Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Percivalé]

I want Bizz to give a reason for why I'm suspicious. She said that she partially did, except she didn't. She said that she agrees that I'm posting to my scum meta, but then when someone asked her what that scum meta was, she redirected them to Prims.

I don't want to empty unvote but I don't have the time to provide a vote with reasons until I get back. ##Vote: BBM though, I like this and I already partially stated why but I'll elaborate later.

Hey so BBM try not to demand something of me that I already stated I was gonna do before I had to leave. That aside, I read BBM's cum meta as like, he's a lot more defensive of himself? And before I get "but being defensive isn't always scummy," I know it's not-I- actually know a few people here who are usually more defensive of themselves when they're town (Shinori, for example, which is I don't think he's worth voting right now), and that isn't the point. I'll have to pull up specific examples but sometimes BBM will spend most of a post defending himself or clearing something up and then end it with a question or a prod, like his last post.

[Percivalé]

OH MY GOD THAT TYPO PLEASE DON'T LOOK AT IT HOLY SHIT FUCK ME

[Elieson]

Omg that typo I'm still at work but I just have to say lol so lolllll

[Shinori]

Gonna get a post down tonight but since grass just isn't doing anything my vote is absolutely being worthless at the moment so I'll post another thing later.

[Shinori]

Gonna get a post down tonight but since grass just isn't doing anything my vote is absolutely being worthless at the moment so I'll post another thing later.

[Shinori]

Oh apparently double post. SORRY.

[BBM]

It's just how I post to order parts where I'm defending myself before parts where I'm attacking other people. As for why that's comprising the majority of my posts, dunno. Having some difficulty getting reads this game I feel like it's the same people making most of the posts and I'm not really finding them suspicious mostly.

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<BBM> lol

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<scorri> welp

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

<Primsdfghjkl> BBM's cum meta

;///

[MRDRHAWK]

That typo... oh my.

*drops pants*

[eclipse]

I despise votals. ;/

Day 1 votals!

BBM (1) - Bizz

Eurykins (1) - kirsche

Grassbridger (1) - Shinori

Kay (2) - BBM, Polydeuces

Objection! (2) - Prims, SB

Polydeuces (1) - Kay

Prims (1) - Grassbridger

SB (3) - Elieson, scorri, Shin

scorri (2) - Vhaltz

Shinori (3) - Eurykins, Refa, Vennobennu

Vennobennu (1) - Objection!

Not voting - No one~!

Tick tick! Note that I might not be here right at phase end; if so, sit tight until I return, and no posting after the day ends. You have a bit under 24 hours!

Edited November 27, 2013 by eclipse

[Prims]

Wait we're that low on time? What the hell?

Consolidation:

I will support a Kay lynch. I still prefer an Objection lynch. I'm okay with a SB lynch and will not support lynching Shinori.

Eury isn't as scummy to me than Objection is; I thought Objection's post looked worse for reasons explained when I voted him. Eury's opinions are less hazy.

Kay and Grass need to post. kirsche feels unmemorable and mite b scum.

[Kay]

Well, the coaching is forgivable enough (especially since I kinda did the same thing), but then when you were called on it, you more or less ignored it aside from a very brief response to SB calling you on it in #53. The BBM-Shinori thing that you said later on also irked me; why would BBM need to examine a wagon that's heavily RVS votes before dropping a completely unrelated vote? Furthermore, BBM's vote itself read like an RVS vote and nothing more, which is at worst a nulltell at this point.

I guess I worded my point wrong, too; it's more how you reacted when others questioned the bit with Venno than the interaction itself. Calling the interaction scummy would be hypocritical and I'm not going to make that error.

I admitted I was coaching and asked why it was scummy. What more ought I to have said about it?

RVS votes, yeah. But if multiple people are dropping semi-serious RVS votes, there's something to it. And yeah, I think people in general should address things, but if one isn't playing the game remotely seriously yet, it means less what they choose to disregard, because it's not like they're talking about this and ignoring that, they're just totally doing their own thing.

Kay didn't really respond to my vote about why it was scummy for me to not talk about Venno and okay for everyone else to also not talk about him. And then her Poly suspicion is kind of weak. All it really is is "what you said is wrong" without really looking for scum intent of any sort. I think Vhaltz's style of argument and ignoring what he wants to is suspicious but he at least is explaining the scum intent that he sees overall in people's posts.

Scum are more likely to grasp for bad arguments. Making a bad argument therefore makes sense as a scummy thing and phrasing it in that noncommittal way doesn't help. He just said stuff was "questionable", "curious", and "off". Sounds waffly imo.

I kinda don't like how Venno said I might be scum trying to buddy with him, then prodded scorri over voting for me, and hasn't said anything more about it.

[Prims]

Kay is that absolutely all you have to say right now?

[BBM]

I guess Kay's response to my initial vote is OK but her vote on Poly still feels weak and the reasoning she gave just now is too semantic for my tastes. Saying something is questionable and off definitely indicates a suspicion, and considering he backed it up with a vote, how is it waffly? And then in the next sentence she qualifies her Venno suspicion with "kinda" which is in the same line.

For some reason I thought this was only the 24 hour mark. So looking at the current wagons- I read Prims's reasoning for the Objection vote again; I guess I could go for that. I'll reread SB in the morning and come to a judgement there. Shinori has like one post (#87) where he actually states suspicions, after that it's all just elaborating when people ask him questions. Whether or not I'd consolidate here depends on the post he promised a little while back I suppose.

Other than that the only suspicion I have atm is Vhaltz.

[Vhaltz]

Here for like two minutes gotta rush to practicals.

##Unvote: Scorri

##Vote: Grass

Want to see something by you by the time I get back.

Also Eclipse didn't typo I'm doublevoter

[Shinori]

Also Eclipse didn't typo I'm doublevoter

You should not do this. >_>

[scorri]

Real quick before I need to go pack: I'm pretty sure that Grass spent most of this day doing interviews and stuff and as such has had extremely limited access to a computer. He probably should have mentioned something about this but probably just forgot.

[Percivalé]

tbh I don't find any issues with Vhaltz's claim, like at all. that read really legit to me

[BBM]

Vhaltz, why are you pursuing a prodvote over your previously stated suspicions?

[Shinori]

It read legit to me as well. I still don't agree with him claiming so early.

Before I forget.

##Unvote:

[Vhaltz]

Claim was due to danger of quickhammers in deadline shenanigans, my schedule today is specially full and there will be large intervals at which I won't be able to check the thread.

Haven't fully caught up, have comments on Prims and BBM but I'll elaborate at lunchtime.

[Shinori]

I figured Kay could've possibly been Vennu's buddy who was trying to tell him how to avoid suspicion but I forgot they could do that OC anyway.

This post seems really poor and awful.

I don't know if it's just me, but his retort rubbed me the wrong way- has a fairly snide tone in it. Keeping my vote on him for now.

I'm trying to get this whole little rp of House thing going on here. I guess I'm doing it a little wrong. Nice empty post though.

OK, I can agree with the logic behind this (wouldn't make MY biggest scumread, but w/e), but if he is your biggest scumread, why aren't you voting for him? I hope you have a good reason for this!

Also some general comments to wrap this block of quotes up.

-I don't like Shin's initial case on SB, especially how he misreps SB's actions. And then his vote on SB reads like a self fulfilling prophecy, which is that he's ultra defensive. I don't get how that's a scum tell, and I think early on town generally tends to be more defensive than scum.

-I like Vhaltz's read posts as a whole, so I'm just going to list off my cons rather than saying I AGREE WITH THIS a lot of times. OK, I can agree scorri not being on is bad, but from personal experience she's done it as town as well and eh...I dunno, having a lurker as your #1 scumread seems kind of...I hesitate to say lazy but...perhaps indecisive. Also not really bothered by Elieson (yeah, Protown SK) and I'm not quite sure why you are either except confirmation bias. Explain??

Anyways, lynch priority atm is...

Shinori > Shin > Objection > Everyone Else

OK, I know this sounds bad, but I'm honestly not sure which of Shin/Shinori bothers me more atm. :\ And I guess I'll have to listen to Prim's amazing meta read on BBM so that I can understand...the truth!!...!

So, do you think SB is town? And if so, Why?

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection!!

okay so why is this joker doing the exact same thing eury did when people have already complained about eury's posts. he's also voting venno over a question and not a scum read which is laughable and i think the "self-awareness" is more likely to come from scum nervous about being called out #ArmchairPsychology101

SB if Objection's your biggest scumread then why aren't you voting him......

Vhaltz sucks for suspecting Eury but being OK with Objection who is doing the same things but worse. Also he's putting too much thought into an offhand remark I made about a gut read. SB struck me as worse than Elie because Elie's questions read like he thought they'd get something done at least.

scorri is like hard town lol. This is a meta read though.

Anyone see what I see?

Of course I have a good reason! ...I forgot to switch gg me.

##Unvote

##Vote: Objection

I have a reason that isn't to do with in thread (well kind of) for unvoting Refa and I'm not really gonna say more on that unless I claim or something. Find me scummy for it w/e but I have a reason. At least I hope so.

Eury, are you keeping your Shinori vote down for tone or is there something else in that post you don't like?

I'll give it a minute.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Why did Prims have to point out that SB wasn't voting objection for SB to swap to Objection? Also just by stating you have a reason, by not stating that reason I count it as an empty unvote. Combined with all of your previous play in this thread I call it bad.

1. His first two three posts were, quite frankly, useless. No RVS vote incorporated into any one of them, either, which seemed a bit derpy (nothing to start the ball rolling).

2. Votes Grass and incorporates "Logic" into it (I was guessing it was his half-trolling/joking RVS post, but later he says it's actually a 'semi-serious' vote).

3. Garbles about Poly's sig and Bizz.

4. His comment to my vote- "You gotta do better than that, Eury"- struck me as both arrogant and condescending, along with his latest comment/post that I quoted earlier.

Though I agree with Grass opinion regarding Grass's earlier response being defensive, Shinori's actions/posting in itself have been quirky. He's seemingly posting frequently, but not much (productivity wise) is coming out of it. That, and his tone itself also sits ill with me.

1. The ball was already rolling, and you don't always have to vote to get a ball rolling anyway. Pretty sure I got attention relatively quickly by doing nothing.

2. What can I say, I like smart ass remarks.

3. Damn, most scummy thing in the world. Made a few jokes. *Holds out hands* Lock me up, throw away the key. Ya caught me.

4. Am I doing this house thing okay? I couldn't tell.

You seem to be one to talk about posts being productive. This entire time you could have been trying to find real scum you've been tunneling onto me the entire time with no real reasons or statements on any other players so far in the game. I mean unless you count post #73.

I think that's it- Oh wait, something I saw while going over post #73:

Blah. Ate bad food last night, stomach's paying for it now. ;x

Venn's RVS post (and the other votes on top of him), I saw purely as RVS shinanegans and nothin' more, and he's been posting more since then. Fine for now.

Shinori seems to be acting weird in terms of posting multiple times before throwing up a vote himself and going off on random tangents.

Bizz is being Bizz.

Grass's swap to Prims for voting was weird, but hard to see it as anything more, though his reply to Bizz (post #42) felt a bit off/forced/a little defensive?

Poly seems to be posting as vibrantly/chaotically as usual. Can't gather much from him.

SB votes on Venn due to him (Venn) not reacting/responding to what I saw as RVS joking votes. Can't say I'm a fan of his logic/vote.

Kay's vote on BBM seems...weird. Moves from "Not a huge fan of your Shinori vote" to this. Not sure if it's general 'expectations' from someone's posting, or something else.

Objection's posts so far seem...empty, in the sense of contributing nothing to the actual game.

SK's posts have been neutral so far.

Prim's miller claim- interesting.

Shin, Kirsche: Not posted much of anything, so null atm.

##unvote

##Vote Shinori

It's hard to tell that this was one of Eury's earlier posts because most of her posts have the same general argument when involving me. P.S. You should keep repeating the same general thing and keep your vote in the same spot the entire time, I'm sure eventually the same reasoning over and over again will get people to think I'm scum. By the way, have I ever told you definition of insanity?

And gosh darn it I knew we were perfect for each other. Your comment about Bizz is basically the same thing I said about her. Great minds think so alike. So tell me again, why did you list my comment towards Bizz as being bad when you said basically the same thing? I mean, I feel that "Bizz is being Bizz." And "And you're being Levy. Obv SK." Are pretty much the same general type of statement.

Oh yeah, glad to see someone agree's with me on saying Grass seemed defensive, yet this same person also thinks I'm scum apparently, while agreeing with me on multiple things. Huh.

Well then I guess it's time for my first diagnosis: I propose a Lynch on SB or Eury. Alternative diagnoses would be Grass or Refa. If we absolutely need to we can do a test on Objection but I'd prefer we start treatments for one of the other diagnoses first.

I say we start the town on a quick and direct treatment of:

##Vote: SB

If he doesn't give consent trick him and give it to him the treatment anyway. I mean, all of us have violent instincts. We have evolved from predators. Well, not me of course, I'm just the person trying to hunt all of the things trying to kill us.

[Zkirsche]

Shinori what did you just do?

I apologize that it's affected my posting amount in this thread.

That's fine, let's see what you have in actual content though:

So I was scrounging up what I could based on what posts were there from early D1, which wasn't a whole lot of, but I'll do what I can to refine my thoughts on others in a bit.

This is basically admitting to forcing yourself to have reads.

I don't know if it's just me, but his retort rubbed me the wrong way- has a fairly snide tone in it. Keeping my vote on him for now.

You are voting Shinori for being snide? Really?

I don't particularly care for any of the logic you've used on him. You don't like his GB vote even though your read on GB is the same for the same reasons. You don't like him for not making an RVS vote (which is super graspy reasoning imo) and because he is snide (which is typical Shinori).

Can you comment on anyone else? How do you feel about SB/BBM and their respective wagons?

This is a meta read though.

Why are you undermining your own townread? In the first place, why are you outing your town read?

Also I read your objection! scum read and yes, he is doing basically the same thing as Eury is after we called her out for it, and his Venno vote is terrible upon rereading it. Will be ok to lynch but would prefer Eury because I find the stuff above worse than Objection!.

Elieson bugs me due to their way of running through ED1 complaining about lack of content and doing nothing to generate any of their own.

This is all Elieson ever does ED1 tbf.

@Vhaltz- Coaching isn't always scum-scum. In fact it rarely is because scum can coach scum out of the thread; they have no reason to do it inside. More often you see scum coaching newbtown in-thread because it looks like you're being helpful and stuff, and it also lets you buddy up with a townie whose opinion you can easily influence on account of them being new. But you're not really helping catch scum. Like me in Chilean with Mancer, though I suppose you wouldn't know that game.

Coaching isn't helping to catch scum but it can help others catch scum. Is it really better to just leave the newbtown with their misconception? As long as that person is still scumhunting then it's fine for them to coach others.

I can't believe we're still talking about this in page 8/9.

I don't like how two of Vhaltz's suspicions (Refa and me) go "X is doing this, which is nice but could be faked." It feels like an attempt to ignore the townier things people are doing and only focus on the aspects of their play that he wants to. And nor are there really any reasons presented in either case for why it could be faked, or for whether or not it is more likely to be real or fake. He just sort of handwaves that stuff and then concludes with a suspicion based on other stuff.

How is he ignoring the townier things at all? He's going "Ok there's this, but overall because of <reasons> he's still bad" which clearly shows that he's considering everything you've done. Really do not like this suspicion at all, I feel like BBM would be fine with it if Vhaltz wasn't suspicious of him.

Eury > Objection! > BBM

[Vhaltz]

Practicals ran for a full hour longer than they were scheduled to and now I have a single hour to go through everything, I can't guarantee levelheadedness or sanity for this post.

Shinori are you trying to imply that Prims and SB are scumbuddies? If so, do you think Prims would hard bus SB since ED1 and refuse to let go until there's a huge wagon on him and chances are he'll get lynched?

I mean it doesn't make sense that he'd push him that hard and then go back on it and help him out, if I were Prims hard bussing my buddy I'd stick to that wagon and keep it rolling until lynch and flip to get all the towncred. SB/Prims scumteam seems very unlikely.

Regarding BBM:

@Vhaltz- Coaching isn't always scum-scum. In fact it rarely is because scum can coach scum out of the thread; they have no reason to do it inside. More often you see scum coaching newbtown in-thread because it looks like you're being helpful and stuff, and it also lets you buddy up with a townie whose opinion you can easily influence on account of them being new. But you're not really helping catch scum. Like me in Chilean with Mancer, though I suppose you wouldn't know that game.

I don't like how two of Vhaltz's suspicions (Refa and me) go "X is doing this, which is nice but could be faked." It feels like an attempt to ignore the townier things people are doing and only focus on the aspects of their play that he wants to. And nor are there really any reasons presented in either case for why it could be faked, or for whether or not it is more likely to be real or fake. He just sort of handwaves that stuff and then concludes with a suspicion based on other stuff. Also his SB townread is literally just "since most people are attacking him for the same reason he must be town". Except that is basically the case with most D1 wagons, and D1 wagons can hit scum too.

The coaching thing is exactly as BBM says, except the whole point is that SB seemed to think that the coaching was scum-to-scum at the time, so how does voting one or the other matter from that (albeit wrong) point of view?

Bolded part is hypocritical because BBM is doing the very same thing he is complaining about. Specially when he doesn't seem to have even read my post in reply to SB regarding the underlined part.

It was even pointed out at some point in MotK games that my town play is easy to paint as scummy because my style includes being pretty transparent about my points of view, including waffling on people's alignment, and parts of my stream of consciousness are easy to pick out of context to make them seem scummy. The only difference between last time this happened with Pesco is that Pesco outright quoted stuff out of context, whereas BBM is describing specific parts out of context. Would lynch over Eury and Scorri.

Scorri is a thing, I skimmed her ISO quickly and still read her early play as very convenient for scum. I think my issue with her parroting is still true, and the only one that defended her so far is Prims who I really don't like either so I don't feel like I should be dropping it, but apparently nobody else is really paying any attention to my case. With deadline looming over I figure it's better that I focus on other people for now, and since the issue appears to be lack of active times I figure I'll be able to get a better read later on.

Eury reads a little better now, I'm kind of bugged that he addressed a few qualms that people had about him (her? I'll check everybody's genders properly when night comes) but completely ignored mine, it feels like he completely skipped reading my posts. Either way he elaborated on his issues with Shinori and they don't really amount to a case I can agree with, but I guess I can see why he would've prioritized Shinori over Objection back in his reads post as town. My point about his scumpainting wording still stands, though, so if I had to lynch among him and townreads at the end of D1 I'd still pick him first.

Prims is a thing. He complained about my dislike of Eury whilst ignoring Objection for doing the same when they just aren't doing the same. If Prims had read my post, he would have seen this:

Third is Eury. His only post is a brief reads post, the kind of post that town tends to be happy with and that is useful for scum as appeasement, plus it includes some reads that feel forced and useless null reads that pad it up. Prims already commented on this in a way that implies that Eury probably does this often or something, and I'm completely void of meta on anybody on the site other than SB, BBM and Prims really so idk about that point. Either way, my biggest issue with this post isn't really just that it's a brief reads post with possible appeasement intent, but the way all of the reads are listed. Everything that isn't a null read is worded awkwardly, there's frequent use of the word "weird" in contexts that appear to imply scumminess, which reads like painting people as scummy without having to explain why X or Y they did is scummy.
I was almost 100% sure this was scum when he voted Shinori, because he mentioned Shin among the "contentless" towards the end of the post, and voting that over the ones he thought were "weird" in a scummy way was really scummy. Then I noticed that these were two different people. Blegh.

Either way I'm pretty sure that at the time Shinori was the second major wagon after SB*, so the vote is still very convenient. Specially considering that there's no sense of priority and added reasoning of why Shinori over the rest (his opinion on Objection amounted to pretty much the same, so why Shinori over him specifically?).
*(correct me if I'm wrong, I'm used to having votecounts instead of having to manually track votes)

Eury's post here

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=44672&page=4#entry2784302

Objection's post here

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=44672&page=6#entry2785294

Objection's post has like a single instance of using "weird" in place of "scummy". I don't understand why Prims stuck with just the "reads for appeasement" point of my case and called me out when the core of it was elsewhere, it feels like he was intentionally seeking to downplay my case on Eury and boost his own on Objection by claiming that he is worse. Knowing Prims and his love for WIFOM when it comes to interactions with other players as scum I won't fall into deciphering either of Eury's or Objection's alignment in relation to his but I really fail to see why town!Prims would have any reason to downplay my case like that.

It's not that big of a point but there's a whole bunch of things that bug me now, he replied to my other question but didn't reply to the one regarding why he kept his SB vote over a BBM vote when he was ~Meta Certain~ that BBM was scum. Despite not answering to it he did drop SB and switched his vote right after I called him out on it, and went onto a target other than BBM again even though he elaborated (shortly, I'm sure town!Prims can do better than that) as to why BBM was playing to his scum meta. Then there's also how I'm 99% his miller claim is fake due to the way he commented on miller claims during the last game on MotK, and since SB and BBM also know that he was intending to fakeclaim miller as a PR I feel that it's likely that he did it to get them to think he's town.

I know there's nothing solid in here but there's a lot of weird play coming from Prims this game, and my gut is telling me that he's scum, probably mafia too and not ITP or anything like that.

##Unvote

##Vote: Prims

Priorities are something like this atm

Prims > BBM > Shinori > Eury > Rest > Refa/Kirsche > SB

But the Prims read is kind of nonsolid and nebulous so idk.

Still have most other rereads to do since practicals ate up over half of my free time =/ dunno if anybody is even here at this time of the day due to timezones but I'll be back from classes in a little over four hours. Going over mafia from thread memory last night as I fell asleep Shin's SB vote and vanishing came to mind while not remembering any of his earlier content, so I'll probably look into that.

[BBM]

@Kirsche- except he's not just going "there is this one townie thing but overall he's scummy", he's going "this is townie but it could also be scum" and then he doesn't say why it could be scum. Do you have any evidence that my suspicion is just because he's suspicious of me? I agree with what you said about Eury's Shinori vote though. Being snide isn't being scummy and Eury herself is snide at times too.

Read SB over. Still sort of undecided tbh. I decided to look at some of the cases on him and while I was reading Shinori's last post something about Refa popped out. He went from voting SB in #80 to not even finding him suspicious a few posts later in #138. The only reasons he gives for unvoting are that he likes the Shinori case better. And then in #138 his case on Shin is due to his vote on SB- I don't like how he went from voting SB to voting others for bad cases on SB.

[BBM]

I must have missed the post where you replied to SB. I found it, and it doesn't improve my opinion of you at all because you're like "I don't want to lynch you atm but it's not a surefire townread". If you don't think being wagoned is so townie that you might still vote for him later, then why aren't you attempting to actually see if SB is scummy right now? It also doesn't fit with your stance that at least one scum is attacking SB.

I've also never played with Pesco and I don't think I've seen that meta on you.

Why are you voting Prims over me if your read on him is nonsolid and nebulous? Also most of your case against Prims is sort of bad because:

a) He also said that he expected Miller to claim Miller, so if he actually did roll Miller, he would still claim it. And besides, faking Miller in one of the first few posts of the game if it's not a mod-given fake is pretty risky. If he was planning on faking Miller to hide a PR he would probably wait until more people had posted to increase the chances of not getting CCed.

b) He also didn't state that he was meta certain that I was scum. He said that he thought I was posting like I do when I'm scum, but that's a suspicion just like any other and can be weighed against other suspicions. A meta read doesn't absolutely have to outweigh everything else.

BTW Eclipse, can you put an ISO for Vhaltz?