Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Refa]

LOOK LIVELY IT IS THE ONE HUNDREDTH POST OF THE THREAD

DO I GET A FREE PIZZA OR SOMETHING??

My vote on grass is actually semi-serious by the way scorri. Just sayin' And I'm not moving it at the moment because his post in reaction towards Levy seems extremely defensive.

I really don't like this explanation. First of all, what is a semi-serious vote? Can anyone tell me? Secondly, I don't like his reason for holding it because firstly nothing in Grassbridger's post struck me as extremely defensive, and secondly how is being defensive a scum tell. Just comes across to me as scum making an excuse to votepark.

Didn't really like SB's post WRT Kay's post. If you didn't like it, why not vote kay? She's the one more likely to give you a favorable reaction from what you are doing.

Didn't really like BBM's vote on Kay. I don't really see any actual reasoning for his vote on kay either honestly. The only question in response was "Why am I suspicious for doing this?" he didn't actually state any real suspicions of Kay in his post. The vote kinda just...happened.

Maybe it's just me, but it kind of bothers me that on one hand he's complaining that SB isn't voting Kay but on the other hand is complaining that BBM is voting Kay for the wrong reasons on top of not actually having a definite stance on Kay. Definitely bothering me more than Scum Bait.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

Bizz's vote on me annoys me because I have pretty much no way of defending myself from it. "easy votes aren't scummy but yours was scummy because it was easy" =/

Eury seems to be kind forcing a lot of opinions, not really too happy with it.

I can agree with the former, but not really getting your case with the latter. Are you finding her scummy for that?

vanille

hope you're not softclaiming vanilla, or will be rather chagrined

also I agree with what Scorri said about SB. Regardless of whether or not coaching is scummy, if SB thinks doesn't like it, why is he voting the coach and not the trainee?

I think you fucked up there, captain.

Also agreeing with BBM's logic in regards to Kay.

[Zkirsche]

currently want people to spampost less. if there are more than 20 pages by the end of day 1 i'm subbing out (note: not actually subbing out if there are more than 20 pages by the end of day 1.)

+1

I don't know what's worse: the walls in CYOR or these spam posts.

Maybe it's just me, but it kind of bothers me that on one hand he's complaining that SB isn't voting Kay but on the other hand is complaining that BBM is voting Kay for the wrong reasons on top of not actually having a definite stance on Kay. Definitely bothering me more than Scum Bait.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out flaws in two different people which contradict one another. Isn't it true that both of those things are bad? If so, why should Shinori just mention one of them?

Interested in what his actual read on Kay is of course.

Not reading SB's coaching thing as scummy. Coaching is obviously null, but bad logic doesn't mean scummy logic imo and it doesn't feel graspy or forced like scummy logic.

The first sentence was a joke, and the second one was a sort of valid complaint considering the vote for which Grassbridger is under scrutiny from by Bizz happened on the first page. Yeah you can catch scum ED1 but that doesn't mean you are going to for sure, off the first 5-10 posts in the game.

I think the point is that there really is no need to make that complaint. People understand that already and are just poking at each other, with that in mind going "well there's no information ,what more do you want" is a bit on the touchy side.

Agree with people that Eury should do more scumhunting. Imo forced reads are the worst so I'm going to

##Unvote

##Vote:Eurykins

I feel like Kay's vote against Poly is a bit of an OMGUS, moreso than the others in the thread. The reasoning for attacking Poly seems kinda weak and the bit about not saying enough before leaving is one of her arguments against BBM (although Poly didn't specify what more she should have said, being unspecific is par for the course with him).

[Shinori]

I explained why it was semi-serious in my last post.

Also I asked SB why he wasn't voting kay, not because I think kay is scum or town, but because he was accusing her of coaching. Thus he was saying it sounded like she was a scum member coaching another scum member. Thus my confusion, on to why he wouldn't vote the person actually doing the 'scummy' thing.

And I'm sorry that I didn't like a vote that didn't actually state reasons for why they were seriously voting said person in a post. It seemed kind of empty on the reasoning department, but I hear they might be getting funds in the near future.

[Percivalé]

Guys my depression is acting up which I didn't expect but it's making this harder to play than I thought. Whoops. I'll give it some time.

Also there's something else that bothers me about bbm that has nothing to me with me and it probably IS that he's posting to his scum meta kinda.

[The Objection!]

Hope you haven't had too much fun without me!

Now let me entertain you guys with a comment on almost everyone here:

Bizz = Has comment on almost everything that has happened in the game, I doubt scum would be this dedicated. I don't really understand his case on SB though...

BBM = Opinions are reasonable, but the Kay vote is kinda weird. Why exactly are you finding her scummy?

Kay = So far so good, no comment. I never understood the coaching case btw, I don't get what's wrong in offering tips in a mafia game.

SB = I feel like he's making up reasons to vote on Refa, vote tracking isn't fake contribution since it's useful for everyone.

Vennobennu = His selfvote -> empty unvote thing isn't the best, also if scorri hasn't posted at the time of your post, why bother voting her (since it didn't look like a joke)? Do you have any actual reads as opposed to prods?

Kaoz = lol

Objection = I never knew someone can even play this good, obv town.

Refa = SB is voting you, any comments to that?

##Unvote ##Vote: Vennobennu

Yes, I'm aware this is hypocritical.

[Percivalé]

Aside from the fact I felt SB's vote was easy (maybe I'm thinking more "halfassed") a lot of what he's been saying feels the same way to me too. Again, it dors matter whether easy votes are scumny or not--you have to look at the context. And the way I vote people/build "early cases" on people is how I determine who's scum, so the way you react to my votes on you affects my read on you a lot.

[Percivalé]

Doesn't * sorry ugh I don't mean to spam but that typo was bugging me. And I was ninja'd by objection, not really sure if I like his listpost all that much. Objection, do you find SB scummy? I agree that I don't like Venno's scorrivote either though, for the same reason.

(Wrt bbm again if someone focuses on something for more than one post and I remember it it seems like a big deal to me because I don't do a lot of rereading in big games)

[Refa]

There's nothing wrong with pointing out flaws in two different people which contradict one another. Isn't it true that both of those things are bad? If so, why should Shinori just mention one of them?

Interested in what his actual read on Kay is of course.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out flaws (even flaws from opposing viewpoints), it's just that...it annoys me that he was complaining about peoples' stances on a person without ever actually talking about said person. Not particularly sure if that always has scum intent, I mean I guess I could see a townie writing that, but it just bothered me enough that I felt it worth mentioning.

Also there's something else that bothers me about bbm that has nothing to me with me and it probably IS that he's posting to his scum meta kinda.

How so?

Refa = SB is voting you, any comments to that?

Yeah. I hope he stops voting me. :(

[Percivalé]

Refa prims said the exact same thing why aren't you asking him (hint he's better at explaining meta than I am......)

[The Objection!]

Doesn't * sorry ugh I don't mean to spam but that typo was bugging me. And I was ninja'd by objection, not really sure if I like his listpost all that much. Objection, do you find SB scummy? I agree that I don't like Venno's scorrivote either though, for the same reason.

Slightly, in a weird way that is hard to explain. Venno's currently pinging me more though

Yeah. I hope he stops voting me. :(

This actually caused me to lol, but I'm talking about how SB remarked that your read on him is waffly.

[Shin]

Yo, I return from that thing I do!

First of all, the whole Kay shindig seems like a massive slapfight. I'm not particularly convinced that coaching or any form of advice giving is indicative of alignment. Still, Kay pointing out the obvious achieved nothing too. Plus, her response to Poly was incredibly defensive, almost like a knee-jerk reaction. On the flipside, Poly's arguments aren't amazing, I don't quite understand his Kay vote, so I guess Kay could go either way.

SB actually bothers me, mostly for reasons other people have stated but he suddenly turns to Refa, ignoring a lot of the votes against him, as if he's hoping they'll go away. I'm definitely leaning scum on SB.

Venno, despite being the centre of this mess has actually done very little. His posts are horribly empty and he's quite happy to let people argue around him. Having no reads and voting on someone who'd said nothing at that point is really bad. Plus, asking people for their opinions when they're inevitably going to post is filler.

##Unvote

##Vote: Vennobennu

Eli has yet to say something about not coaching, maybe trams or bicycles would be more interesting. Objection, actually post something, your list is basically full of echos and questions. Why would Bizz paying attention to everything make him not scum? That's kinda stoopid.

[charlie_]

hope you're not softclaiming vanilla, or will be rather chagrined

i'm not, and i hope there aren't any vanillas in the game

realpost coming soon

[eclipse]

Vhaltz has been subbed in for Paperblade!

(now I gotta fix up ISOs and all that)

[Elieson]

This is his first game I think; I don't think it's that big a deal atm.

5 man scumteam wouldn't be too out of the ordinary in a 18p game.

Also I just realized how ironic it is that a bunch of people signed up to play with Kaoz and then he got a role where he can't post at all. ;_;

Prims, did Kaoz query you?

just crumbed the scumbers, like a boss.

a guest* lmao

Yeah the coaching discussion was kinda pointless and SB's Venno vote feels really easy to me, he didn't say much else wrt scumhunting either. I don't see why Kay would want to coach her scumbuddy in public.

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

Other things, I feel weird about Elie because it feels like he's playing it safe. Also Paperblade is doing that thing he does as scum where he just kinda sits back and makes remarks about the game. Poly's handwaving of Venno's selfvote sorta bugged me but Paper's vote on him for it kinda bugged me more.

Lol playing it safe. There's not a whole lot to talk about IMO. I'm rereading the thread and seeing more nitpicking than anything else.

@Kay- My Shinori vote wasn't top tier, but it was also RVS and I thought it more worthwhile than simply voting someone randomly. And then I didn't have anything better to switch to after he responded. I didn't give my opinions about Venno right away because until #37 I thought the votes on him there were mostly being facetious. I gave my opinion after that so I don't see the problem here. And consider that of the people who didn't vote Venno early on (everyone except Prims and Bizz), I was the only person to actually give an opinion about him at any point at all. Everyone else gave no opinion whatsoever. Why am I specifically suspicious for this?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Kay

Bizz- why does it not matter if he's new? He apparently has more experience than I thought he did, but still, newer players are bound to do random stuff like that.

Y So Defensive? I suspect that Kay voted you to get a reaction out of you, more than finding you actually scummy, and I think it's funny that it actually did. IF she did find you scummy at the time of the vote, well cool she got a reaction out of you anyway.

IMO SB's coaching thing is bad because he calls out one player for doing it and not the other who did it just a few posts prior to his, and (still hasn't commented on it, more just withdrew it), aaaaaaand he finds Refa scummy for something that is absolutely null at best. Refa posted vote patterns in thread, which is concrete evidence organization. It doesn't make him look any better or any worse by lining up the facts that we already know, and calling his content empty because of it doesn't fly, since he actually had a reason for voting for you. (That's more vote logic than numerous other players, such as Kay on BBM and BBM on Kay, and most of RVS in general, myself included).

Shinori's doing nothing scummy fmpov, so my vote is useless on him. SO

##Unvote (Shinori)

##Vote SB

##FoS BBM

(because dat reaction to Kay regarding her vote on him. I don't like that he's defending his super early early ED1 vote so hard)

[Vhaltz]

Just passing by to let you guys know that being in a shitty timezone in relation to Eclipse's means I messaged for sub in when I woke up this morning and didn't get to know whether I'd actually play until just now when it's almost dinner time.

Have to finish catching up on the thread and write up stuff, expect a post within the next 5 hours or so, currently kind of tired since I just finished classes but hopefully I won't take that long.

[charlie_]

Is this necessary to bring up? Both town and scum could find it useful so it's not alignment-relevant. Padding point imo.

I figured that Refa's votals thing was padding itself, so yeah I thought it was scummy. Something Refa posted in the meantime thought makes me think I'm barking up the wrong tree.

@SB- Why was what Venn did worse than what Kay did, to you?

His reaction to votes on him (lack of addressing votes and his empty unvote feeling like he was trying to just get the votes off of him more than anything else.)

Objection's opinions post is pretty bad imo considering most of it isn't actually reads, I guess you could count the ones on me/Vennu as reads but then he dresses up his Vennu vote as a prodvote. I don't really care if he acknowledges the hypocrisy, in that case couldn't town be doing the prodvotes too? Probably my biggest scumread right now.

SB actually bothers me, mostly for reasons other people have stated but he suddenly turns to Refa, ignoring a lot of the votes against him, as if he's hoping they'll go away. I'm definitely leaning scum on SB.

There are a lot of things you can say about me, but saying that I haven't responded to the votes on me is an absolute lie, especially considering that I responded to one of them in the post I attacked Refa (which is scummy why?)

Elieson: would you rather I continued to pursue a point that I didn't believe in any more? I don't really know what I'm supposed to do there.

[charlie_]

Also hi Vhaltz.

[Elieson]

Elieson: would you rather I continued to pursue a point that I didn't believe in any more? I don't really know what I'm supposed to do there.

I'm not gonna try to give you answers on the other points but

IMO you're supposed to respond to points, not just dismiss them and say "Oh my mind's changed", because it's like an easy cop out from having to respond to pressure. You could say "At the time, I thought X, but now I think Y because Z", but you didn't really do that, you just went straight to "Yea I realized after I said X that I should've thought Y". That renders discussion aimed at you useless. You also flew over my primary reason for voting for you: Your derp vote on Refa

[charlie_]

"I don't like Kay's coaching"
"Coaching isn't scummy because scum can do it outside of the thread"
"I guess I was wrong"

That's pretty much what happened. Do you think there needed to be more than that?

[Elieson]

Well you found it scummy in the first place, so can you like, explain that part at least? You didn't think you were wrong when you made the post, so why was it scummy to you to begin with?

[charlie_]

I figured Kay could've possibly been Vennu's buddy who was trying to tell him how to avoid suspicion but I forgot they could do that OC anyway.

[Vhaltz]

Btw can somebody do a regular votecount with which players are voting for whom? I'd do it myself but I'm kind of pressed for time

[Zkirsche]

I feel like we've spent way too much time talking about SB's coaching point.

Votals

Sb(5) - Bizz, Prims, Refa, Scorri, Elieson

Kay(2) - Polydeuces, BBM

Polydeuces(1) - Kay

Shinori(2)- Eury, Refa

Eurykins(1) - me

Refa(1) - SB

Venno(2)- Shin, Objection

Prims(1) - Grassbridger

Scorri(1) - Vennobennu

Not Voting(1) - Vhaltz

Can't vote(1) - Kaoz

Think that's right.

[Elieson]

Ok fine, it's a null point at best

[Vhaltz]

This post is what I had in my observer QT up to #98.

Coaching coaching coaching SB coaching SB coaching coaching

This makes up for most of what I've seen being discussed this game, seriously. I'm hesitant to clear SB immediately because I generally can't read him worth crap but there's this huge wagon on him with almost everybody discussing the same thing about him and I don't like it one bit, it reeks of mislynch fodder.

I'm specially wary of several people that have commented on SB so far (pretty certain there's at least one scum sitting on SB or throwing dirt on him atm).

First is scorri, who has little to no content to their name other than an SB vote built entirely on parroting of earlier reasons for the wagon (writing up a big paragraph on it when just saying "I agree that this is scummy" after quoting the earlier arguments would've made no difference). His scumreads at that point amounted to all three popular targets (SB, Shinori and Venno) which is way too convenient. His only posts afterwards are two token comments that don't seem to go anywhere. Feels like scum coasting by under the radar and parking their vote on a convenient spot.

Second is Refa, who was also quick to jump on the wagon and had little to add to the existing case. There's how he brought up an argument against SB defending Vennu and that argument was hypocritical in the sense that there's not much that SB could say about it either. I like him more than Scorri though because I could see that being accidental in itself and coming from town. His post had a few questions and pokes here and there, which looks like he is looking for more information to go on aside from his SB vote, which is cool but could be faked and isn't enough to compensate the convenient wagon hop in my eyes. Leaning slightly scum, I'll attempt to establish priorities at the end of the post.

Third is Eury. His only post is a brief reads post, the kind of post that town tends to be happy with and that is useful for scum as appeasement, plus it includes some reads that feel forced and useless null reads that pad it up. Prims already commented on this in a way that implies that Eury probably does this often or something, and I'm completely void of meta on anybody on the site other than SB, BBM and Prims really so idk about that point. Either way, my biggest issue with this post isn't really just that it's a brief reads post with possible appeasement intent, but the way all of the reads are listed. Everything that isn't a null read is worded awkwardly, there's frequent use of the word "weird" in contexts that appear to imply scumminess, which reads like painting people as scummy without having to explain why X or Y they did is scummy.
I was almost 100% sure this was scum when he voted Shinori, because he mentioned Shin among the "contentless" towards the end of the post, and voting that over the ones he thought were "weird" in a scummy way was really scummy. Then I noticed that these were two different people. Blegh.

Either way I'm pretty sure that at the time Shinori was the second major wagon after SB*, so the vote is still very convenient. Specially considering that there's no sense of priority and added reasoning of why Shinori over the rest (his opinion on Objection amounted to pretty much the same, so why Shinori over him specifically?).
*(correct me if I'm wrong, I'm used to having votecounts instead of having to manually track votes)

Fourth is BBM. I liked Kay's vote on BBM early on in the day because I thought it was voting him for parking on Shinori. BBM never really commented anything on Shinori's response and how it affected his vote, and he continued to stick around making side mentions of stuff in the thread ED1 without moving his vote (I recall at least one ED1 post that was pretty fluffed up). His #77 made me feel a little better about him because the explanation of his train of thought felt genuine... except I looked back after reading #90 and noticed it could be genuine and still come from scum, really. His #90 irks me the most because it feels entirely pointless. Why does it matter which of the two of Venno/Kay SB voted as long as he thought there was scum to scum coaching going on? There's also how SB specified an additional reason to vote Venno over Kay (second post in the game by Venno with an empty unvote which coooould be seen as appeasement [i thought it was null but I could see an ED1 read coming from there]). This whole post feels like an intentional misrepresentation to make SB look worse than he already does.


Priorities would go something like
Scorri > Eury/BBM > Refa >> rest.

Townie list includes SB for reeking of mislynch fodder and Kay. The reason why Kay is in here is because I also thought Poly's post where he voted Kay was pretty oddly/poorly worded for what he appeared to mean, and I could see a townie being misguided onto an OMGUS vote because of that, I feel like scum would be more likely to focus on arguing against Poly's points while their vote is off somewhere else.

Continued in next post for readability