Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Grace]

I strongly dislike vhaltz's play, and despite the mayor role, I still find him to be slightly scummy (more due to semantics though)

mind elaborating on this when you have time? what do you think about the fact around his doublevote enabling eury to be lynched?

[eclipse]

Votals, D2 the third

BBM (1) - kirsche

Grassbridger (2) - BBM, Prims

Objection! (6) - Polydeuces, SB, Shin, Vennobennu, Elieson, Refa

Refa (1) - Manix

Vennobennu (1) - Objection!

Not voting - Shinori, scorri, Vhaltz, Grassbridger

Here's the time to phase end~! You've got about 36 hours remaining. Hammer is 8!

Edited December 1, 2013 by eclipse

[Grassbridger]

1)post in question. from what's there, it reads like "hey this guy is close to lynch, let's force a claim out of him when you mentioned him once back in whichever post that was (on that topic: rvs voteparking is a weak reason to find someone scummy, and then you threw your vote on him in the quoted post, with that being basically the only reason)

[...]

why does this feel like a thinly veiled AtE?

The reason I voted Shinori was that he tried to retroactively justify an RVS vote on me as "semi-serious" for weak reasons and was finding me scummy on extremely spurious basis.

It was supposed to be appeal to logic (you *always* think I'm scummy, so please account for that bias, assuming it exists). Emoticons are bad at logic though.

Also I noticed reading Prims' ISO that he didn't actually lay out the BBM case as well as I remembered. Guess I should have elaborated. Oh well.

More ISOs:

Shin - his content just kind of makes me go "blah". He basically only talks about SB, Eli and Venno, later mixing in some stuff on me and BBM. I'm wondering where Shin's D1 read on Venno went after calling him out during N1 for for "lack of actual activity". His Objection vote is also bad because on D1 he said "Objection's posts are pretty horrible, although from past games this is no indication of alignment." But suddenly his crummy content is votable over someone else with crummy content?

Leaning scum on Shin.

[spoiler=Townreads - Poly scorri Refa Prims]Polydeuces - Probably town. I agree with "townslip" assessment of saying Eury's claim was a flailing fake, and he swung the vote from 7-6 Shinori to 7-6 Eurykins.

scorri - Not much content but voted for Eury, also *things*. Probably town.

Refa - I like his content. He's contributing and actively scumhunting IMO. Leaning town.

Prims - I am getting completely different vibes from him than I got in PToE, when he was scum. (Same as Refa really.) His content seems good. Leaning town.

[spoiler=Nullreads - Eli Venno]Elieson - hasn't really done any scumhunting D2; kirsche called him out for being slow to vote Objection. His D1 content is kind of light too, but I don't think it's that bad. Someone (Prims?) described his play as lackluster or mediocre and I agree with both of those. (NULL)

Vennobennu - My eyes just glaaaze over the walls of text, which is bad because I wall too. The waffle on Eury for a while is not great but could well be just noobtown-honesty-thoughtstream. (NULL)

##Vote: Shin who is apparently my only scumread apart from Objection.

[Grassbridger]

I think my town reasoning is weakest on BBM, Refa, Prims, and scorri. I also think there was at least 1 scum out of the 6 voting Eury (kirsche, Prims, Vhaltz, Bizz, scorri, Polydeuces) but that's not very helpful.

[Grace]

I also think there was at least 1 scum out of the 6 voting Eury (kirsche, Prims, Vhaltz, Bizz, scorri, Polydeuces) but that's not very helpful.

it's not helpful because it's just fluff. suppose the statement is true. suggest a person who you would consider from that group to be scum?

otherwise there's no point in even mentioning it, and i grilled refa about fluffy effort (re his votal post)

[Grace]

speaking of refa i'd like some other opinions on him from others. go nuts

(you *always* think I'm scummy, so please account for that bias, assuming it exists).

i slap people who think i am biased because it's a inconsistent argument which may or may not exist. maybe the people in question are just scummy most of the time (if there's a correlation)

[Prims]

Had a town read on him earlier on, but wouldn't be too sad to see him go right now because the Shinori vote is bad. Scum!Refa is more rigid and mostly responds and talks about facts I think so that has me a little bit hesitant even then.

That said your case on him is ridiculously awful; you just said "this is bad" over and over and there's no clear explanation of what makes him scummier than your other suspects (or anybody at all, really). Don't throw around ITP hunting as a scumtell, doing it isn't scummy, it's context that counts, so why is the way Refa ITP hunted scummy? "I guess he could be ITP" is something I personally say about townreads as town and see other people say as well.

Also the last page is just embarrassing, you're not a person capable of strongarming a lynch onto BBM unless you're a governor (which is weird with Vhaltz's role). I kind of wonder if Bizz was bussing now because I don't think I've ever seen you play this scatterbrained as town before. You need to stop taking incendiary potshots at people either way because that is just not enjoyable to play with and might be half of why I don't like your recent content.

I still feel good about the Grass lynch. Better than I do about lynching BBM at this point.

[Shin]

The reason I voted Shinori was that he tried to retroactively justify an RVS vote on me as "semi-serious" for weak reasons and was finding me scummy on extremely spurious basis.

It was supposed to be appeal to logic (you *always* think I'm scummy, so please account for that bias, assuming it exists). Emoticons are bad at logic though.

Also I noticed reading Prims' ISO that he didn't actually lay out the BBM case as well as I remembered. Guess I should have elaborated. Oh well.

More ISOs:

Shin - his content just kind of makes me go "blah". He basically only talks about SB, Eli and Venno, later mixing in some stuff on me and BBM. I'm wondering where Shin's D1 read on Venno went after calling him out during N1 for for "lack of actual activity". His Objection vote is also bad because on D1 he said "Objection's posts are pretty horrible, although from past games this is no indication of alignment." But suddenly his crummy content is votable over someone else with crummy content?

##Vote: Shin who is apparently my only scumread apart from Objection.

Note: From N1 onwards I acquired a rather lame post restriction, hence my lack of posts.

Blah to you too! I've mentioned tidbits about other players, but I felt that the six aforementioned were more deserving of investigation. Objection's made virtually no solid reads at all or provided any original reasoning. Plus, I feel that his D2 has kinda consolidated that. Most of his "reads" are vague and ambiguous at best, and him just saying that he's happy or not at worst. His fishing for trivial information looks like an attempt to get free info, I don't see how SB's target and role would aid Objection in his investigation at all. Especially considering he had virtually nothing to say about SB.

It'd be nice to see some scumreads from you, Grass! You can't townread everyone! No really, townreads are an amazing way of looking productive... if you're scum!

Venno's still riding the flow, I'd also like to ask where the BBM scumread came from. He didn't ever say anything about him until he declared him his number two read. Considering that BBM had so many votes at the time, it feels like a means of blending in the crowd with a general "I dun like BBM" feel. Still, I don't get BBM's thing, I don't know if scum mayor is really a thing but it sounds kinda dumb. I'm not liking BBM's tone, he's gone from sorta scumhunting to total defense. Along with the reasons I've said before, I'm leaning scum on Brokeback Mountain.

Refa's last big post was finger lickin' good. I'm still a little eh about the SBxColonel dynamics, but his content far outweighs anything I could gather by association. I should look into SB a little more, he's been flying under my radar recently.

Eli's response about Eury's roleclaim works I guess. Although BBM got quite a lot of flak for doing the same.

Le scum: Objection >> Venno=BBM

Kinda eh: SB > Eli > Grass

I dunno really: Everyone else

Townie: Vhaltz > Refa

I shall return... at some point... stoopid post restriction.

[Prims]

Eh after re-reading the last page I'm pretty sure the Manix/Via slot (henceforth referred to as "Mavia") is town anyway but... geez. BBM's reactions were town as fukk too though.

Can we just lynch Grass? The way he sheeped me on BBM to try and get a last minute wagon going was awful, especially given what he said here. Objection's the easy target of the day and still needs to claim and the Refa case is built around D2 actions entirely and not very convincing.

[Grace]

@prims: remember I was writing most of that stuff when i was not actually in the time so yeah it was always gonna be scatterbrained due to how me posting in my quicktopic works

if i wasn't about to disappear for the night i'd make a full-on case for refa

[Grace]

also prims; the itp hunting thing is because it's fake effort: it doesn't help us find scum and it just pads out posts and allows people to mudsling people who are otherwise not scummy

[Grace]

case in point: see the mafia from CY'OR, bar eclipse. that's the exact case in point why it's a thing (pretty sure grass/strege at least mentioned itp hunting, and i'm fairly sure j00 did too)

also you do it as scum too, and far less (if at all) as town. #manixusesmeta2013

[Grace]

more posts because I keep forgetting things

if the answer to this point is "town does it too", note that it's a lot more isolated and only occurs when town is trying to setupspec (which is bad)

[Prims]

I was literally considering saying "I guess Vhaltz could be ITP" earlier in the day. I might have actually done it.

I think it's a shit point regardless since he's not ITP hunting so much as mentioning the possibility, and ITP hunting is only scummy when scum is using it to distract the town from lynching scum. "Universal scumtells" are always bad, kill all generalizations, all people who uses generalizations are trash.

[charlie_]

I don't think Refa is scummy for his Shinori vote tbh, Shinori has bussed D1 before (Kirby comes to mind, might be others) and if he didn't really fight back it might've looked worse on Eury. Don't really agree with the vote but I don't think he's scum for it.

I'm not totally convinced vhaltz is town, since he did leave for the 4 hours before phase end when things were in considerable flux and he may have thought Eury wouldn't get lynched even with his vote, or maybe that Eury would get lynched no matter what, but neither of those seem too likely. Still, there are a lot of contradictions.

From Grass. I don't know what about this bit bugs me but for some reasons alarm bells are setting off. I also find it weird how he's making content about his nullreads just to waffle on then/be neutral on them when I don't think that he was actually asked to do so. He also kind of contradicts himself by setting down a bunch of townreads then saying "but one of them is probably scum". What if it was like Fakeclaim D1 where the scumteam were all off of my wagon?

I don't really know what Eli means by my "meticulousness" and would like him to elaborate. I also don't get what he means by "disliking it is okay but finding it scummy isn't" in the same post (#575).

I'm good with having Grassbridger as an alternative to Objection.

[Vhaltz]

This has little to do with the game but Isaac should tone down on the insults. I've never seen BBM that visibly upset and it feels like the heavy harping on Grass and Refa is running in the same direction. Would probably be inclined to think that it's coming from scum if it weren't because Miria was heavily leaning town.

I like the spoiler formatting though I'm totally using that.

About not being around for deadline: I've mentioned before that I'm in +1 GMT, deadline was at 6-7AM for me and there's absolutely no way I was going to stay up that late. Like even the times I've stayed awake until waaaaaaaaaay too late in MotK games I still went to bed 4AM or so at latest and those were exceptional cases, SB/BBM/Prims and my online times can verify this.

Ftr Mitsuki doesn't really force me to stop playing in the way that it's what she wants me to do, she just keeps an eye on me because I asked her to do so a long time ago, without her around I'd spend much more time playing than I should and my sleeping schedule would be screwed up because of that.

Grass stuff

Unimpressed with Grass' case on me. Aside from the GMT thing, I already explained why I prodvoted late D1 (wasn't seeing Prims/scorri as scum anymore and I thought BBM had a wagon already for some reason -> needed reread but I still wanted to do something useful with my vote) and conveniently forgetting my being a doublevoter so that the vote pattern analysis looks worse is hard to believe as coming from town.

The only other thing he mentions is "contradictions" which is a really easy way to attack my townplay given my tendency to waffle on scumreads that I don't have a specially solid case on, I already mentioned this D1 wrt BBM's attack on me and I was gonna say that it makes it worse but that's meta on me that most of SF doesn't have and I could understand not taking my word for it so w/e.

Still gives the general feeling that Grass is not reading my posts properly though, there's at least three important things he missed (timezone, mayor, explanation for prodvote which was a whole post iirc) and I don't like the vote being based on selectively picking out things from somebody's play and literally not reading the other stuff they've posted, since reads by town are generally built on considering things in relation to the big picture. I'm wary that this could just be a repeat of Poly for the most part but like I mentioned earlier the convenient forgetfulness about mayor part I really don't see coming from town at all.

Actually I'm doing a full reread now and what's I find the most damning aside from that is the way the he immediately switches off of me when people point out my being a mayor. I read all of that this morning and thought that the mayor role invalidating his case was a matter-of-fact thing but apparently I was reading up too fast because it really isn't. His case on my voting pattern seems to be more heavily based on how it went D1 -before- I voted Eury and his point about my disappearing after the Eury vote "perhaps hoping she wouldn't be lynched" doesn't really get torn to shreds that much if I'm mayor instead of having a single vote? He could have just updated his case after that but instead he switched onto Shin which is like major appeasement and I don't see town doing that.

##Vote: Grass

Objection stuff

After rereading him and most of the cases on him I think the only things that bug me are:

- The switch off to Venno from BBM. It isn't scummy per se like I called Elie out on but I was reading the cases on Objection and there's several people that took issue with his vote as opportunistic riding of the BBM wagon. Appeasement.

- He rolefished SB in his first D2 post and that isn't too bad if his claim justifies it but he also rolefished Prims and Kaoz and those are ???

- He brushed off the AtE comment as sarcasm first thing ED2, the way it's there as post opener specifically kind of bugs me because it could've been done as appeasement to stop the people disliking the AtE from wanting to lynch him.

Quite heavily agree with Prims cuts wrt the Miria/Isaac slot. Not really seeing the Refa case either.

Breaking up the post for readability

[Grace]

This has little to do with the game but Isaac should tone down on the insults.

on it chief. i apologized for the insults but the content existing in them i'm definitely not sorry for

proper refa case incoming because it's a thing

[Vhaltz]

Elieson stuff

Went to bed thinking he was town for the defense on Poly but now that I'm thinking straight that doesn't make sense because the primary intent was to draw attention to his own case instead, and that could've come from either alignment.

Still kind of bugs me that he stated the switch off onto Venno like a matter-of-fact scummy thing without explaining the scum intent behind it. I asked him for an explanation for that and he said this

Regarding the underlined, BBM is the counterwagon, and what did Objection do? He hopped off of the BBM wagon, pretty much unexplained, and decided to throw a vote onto an entirely different player that hasn't really been scrutinized to a point of pressure at all.

...which still doesn't explain what the scum intent is, and this argument also applies to my Poly case at that moment actually since I also hopped off the BBM wagon but there's no mention of that.

Can't really say much about his D1 because there's not much to it. The way he bashes SB for disliking Refa's objectively-good-votetrackingcount feels not that good after reading Prims say that Refa's scum meta involves him being rigid and sticking to objective points, but that's it.

kirsche stuff

Pretty unmemorable in general but upon checking the content in his posts it all seems pretty solid. There's a few things that irk me though. His hard defend on me D1 is really unwarranted because no matter how town my first post may have looked to him it's still just a single post to go on to get a read, and I'm pretty sure town would've wanted to see how I responded to the attack myself. He also goes a little overboard with praising me which like I said feels like buddying.

More tonal things include his apology to Prims lateD1 for quote walling. Why does it matter that Prims doesn't like walls? Just post them anyway, I mean this reads like Prims is town and kirsche!scum doesn't want to deliberately antagonize him because it could lead to being scrutinized.

I liked one of his posts D1 because he had similar ideas to mine but I'm not sure how well that tell works in the long run. Want to see more from him given BBM's recent content.

scorri stuff

I hadn't fully looked into her yet today, so I checked her ISO just in case and while there's not much content to her name I'm pretty sure she's town. She voted Eury at the critical junction along with Poly and I don't think scum would claim being roleblocked like that. I can think of only one reason why scum would ask if anybody else was roleblocked and its still a very risky move based on dumb setup spec so yeah.

Shinori stuff

He had better come back with that post sometime soon, I was expecting it to happen while I was asleep but nope. Coasting a bit too much for my liking but if he's town he's probably the only somewhat protective role left after Kay died so yeah don't really want to lynch him today.

Shin stuff

His content at night was okay enough that I didn't feel too much of an urge to reread him over other people, but why the hell would a post restrictor target Shin? Shin reminds me of Zakeri in that he was barely posting in the game to begin with, it'd be absolutely pointless to PR him. Inclined to think that was a BS excuse to coast by the day while other targets get lynched instead.

...Unless this is somehow part of his role but I'm not seeing that either because a town insomniac getting PR'd for the following day if he posts at night doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Don't feel like I can be very exact with my priorities atm, appeasement reads are coming in so often that I'm starting to question if it's even worth using them as a scumtell for this game. So I'll use a different format this time.

- Feel heavily like scum: nobody really

- Lynches I'd be okay with: Grass >> Objection/Shin (not sure among these two)

- Would rather see more before I consider lynching them: Elieson, BBM, kirsche, Shinori. If I absolutely had to lynch within these I'd probably go Elie = BBM > others but I don't feel solid enough about my reads on them that I'd lynch them atm.

- Don't want to lynch: Prims, Refa, Miria/Isaac, SB, scorri, Poly. I could probably sort out priorities here but I doubt it matters.

- ???: Venno. I just checked the playerlist to see if I was forgetting anybody and I completely forgot he existed. I'll read him later because this post has taken hours already and honestly I just want to take a break for a bit.

[BBM]

First off my stomach is hurting a lot so I might not post much today.

@Shin- I've actually scumhunted more over the last 24 hours than the first 24, and been less defensive IMO (discounting right after Manix subbed in) so I'm not sure what you mean? Also even though scum Mayors are a thing sometimes, I've said Vhaltz is a townread from the beginning of D2, so what's the point of bringing up D1 suspicions right now? That Vhaltz suspicion was there for you to comment on during the night, and you didn't say anything about it then despite talking about me. I think that what you said about Objection and Venno is okay though.

wrt Shinori- he does bus, quite a bit, but he's more town based on Eury attacking him than his posts towards her. Also, Shinori doesn't really waffle on his bussing. Shinori needs to post more though; I don't think he's posted for more than 36 hours.

Okay, well, Bizz reread. The reason I was leaving this towards the end was because unlike the other people I was null on, I had actually paid a lot of attention to her posts, and was still unsure. I wanted to get the people whom it'd be easier to come to a conclusion on first, but whatever.

Near the beginning of D1 what made me sort of uncomfortable was that she was finding someone or something new to poke at in like every post. Like looknig through her ISO right now, within the first 24 hours she called out Venno, Grass, Shinori, me, SB, Elie, Paperblade, Poly, and Objection, which is like half the game. But her posting style was like really townie based on meta and she narrowed down later on so I decided it was just her being unsure since it was just RVS/ED1 and she wanted to get reactions and stuff. She then said that later herself, so yeah, that was probably okay. The only blip in her mid D1 is that she really didn't give many reasons for the Grass vote. Other than the ED1 saying the Grass vote was kind of detached, all she said was "this post is so scummy", with no reasoning behind it.

Looking at late D1... ugh. Bizz actually pushes Eury more than I thought she did. I thought she voted just entirely for consolidation but she has one or two posts about why Eury's posts are suspicious before she actually votes. I still don't really like how she kept pushing me and Grass but she's actually still pushing Eury in #211, #270, #277, #337, and #342. Meh. It's not really as bad as I was thinking it was earlier today.

Her D2 is mostly fine. She probably had the best vote on me because I think she actually kept giving reasons, while the other people gave some reasons near the beginning and that was it. And she was the only one to really answer my questions properly. She never really did respond to Grass asking her for more reasons, but I think she subbed out not long after so eh.

Not really up to reading Manix's posts atm but the slot is probably town.

[BBM]

Ugh rethinking and I think I'd actually prefer Grass to Objection. I was looking over Objection's post where he switched away from me and his unvote is bad but it really doesn't make very much sense as scum. I mean, Vhaltz's switch from me to Poly actually swung the wagons from 6-5 in my favour to 5-4 in Objection's favour. Why would he then unvote me and make it 5-3 when I was his main counterwagon? doesn't really make sense. And in fact that unvote directly following the unvote from Vhaltz completely took the momentum away from my wagon and made Prims and to a lesser extent Bizz unvote as well.

So I guess Grass > Objection >> Shin atm.

[Grace]

ty bbm for the read. at some point i'll reread you (prolly tomorrow because lol 4 in the morning) and see if anything changes of my scatterbrained thoughts

refa case still being worked on, it's long as hell

[Grace]

warning for length

[spoiler=refa case]#80 is underwhelming.

Why Objection? IIRC you haven't said anything about him previous to this statement.

A grand total of 24 hours in. And gutreads are also a thing. Reads like trying to subtly defend without making it look that way.

-I don't even get the Shinori votes. Except Paperblade, his reason was totally legit.

again with the subtle defending. where's the reason? it gets better in his #101, where he votes shinori for bad reasons:

Secondly, I don't like his reason for holding it because firstly nothing in Grassbridger's post struck me as extremely defensive, and secondly how is being defensive a scum tell.

because scum don't want to be lynched... hence if they get defensive to where it looks like they are trying to save themselves over scumhunting, it's scummy. good day.

also #101 marks the start of the Shinori Deathtunnel. (there was a period of 2 hours where he had his vote on objection, but that's it until he swapped back in his last post in the thread)

#81 I kinda covered already. there's literally no reason to post detailed votals like that because 1) there's a host and 2) ctrl+f and iso's can tell you exactly where specific people voted anyway. it's filler contribution and made it seem like he was contributing when in fact, it didn't at all.

skipping ahead a bit because his posts in the meantime where actually okay enough. that being said, most of them didn't feel like there was much conviction behind them? best i can try to explain what i'm thinking about those posts

#350 is the next target.

-I think the Eurykin wagon is bad, because she's been known to deathtunnel before as town and honestly it's not bothering me that much.

hindsight being 20/20, this reads like trying to avoid having the godfather lynched by discrediting the wagon itself.

Also she has posted legitimate reads on other people in the meantime, which I feel like people (coughscumcough) have conveniently glanced over.

(bold mine)

basically here refa is implying that there's probably a scum on the wagon, at least that's what i'm thinking. so I note here, who is the scum on the wagon? non-committal effort everywhere

-Eury asking SB for more information on his claim is bad though and she should feel bad (or good, I don't know, it's still bad play though).

and even after the above, there's this. potential distancing for when eury flipped ("hey I thought she was off!")

-Oh, Shinori did claim. Huh...not sure what to think of it. On one hand, there is no doc variant, but I don't see why scum would fakeclaim that, but WiFOM aoiusndudisnado

...followed by refa continuing to votepark him for the rest of the phase, even after he made a case against objection over at #364. #364 also seems self-depreciating and non-committal, fite me

#423 also has the self-depreciating tone (see last paragraph).

Also Shin being Insomniac + that off handed comment about Kay which I don't think he'd make considering the NK make me think he's not scum.

this statement conveniently ignores kay's flip, being martyr. kay was a very unlikely kill target after her little content D1, so it was more likely that she was a successful martyr (rip kay ;-;). ergo, the logic is flawed.

however, let's run with this. say shin isn't scum because of these reasons. my first thought would be "hey, that probably makes him town", not "hey, he could be ITP". add on previously mentioned stuff back in my #586, and that covers that.

I think it'd be worth reading into the people waffling on Eury more than the people who have a definite stance, but considering like mostly everyone was waffling on her this might not be...the best idea overall.

here we go, fun stuff. why would you suggest this, and then not even follow through on it, at all? filler content imo, and not productive.

#458 has this little gem here:

-However, I agree with him on Shinori's actions and how he was really waffling on Eury. I feel like people are dismissing the possibility of him being scum just because he was a counter wagon that day, but it's not like the wagon was made specifically to counter Eury's and there is a possibility that they were both scum.

1) Shinori would have to be stronger than godfather watcher janitor for it to be scum/scum wagons, which I find quite unlikely

2) Ignores all context around shinori's claim

3) fails to realize that shinori was still a viable wagon target as a counter-counter wagon after eury's claim D1 (#488 has the same problem, and I have mentioned this before)

his shinori case in #475 still ignores the obvious points which lead to him being town. worth noting that shinori claimed a weird two-part role whereas the flipped scum only claimed a one part role. makes you wonder (#setupspec #imawful)

shinori's role is a functional doc equivalent to make up for the fact we don't have a fulltime doc.

#512 gives me an excuse to rant about slandering again yay!

Actually I thought of another explanation for this particular point which involves Shinori being ITP.

because no one thought shinori was scummy at all besides him, he basically backracked on his case and said "hey he might be ITP", which I've already had a good ramble about in relation to #423/in my #586. see the points above, they still apply here.

tl;dr: lazy scumhunting, non-committal, no conviction. the only case of his that is remotely memorable is his shinori case and that's because it's Really Bad

can we lynch refa pls?

[Vennobennu]

Some responses:

Venno's still riding the flow, I'd also like to ask where the BBM scumread came from. He didn't ever say anything about him until he declared him his number two read. Considering that BBM had so many votes at the time, it feels like a means of blending in the crowd with a general "I dun like BBM" feel. His

His post #449 has pretty bad logic, claiming that because kirsche voted for Eury early, her staying on the Eury wagon is less townie than the other who voted later; apparently she couldn't switch her vote at any point in D1. Bizz's 'wanting to lynch somebody else' was a sentiment shared by a few other people (Prims, Elie) and I don't see why she specifically is suspicious for that. Not to mention his last post in D1 features him arguing a Prims or Grassbridger lynch in favour of Eury.

He says he wanted to get lynched instead of Eury because she had a stronger role than him, but then in the same post argues that he'd 'obviously' have no reason to sac himself for a townie. His tone in general, especially on D1, didn't feel townie to me. And 'the only thing worse than a D1 lynch for the mafia is consecutive D1/D2 lynches'. That's one of the most unhelpful things you can say. Of course the mafia doesn't like getting lynched, that's how they lose the game.

That's most of why BBM reads pretty scummy to me. His last few posts are a little better, but I'd still be surprised if he flipped town.

On Grass: his #203, in addition to being vague on scum/town reads has him reading vague scum on Shin based off of an unrelated meta comparison to a different game. And then he votes Shin for that, which is even more inexplicable, and I'm pretty sure Shin is town, so this post and vote are scummy. He later 'agrees', with no reasoning, with no lynch for either Shinori or Eury, which after Eury's flip is a little weird. Not scummy by itself (we've gone over the many people unsure about Eury), but still noteworthy. Later he defends Eury because she posted a list of reads, which scum supposedly wouldn't do, even though she was explicitly asked to provide them. Imo it'd be much more scummy for Eury to refuse to give reads, so Grass' point is lost on me.

Add to that his one-liner townreads lately (half of which are entirely meta or "things"), and Grass looks smelly on a reread. Still think Objection! is scummier, though.

Wow this took an hour. This is why I'm not posting as much as I probably should.

[Grace]

i had a dumb thought as I was going to sleep

why would prims be roleblocked over shinori? a claimed miller (who is unlikely to be cop, and rolecop is fairly out of the question due to aligncop GF flip) claiming a scanning role (which is a cop variant)

i honestly don't understand, since shinori was considered very obvtown after eury's flip + protective role

would like some thoughts on this from people

[Grace]

actually scratch that, i just remembered something

this is why i shouldn't be awake at 5am playing mafia