Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Vhaltz]

- ???: Venno. I just checked the playerlist to see if I was forgetting anybody and I completely forgot he existed. I'll read him later because this post has taken hours already and honestly I just want to take a break for a bit.

I just noticed that this was really disrespectful of me, I apologize for that Venno I just really wanted to get that post finished and go do something else for a while =/

[BBM]

I don't think mentioning ITP possibilities is that bad by itself but what I don't get is why in the Shin case, the ITP possibility was a reasoning for Shin possibly still being scum, but then in the Shinori case it was a reasoning for why Shinori isn't scum, where scum means anti-town and not just mafia. Actually the reasoning about Shinori being ITP just doesn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate Refa?

@Vhaltz wrt Shin- idk I don't think the PR thing is that much. People know he doesn't post that often; they're not going to find him scummy just for being inactive that he has to make up a PR or something. Besides, he's not Dormio and this joke is lost on you anyways because IIRC you didn't play in Mirai Nikki.

[MRDRHAWK]

Besides, he's not Dormio and this joke is lost on you anyways because IIRC you didn't play in Mirai Nikki.

DAMMIT SOMEONE BEAT ME TO THAT MAFIA *grumps internally*

@Manix: I'm thinking Refa's town right now; I'm not seeing a ton of holes in his content to this point.

[Grassbridger]

it's not helpful because it's just fluff. suppose the statement is true. suggest a person who you would consider from that group to be scum?

otherwise there's no point in even mentioning it, and i grilled refa about fluffy effort (re his votal post)

Well obviously I thought I had a decent case on Vhaltz. I'm really not happy with how he handwaved away "contradictions", saying "well I waffle on people". First, this is self-meta from someone I've never seen before. Second, that wasn't the point--it wasn't because he waffled on his scumreads or anything like that, it was because he said "voting Shinori would be hammer so I'll leave my vote on BBM" indicating a willingness to lynch Shinori, then offers to consolidate on Objection--a townread at the time--over Shinori, and never mentions Eury until the post where he votes her.

But the reason I actually made this point (about probable scum on the Eury wagon) was that Prims tried to pseudoclear like everyone on the wagon based on that, and I followed that reasoning in my reads and got like everyone as town.

From Grass. I don't know what about this bit bugs me but for some reasons alarm bells are setting off. I also find it weird how he's making content about his nullreads just to waffle on then/be neutral on them when I don't think that he was actually asked to do so. He also kind of contradicts himself by setting down a bunch of townreads then saying "but one of them is probably scum". What if it was like Fakeclaim D1 where the scumteam were all off of my wagon?

I don't think that all of my townreads are correct, and a lot of them are at about the same level. If I live long enough, at some point "he had a townread on X D2" will be used by someone to show an inconsistency with my newly-developed scumread on X, and that will frustrate me because I know not all my townreads are correct.

I also decided to give reads on every single person in the game. No this wasn't asked and maybe to you it looks like padding but I have been giving shit content for the first day-plus so I wanted to get as far as I could without, you know, actually rereading the whole thread.

On Grass: his #203, in addition to being vague on scum/town reads has him reading vague scum on Shin based off of an unrelated meta comparison to a different game. And then he votes Shin for that, which is even more inexplicable, (1) and I'm pretty sure Shin is town, so this post and vote are scummy. (2) He later 'agrees', with no reasoning, with no lynch for either Shinori or Eury, which after Eury's flip is a little weird. Not scummy by itself (we've gone over the many people unsure about Eury), but still noteworthy. (3) Later he defends Eury because she posted a list of reads, which scum supposedly wouldn't do, even though she was explicitly asked to provide them. (4) Imo it'd be much more scummy for Eury to refuse to give reads, so Grass' point is lost on me.

(5) Add to that his one-liner townreads lately (half of which are entirely meta or "things"), and Grass looks smelly on a reread. Still think Objection! is scummier, though.

Wow this took an hour. This is why I'm not posting as much as I probably should.

This post is full of bad.

1. You find me scummy for disagreeing with you? That's bad logic. The vote may have been weak but ffs I WASN'T VOTING SHIN BECAUSE OF WAFFLES. I was voting him for dismissing the Kay coaching thing as a "slapfight" without saying anything more about it.

2. I had unvoted Shinori in a previous post for his claim looking townie, and said in that same post that I was ambivalent to a Eury lynch and voted BBM instead. There's the reasoning.

3. She posted reads on EVERYONE, which was going to a lot of effort, I thought, when she was only asked for her top few reads.

4. In retrospect, she DID refuse at first. I actually found this scummy at the time, as I was reading through the thread, but I was impressed enough by her reads-on-everyone effort that I thought she was probably town.

5. Really? Half? I'm townreading Prims and Refa on meta (more like meta-vibes, really), called them weak townreads, and I've already hinted at the reason for the scorri townread.

Anyway, the worst part of this in my eyes is that as soon as a major wagon developed on me, Venno walks in with opinions on why I'm scummy that are subtly different than everyone else's yet full of bad, then at the end calls Objection! scummier and doesn't do anything.

I should not ignore the rest of the post either:

(1) His post #449 has pretty bad logic, claiming that because kirsche voted for Eury early, her staying on the Eury wagon is less townie than the other who voted later; apparently she couldn't switch her vote at any point in D1. Bizz's 'wanting to lynch somebody else' was a sentiment shared by a few other people (Prims, Elie) and I don't see why she specifically is suspicious for that. Not to mention his last post in D1 features him arguing a Prims or Grassbridger lynch in favour of Eury.

He says he wanted to get lynched instead of Eury because she had a stronger role than him, but then in the same post argues that (2) he'd 'obviously' have no reason to sac himself for a townie. (3) His tone in general, especially on D1, didn't feel townie to me. And 'the only thing worse than a D1 lynch for the mafia is consecutive D1/D2 lynches'. (4) That's one of the most unhelpful things you can say. Of course the mafia doesn't like getting lynched, that's how they lose the game.

That's most of why BBM reads pretty scummy to me. His last few posts are a little better, but I'd still be surprised if he flipped town.

1. Actually his kirsche point is solid, bussing at the start of the day on someone who's not otherwise a target is less likely to result in a lynch than bussing late-day when the buddy is a wagon. But kirsche was pretty hard on Eury the whole day so idk. (kirsche is a guy btw)

2. Blatant misrep. What he actually said was "obviously I don't want to be mislynched." I don't even know how you twisted this one into "sac himself for a townie."

3. This is essentially meaningless.

4. He was actually making a point in context, that a D2 bus was not very likely after a D1 scum lynch.

The last line is distancing, yay.

This post, combined with that waffle on Eury I mentioned earlier (which, at the time, I dismissed as "noobtown-honesty-thoughtstream") makes me think scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: Vennobennu

I will claim if needed, not sure exactly where votals are but I appear to be a major wagon for today.

[Grassbridger]

Oh, and the quote that refers to "he" a lot is referring to BBM. Sorry that that's not right in there.

[BBM]

@Venno- Your whole suspicion is taking lines out of context. "Obviously I have no reason to sac myself for a townie" is a line where I was speaking about a hypothetical where I was mafia. The line about how successive D1/D2 lynches are bad for mafia was a direct response to SB asking why me and Objection didn't make sense as buddies- because otherwise us pushing each other as counterwagons basically guarantees a D2 scum lynch. Also, I still think Kirsche is more likely to be town than scum, but the last time I used this same reasoning, the person ended up being scum, so I'm not quite as sure.

@Grass- You say that the townreads on me/Refa/Prims/Scorri are weak, but these are like half of your townreads so I have to question why you even have them. It feels like padding/forcing reads when you're so unsure of them. People wanted you to up content, but nobody said you had to have a read on every player in the game. Your Vhaltz case tries to explain away something townie (his vote on Eury) rather than actually taking it into account in your read, which is sort of bad. You do admit your explanations are sort of unlikely, but eh. What is your read on Vhaltz overall right now?

Also- you agreed with me just now that a vote when a buddy is already a wagon is much more likely to result in their lynch than a vote at the beginning of the game when they're not. So why was Vhaltz ever a suspicion? Why are Prims and Scorri weaker townreads than Kirsche? It feels inconsistent and reinforces the feeling of you forcing reads.

[Grassbridger]

I think SOMEone was bussing Eury late-ish D1. Vhaltz, Prims and Scorri are all possibilities. Kirsche tunneled Eury all day in a way that didn't come off as bussing to me. My townreads on Prims and Scorri are based on meta vibes and rolespec, respectively, with the Eury votes only playing a medium part in it. Now that you mention it, though, I guess kirsche could have been in that list of weak townreads, which you're right is a lot of them.

The main point of me posting reads on everyone is that I was trying to explain why I was lacking scumreads--it's because most people were doing things I found townie.

Also I think my principal problem here is that I'm really not good at keeping track of this many players.

Read on Vhaltz right now is nullish with a shading towards scum. Was going to mention this earlier but forgot: His response to my case on him isn't good. he claims that I'm selectively picking out things from his play and not reading his posts. That's just not true. How is finding a pattern in literally everything he's done (voting-wise) supposed to be selectively choosing things to support a case? And the thing he claims I didn't read is a post-hoc explanation for something that wasn't an all-that-important part of the case in the first place. I also don't see how timezone is relevant at all--all I was saying is that he wasn't around at phase end to change his vote, so the fact that he was gone due to timezones is completely irrelevant as far as I can tell.

Side note Venno's thing on BBM that BBM just responded to wasn't a misrep in the way I said, I was looking at the wrong post. Venno's logic is still bad for reasons that BBM just pointed out. What BBM was saying in that post is the same as why I'm townreading him--that scum!BBM offering himself up for a buddy would have no effect if successful because Eury would just get lynched the next day.

[Shinori]

Sorry guys I've been sick and under the weather and no feeling the best. I might need to sub out. It's part of the reason I've not been around. Let me see if I can get something done before the end of this day phase, if I can't I'll sub out.

[Vhaltz]

Responding to Grass

it wasn't because he waffled on his scumreads or anything like that, it was because he said "voting Shinori would be hammer so I'll leave my vote on BBM" indicating a willingness to lynch Shinori, then offers to consolidate on Objection--a townread at the time--over Shinori, and never mentions Eury until the post where he votes her.

Not seeing why anything there is an issue or how it constitutes "contradictions". What's absolutely missing to this "problem" is context. Let me go over what happened at deadline while I was there.

Prims had claimed that Shinori was at L-2. I had expressed specific suspicions on Shinori/BBM earlier so wanting to lynch Shinori is not surprising, setting down my vote on BBM instead when I couldn't vote Shinori without hammering and ending the day is also not surprising, and my offer to enable an Objection wagon was limited to an If I really have to that you conveniently left out of the quote. I was already staying up past my bedtime at this point so my main objective was making sure that SB didn't get lynched if Shinori ended up being town from his claim (which I did mention and you skipped entirely).

What I also mentioned that you're ignoring to make "didn't mentioned Eury until he voted her at deadline" look worse is that I said I'd still lynch Eury before Objection and SB in a reply to Prims. The reason I offered to consolidate on Objection over Eury is because, while hindsight is 10/10, she didn't seem like a viable counterwagon at that point, not that many people had expressed suspicion on her compared to Objection and BBM.

Shortly after I posted that Miria, Prims and kirsche were all pushing for an Eury lynch over Shinori with conviction starting at #246, and scorri mentioned checking Eury and not BBM. Moments later BBM fetched a votecount here that made it obvious that the Objection wagon was dead and Eury was now a possibility, and this is when I voted Eury.

The followup on the original case is this:

There's just a ton of contradictory things here. (1)Why aren't you even mentioning Eury at this point, for instance? She's the obvious non-Shinori choice of lynch. (2)If you object to an Objection lynch, you must object much more strongly to a Shinori lynch in order to offer to consolidate on Objection, (3)but you're talking about hammering Shinori. What gives?

1. Like I already mentioned hindsight is 10/10.

2. Not really? The reasoning behind this was there in the very post and line it's in.

3. My talk about hammering Shinori was specifically meant as "I'm voting elsewhere because I don't want to hammer Shinori", so why is it being painted as "I want to hammer Shinori" to make it look scummier?

Voting Shinori would be hammer so I'll leave my vote on BBM just in case his claim is really... cut, okay

How do you screw that up?

Like if your case was "why did he vote Eury instead of Shinori" in my last post at deadline I might be more inclined to think that you were town, since that decision took a while to make and I just didn't care to explain why because I was over two hours past bedtime and likely to get in trouble, but all of the stuff you point out in your case are misreps that are taken out of even the most immediate context (prime example being offering to consolidate on Objection to make sure a not-Shinori lynch wasn't on SB)

I also could've kept my BBM vote instead in hopes of forcing his lynch to happen that way, but that left the risk of SB getting lynched for some godawful reason and waking up to that would've been the dumbest thing.

There's other reasons behind dropping Eury which I hinted at in this post that are kind of personal and related to an incident in a recent game, I'd rather not talk about it if it isn't necessary though. Prims can back me up if I end up doing so.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grass

Restating the vote because I'm confident Grass is just scum BSing now.

I've read up on the other recent posts including the Refa case but honestly I didn't check the links he gave because nothing is really sinking in anymore, I think I just burned out on mafia for today after rereading like half the game at a time. I spent like 5+ hours nonstop on that.

I get the feeling I'm forgetting to reply to something but I'm past bedtime again and blegh.

I checked earlier and deadline is at 18:45 here this time, I will probably be active from waking up to 14:00 but then I have to go to classes until 19:00, if the day hasn't ended before 14:00 for me then I'll try to check the thread what I can when in between lessons.

[Prims]

I hadn't fully looked into her yet today, so I checked her ISO just in case and while there's not much content to her name I'm pretty sure she's town. She voted Eury at the critical junction along with Poly and I don't think scum would claim being roleblocked like that. I can think of only one reason why scum would ask if anybody else was roleblocked and its still a very risky move based on dumb setup spec so yeah.

waaaait scorri claimed roleblocked? I was also roleblocked last night and mentioned this at the start of the day. I tried to target BBM if that helps.

Manix I do not want to read that wall of quotes. Just sum it up with your strongest points; a bunch of nitpicks with somebody's posts aren't convincing as to why they're scum, it just makes me think you want to make them look bad. How was his scumhunting even "lazy" before D2?

Scum probably just blocked me in case there was a protective-equivalent on me.

[Vhaltz]

waaaait scorri claimed roleblocked? I was also roleblocked last night and mentioned this at the start of the day. I tried to target BBM if that helps.

Oh wow I forgot about this, I doublechecked this earlier and her post could go either way. She just asks "if anybody else got roleblocked" which could've referred to somebody other than you or somebody other than you + her.

Also another thing that's really dumb and Grass painted as suspicious is my mentioning my "brain fart" in my last D1 post. I mentioned it in direct relation to Prims and scorri who I 180º switched my reads on not much earlier in the day so this should've been really obvious. Grass isn't reading my posts.

[Vhaltz]

How is it almost 1 AM? fuck.

Later!

[Grace]

Manix I do not want to read that wall of quotes. Just sum it up with your strongest points; a bunch of nitpicks with somebody's posts aren't convincing as to why they're scum, it just makes me think you want to make them look bad. How was his scumhunting even "lazy" before D2?

There's no conviction. He states all these things about other players (namely objection), but continues to votepark shinori and say "ehhhhh I don't know who to lynch" in #350 even though he has a reasonably strong read (fhpov) on objection.

There's a bunch of stuff I already mentioned ages back, including the votal post, which looks like fake effort/etc.

Practically voteparked Shinori for most of the game until his case was proven to be Bad.

Defended eury for meta reasons. (#350) Should explain itself, considering he thought there was a scum on the wagon and didn't provide explanations for who was scum.

Bad Shinori case.

---

I think that covers it.

[Prims]

I can buy this but don't find him as convincing of a lynch as Grass. That might just be bias because I'm already riding one wagon. Mostly though I just have this gut feeling he's town and the lack of confidence is because he's actually having trouble reading people. Scum!Refa doesn't have issues faking conviction as far as I'm aware, and while I don't want to abuse meta it's pretty much subconscious.

[Prims]

I also think there was no reason for scum!Refa to switch off Objection and move to Shinori. I mean, yeah, he could have done it as either alignment, but the fact that he was shuffling his reads around seems like he has an actual thought process and isn't being totally lazy like you're saying.

Basically I understand why you think he's scummy but disagree he's actually scum because of it.

[Grace]

anyway something else I want to mention which I didn't bother this morning at 5am was if i'm right, kay martyr'ed shinori (why else wouldn't shinori be roleblocked?)

hence shinori is very very likely not mafia. just to nail that into the coffin

[Grace]

but the fact that he was shuffling his reads around seems like he has an actual thought process and isn't being totally lazy like you're saying.

it's not exactly laziness. there's effort there, that I won't deny, but it feels like it's trying to not accomplish much in all its effort.

[Prims]

Is this rolespec or just a guess on who she targeted?

[Grace]

i think that covers it better than what I was saying when I actually made the tl;dr of my case whoops

[Grace]

Is this rolespec or just a guess on who she targeted?

A guess; but it makes sense though right? Shinori was fairly townie after the flip, and scum wouldn't kill/roleblock the same person, right? (disclaimer: I don't think the roleblocker is town)

[BBM]

I don't disagree with that but I have to point out the irony of you rolespeccing right now

[Grace]

meh, w/e. i'm using logic based on given facts (kay is a martyr, prims is roleblocked instead of shinori), not trying to guess what there's no basis for (example: eclipse being an ITP!cop in CY'OR)

[Prims]

Scum doesn't have to worry about Shinori's role if they don't target the same person so it could've easily just been a kill on some townie dude like Via or Vhaltz, both of which made more sense for protection.

Shinori, who did you target and what were your results?

[charlie_]

Man I got kind of lazy today.

@Grass, it's okay to be wrong about reads and retract them later based on how the develops, but why would you discredit your townreads right after giving them? It just looks like you don't want to close off certain lynch opportunities. That said I don't think the act of voting Eury at some point makes a person automatically a townie (some of them maybe, but not all) but whatever. Your Shin suspicion looking back is also kind of odd because he's like "you only talked about these three players but also x y and z" so it's not really three players and it just looks like he's trying to make Shin look bad for bad reasons. That said I don't think that his Vhaltz UNvote is scummy because he could easily have been a townie who just made a mistake in that situation, it's null imo.

BBM, why does Levity having a lot of suspicions make her scummy? I did that too in CYOR so I don't think that it's a tell of alignment.

Venn's #598 leaks of misrep though when he talks about BBM not wanting to sac for a townie because BBM said that he wouldn't do that as scum and that's blatantly taking things out of context to make it look bad. The rest of his BBM suspicion is tone (doesn't say how) and the "mafia doesn't want to get lynched" is taken out of context too because he was actually using it as an explanation for something which iirc was a valid point. Him kind of basing his Grass suspicion on a townread of Shin that I don't think he ever even mentioned before is bad too.

Don't want to lynch Refa due to D1 stuff that made me drop him in the first place.

i honestly don't understand, since shinori was considered very obvtown after eury's flip + protective role

[charlie_]

bah somehow my post got cut in half, good thing notepad is op

i honestly don't understand, since shinori was considered very obvtown after eury's flip + protective role