Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Vennobennu]

Oh, and can we not hammer BBM now? I do agree with what others have said wrt his defensiveness, but he's not so scummy that it's okay to end the day phase less than twenty-four hours into it.

[Percivalé]

Actually I have to read Kevin's ISO because something about his last post bugged me... and he hasn't been as memorable to begin with. Objection's BBM vote felt thrown in.

I feel like I should be bugged by how fast BBM's wagon grew, but I dunno. Would rather no one else vote him yet though.

[Shinori]

@Veeno: I kinda wanted to see if anyone would actually go for a nolynch because in my eyes that would have been really scummy. Like if elie had randomly appeared and gone "Oh yeah I hate this bandwagon on Eury and tried to tie the votes or something along those lines I would have voted Eury in return and marked up Elie as a scum read. This didn't end up happening though and everything ended fine.

[Vennobennu]

Just noticed

I said that I was leaning town on Eury; that was a typo, I meant to write leaning scum

[Prims]

BBM thought Eury was scummier than Shinori until her claim, then suddenly she's town with no thought process behind the switch, and any explanation to explain why the claim is a null tell is conveniently ignored or used against the attacker. Basically BBM switched from voting Eury to dying for her just because she claimed Watcher.

Look at his ISO. There's no reason for him to think Eury is town after than his mini-case on her other than her claim, which doesn't make up for her play and had nothing to do with her alignment. This is a really clear-cut case and I can't imagine wanting anybody other than BBM lynched today (in fact, if there's a dayvig they should speed things up for us).

BBM would've known nobody would've actually lynched him over Eury because there just wasn't the voting power.

Vhaltz's case on Polydeuces is really solid now that I've read it. I don't trust Grassbridger - Eury was on his list of people who were "weird", then when deadline came around he started acting as if she was town and trying to get people to start quickwagons, which is a passive defense of her.

Martyrs can redirect the mafia kill, yes.

[Percivalé]

Look at his ISO. There's no reason for him to think Eury is town after than his mini-case on her other than her claim, which doesn't make up for her play and had nothing to do with her alignment. This is a really clear-cut case and I can't imagine wanting anybody other than BBM lynched today (in fact, if there's a dayvig they should speed things up for us).

This is another thing that bothers me about BBM because he threw this waffley attack on me regarding my stance on the Eury wagon late in the day and treated me as if I was the only person unsure about it....

[charlie_]

Ugh, don't feel like going over ISOs right now so I'll just answer stuff the Courier questions now.

1. I think BBM is scummy, yeah. Not sure if he's number one priority but he's up there.

2. I'm disregarding Eury's readpost as WIFOM to be honest, she seemed pretty sure she was getting lynched so I don't think she has anything to lose by wifoming.

3. Poly bugs me about the wagon, reasons are a few posts up.

4. Not so much that he didn't want her lynched (inevitably some townie would've thought that way) but the hard defense of her seems kind of suspicious.

5. Objection/BBM>Poly>Grass/Venu>Others

[Refa]

BBM wanting to get lynched, just wat? Yes I agree with everyone that it is a bit weird and maybe a scum tell. I never saw a reason to protect Eury aside from her claim and explanations would be nice thank you. Also, yes I'm reading you as scum.

Eclipse did this as town before, and while I don't agree about preferring to get lynched over another player (as FYPOV you are confirmed town or at least trying to appear as such), "wanting" to get lynched isn't a scum tell.

Elie, what is this supposed to be again?

Why? Did you seriously expect to stop a wagon by saying she's town and adding no reason whatsoever? Although this can be justified by the fact that it was very near to deadline... But there's also the fact that it's next to impossible to lynch someone else at the point, any very convincing reasons to not vote Eury, not even for consolidation?

Vennobennu:

If you're less suspicious of Shinori, why are you still voting him? Eury required 9 votes to hammer, and had 7 at the point, surely your vote would have helped avoid a no lynch should hammer was required, no? Did you missed out this detail?

Wait, I don't get it. Are you suspicious of these people not voting Eury? And considering a hammer isn't required, your comment on Vennobennu makes no sense. I'm not getting scum vibes from these comments, but...it just bothers me how he's complaining about peoples' actions but isn't actually stating whether there's any scum intent in them or not. So actually I lied, I am getting scum vibes from these comments.

And the rolefishing was bad.

@Objection - I asked to get lynched over Eury because I thought she was town, and Watcher is a much stronger role than mine. Also because shit cases piss me off and maybe if I get mislynched enough times for no reason other than BBM IS PLAYING TO SCUM META, people will stop doing it.

I don't get why you'd want to get lynched over her though. I touched on this when I was replying to Objection, but FYPOV noone is more confirmed town than yourself. Wanting to get lynched instead of them just seems like bad play at best.

And as for the rest of BBM's post, I don't think scum would out so many town reads when it POE's them really easily. OTOH, the only person he's scumreading is Objection, which is kind of lazy. But then, I guess I'm not one to complain...

##Vote:BBM

I'm not voting you because you're playing to your cum meta, I'm voting you because you were awfully hesitant of the Eury wagon and you attempt to smear everyone that has a suspicion of you. (Including Objection! although he's been your most justified suspicion IMO). Also Eury's null read on you:

I don't like this logic because I can name at least one case where this isn't true; Prims had been one of the first people to suspect BBM and BBM just said he was reading Prims as town.

This is bad logic, I've seen scum insomniacs before and having comments on whom the kill is going to be is pretty standard if you don't want people to immediately notice that you talked about everybody in the game other than the nightkill and find you suspicious for it. There's also how Kay was a martyr so she may not have been the intended kill to begin with.

Reads like a poor excuse to get off Shin but idk if dropping everything and flaunting about a lack of scumreads sounds like any good as a scum strategy.

Do you think Shinori is scummy, Refa? why?

OK, as far as NK spec, I'll concede that point. However, I still think Insomniac is a pretty weak role for scum; only reason I can see it being there is WIFOM. Also totally didn't think about Kay's role, that's a good point...

Yeah, I do. All of his waffling on Eury and not even voting her despite her being the only viable wagon to him strike me as suspicious. And his explanation for why he did so doesn't appeal to me and seems a bit preemptive considering the only other person who had claimed suspicion of him this day was kirsche.

So here's the problem with that: in the Fakeclaim Mafia postgame, you told Eclipse that she shouldn't have drawn the lynch toward herself d1 even as a vanilla, because she was a strong player (enough to compensate for a weak role) and it wasn't needed to kickstart discussion.

So yeah that's inconsistent.

Oooh, Grass brings up a good point actually. But yeah, like you said, I don't understand how doing that would benefit scum!BBM...

And you were roleblocked last night? Hmm... so there's likely a scum hooker, then?

I don't remember Prims saying he was roleblocked...possible scumslip??

And offhand comments because quote blocks are boring me.

-Yeah, not sure I get BBM's suspicion on Bizz considering noone was particularly gung-ho about a Eury lynch at the time. Seems wierd he lists a bunch of other people voting Eury as leaning town but not Bizz, and IIRC they were one of the primary people who started the wagon?

-Vhaltz, in regard to your read of me, I honestly would've preferred a Shinori lynch at the time and was reading Eury as town.

-I'm not putting much faith into Eurykins' reads atm, honestly. It's just far too much WIFOM for my liking.

-I don't get why scorri voting for Eury when her lynch wasn't a foregone conclusion is scummy (Vennobennu's logic). If anything, it makes me think scorri is more likely to be town, since bussing scum!Godfather makes no sense.

-However, I agree with him on Shinori's actions and how he was really waffling on Eury. I feel like people are dismissing the possibility of him being scum just because he was a counter wagon that day, but it's not like the wagon was made specifically to counter Eury's and there is a possibility that they were both scum.

Objection > Shinori > BBM > Poly >> Everyone Else > Me

##Vote: Objection

[MRDRHAWK]

I don't remember Prims saying he was roleblocked...possible scumslip??

He did, in post #424 where he also voted BBM.

[Refa]

i'm high

[Elieson]

Black friday shopping killed me. Ill have some content up later.

Just a quick quick skim: Who all got courier'd? Shinori and sb?

[MRDRHAWK]

i'm high

you should, like, go get munchies, man.

Also, quick question for the general populace of this game: Does anyone else have a role that can change under certain conditions (that are intentionally not given to you)? I'm curious to know if I'm the only one that got such a role.

[charlie_]

Shinori got courier'd?

Poly stop with the rolefishing.

[Shinori]

Shinori got courier'd?

Poly stop with the rolefishing.

I did?

[Elieson]

I thought I saw you say "responding to courier" or something. Lemme recheck

[Grassbridger]

Ugh just lost a post. Trying to make it up but I gotta go soon.

man I don't want any of this nullread bullshit. You think I am town or you think I am scum. At this point I don't actually have any nullreads on anyone except I'm kind of confused on my read on Poly but I'm leaving to go do things so I don't have time to change that

That's crap, nullreads are valid. I have nullreads on most of the game. You can argue that's because I haven't been doing a very good job scumhunting (true), but also most people haven't done anything memorably scummy or obviously townie.

Not getting Grass' last post, he points out BBM being inconsistent wrt meta but then proceeds to clear him based on faulty logic. BBM saving Eury wouldn't have been useless because it could've gotten Eury to survive past D2 if she got scanned by a cop that night, which would've been pretty likely.

...Although I'm not too sure if a cop would out on an inno to avoid a lynch D2 in a game as big as this. The only time I was cop I sucked at not being obvtown so I'm not very well read on optimal cop strategy.

I hadn't thought all the way through the implications of Godfather, but I know if I was a cop on N1, and there was someone around who looked as scummy as Eury would've (after scum!BBM offered himself in her place), I wouldn't have scanned her. She's the most probable D2 lynch, with or without my interference, and that's very early for me to out myself. I'd scan someone else instead, who would probably be around D3.

On the whole I think it's more likely that BBM is town being inconsistent with his previous opinions than that BBM is scum offering to sacrifice himself for his buddy, the watcher-godfather-janitor (even though that is a very powerful role).

Why are you rolefishing here, and why does it matter if it's "un-Prims-ish?". Didn't I go over in PToE why being different to your general style (not alignment meta, general posting style) is [not] scummy? I don't like this.

ftfy

Anyway, I wasn't rolefishing. I didn't think Prims would have asked "who should I scan" unless he'd already claimed, and I was confused since he claimed miller. tbh I don't remember what significance I attached before to it being "un-Prims-ish", other than drawing my attention.

BBM would've known nobody would've actually lynched him over Eury because there just wasn't the voting power.

Vhaltz's case on Polydeuces is really solid now that I've read it. I don't trust Grassbridger - Eury was on his list of people who were "weird", then when deadline came around he started acting as if she was town and trying to get people to start quickwagons, which is a passive defense of her.

Eury made that list you mentioned for a pretty small reason. I thought her calling Shinori's tone snide was dissonant and worth pointing out, but not something to build a whole case around. Come deadline, I thought her listpost of reads was townie enough, and I also thought that we needed hammer to lynch (Shinori pointed out my mistake) and weren't going to get it for either Shinori or Eury. So I was looking for other lynch options.

I agree with the bolded point, but I dunno if it's a point in BBM's favor or against. Why would scum!BBM defend scum!Eury like this (unless it's for the WIFOM of the argument that I made)?

[scorri]

Reads like appeasement to me - of just going with the majority opinion. Eury was still at L-3 if I count right, so her lynching was not a foregone conclusion. When scorri does vote for Eury, he doesn't provide any explanation other than 'do not want Shinori to be lynched', which is itself left unexplained. I'm leaning scum here. Could you explain why you thought at the time that Eury might not have been scum and why Shinori definitely wasn't?

For me being busy, well lets see. Wednesday I was flying/sleeping most of the day, yesterday was Thanksgiving, today I was out all day. So yes. I'm busy. Second, I'm a girl, I've said that before, I would prefer to not say it again. Third, you quoted my reason for not wanting to lynch Shinori right there. His reactions to getting lynched were reading as town to me, the way he claimed was reading town to me. The reason I thought Eury was scum was largely role spec and really because I didn't have much on the way of scum reads. And question. How does me solidifying a lynch of scum make me scum exactly?

Other reads are still kinda of a mess, I'm sorry. I'm dealing with a bunch of stuff right now and just got home and haven't had a chance to reread the thread. I'll try to do that tonight, but also have a paper to write SO. Yeah. No promises.

BBM: Are you a passive role? (yes, I have a reason for asking this)

[Percivalé]

That's crap, nullreads are valid. I have nullreads on most of the game. You can argue that's because I haven't been doing a very good job scumhunting (true), but also most people haven't done anything memorably scummy or obviously townie.

Eury had a nullread on me ("Bizz is being Bizz") and flipped scum. Also it was mostly directed at BBM anyway, who keeps pushing small reasons that suggest he thinks I'm scum but he's sticking to this whole "what bizz did was scummy. but they're posting like they post as town. oh this was really scummy. I think they are null." really

[Vhaltz]

Forced myself to go do other stuff for a while because I know for a fact I could end up spending literally every hour of the weekend playing mafia and I don't want to end up spamming the thread and have nobody read my posts just because there's too many of them.

I quickly checked Grass' ISO after reading what Prims said about him because it would've been really damning but I'm not seeing it as that bad. I mean he doesn't appear to be calling Eury town until she threw out her last reads walls and that wasn't really a very important junction for the wagons, Eury lynch was pretty much set imo.

The only thing I'm seeing is he might have good chances of flipping scum if BBM does, could elaborate if necessary but it's kind of weak and ~scumteam speculation~

Actually I'm kind of worried that I may be too biased (again) about BBM. I double checked and still think the "lynch me instead plz" posts coupled to the rather arbitrary townread on Eury after the watcher claim and the heavy tendency to OMGUS are scummy enough to warrant a lynch over most of the game, but I'm starting to second-guess myself in a similar way to how I did back in D1 with Prims before I found out I was being dumb, and I think I might prefer a Poly lynch if it gets the support it needs, the defense on Eury is more transient (but there at the critical junction) and much less blatant, which is closer to what I would expect from cautious scum getting their buddy lynched D1. BBM pretty much threw himself off a cliff to defend Eury in comparison.

I'm tired and my thoughts are pretty garbled up right now, I think I'll just sleep on it and see what I think tomorrow, there's been like a gazillion warnings about not quickhammering already so I don't think there's any danger in leaving my vote on BBM for tonight anyway.

[Percivalé]

hey I'm gay lost but where did the courier discussion come from? should I just have to read for it

[charlie_]

Someone courier'd me with questions last night and Eli thought Shinori got messaged too I guess.

[Vhaltz]

Got cut a few times, Scorri if you're having trouble finding time to write actual posts I'd appreciate it if you posted a tentative priority list to get a general idea of what you think of the game.

Going to sleep now but I'd still like to hear what people who aren't SB and Prims think about Poly.

[Percivalé]

Also, quick question for the general populace of this game: Does anyone else have a role that can change under certain conditions (that are intentionally not given to you)? I'm curious to know if I'm the only one that got such a role.

don't really like this since it looks like filler/pseudo-contribution, nevermind the rolefishing. I think I remember Grass rolefishing too but I'd have to reread to confirm.

Scorri's lack of activity lately is bothering me. If she's had IRL issues that's fine - it'd be hypocritical of me to complain of that when I've had my activeness affected by it too - but even beyond that, her late D1 posts don't talk about much besides not being sure about Eury and not wanting a Shinori lynch. She doesn't comment on the other players besides that and doesn't provide reasons for why she's unsure about Eury and thinks Shinori is town.

I don't like this either. Venno's been keen on attacking people for inactivity which doesn't really do much, but he waffles on how he feels about Scorri's activity here which renders it kind of a useless thing to say?

[Percivalé]

I need to reread Poly and Kevin but I'm going to MvM right now so brb.

[Refa]

OK, so looking back, I just realized I was complaining about Shinori waffling when I felt like noone was really sure about the Eury lynch. So I'm going to clarify with some ISO powers why I'm more bothered by him than the other people.

##Vote: Grassbringer

Logic.

OK, this is his first vote. Looks like standard RVS stuff, right? Keep this in mind for later.

You gotta do better than that Eury.

OK, this comment kind of bothers me in light of Eury's flip, but I think it's just more of a gut thing. Just doesn't come across to me as something a townie would say...

My vote on grass is actually semi-serious by the way scorri. Just sayin' And I'm not moving it at the moment because his post in reaction towards Levy seems extremely defensive.

And here he claims his vote was semi-serious despite you know, the explanation for his vote being logic. It's retroactive justification, and I don't like it. Already commented on the later bit and voteparking, so you can go check my ISO for that.

And then his first large post...I'll save you the pain of more quote blocks. He has an awful lot to say to Eury in this post, but the scummiest thing he says that she does is tunneling in on him...which is like, not that strong of a scum tell. And he even mentions how they agree on several reads! Yet he wouldn't mind lynching her or SB (alternates being me or Grassbridger). Keep that last part in mind, it's important for later.

I don't have much reason to say SB over Eury except for partial biasity of his thing against me and partially gut read telling me.

I also didn't like his most recent post WRT Eury. He says in the post that he's "Not to fussed with her" and "There are minor things" But he wouldn't object to her lynch, but he doesn't think she is that bad. And like I said, I don't really like that he doesn't like me. I also still don't really like his first vote and his reaction in the beginning of the game to the whole coaching thing. I mean whatever though, that's me. I'd be willing to consolidate to Eury though if that's what ended up happening. Alternatively I'm fine with Grass also as everyone probably knows.

And here he elaborates on his SB vote. Part of the reason being...that SB doesn't like him, really? Also, right after this post...

SB: Shinori is the vote leader AFAIK. I will punch people if they lynch you without a claim, so.

Prims basically single handedly (?) shut off the SB lynch. So really, Shinori's only options were Eurykins, or his alternative lynches which weren't really garnering much support. And considering Shinori was strongly pushing SB while just FoSing Eurykins, I doubt he was ever planning on lynching Eurykins before Prims did that.

I don't want Eury to be lynched before she states reads. So hopefully she does that before the end of the day.

Another gut thing, but I don't get why he's prompting Eury to give reads. I mean yeah, I did basically the same thing, but I was reading Eury as town. I don't get why he would care, if he actually thought Eury was going to flip scum.

My role is a weird variant of a doctor and watcher.

That's why I said I need time to think and also the reason why I said it wouldn't matter if I claimed.

OK, during my late D1 skim through, I too thought that Shinori's claim made him look townier...However, looking back, it just bothers me more than anything. Here's his first post, where he claims a weird variant of doctor/watcher despite you know, there being no variants of doctor in the game. OK.

I target someone and learn of HOW MANY people targeted that person.

If they get targeted with a kill then I attempt to stop said kill.

So first he watches the person, and then stops kills?

If the player survives the night then I learn of how many people target my target.

If the player is targeted by a killing role then I attempt to stop the killer. Forcing everyone who targeted my target to idle the following night, along with myself.

If it's not an actual doc then the wording is just weird.

Oh, he either watches the person if the person wasn't targetted by a killing role, or stops the killer and forces everyone who targetted his target to idle. And he remarks on how its similar to doc in the very paragraph.

The wording is just weird in my role pm.

So I'm a watcher variant that blocks people who target my target if my target gets killed the following night.

OK now he watches and blocks people who target his target if said target got killed. All of them.

OH.

Okay no I'm not a variant of doc. I just block the killer the following night.

I missed a key word in my role pm.

"IF THE TARGET IS KILLED." I will attempt to stop the killer.

Really weird wording.

How could you get that mixed up with a variant of doc...

And then he waffles on Eury. Like a lot. And announces a suspicion on BBM that I don't believe he's ever stated before. And goes back on his amazing case on Grassbridger. Yet no mention of me, despite saying that he'd be OK with my lynch? I just feel like he's reciprocating Bizz's thoughts. Yeah, I think he's more likely to be scum than Objection.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shinori

General comments, have at you;

-Grassbridger, are you seriously saying noone has done anything obviously townie? Considering scum was lynched just the previous day, I find this rather hard to believe.

-Cop is better off scanning nulls rather than obviously scummy/townie people, who will get more than their fair share of discussion in the following day phase anyways. I wouldn't scan Eury if I was cop (which I'm not).

-Bizz, your logic confuses me. Are you saying people who have a null read on you are scummier because flipped scum had a null read on you? Because the same person had a town read on me, and finding everyone who has a town read on me to be scum would just be :\.