Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Prims]

Poly would've been a logical target for Kay and Vhaltz has a lot of words saying he's scummy so maybe he's scum who went on the NK?

makes you think

[Prims]

oh wait kay is martyr and not decoy, i cant read.

sorry for spamposting, i'm gay

[The Objection!]

Alright, first of all I would like to apologize for not being a good player like I'm supposed to be.

This was meant to be sarcastic, but I guess nobody got it, oh well.

What is Kaoz doing in this game again?

Also, lol at kirsche's quoting.

Yeah I probably will target Objection after thinking about it.

What exactly did you do Prims?

Serious time:

Reads (let's see if I can get my brain right this time)

BBM wanting to get lynched, just wat? Yes I agree with everyone that it is a bit weird and maybe a scum tell. I never saw a reason to protect Eury aside from her claim and explanations would be nice thank you. Also, yes I'm reading you as scum.

Elie, what is this supposed to be again?

I find eury town and do not support this shit eury wagon

Why? Did you seriously expect to stop a wagon by saying she's town and adding no reason whatsoever? Although this can be justified by the fact that it was very near to deadline... But there's also the fact that it's next to impossible to lynch someone else at the point, any very convincing reasons to not vote Eury, not even for consolidation?

Vennobennu:

Shinori's roleclaim does make me less suspicious of him; not sure how to explain it, but his weird hybrid role doesn't seem like what you would make up to defend yourself. Still, it's pretty convenient how he has claimed a important, possibly unique role about when the votes on him reached their peak. No-one's counterclaimed though, so he's either telling the truth or just made up the role entirely; I don't think that's likely.

If you're less suspicious of Shinori, why are you still voting him? Eury required 9 votes to hammer, and had 7 at the point, surely your vote would have helped avoid a no lynch should hammer was required, no? Did you missed out this detail?

And lastly, SB what is your role? Or if you're not willing to claim, who did you target last night since you gave the impression of not being a vanilla?

##Vote: BBM until I find other stuff.

[BBM]

@Objection - I asked to get lynched over Eury because I thought she was town, and Watcher is a much stronger role than mine. Also because shit cases piss me off and maybe if I get mislynched enough times for no reason other than BBM IS PLAYING TO SCUM META, people will stop doing it.

@Bizz - I didn't mudsling anything. I said that I thought Eury was town, and Shinori and Prims were scum. And even if I was wrong about Eury and my opinion has changed about the other two from the flip, I don't think that anything I said before the flip was untrue.

Thoughts from Eury flip: Shinori, Vhaltz, Prims, Poly, and Scorri are all town, and Kirsche probably is too. Prims argued for the Eury lynch the most, and D1 scum lynches are terrible for the mafia. I remember several games where he's hard defended his buddies near D1 end because of that. And Prims pulls turbos all the time, so nobody would have really found fault with him specifically for that if he'd tried to lead a turbo on someone else. As Prims said, Vhaltz's vote was the one that put her above Shinori originally in votes and I don't think the wagon would have been possible without him. Poly and Scorri also had really critical votes in getting her lynched. Eury pushed Shinori as a counterwagon to herself so I don't think he's scum either. Kirsche was voting Eury all day but that was when she had like 1-2 votes and wasn't really in danger of actually getting lynched. So the townread there is a bit less than the others.

The only vote that was bad in terms of association on the wagon was Bizz's I think, because even though she voted Eury, she was trying to take every chance she could get to get off the wagon. She said at least twice that she'd prefer voting me or Grass over her. And this was with like more than 3 hours before phase end. If she was worried about consolidating or whatever she could have switched back later. So this lowers my townread to more of a nullread.

For now, ##Vote: Objection

The timing of hiis vote feels really opportunistic considering he said almost nothing about me on D1 and "wanted to get lynched instead of Eury" isn't even a scumtell. I'm a way more experienced player than her and have no reason to sac myself for her if she's my buddy. And then even if I was successful, she'd just get lynched the next day anyways because I would obviously have no reason to sac myself for a townie. She'd get one extra day at most, which isn't worth it at all. His suspicion against Venno about "what if hammer was required" is worthless because hammer isn't required, so why does it matter? And his post is like rolefish extreme.

More in the evening.

[BBM]

Oh I missed Vhaltz's post apparently. Don't really have time for a comprehensive response but if your points don't feel solid to yourself that should say something IMO.

[Zkirsche]

I don't like how Objection! is rolefishing SB at the end. SB shouldn't claim unless we collectively decide that he should be lynched and right now there's other targets I'm gunning for.

##Vote:BBM

I'm not voting you because you're playing to your cum meta, I'm voting you because you were awfully hesitant of the Eury wagon and you attempt to smear everyone that has a suspicion of you. (Including Objection! although he's been your most justified suspicion IMO). Also Eury's null read on you:

His last bit of vote changing/reasoning has weirded me out a bit, and I can't say that I'm a fan of watching votes come on and off of me repeatedly. I didn't like his wagon early on, nor did I support a lot of the "BBM (s)cum meta" reads since I didn't see much of it from my PoV. Null read, though was open to changing.

Which reads more scummy than null "Bad voting pattern vs bad case on him" which I don't like.

Eury pushed Shinori as a counterwagon to herself so I don't think he's scum either.

It's entirely possible for scum to desperation bus so I wouldn't be so quick, especially after I reread and found that Shinori was also hesitant about the Eury wagon.

Think I have some stuff from late D1 to address but g2g now. BBM > Objection! > Shinori

[Vhaltz]

Wow that escalated quickly. L-2 I think, be careful not to hammer yet, I've never played a game this big and I need to reread other people.

So I'm back but I was visiting a wastewater treatment plant meaning I really need a shower, I'll be checking the thread while I get lunch but I'll still take a bit to get to rereading.

[scorri]

One quick question: Was anyone else blocked last night? (I do have my reasons for asking this, yes they are important and will help determine my vote)

[Vhaltz]

A few comments on recent posts before I go reread and forget

Also Shin being Insomniac + that off handed comment about Kay which I don't think he'd make considering the NK make me think he's not scum. Which sucks...because I was scumreading him. I guess he could be ITP but it's waaaaaay too early to ITP hunt.

This is bad logic, I've seen scum insomniacs before and having comments on whom the kill is going to be is pretty standard if you don't want people to immediately notice that you talked about everybody in the game other than the nightkill and find you suspicious for it. There's also how Kay was a martyr so she may not have been the intended kill to begin with.

Reads like a poor excuse to get off Shin but idk if dropping everything and flaunting about a lack of scumreads sounds like any good as a scum strategy.

Do you think Shinori is scummy, Refa? why?

@Kirsche, why push Shinori for hesitating on Eury but not Refa, Elieson, Poly and others who did so too? Do you think that there were dual scum wagons D1?

@Prims Has Objection rolefished that blatantly as town before?

@Scorri: I've never seen any instances of doublevoters being roleblocked so I don't know if I'd move back to 1 vote for the phase after being blocked or something, next votecount by Eclipse should clear that up anyhow.

Think I'm not forgetting anything.

[Grassbridger]

@Objection - I asked to get lynched over Eury because I thought she was town, and Watcher is a much stronger role than mine. Also because shit cases piss me off and maybe if I get mislynched enough times for no reason other than BBM IS PLAYING TO SCUM META, people will stop doing it.

So here's the problem with that: in the Fakeclaim Mafia postgame, you told Eclipse that she shouldn't have drawn the lynch toward herself d1 even as a vanilla, because she was a strong player (enough to compensate for a weak role) and it wasn't needed to kickstart discussion.

Eclipse: I think my biggest problem with your play was how you treated yourself on D1. Yes, your role is weaker than everyone else's. However, you should know that you yourself are a stronger player than most other people. And it wasn't like there wasn't any discussion going on D1 either- D1 was pretty active. Offering yourself up as a sacrificial lamb for associative reads isn't smart or necessary.

So yeah that's inconsistent.

ON THE OTHER HAND let's think about if it had worked. If BBM had successfully gotten himself lynched over Eurykins. If they're buddies, then he knows he'll flip scum and then the fact that he essentially offered himself in her place will basically make her next day's lynch target. The only other possibility is that BBM is town. So I'm not buying the scum! BBM thing anymore- he'd have to know that his gambit would fail. So then why do that in the first place?

I'm on my tablet right now so I can't do a good reread, I'll be back to analyze the Eury and Shinori wagons and the end-of-phase dithering later.

[charlie_]

Objection, why are you asking me to claim after Eury spent half the phase rolefishing on me yesterday? With her scumflip it just made me happier to NOT claim. And while I'm addressing that post, I don't think that BBM's willingness to get lynched means much as far as making him scum.

As for the Courier's questions, 6 is obviously yes. I'll answer the rest after I reread and post content about the stuff that happened after I went to sleep last phase. I felt BBM was a bit different from usual last phase, but that doesn't mean he's scum unless he's playing to his scum meta so I guess I need to reread AM/PM or something.

[MRDRHAWK]

Blah blah blah my timezone is ass for Mafia

If you people quickhammer I'll be super-pissed, even if Objection's my #1 scumread ATM

He also posted his thoughts on Shinori's claim in #303 and aside from the dislike of backtracking they really just amount to nothing
http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...age=16#entry2789259
He doesn't explain why he thinks Shinori's claim is coming from scum or why scum would choose to fakeclaim something as specific as that, idk what roles in SF look like normally but the "investigates number of actions on target" part of the role seemed weird and uncommon enough to be genuine. Not sure if I'm properly conveying what I mean here, it just reads like the point to the post wasn't to discuss anything regarding Shinori's claim and he was just focusing on trying to discredit the claim and make it look as bad as possible.

I was expressing my dislike for how his role seemed to work, since it sounded contradictory since, at the time, it looked like Shinori's role was something akin to a doctor. I didn't bother posting after that I actually liked how his role worked, since, if combined with a specific watcher via end-phase co-ordinator, we could find out exactly who we can narrow down through a potential NK.

I also legitimately did want to know if his role altered in certain conditions, since I know Clipsey tends to do that in her games.

Poly didn't strike me as scummy when I was reading up on what I missed, but he defended Eury in his #287 so I just checked his ISO and there's several things bugging me. The way he defends Eury is odd, he calls her null as opposed to out-and-out scum and claims that he is opposed to the lynch, but proceeds to move her up his suspect list at the same time which reads really nonsensical, like scum trying to defend their buddy while simultaneously leaving themselves open for a bus just in case they needed to vote her later to avoid looking bad.
The way he just suddenly dropped Shinori to go after Eury seconds after Shinori posted his last claim update really bugs me as well, I really doubt a 180º readswitch would happen that fast for town considering his earlier post on Shinori. Bizz voted Eury just a few minutes earlier and Prims was defending Shinori's claim at the time so it's possible that scum!Poly just gave up on saving Eury at this point.

What part of "I don't like the turbowagon" amounts to "I think Eury is town"? I just think turbowagons suck in general, and I wasn't 100% sure if she would flip scum at the time. And note that during that post, I said potential scumminess, not outright scumminess. I'd still have rather had an Objection lynch to her, but she flipped scum so w/e.

I was also re-reading her as well, and felt kinda ehhhhhh. She became my 2nd scumread after Shinori's claim, and since the Objection lynch wasn't happening yet, I wasn't going to just park on Shinori and risk mislynching him if his role was legit.

And again, I said my bit about the Shinori claim earlier. I felt a lot more comfortable about it once I learned it wasn't contradictory to the game's nature.

As for other things:

Poly would've been a logical target for Kay and Vhaltz has a lot of words saying he's scummy so maybe he's scum who went on the NK?

makes you think

Is this thinking of me or Vhaltz as possible scum? Can't really tell from here.

And you were roleblocked last night? Hmm... so there's likely a scum hooker, then?

BBM wanting to get lynched, just wat? Yes I agree with everyone that it is a bit weird and maybe a scum tell. I never saw a reason to protect Eury aside from her claim and explanations would be nice thank you. Also, yes I'm reading you as scum.

Maybe he's a town Bomb that he figures will help take out scum? Alternately, he's an Oracle and is hoping to out somebody as scum if he's lynched, so he's thinking of being a tactical sacrifice to get rid of a scummy player.

Eury's claim was probably desperation fakeclaim, since Watcher could've worked well with Shinori's role... except Shinori had a better claim that sounded legit due to him divulging the specifics of how it worked, and he was the other major wagon.

BBM's playing awfully defensive, and it seems like a lot of people are seeing his cum meta in terms of how he's playing. Re-reading his ISO last night, he felt like he was panicky of Eury flipping scum because it may have outed him, but I'm thinking better options are out there for lynching today.

Objection's content still blows ass. Where in the seven hells do you get Elie suspicion from? Are you seriously going to read everyone who didn't like the Eury turbowagon as her scumbuddies? And why are you riding Venno for keeping his vote on Shinori? Maybe he was hesitant to switch off in order to avoid an early hammer so that we had optimal time to figure shit out?

Grass needs to post more, and what he does have content-wise is kinda shit.

Also feel a lot better about Shin in terms of whether or not he's town. Insomniac seems like a dumb role for scum to have (what with their QT and all), and the nightposts were pretty good in terms of analysis and potential points of interest. The NK comment is moot, IMO, since it's usually mere speculation, and I doubt that even if Shin was scum, he would target Kay as opposed to someone who's garnered stronger townreads from others i.e. Bizz.

SB bringing up the Courier is... interesting. Not liking how people still think he's scum, though.

Current priority IMO is Objection >>> BBM >> Grass > Everyone else. Not voting for now since I don't want to put Objection at L-1 at the moment, still feel like we can get some more info out of this phase (namely, if anyone else got blocked or found out some roles for people).

[Percivalé]

The only vote that was bad in terms of association on the wagon was Bizz's I think, because even though she voted Eury, she was trying to take every chance she could get to get off the wagon. She said at least twice that she'd prefer voting me or Grass over her. And this was with like more than 3 hours before phase end. If she was worried about consolidating or whatever she could have switched back later. So this lowers my townread to more of a nullread.

man BBM I'm tired of you waffling on me like this. There were other people on the Eury wagon yesterday who thought she was going to flip town--even YOU did & I don't see what benefit it would have for me as scum to express my favor for the Eury lynch all the way until the last few hours of D1, swerve and then try to start a counterwagon?? At that point I didn't actually think anyone else was going to be lynched (I even said this multiple times specifically) but her last posts were making me change my mind on her being scum because I lack confidence lol. Yeah of course I preferred voting you or Grass over Eury because I thought you two were scummier than her??

Speaking of which, I would also like a Grass lynch today if people want that too.

Kevin, why do you still want to lynch Shinori after all that happened yesterday?

[Percivalé]

This is why Prims's activity on the SB wagon read to me as town because I don't think he as scum would swerve THAT hard on his own scumread, a wagon in which he started too.

[Percivalé]

man I don't want any of this nullread bullshit. You think I am town or you think I am scum. At this point I don't actually have any nullreads on anyone except I'm kind of confused on my read on Poly but I'm leaving to go do things so I don't have time to change that

[Vhaltz]

Not getting Grass' last post, he points out BBM being inconsistent wrt meta but then proceeds to clear him based on faulty logic. BBM saving Eury wouldn't have been useless because it could've gotten Eury to survive past D2 if she got scanned by a cop that night, which would've been pretty likely.

...Although I'm not too sure if a cop would out on an inno to avoid a lynch D2 in a game as big as this. The only time I was cop I sucked at not being obvtown so I'm not very well read on optimal cop strategy.

Kinda want to see what Prims has to say about BBM, he can probably explain things a lot better than I did.

To expand on why Refa's wall mid-deadline bugged me, I feel like it's a much more controlled environment for scum to move in. Not committing to immediate exchanges with other players in the thread at deadline means there's less chances for scum to slip or screw something up while under pressure to reply in a short time window. Feels like something I'd try doing at some point as scum if I absolutely had to be around for deadline.

There's several instances of him defending Eury and vouching for an alternative lynch throughout deadline but he was still doing so by the very end of the day when other lynches just weren't going to plausibly happen so idk. There's a lot more content in his posts and overall I'm not getting vibes that he's hiding scum intent as much as I'm getting them from Poly. I'll be keeping an eye on him but I don't think I'd want to lynch him over BBM or Poly today.

Regarding Poly:

I guess I can see the "potential scumminess" thing but I still think his defense in that wall is stretchy. I mean going "The Eury turbowagon blows" and then trying to play it off like he just disliked the turbowagon and that he wasn't really defending Eury reads like he's just abusing semantics, specially considering that it's inconsistent with how he voiced support for a turbowagon on Objection.

Also I doubt he's been reading the thread properly because there's zero votes on Objection atm, he mentioned him being his top scumread several times so there's like no chance he just happened to mix him up with BBM once.

Still gotta reread Grass, just putting this out there before the post gets any bigger.

[Vhaltz]

Eh actually I may have skimmed Poly's post a bit too much, I'll get to doing that first before I get a repeat of heavy bias from D1

[MRDRHAWK]

Also I doubt he's been reading the thread properly because there's zero votes on Objection atm, he mentioned him being his top scumread several times so there's like no chance he just happened to mix him up with BBM once.

Uh, what? Didn't you note earlier that Objection's at L-2 right now?

If I screwed up reading the votes from last page I apologize. I was more focused on that post though

[MRDRHAWK]

Oh wow I just double-checked and yeah, BBM's the one at L-2

fuck I'm dumb

##Vote: Objection

[Vennobennu]

Looking back on Eurykins's reads...her Kay read is pretty noncommittal and vague, mentioning 'tentative scummy vibes' and not much more. The same pattern of undefined scummy feelings applies to her reads on Shin and Grassbridger. These weak cases make me think that those people are townie (well obvs. Kay is), because Eury couldn't bring up any specific scummy behaviour like she did with eg SB or even Prims.

Same principle applies to her Refa/Poly/BBM townreads - not much justification is there for why they're townie. Admittedly this may be due to to, idk, getting tired of reading everybody just before phase end, but it still is dubious.

Gotta go now, will be back in ~2 hours for more substantial reads.

[Vhaltz]

If I screwed up reading the votes from last page I apologize. I was more focused on that post though

Yeah pretty much.

It's pretty obvious from Prims' post after the one Poly quoted that he just misread Kay's role, so this whole Poly wall reads like he was making a priority out of replying to cases on him and giving out reads to look better, rather than actually hunting for scum (proof of this is that his main suspect remains unchanged and he just slapped the two most disliked players onto his priorities with very little reasoning to it)

To elaborate on that last part, he defends BBM's "lynch me" maneuver with rolespec but then throws him into his suspect list anyway? This irks me pretty badly because his suspicion appears to be coming from nothing other than "defensive play" (which I'm pretty sure people have already discussed as not alignment-indicative by itself when it comes to BBM) and "other people are reading him as close to his scum meta" and that reads like appeasement + attempt at not gathering attention by running against the main wagon of the day, since that would mean having to explain why you don't think he's scummy.

This just got me thinking. I think the actual reason why BBM's defensiveness feels so scummy this game is because he kept throwing some degree of FoS or OMGUS at the people suspecting him (see Kay and Prims). First time I played with BBM I wrote a case on him ED1 and kept it going for most of the day, he was defensive about it and went all self-meta about it and all that jazz, but it was more like he was trying to reason with me than to scold me for being wrong. His defensiveness is different not as much in how he writes his defenses but in how he has been following them up with his vote/actions.

[eclipse]

Votals, D2

BBM (6) - Vhaltz, Bizz, Prims, Objection!, kirsche

Objection! (2) - BBM, Polydeuces

Not voting - The rest of you

Here's the time to phase end~! You've got something like two days, and a bit under 23 hours. Hammer is 8!

Edited November 29, 2013 by eclipse

[Shinori]

I'll get a post up in a bit but the reason I was hesitant partially towards lynching Eury honestly was because of role spec. And we all know that's bad.

Also just so people know, the reason I was so active at the very end of the phase and saying what I was saying was because if anyone had voted me to tie or had unvoted Eury to tie then I would have voted Eury to secure the lynch yet also get a nice bit of valuable information.

[charlie_]

IStill don't support Eury lynch. If someone wants to go for someone other than Shinori, I guess Grass is the best turbo choice? Prims's "I think Eury is town but I support her lynch anyways!" is scummy. The last post where he said that selective effort is scummy is literally the only reasoning he's given for why I'm scummy beyond that I'm posting to my scum meta. He hasn't explained exactly how this is so either. Sadly he is probably not up for lynch today.

I'm honestly inclined to rolespec that Shinori and Eury are both town and Shinori's role is the way it is to stop the OP Doc+Watch combo, but Eury is the better lynch either way because I don't see Shinori or his scumteam making up that claim.

After quickly ISOing Prims, this was the only mention I found of him finding Eury to be town all game? He said she was better than Objection at points but he was the main person pushing Eury towards the end of yesterday anyway so I don't see where he called her town? I don't really like this attack.

Oh I forgot something--did Prims claim something beyond miller? I'm really confused by his "who should I scan tonight", which I also see as a very un-Prims-ish question. Prims (or someone else), can you explain this a bit?

Why are you rolefishing here, and why does it matter if it's "un-Prims-ish?". Didn't I go over in PToE why being different to your general style (not alignment meta, general posting style) is scummy? I don't like this.

This post by Venn doesn't sit right with me. It feels like he's encouraging a turbowagon on someone not named Eury with less than an hour left and says he dislikes Eury's wagon but doesn't really present any counterwagons and I kind of feel like it's scum flailing defending a buddy? He seemed to think that a switch was possible so I wouldn't write it off as impossible.

Poly's latephase actions kind of bugged me a bit? I felt like he was active lurking through phase end in a way, complaining about votals and disagreeing with a Eury wagon which is weird because he kind of suspected her but at the same time was defending her? Doesn't sit right with me, at any rate. I feel like a lot of his content post is rolespeccy but I need to read it in more detail, in kind of a rush atm.

I would like Elieson to explain why he thought the Eury wagon was bad, even if it's invalidated now I'm interested to hear your thought process.

Shin's night content makes me feel a little better about him I suppose? Maybe I'm just less mad about his horrible attacks on me or something, but Insomniac could still be scum so yeah.

Objection's last post bugs me for reasons already stated compounded by the fact that most of his opinions aren't really opinions and tbh I feel like he's just trying to ride the BBM wagon right now.

##Vote: Objection

Vote may change after I reread BBM and Grass after puppy walking. Will also answer Courier's questions then.

[Vennobennu]

This post by Venn doesn't sit right with me. It feels like he's encouraging a turbowagon on someone not named Eury with less than an hour left and says he dislikes Eury's wagon but doesn't really present any counterwagons and I kind of feel like it's scum flailing defending a buddy? He seemed to think that a switch was possible so I wouldn't write it off as impossible.

I wasn't feeling very strongly about the Eurykins wagon at that point; I was leaning town, but at that point I still preferred Shinori, and I didn't want to hammer her in any case. In hindsight, it would've been better go ahead with the Eury lynch than to let a day pass without any lynch, but at the time I was not sure whether she was really scum.

It turned out all right in the end, but you couldn't know that would happen. That was my train of thought last day.

Scorri's lack of activity lately is bothering me. If she's had IRL issues that's fine - it'd be hypocritical of me to complain of that when I've had my activeness affected by it too - but even beyond that, her late D1 posts don't talk about much besides not being sure about Eury and not wanting a Shinori lynch. She doesn't comment on the other players besides that and doesn't provide reasons for why she's unsure about Eury and thinks Shinori is town. This:

Yeah, I don't really want Shinori to be lynched right now. His reactions are reading town to me. If other people aren't agreeing with an SB lynch, I'll read up real quick on Eury and see how I feel there.

Reads like appeasement to me - of just going with the majority opinion. Eury was still at L-3 if I count right, so her lynching was not a foregone conclusion. When scorri does vote for Eury, he doesn't provide any explanation other than 'do not want Shinori to be lynched', which is itself left unexplained. I'm leaning scum here. Could you explain why you thought at the time that Eury might not have been scum and why Shinori definitely wasn't?

Shinori, you say that you were going to vote Eury in case it became necessary for her lynching (paraphrasing here), but you late D1 posts are all about waffling on Eury and putting forward alternative lynches (Grass, BBM, SB). Inconsistent and odd imo.

This post is getting too long, so I thought I'd close for now by wondering: why was Kay lynched? She didn't have much content or scum-hunting to her name; almost everything was about the coaching issue. It makes me wonder if she took a kill that was aimed at somebody else. Can martyrs redirect mafia kills?