in Ruby/Sapphire, Pickup is amazing. Super Potions, Ultra Balls, Revives, Nuggets, Rare Candies... if you keep one around, you're bound to get many of these because it's a 10% shot after every battle. You might even get a couple of PP Ups and a King's Rock! And all of this at the beginning of the game?! Not bad for a Pokemon that doesn't even have to enter combat! Catch a couple near Fortree if you want them updated a bit. Oh, and it makes an excellent HM slave too. Don't ever have a blank spot in your party, stuff one of these guys in it. It's worth it.

And you know what else comes with money? Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Psychic TMs, from the Game Corner. Not only does it buff your item stash, it directly contributes to your other teammates by making them more powerful. Oh, and I guess you could count vitamins, too. You can get Proteins directly from it, too.

In Emerald, it got nerfed, hard. It's much rarer, and Pickup got nerfed even harder, actually requiring Zigzagoon to level up to get good stuff. It still gets Potions and such, though.

Oh yeah, Linoone is half-decent, but nothing special. Not really worth getting Ziggy to 20 for.

In Ruby/Sapphire, 10/10 for sheer utility. I am dead serious. Emerald gets a 5/10, due to the loot being much worse, along with its relative scarcity.

Probably the best HM slave in the game, pickup is also nice, though it's pretty useless in battle.

7.5/10

Best HM slave imo. He even learns surf somehow. Pickup is handy, especially if you're like me and never bother training them. Also, I find the design cute...

5/10

[ZemZem]

Wurmple/Silcoon/Beautifly: 3.50

4/10

erm can learn gust

great for brawly all I can say

(nuzlocke ownage with this)

Well, this thing is thankfully not locked to mere tackles, and can fire off Poison Stings, but that's likely it; barring String Shot.

Then we evolve it into a cocoon with Harden; easy evolution to Beautifly at LV10, and gets Absorb right out of the box; which is good for sweeping Geodudes; but not that Nosepass.

It's either I got accustomed to raising cocoon bugs in Pokemon; but usually, they're a pain to raise. Now after knocking Roxanne off the cliff; we get Brawly, and this bug has 4x resistance from his attacks and getting to LV13 means Gust and can simply troll the crap out of him! Then by LV17, this thing gets Stun Spore!

Wattson is a no-no; Flannery is also a no-no; It won't see use against Norman and Winona is a total mindfuck for this bug. Also, Liza and Tate simply laugh at this thing; but it can play around Wallace/Juan and knock that annoying Luvdisc or Whiscash off screen (Although that's with Giga Drain).

Problem? The typing is its curse; and won't see use at Midgame/Lategame which makes the poor flying butterfly don't see much use. It's also simply a copy of Butterfree except not getting Confusion upon evolving and gets a pretty "eh" movepool as well, counting TM's as well.

Although I kinda find it's contributions in Sapphire more prominent; since we're seeing like... lots of fragile Carvanhas for it to knock with Absorb. In Emerald, it's a seesaw, and hell no in Ruby cause you get Numels and Camerupts on your face.

3.5

I personally like this bug (aside from Masquerain) thanks to Stun Spore utility and Earlygame Geodude and Carvanha slaying, so +1 bias point for...

4.5

If its strong enough, it can be a starter against Roxanne with Absorb. Gust is pretty useful for Brawly, and then its pretty much done. Bad stats make it difficult to use late game, and no HMs remove any reason to keep it around.

3/10 - Probably the easiest way to beat Brawly (Kadabra, lolRalts and Taillow are your only other options). Pure earlygame utility.

I feel the same way for Beautifly as I do Butterfree, only with lack of status inflicting moves

2.5/10

3.5/10. It's one of the best ways to trounce Brawly, at least.

Wurmple gets the Bug-type's usual level 10 final evolution, so you can get Beautifly potentially before Roxanne. It learns Absorb at level 10, which I guess can help against Roxanne, though it'll only be able to fight weak Geodudes; it has strong Sp Atk (90 is pretty solid), but a 20 power Grass move without STAB might not one-shot in time for Beautifly to avoid a Rock attack, which it's 4x weak to. Even though there are better choices, it does deserve credit for being useful at the first gym, and being strong against general trainers for a little while. Then, it learns Gust at level 13 and has STAB for it, and is actually resistant to Fighting attacks, making it one of the best picks available to you versus Brawly.

However, 90 Sp Atk doesn't make up for the rest of its stats, all of which are bad (70 Atk is somewhat debatable, in all fairness). It does learn a few strong TMs like Psychic, Solarbeam, and Aerial Ace, and even gets some good natural moves going forward, like Stun Spore, Mega Drain, Silver Wind, and Giga Drain. These are all good things for it, but it's pretty limited when it can learn few things it gets any STAB off of (Silver Wind and Aerial Ace once you get into the lategame, I guess), and its weak stats don't help its nice movepool. It also misses out on the traditional deluge of status moves that Bug types get, and its typing means it's easily felled by a lot of common stuff (Fire, Rock, Electric). Has potential, but wastes a lot of it.

4/10

Its stats are impressive early game but not so much after that. Also useful early on. But after all it is bug/flying unfortunately which with those stats comes with all kinds of problems. Though I do think it looks really cool.

3/10.

[ZemZem]

Wurmple/Cascoon/Dustox: 1.67

It's got arguably better typing than Beautifly (x4 Fight resist, x4 Grass resist, x2 Rock weak), but oh those offensive stats are painful (50/50/65). Dustox struggles to do damage to anything in the earlygame. For reference, 50 Sp.A is the same Mudkip has. Now its pretty good for Mudkip. But Dustox has evolved twice and only now does it match the offenses of a Mudkip. That's just sad. >.< No early Absorb removes any hope of having utility against Roxanne, but Gust and Confusion can provide something as a last resort against Brawly.

1/10 - Purely from utility against Brawly. It's so terrible at attacking, all of its stats suck (bar SDef but who cares about that ingame), its typing is balls bad and its movepool is thinner than a nebula belt.

Ok Beautifly is bad, but Dustox is worse. Sure that Spf. Def. is amazing for how early in the game you can get him, but he struggles like ridiculousness in the attacking department. Looks kinda cool though... 2/10

1/10

BRAWLY UTILITY

2+1 bias for soloing Norman in the Emerald low level draft - 3/10

2.5/10. Aside from Brawly, it can eat Norman's Slaking(s) alive with Toxic and Protect.

2.5/10. Aside from Brawly, it can eat Norman's Slaking(s) alive with Toxic and Protect.

This and I think it can solo Sydney too.

Terrible stats, terrible movepool and terrible typeing. I could only REALLY see it being useful during Brawly.

1/10

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Lotad/Lombre/Ludicolo: 5.69

3.5/10. Ugh. This thing's hard as hell to work with thanks to lolAstonish beingnot very effective or worse yet, outright ineffective against a lot of what yousee earlygame, and its natural movepool is awful, which only makes training itharder. It doesn't help that it won't get to its final evolution until you getyour seventh badge, and needs a lot of resources to hold its own.

I think Lombre was voiced by DAN GREEN in the pokemon anime

7/10

Not too sure what to think of it. It's kinda bad until it gets to Lv.7 (muchlike most of the earlygame stuff like Ralts and Seedot). It pretty muchrequires the use of TMs though, as Lombre doesn't get an offensive Water-typemove until Lv. freaking 49 (It's so getting surf before then). Ice Beam andGiga Drain give it a solid lategame, but the earlygame is really bad for it.Once it gets Surf it's set. Too bad Surf comes after halfway through the game.

5+1 bias = 6/10 - Uber tiny natural movepool, which requires lots ofresources to get solid offense. Bias comes from Mirror. B.

I like the typing, stat aren't terrible for the most part. Move pool sucks butthough and is only available in 2/3 games.

3/10

Bad when you first get it, pretty good once it gets Absorb and Bullet Seed onit, starts to deteriorate again as you move through the game. By the time youget Surf, it's probably having loads of trouble justifying its spot on theteam, though once it does learn it it's set as a solid Water type, especiallysince you can then jet off to the Abandoned Ship and finally evolve this stupidthing, since the only remotely worthwhile thing it learns aside from Absorb andthe uber-late Hydro Pump is Fake Out, which loses a lot of ground as a goodopening attack over time.

For the lategame, it has Solarbeam, Giga Drain, and Ice Beam to make a splash(lawl geddit). For raw stats, it's nice as a Ludicolo (90/100 for Specialstats), despite some meh Spd that it could use a Quick Claw for. It's a prettygood option versus Roxanne, and actually really good to mess with Wallace/Juan(but only in the short term since its only good Grass move would have lowuses). Overall Ludicolo can be a good member of the team once you get cruisinginto the latter act of the game, but are you willing to sit through a longperiod of stink for that? Take your pick.

4.5 + 1 bias = 5.5/10

7.5/10

Decent, nice movepool, but no water stone until lategame kills his potential.

That beginning is atrocious. Astonish is a terrible move, but if you levelLotad up, it becomes pretty good later. And you could wait until later andcatch a Lombre by Meteor Falls if you want to avoid the crappy start. WaterStones take a while to get, but until then Lombre can suffice. The movepool ispretty good.

6/10 + 1 bias

7/10

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Seedot/Nuzleaf/Shiftry: 6.36

4/10. Lotad's Ruby version counterpart. Unfortunately, it's not much better,since it has to start with lolBide, and also gains hardly anything of notenaturally. However, it does get to evolve a good deal earlier than Lombre.

Pretty much the same as Lotad, only with an even crappier start. Leaf Stonedoes come earlier though. 100/90/60 offenses are nice, but its movepool is sonarrow (Giga Drain from TM, Faint Attack from Nuzleaf, Shadow Ball, Dig and...that's pretty much everything).

4.5/10.

5.5/10

Questionable start, solid finish.

MY FAVORITE POKEMON EVER!

Anyway, it ends pretty well even if it doesn't start there, but even at thestart you can give it Bullet Seed so 6/10 + 1 bias = 7/10

Actually, change my vote to Sharpy's, but with a +1 bias for 9.5

Well, it's decent overall.

Decent special/physical movepool.

High HP as Shiftry.

Tengus are cool.

Well, assuming that we feed it bullet seed, and have it take care of the randomHikers with Geodudes in the first gym, and the Hikers outside Whismur Cave.

It's pretty easy to raise, and isn't that bad.

LEaf stone comes before Water stone, and Nuzleaf does get Secret/nature powerwith decent att/sp att.

And, Faint Attack comes early for stab, and Emerald has the Explosion tutor.

Not a bad mon, and isn't bad.

8.5/10

Solid Performance, with a few resources, only bad part is slow start.

8/10. Seedot isn't that hard to train if you teach it Bullet Seed, and when itevolves, it becomes a fast Pokemon with strong offences.

Frankly speaking, pretty bad until you evolve it with that Leaf Stone, and eventhen it's not spectacular. Its typing makes it decent enough to face the E4 -Brick Break for Sydney and Shadow Ball for Phoebe; however, both TMs arecontested by your other Pokemon, many of whom put them to better use (such asbeing faster, having STAB for fighting-type moves and/or having better typing).Its best two STAB attacks - Giga Drain and Faint Attack - only have 60 BP, andthe former runs out of PP too quickly. Setup capacity with Growth deserves tobe mentioned. Shiftry might seem like a good Pokemon for Liza and Tate, but itdoesn't have strong enough moves to OHKO, and Solrock threatens it withFlamethrower (in both RS and E).

4.5, including 0.5 for levelling fast in Emerald (I think it's a veryreasonable idea to catch a Ralts just to trade it for a Seedot if you want tobe using Seedot in Emerald).

[ZemZem]

Taillow/Swellow: 8.38

10/10, best TAS Pokemon

Taillow is probably the first of the really great early birds, what with itsaccess to Wing Attack early on. Does great against Brawly, but isn't supereffective afterwards. Still, it's lighting fast and able to deal with the manygrasses and bugs that normal trainers love to use. Endeavor is great, too,along with Guts. Get it poisoned and have it Facade its way through the E4!

8/10, but with +1 bias for being the first great early bird becomes 9/10.

Oh, and it you want to see Thunder Armor in REAL action, go and watch that TAS.

9/10

THUNDER ARMOUR!

Also, has excellent synergy with Mudkip.

9/10. Great start and middle, but tends to slightly lose usefulness aroundlate-game

Great early on with lv. 13 Wing Attack, but poor coverage and base stats startto show later on, and even with Guts, there's not a whole lot Swellow is doingthat somebody else isn't doing better. Brawley is its time to shine. 5/10

Darn it why did I not know of this earlier

Taillow is basically the prototype Starly. He's only got Wing Attack for FlyingSTAB, and Guts isn't as good as Intimidate, but the stats are good and it's anamazing candidate for Return. Also one of the best candidates for Fly in theentire game.

EDIT: DUH RATING 9/10

8/10. Guts + Facade + STAB = Pain. It's also lightning fast. Aside from those,it gets Wing Attack early.

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Wingull/Pelipper: 5.70

Protect on Pelliper makes Norman a joke. It gets it via level up.

It pretty much requires TMs though, or else you'll be stuck with Water Gun and Wing Attack until Lv.61's Hydro Pump. Fly and Surf is cool for HMs.

Pelliper's Base 100 defense is pretty cool, and base 85 SpA does it somewhat hard. It's sloooow though.

5/10

Wingull's decent, it gets Wing Attack fairly early (though off a pretty bad Attack), and can nail Roxanne and Flannery with that Water Gun. It's stats aren't the best, but it gets the job done, up until after, say, Winona, maybe Tate&Liza in R/S.

Oh yeah, it gets Protect, too. Good stuff for messing with Norman's Slakings.

6/10

Good typeing, with a good defense stat and a decent Sp.Atk stat. Has a pretty bad movepool though and is inferior to some of the other water types and flying types

6.5/10

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Ralts/Kirlia/Gardevoir: 8.39

Kinda lame start, because it's not doing squat until Lv.6. It's stats are amongthe lowest out of all Pokemon. Evolution into Kirlia barely improves its stats.Evolution into Gardevoir finally gives it awesome stats, and Lv.30 is earlierthan most.

Psychic and Thunderbolt are pretty much all it needs for offense. That's goodbecause that's all it gets for special moves. Throw in Calm Mind and Reflect(which helps a lot with its low defense), and you're pretty much set to go.

8+1 bias = 9/10 - It's like a less extreme Magikarp, only a Psychictype. It's fairly medicore until the Gardevoir stage, but that Gardevoir stageis amazing,

I can see Taillow > Treecko. Guts + STAB Facade is quite powerful againsteverything other than Phoebe and Winona's Skarmory.

Ralts, ugh. TBH I've never seen what's so great about it. Average at best untilevolution into Gardevoir. Then it's good, but nothing great. Psychic ispowerful, but it won't hit any big targets for SE damage, and Thunderbolt willhelp you out against Juan/Wallace, some against Glacia, and against Wallace ifhe's the champ, but that's it. It's Speed is average at best, and it's veryfrail. It doesn't get enough SE targets to be able to power its way past themand not have that durability be a factor. 7/10

The start isn't too wonderful, and it's goddamn fucking hard to find too. Level30 promotion into Gardevoir is really excellent though. Psychic and Thunderboltare good moves. Confusion as Ralts/Kirlia is good for Brawly, too.

8/10, a great mon except for its not too great start and it's rarity.

7/10.

Bad start, strong finish.

Good stats, movepool and also a pretty early Psychic type. Requiresa bit of babying though to get an offensive move.

8.5/10

(This wasn't counted due to being late, but...)

Too late, but since this is my fave.....

9/10+1

Imagine Magikarp, coming earlier, with an actual STAB move in 2 levels, andall.

For what it's worth, I always try to get a female one with a good nature, andseem to find alot of Bold ones.........

Oh, and Thunderbolt+Psychic+CM+Filler beats everything at Winona andafterwards, and before, Kirlia is a great user for Shock Wave and learns CM atevolution (lvl 20/21)

10/10.

[ZemZem]

Surskit/Masquerain: 2.88

' date='27 June 2012 - 05:47 AM' timestamp='1340765261'post='2038004']

Interesting Pokemon. It's too bad Masquerain didn't keep Surskit's Bug/Watertyping, because then it would be so much more unique than a Bug.Flying dude. Ireally like this Pokemon though.

I like waiting until Lv.25 to evolve it so that it can get Bubblebeam (thestrongest Water-type attack it gets). It can get Ice Beam from TM. It gets AerialAce via TM, which is the strongest Flying type move you're going to get. SilverWind at Lv.47 gives it four moves to work with, and all with decent coverage.But with no stats higher than 82, Masquerain is really tough to use late game.

4 + 1 bias = 5/10. It's basically the same as Beautifly, but with Waterand Ice moves at the cost of slightly worse offense. Intimidate makes itbulkier. Bias comes from Surskit's awesome typing.

fails at life and is hard to find

2/10

hahahhaha

2.5/10

Better than Wurmple, if we don't count rarity.

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Shroomish/Breloom: 8.27

Grass/Fighting is an awesome combo for ingame.

Grass hits Roxanne, Wallace and Glacia. Fighting hits most of Wallace, Norman,Drake, Glacia and Steven. Breloom isn't doing squat against Flannery, Winonaand Drake. If it can outspeed Solrock or Lunatone, Breloom has a chance in theTate+Liza fight. Shroomish isn't doing much against Brawly, but Brawly isn'tdoing much to it either.

Breloom is clearly meant to be an offensive Pokemon (base 130 attack says yo!).But the cool thing about it is that it gets a bunch of supportive moves (StunSpore, Leech Seed and more) as a Shroomish. A moveset of Bulk Up/SkyUppercut/Mach Punch/Sludge Bomb is what I end up giving Breloom (it has lowspecial attack, so giving it grass moves isn't a good idea), but that last spotcan be pretty much anything. It's stat total is kinda low, but everything is justwhere it needs to be (again, 130 base attack).

7+1 = 8/10 - One of the best Grass-type Pokemon to have around (which isgood, because the remaining ones [Oddish, Roselia and Tropius] all suck] Ithits really hard, and when it can't hit hard, it has supportive moves to fallback on. Bias comes from being a beast competitively (Spore is just :DDDDD).Best in Sapphire due to being able to prey on Aqua's weak little Carvanha'swith Mach Punch. Mach Punch is probably Breloom's most important move, as it letsit bypass it's meh speed.

MACH PAWNCH!

10/10

Decent start, Bullet Seed/Leech Seed/Stun Spore, with good early bulk, thenMach PAWNCH on evolution.

When not using Swamperts, it does well at Wattson if evolved.

A solid mon throughout the game.

8/10. Solid Pokemon that has to go through a slow start, but once it evolves,look out.

7.5/10

Kind of a pain in the arse to train but doesn't take too long to evolve, andwhen it does it can keep levelling up by switching into things weak to fightingand Mach Punching them, seems to OHKO the fragile neutral ones too, with theSTAB, high base attack and a level advantage. Bulk Up gives it an opportunityto sweep and a real tool against Norman. A real shame about that special attackthough, but if you teach it Giga Drain, you'll probably fine some use for its 5PP in some situations, like against one of those water/grounds. Also slow,which is a problem when Mach Punch doesn't OHKO.

Pretty interesting Pokemon. It starts out as a decent supportPokemon, providing Leech Seed and Stun Spore. Unfortunately, itscombat ability is a bit lacking... until it evolves and starts tearing shitup. Mach Punch looks weak, but 130 base attack + 60 power after STABis great at that point in the game (not to mention it gets priority), and itgets Sky Uppercut once other Pokemon catch up. Still, the slow startand lack of coverage drags him down a bit.

8.2/10

[ZemZem]

Slakoth/Vigoroth/Slaking: 5.36

Pain in the rear to level up to Lv.16, where it finally gets good. It's uselessfor the first two gyms due to its Normal typing (and Slakoth's Truant, which isanother story). Vigoroth isn't too bad for a middle stage Pokemon (it's rathergood, actually). Slaking's stats are amazing, but Truant kinda keeps it frombeing awesome.

5-1 = 4/10 - Terrible earlygame. Meh midgame, and solid endgame.Negative bias comes from making battles take twice as long as normal due toTruant.

the best pokemon ever because it's lazy as fuck

-3 for vigoroth not having truant and the evolution chain making no sensewhatsoever

7/10

If my starter has issues with the first two gyms, I usually employ Slakoth forYawn. Training it isn't too hard, I found, especially with Exp Share. It doesmore damage with Scratch in one turn than many average early game Pokemon intwo turns, and you can count on it scoring OHKOs if you do train it, especiallyat its final stage. Can make use of hit and run tactics as Slaking, OHKOing andswitching out with that monstrous attack. Still, a really gimmicky Pokemon so-1 bias. 6/10

Truant is a big derp.

5/10

I fucking hate Truant. Because of this I never evolve Vigoroth. Dat attackthough, dat attack.

4/10 because truant really is a horrible skill, the only thing saving it fromgetting a lower unbiased score is Vigoroth. Speaking of bias.....

3/10

Hyperbeam, EQ, Shadow Ball and Choice Band. And then, destruction, sleep,destruction, sleep... ad infinitum.

7/10 + 0 bias (+1 because lazy as fuck, but - 1 because Vigoroth exists) = 7/10

Hard to work with until evolution because of Truant, then it becomes decent.Once it evolves into Slaking, it gets amazing stats, but whoops, Truant keepsit from being great. 4/10 because Truant sucks, and I mean really sucks.

Edit:

...Nope. You're still stuck doing nothing the next turn regardless. Why peoplecontinue to think recharge moves and Slaking go hand in hand is beyond me.

Well because your going to skip a turn anyway, you'd may as well use HyperBeam, right?

Make use of that stupidly monster attack.

Too bad Truant doesn't help anything else.

Skill Swap with your Slaking. I dare you.

A lot of points that have been said are relevant and I don't need to say themagain,

5/10 +1 bias

6/10

Skill Swap and Gastro Acid laugh at you, oh king of Slak.

Boss stats over truant, which sucks monkeyfeet.

6/10 for scoring OHKOs like, a lot on wild pkmn.

[ZemZem]

Abra/Kadabra/Alakazam: 7.56

7/10

Kadabra is great, but a glass cannon.

And low variety of moves is derp.

Pretty much a faster, stronger and much frailer Gardevoir.

8-1 = 7/10

7.5/10. Abras are hard to obtain and you have to teach it TMs or baby it beforeit can even be usable. But when it fully evolves it becomes a monster with epicSpecial Attack and Speed.

6.5 (7.5-1 bias because I'm not very fond of trade evolutions)/10. It has to beswitch-ground until it evolves, which is a serious headache. Its low movevariety doesn't help it... That said, it's fast and powerful.

hits like a farking truck and destroys all in its path except dark types whichall psychics do fuck all against anyway

9/10 better than gardevoir

[ZemZem]

Nincada/Shedinja: 3.69

Nincada/Ninjask: 4.13

I use Shedinja to catch Regice and Registeel after their Ancientpowers havebeen a used up. I also give it Sandstorm.

Kinda meh Pokemon to be honest. It's not really useful against any of the gyms,except for Tate and Liza. They'll also do alright against Sidney. Problem isthat their stats, like the other three early bugs, are too low to take them tothe end of the game. Ninjask's movepool is pretty tiny (Aerial Ace, ShadowBall, Return and lol Fury Cutter are all you're getting for offense, althoughaccess to Swords Dance can help). I think Ninjask is more frail than Alakazam,which says a lot.

Shedinja is incredibly unique, although the uniqueness can sometimes beequivalent to plain bad. It's got the same moveset problems as Ninjask. WonderGuard can be oh so useful when you have it, but is isn't so useful after Brawly(Wattson's Voltorb has Rollout and the Magnet duo has Supersonic for confusion,Flannery battle = no Shedinja, Norman's Slaking's have Faint Attack, Winonabattle = lolno, Tate's Solrock has Flamethrower, but Wallace can't do jack toShedinja). Against the Elite Four, it's lol against Sidney, lol against Pheobe,lol against Glacia (Hail bypasses Wonder Guard). awful against Drake (4 of his5 Pokes can do something to Shedinja), and Steven can damage Shedinja with fourof his six Pokemon (and even then, it's easier to take out Aggron and Metagrosswith something other than Shedinja). So it's a bit of a liability to carryaround. It's my opinion that it's overrated as well, but whatever.

Ninjask: 3/10 - Typical earlygame bug utility, but it evolves later andlacks the movepool of Beautifly/Masquerain

Shedinja: 2-1=1/10 - Mostly a liability for its whole existance. 9 timesout of 10 there will always be something that can stop it from being reallyawesome. Bias comes from being overrated

I'm not too sure how you wanted votes for these guys, but I think that they aredifferent enough to warrant two separate votes.

Ninjask? More like Winjask. 10/10.

I admit, trying to train a Ninjask was a bad decision. Speed Boost on the otherhand... makes it very fast. I don't think that matters in-game however.

3/10

I wanted Shedinja because I thought it was cool. Too. Many. Things. Kill it.

2/10

Nincada is kind of a giant pain to raise, what with its terrible Attack, lackof moves and EXP group. Ninjask is lightning-fast, but it doesn't help much onthe offensive front. Swords Dance is kinda cool, but it sucks up all of yourvaluable TMs to be any good.

Shedinja is quite different. If the Pokemon you're fighting doesn't have aGhost, Dark, Fire, Flying or Rock attack, or any kind of status/damagingweather, they're screwed. The end. Give it Toxic, and it downs a surprisingamount of foes. Norman's Spinda and Linoone, it tanks Wattson's Magneton (watchout for Supersonic), can face half of Tate & Liza, every one of Juan'sPokemon (especially that Double Team Kingdra)... After you get the Heat Badge,you can give it Toxic for some actual damage! E4 can deal with it, though,which is kinda sad. Only Wallace's Gyarados, Wailord and Whiscash and Drake'sKingdra are vulnerable, and SE moves and Hail are commonplace.

Ninjask gets 3/10, it's way too much work to get it to be good.

Shedinja on the other hand, gets a 6/10, due to being useful at base level andtrivializing certain Gym Leaders.

4/10 for Ninjask. Its stats are not very good, has a meh moveset (SD,Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace and Return is the typical set) but it's usefulsometimes and can be a great BPasser ingame.

1.5/10 for Shedinja because it destroys 8th gym. 0.5 bias includedbecause it's... well... IDK... a pokeball thief... floating... thing?

3/10 for Ninjask. Bug is just not a good type this generation, what with thelack of strong moves, and it doesn't help that Nincada is hard to raise, nordoes it that its movepool sucks. Ninjask is lightning fast, but that only meansso much...

And Shedinja gets a 3/10 as well. While it can be a big asset, more often thannot, it's a liability, considering that it's vulnerable to way too many things.

8/10 for Ninjask including 1 point of bias

Excellent sweeper that evolves early and hits hard, but needs all the good TMsto work, good thing they aren't contested too much.

4/10 for Shedinja

Not worth training since it's a pain to switch him in against trainers, notknowing for sure if they have something that harms it. Also has trouble dealingdamage for a while, even if it is invincible in one situation or another.

6/10 for Ninjask

6/10 for Shedinja

2 for one deal, and both are fairly decent.

Shedinja is a gimmick one, but can troll a bit and has Shadow ball and status.

Ninjask needs all the TMs it wants, but turns out gooood.

And baton pass with SD and Speed Boost is awesome shit.

[ZemZem]

Whismur/Loudred/Exploud: 5.81

Good move-pool and good overall stats. 7.5/10.

Uproar access at base is pretty damn good. Too bad it's kinda slow and takes solong to fully evolve. High HP and decent offensive stats when it does becomeExploud however, but it draws its massive coverage from TMs, really. It's kindalike Hoenn's Clefable except it never gets too good no matter how much youoverlevel it, and it takes time to rise from its midgame mediocrity. Stilldecent though. 6/10

Hmmm... what to say...

It's pretty decent for a Normal type, considering it does have bad timesagainst Roxanne (unless you catch it after) and Brawly.

After that, it's just okay.

Not the best, but still good.

6.5/10

Decent.

6.5/10

It has good stats and a decent movepool. Evolution levels are kind of high, andspeed can be lacking. Uproar is great as a move, even if that sound effect isannoying. Did I mention that Whismur is annoying as fuck? And kind of uglytoo...

6/10 - 1 bias

5/10

Not very good. Takes a while to get to Exploud, and both Whismur andLoudred are both pretty underwhelming stat-wise. Gets decentcoverage through TMs, which really is its only saving grace IMO.

3.5/10

Stats aren't half bad, requires a good amount of TM's though to make up for itsshallow Level up movepool. Also, is level 40 REALLY worth the waitfor something average at most.

5.5/10

[ZemZem]

Makuhita/Hariyama: 7.50

If you didn't pick up Torchic, Makuhita will be your first fighting type untilShroomish evolves or until you pick up Machop after three badges.

He's a pretty respectable fighting type. He's crazy bulky, and is prettypowerful to boot. Of course, he's very slow. But you can't have it all. Hismovepool is narrow, but between a Fighting move, Earthquake and Rock Tomb,you've pretty much got it all. Bulk Up can round out the set, or you can gowith Fake Out for some flinching shenanigans. It's movepool is that of ageneric fighting type, but Hariyama tries to differentiate itself with itsmassive 144/60/60 defenses. Base 120 attack is almost as high as Brelooms, andjust as high as Blazikens. It evolves at Lv.24, just as Shroomish does andbefore Machop even makes it to the Machoke stage. So that's pretty neat. If youget one with Thick Fat it can serve itself well against Flannery, which isanother niche Hariyama has over it's fellow fighters. Heck, it even gets Surfif you need a Pokemon to use it, for whatever reason (Fighting-type monotyperun, perhaps)

6/10 - It's a niche Pokemon when compared to its Fighting brethren. Whatit lacks it speed it makes up for in bulk. Unfortunately, this is in-game wherespeed matters more than bulk, and base 50 speed is way too slow.

Slow, but can take hits like a champ and dole them out as well. Unfortunately,Blaziken is a far better Fighting type.

6.5/10

In RS, the traded Makit grows fast, which remedies its speed problem to anextent against generic trainers. Hits hard, can take damage and set up withBulk Up, good against Wattson and invaluable in the E4. Speed is its onlyshortcoming.

8/10

I fucking love this guy.

9.5/10

In R/S, Makuhita grows fast, and can take Bulk Up and Vital Throw everything todeath.

And besides, It's pretty good for earlygame and mid-game and is good lategame.

Not going to add more, read the recent RSE tier list to see Makuhita Hype.

Bad speed? That's why you use VITAL THROW. It's slow, but unlike Parasect overin FRLG, it doesn't have that many weaknesses and is pretty tanky. It's solidright up to Winona, where he then does not fare too well against her and T+L,but that's okay. Great damage as well. 8.5/10.

In fact, my very first playthrough (which consisted of a slightly overlevelledbut not overlevelled enough Sceptile and an underlevelled everything else),Hariyama lay down the finishing blow on Winona's Altaria, after I'd lost like20 times to her. So bias makes 9.5/10.

I think he's saying that since Hariyama's slow, why not use the negativepriority move with perfect accuracy? It's not like you're outspeeding anything,and it's the best Fighting type move it gets for a long, long time.

I'll give it an 7, it's got great bulk and the Fighting type is overallexcellent, excepting Winona and the twins.

Hariyama's only downfall is against Winona and Tate/Liza as well as it's lackof speed, but it's a pretty solid Pokemon. Helps out against Watson's Magenton,Norman, and Sidney. It's movepool is pretty good as well.

7.5/10

Tallying.

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Goldeen/Seaking: 2.01

One of the worst natural movepools out of any of the water types available. Nonatural STAB until 38 when evolved (41 if Goldeen for some dumb reason), withonly Peck and Horn Attack as actual moves until then. Pretty slow, bad defensesand doesn't even have that much attack to make up for it. Also physical watertype when water is special because third gen. :| Even the TM pool sucks. Itpretty much only gets normal moves, but doesn't even get STAB with them.

Against gym leaders, only has an 'advantage' against Flannery... but doesn'thave any water moves yet ._. I guess you can use it to peck Brawly to death,but... no.

Even with bias because sea unicorn: 2/10

Bad movepool, mediocre stats and insufficient Sp. Attack to take advantage ofSTAB bonuses.

3/10.

Terrible movepool, both natural and through TMs. Stats are medicore at best(nothing is higher than base 92). If it wants to abuse that base 92 Atk, it'sgonna have to use Normal-type moves. Otherwise it has to rely on the base 65SpA it has.

2/10

Kinda like a Gyrados with worse stats.

Useable though, and is decent.

5/10

0/10, would give a negative score if I could

Good Rod nets you Goldeens at a maximum level of 15; 10 in the Safari Zone. Youhave to be kidding if you seriously want to train one. At least grindingDratini up results in a beautiful Dragonite, Seaking is a joke that doesn'tjustify the time spent training a Goldeen.

One of the absolute WORST water types that ever existed. Horriblestats and movepool, and is outclassed by pretty much every other type in thegame. It gets a little bit better in the latter gens wherephysical/special attacks aren't solely based on types, but this isn't past 3rdgen.

.1/10

Actually, you can fish one up with the Old Rod at Lv. 10, on Route 102.

Still doesn't make it any good, mono-Normal is terrible without STAB. And youhave to drag it to Lv. 33 for it to become halfway decent. Even then, it'sstill terrible at actually being a Water-type.

2/10, at least it makes a good HM slave, if you get one.

[ZemZem]

Magikarp/Gyarados: 8.25

BEASTY MCBEASTY FISH!

So yeah, Magikarp is pretty useless. But Gyarados is like a reward orsomething. It's too bad it gets no Flying-type moves, and that it's specialattack sucks. So Gyarados doesn't really have any STAB unless you get luckywith Hidden Power Flying. For coverage you're getting Return/Earthquake/RockSmash, but you'll have Dragon Dance to power them up. Gyarados' power without STABtestifies its power. Gyarados is wonderful defensively, with 95/79/100 Defenseswith Intimidate. 125 Attack is great. 81 Speed is reasonably fast. Dragon Danceis awesome.

8/10 - Loses points for worthless Magikarp and no STAB. Otherwise, it's perfect.

10/10.

It's not a god like Pokemon YET. Doesn't have it's stab (waterfall / aquatail), but switch in Gyarados on a physical attacker, and wall him, especiallywhen they are intimidated.

Gyarados is god damn bulky, well worth training a useless piece of Splash andIT HAS DRAGON DANCE. End of story.

Dragon Dance then proceed to your sweep.

8/10 + .5 bias.

8.5/10.

A monster even without STABs. Bulky enough to be able to pull off 2 or 3 DDsingame and rip through everything with anything. It is a bit annoying to train,but you can daycare it until 19 and then evolve (lol). It's not like it wouldbe doing anything against Wallace anyway.

9/10 with bias for being my favourite Pokemon.

(not to mention Magikarp can sweep stuff with Flail if you want it to).

Gyarados is a good Pokemon, but not awesome. In later gens it's a monster, butin R/S/E it has no moves that have both STAB and run off it's massive attackstat. Yes, it does get Dragon Dance, but not until Level 50. Regardless, itdoes have a good movepool and a few great moves like Facade and Earthquake.

7.5/10.

7/10. Good attack, but no STAB, being in the slow experience group AND needingswitch-grinding to be raised while it's a Magikarp hurt. As for the people whomentioned Dragon Dance, I don't know why it'd be worthy of mention when you'dprobably wind up learning it while going through the Elite 4, if at all, sinceit's not learned util level 50. It doesn't help Gyarados's case that in needsTMs to function since its natural learnset is mainly special moves.

You either have to wait for that Magikarp to evolve or catch one late in thegame (at a very competent level before the last gym), but if you wait for solong, you missed on its contributions in times where they could've really beenuseful. So its availability is a minus, as is its reliance on TMs to befunctional and having to wait for lv. 50 to learn DD. Still, if you focus ontraining Gyarados and Gyarados alone (feeding it any Rare Candies you'vecollected during the game), it can easily solo the E4 and its champion. 8/10

Worth the training, and besides, Exp Share exists right after you deliverStevens Letter!

Oh, and DD'd Hyper beam crit'd Metagross on my first run of Saph., if my memoryis correct.

+ 1 bias for that and getting a 10/10

MAGikarp is a liability, but Lv20 comes very quickly.Gyarados itself, even without STAB, is a danger to anything it faces.Intimidate and Dragoon Dance are large plus points for it.

Plus I fucking love Gyarados.

95%.

Edited July 14, 2012 by ZM456

[ZemZem]

Azurill/Marill/Azumarill: 7.00

9/10

COmes early in Emerald, and Huge Power is awesome.

But OP in 4th gen, great in 3rd though.

Not getting STAB for that delicious base attack is disapointing. Not having anyset up moves is also bad. It's also as slower than Swampert. But something diesonce it gets to attack. It's only got Normal-type moves, Iron Tail, Dig andBrick Break (you can try SubPunch though if you're gutsy) for moves, but with150 base attack it doesn't matter. Early evolution rocks. It just wantsWaterfall to be physical, and maybe for Aqua Jet to exist.

Can also go HM Slave route because it learns 5 HM moves.

7.5/10 - Too slow and has no STAB to use that attack with.

Speed Boost slowly boosts your speed by giving you +1's at the end of everyturn, Huge Power doubles the actual stat, like you said.

Anyway, 7.5/10.

>Huge Power

>Nice HP

>Comes early

>Can evolve very early as well

____

>Mediocre movepool

>No STAB

>Very slow

Massive attack and is quite a tank to boot with 100/80/80 defensive bases. Itsmovepool is... shallow for its attack stat, to say the least, which is as muchof a cross against it as bad stats would be anywhere else, but at least it getBrick Break and Iron Tail for the Elite Four. While it sucks as Marill, it doesevolve quickly but... even then, it doesn't get any good moves until Strengthso you'll have to live with Defense Curl + Rollout which, while a cool combo,is not the most reliable way to sweep through normal trainers.

7/10

It's funny how with even with Huge Power it's likely to be the worst Pokemonoffensively on your team for a while due to that unimpressive movepool. Neverquite gets really good no matter what you do; fails to outspeed elementaryenemies a lot. But yeah, HUGE POWER. 6/10

[ZemZem]

Geodude/Graveler/Golem: 5.64

7/10

Solid for early/mid game and then is resorted to Explosion-bot.

Is pretty decent overall.

Slow as heck, but can do its job of being a wall.

6.5/10.

5/10. Rock/Ground is a mixed bag; good offensively (other than this being Gen3, there your strongest Rock move is Rock Slide), but god-awful defensively;six weaknesses, two of which are double weaknesses. It doesn't help that thisis Hoenn, which gives Rock/Ground types a big "screw you" lategame.

Slow and terrible typing for the second half of the game.

however before then, he happens to tank Wattson, Flannery, Norman, Winona sohe's really good at the start and through the middle (even if he kinda diesagainst like all of the remaining gym leaders + E4). Higher rating for R/Swhere he doesn't fall apart on the Champion battle, so I'll even it out

5.5/10

Geodude's kinda got immediate utility. It's an easy victory for it againstWattson, and it can do alright vs Flannery. Rock-type rocks against both Normanand Winona. Then it's pretty much served its use. Tate and Liza are incrediblyunkind to it. Wallace/Juan... just lol. Drake, Glacia and Sidney prey on itslow special defense, and all of Phoebe's Pokemon have a way to break throughGolem (Will-o-Wisp, Special Moves). It's the only Rock-type you'll get forquite a while (next is Solrock/Lunatone iirc, and then Rhyhorn), so it's prettyunique for most of its helpful period.

5.5/10 - Three battles where it rocks (punny :D), and one where it'skinda good. The rest, just forget about him. He and Marshtomp are your onlysurefire ways to beat Wattson, so I'm giving that more weight than the otherthree. Geodude, Solrock and Skarmory are your best options for Norman, so I'malso weighting that a bit higher.

5/10

Can learn useful HM's like strength and rock smash. A solid fighter early on inthe game especially when it evolves into Gravler and can easily solo the thirdgym if trained well. However later on in the game its usefulness against gymleaders begins to wane, and it is also a problem oyu need a connecter cord toactually get a golem instead of using wireless DS communications like in thenewer games.

[ZemZem]

Nosepass: 0.93

Rule of thumb: Defensive Rock-types suck pre Gen.4. Then they get awesome.

Not like defenses matter ingame when you need offense and speed, since theenemies are pushovers.

Nosepass' highest offenses are both base 45. To put it in perspective, onlyMinun, Wobbuffet and Luvdisc have lower attack (and Grumpig ties with it). Ohbut hey, it gets Thunderbolt.

Max Sp.Attack Modest Nosepass Thunderbolt vs no EVs, neutral nature Gyarados:72.5% - 85.8%

Yeah, >.<

135 defense is cool. 45 offenses and 30 speed are most definitely not.

0/10

Has some of the worst attacking stats in the game. Bulkiness doesn't mean muchwhen you have a weakness to the game's most common type, either.

2/10 with bias because nose and stuff. IDK I want to reserve my 0/1 for later.At least Nosepass is available relatively early.

i hope you're not adding aron and evos to that list because they're pretty muchone of the best in-game tanks rse-wise

also i wish i knew about this SOONER because this list is looking pretty damnwhack. taillow and swellow aren't top tier, normal/flying is a terrible typecombo. why is makuhita/hariyama so low??? shroomish/breloom aren't that great,unless you have the patience for sporemish, which nobody does. STAB prio ispretty beefy, but lategame it falls pretty short. asdf even with pickuputility, ziggy isn't better than a lot of the things it currently is. slakingand co are much better even with traunt. marill is not good at all, a terriblepokemon that pales in comparison to wingull/pelipper, who has a clutchearlygame and hm utility mid-endgame. surf and fly on one pokemon is p cool.why is abra lower than magikarp if the latter requires even more babying, whichis mainly the reason i saw it voted down?? trade evolutions aren't a pain inthe ass to get, and alakazam and kadabra have the exact same level up movepool,meaning you can get a clutch psychic user way earlygame. ralts is just too weakand gains exp too slow for it to be used. sure in the end it hasmore defenses, but it isn't going to be ohko'ing anything as often as alakazam.

also seedot and evos aren't better than the lotad gang. kyogre and instant raingives more advantages than groudon and sun.

aaaaaanyway, nosepass is that pokemon you'll see once a playthrough, and thatbeing in the first gym. kind of a dick to kill that early on, but with all theadvantages given through the routes, it's easier than you'd expect. other thanthat, pretty much every other rock type is more useful, the other two in itscatching area (aron and geodude) to name a few.

earlygame dick, but nothing past that, a solid 1/10 because it's a pretty coolconcept.

Nosepass is dumb.

Those attacking stats. Are dumb.

Nosepass is useless.

1/10. I'd make it 0 but I for one like that big red nose.

On topic: 1/10 for Nosepass. Difficult to find and poor offensive stats. It'shard to kill with those defences but it lacks the right stats to make good use ofits interesting movepool (naturally learns Rock Slide and Thunderwave prettyearly, has Thunderbolt access). Either use Graveler if you want a rock-type(its Rock Throw will hit harder than Nosepass's Rock Slide), or don't bother atall.

Fallentine expresses a lot of points I find very difficult to agree with.Having to grind a Pokemon is definitely detrimental to efficiency, which iswhat the basis of what we are evaluating the options in this series of threads.Otherwise, we'd have Bagon and Beldum at the top of our standings.

I also don't see how teaching Aerial Ace to Swellow is of any concern when itlearns Wing Attack much earlier (and it has the same BP). I do agree that werated it too highly because even Facade in combination with Guts gives itabsolutely no way of dealing with somebody like Phoebe or Steven. Also, ittakes time and effort to get it status'd when you want that to happen. That TASargument about it being such a fantastic Pokemon is void to me because what yousee in the TAS is never going to be replicated without tool assistance.Endeavour is also highly unreliable.

1.5/10

Shit, but comes early with gimiick moves.

PITA to find

Crap stats

Movepool does not match stats

It comes early IF you can find one, then it sucks.

1/10 - 1 because FUCK Roxanne's Nosepass.

0/10